168 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

The Briala story came when they already put the shutters on DA2. It's like they were already rethinking the whole thing then. 

 

It's depressing though. Even if I'm not the biggest "elfy" fan here, it's an injustice to have this character Merrill go through all of that, only to have a city elf unlock the secrets.... and freaking Gaspard and Celene seeing this world before poor Merrill ever did or would.

 

Which is odd considering we've had characters in books who could have been killed off before, like Wynne in Asunder (and she plays a pivotal role in events); Merrill could have done the same with the Eluvian arc. Briala coming to the decision that the Orlesian elves deserve better treatment than what they receive under the status quo could have also been dealt with while tackling this Eluvian story arc with Merrill that deserved to be, at the very least, completed (and not simply ignored).

[Xilizhra]

I think people were really shocked how limited the setting was. I pre-ordered for DA2 and I remember playing day one and being shocked when I realized we were never moving on from Kirkwall or seeing anything else, except for that one trip to the Deep Roads and the occasional jaunt on the beach. Everything in DA2 was pretty limited. I know the early complaints. Besides Legacy, which I remember people reacting pretty well to, though, they didn't manage to build on what they had by much. When they started out rocky and with a lot of disappointment, something like Mark of the Assassin was a massive mistake. 

 

I agree that the story probably would have played out better if they hadn't needed to scramble to make it all work this way, though, and I would have been happy to play this material with DA2's character lineup, which I liked a lot more than Inquisition's. I think Inquisition has done a lot to stabilize the DA franchise, though. As far as I've seen, it's pretty well received. It's at least hope that it's not a continuing nose dive. Hopefully next time won't have to seem so disjointed now that they've gotten the expansion stuff out of the way?

They still need to cover the parts of Inquisition's plot that they didn't finish, so I'm a bit worried.

[straykat]

Which is odd considering we've had characters in books who could have been killed off before, like Wynne in Asunder (and she plays a pivotal role in events); Merrill could have done the same with the Eluvian arc. Briala coming to the decision that the Orlesian elves deserve better treatment than what they receive under the status quo could have also been dealt with while tackling this Eluvian story arc with Merrill that deserved to be, at the very least, completed (and not simply ignored).

 

Honestly, I'm sticking with "I blame the fans".

 

I partly blame Bioware too, for listening and losing confidence in themselves...and always reinventing/thinking of ways to appeal to people who never gave a **** about you to begin with. Last but not least, EA for grubby capitalism.

[vertigomez]

But in a way if Sera's attitude is based off the Dalish that is odd considering she was not likely to have had much contact with them.    Surely her attitude should be based off her experiences as a city elf.    Now may be she just doesn't like the way they knuckle under and put up with the misuse but then you'd think she'd admire the Dalish for their refusal to do so. Sera claims to stand up for all the oppressed little people but what about the city elves?  Back in DAO one of the things that was emphasised was that at least they stood together and helped one another out in the alienages, even if life generally was bad for them all. Isn't that what Sera was all about? Friends sticking together.

That's the thing, though. Sera doesn't feel like they're friends just because they've all got pointed ears. You can definitely argue in favor of solidarity and support, but in Sera's case she's young, angry, and all she knows is that generalizations have isolated and hurt her - Emmald's actions caused her to hate and act out against a human man who did nothing to her, because he supposedly didn't like her 'cause she was an elf, when really he was just an innocent guy and Emmald's actions were based on pride. She feels her race was used to manipulate her. That's why she takes such a hardline "people are people" stance, and it's also why she reacts so strongly against people who don't feel that way, who believe that their race isn't merely incidental but is a vital part of who they are.

I'm not saying it's objectively right, but that's her thought process.

Considering that there are Dalish who mention that the Dalish and the city elves can learn from one another (when the subject of a hypothetical homeland comes up), I don't disagree. Each group certainly has their own perspective.

I concur.
 

You mean from the Ameridan threads? I didn't get that impression from those threads. The criticisms were aimed at Bioware's inability to provide an actual Dalish hero since it seems they are only able to provide Andrastian ones (when it comes to elven characters), which is why examples like Garahel and Ameridan were cited in those threads. The constant Andrastian push was really the focus of the criticism since we only get a Dalish hero when that person is our main character.

I have no idea about Ameridan threads. I mean the BSN and tumblr and fandom in general, who look at certain elf characters and claim they're human with superficial elf characteristics, or who look at Varric and say he somehow doesn't count as a dwarf. Do I want to have an elven companion who grew up in an alienage? Yes. Do I enjoy Merrill and Velanna as Dalish characters? Yes. But I'm bothered by people who seem to think that Fenris and Sera and Zevran don't qualify as having an elven perspective because they didn't grow up in an alienage/aren't Dalish.

[Xilizhra]

I have no idea about Ameridan threads. I mean the BSN and tumblr and fandom in general, who look at certain elf characters and claim they're human with superficial elf characteristics, or who look at Varric and say he somehow doesn't count as a dwarf. Do I want to have an elven companion who grew up in an alienage? Yes. Do I enjoy Merrill and Velanna as Dalish characters? Yes. But I'm bothered by people who seem to think that Fenris and Sera and Zevran don't qualify as having an elven perspective because they didn't grow up in an alienage/aren't Dalish.

I don't see why you expect people to see Sera as having an elven perspective when she herself would furiously deny that she does.

[straykat]

Those non-Dalish elves are heroes for Bioware, because they bridged gaps. 

 

Dalish just don't do this. Especially the average Dalish, who is like Merrill's clan in DA2 or Velanna. They are not ethereal peaceloving hippies from WoW or LotR. They're scary grumps.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I was disappointed we couldn't play a city elf in Inquisition as well as Dalish, because I would have liked to play by both perspectives and see how you were treated by people either way. I really like the perspectives from both sides. I'd like to get more companions of both types in the future, too. I guess Sera isn't really the perspective of a "normal" city elf, though. Not.. necessarily bad? But different. She's had a really privileged life compared to the average elf. I wonder if she doesn't have some internalized guilt about that, since she obsesses a lot about that kind of thing, probably above even the average alienage elf. 

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Those non-Dalish elves are heroes for Bioware, because they bridged gaps. 

 

Dalish just don't do this. Especially the average Dalish, who is like Merrill's clan in DA2 or Velanna. They are not ethereal peaceloving hippies from WoW or LotR. They're scary grumps.

I think there is some unfortunate subcontext in making only Andrastrian or half-ish Andrastrian elves heroes, though. I mean, I don't usually like to jump though "this is like real life" hoops about things that don't exist in real life, but it kind of does say that only by assimilating can they be positive role models. It's kind of icky, to me. Why don't humans have to adopt elven culture and be "bridges"? They can be as purely human as they like and still be heroes. It seems like only one side has to give and Andrastrian culture isn't that super nice, either. Maybe Andraste had good intentions, but the Chantry is mostly a corrupt institution now. 

[vertigomez]

I don't see why you expect people to see Sera as having an elven perspective when she herself would furiously deny that she does.

"I don't really identify as an elf" is just as valid a perspective for an elf to have as identifying strongly with Dalish or alienage culture.

I was disappointed we couldn't play a city elf in Inquisition as well as Dalish, because I would have liked to play by both perspectives and see how you were treated by people either way. I really like the perspectives from both sides. I'd like to get more companions of both types in the future, too. I guess Sera isn't really the perspective of a "normal" city elf, though. Not.. necessarily bad? But different. She's had a really privileged life compared to the average elf. I wonder if she doesn't have some internalized guilt about that, since she obsesses a lot about that kind of thing, probably above even the average alienage elf.

Wouldn't doubt it. She refuses her inheritance on principle.

[Xilizhra]

"I don't really identify as an elf" is just as valid a perspective for an elf to have as identifying strongly with Dalish or alienage culture.

Which is fine, but we've had three companions like that so far and only one who actually did identify strongly as an elf. Give us something different for a change.

[straykat]

I think there is some unfortunate subcontext in making only Andrastrian or half-ish Andrastrian elves heroes, though. I mean, I don't usually like to jump though "this is like real life" hoops about things that don't exist in real life, but it kind of does say that only by assimilating can they be positive role models. It's kind of icky, to me. Why don't humans have to adopt elven culture and be "bridges"? They can be as purely human as they like and still be heroes. It seems like only one side has to give and Andrastrian culture isn't that super nice, either. Maybe Andraste had good intentions, but the Chantry is mostly a corrupt institution now. 

 

But humans do need to do this, I think. At least in my opinion they do... it's why I prefer Divine Leli. She's kind of a step in that direction.

 

This is also why I mentioned Andraste earlier. She wasn't pro-human. Or any specific institution. She was anti-slave (but Pro maker as well, of course). And she made an elf her champion. And from what I can tell, she didn't make any particular demands on him. They were simply of the same mind.

[LobselVith8]

I have no idea about Ameridan threads. I mean the BSN and tumblr and fandom in general, who look at certain elf characters and claim they're human with superficial elf characteristics, or who look at Varric and say he somehow doesn't count as a dwarf.

From what I've read, Varric usually seems to be well-liked by most people. I honestly don't think I've personally read anyone saying that he's not a real dwarf, so I can't comment on that. He's typically one of those characters most groups agree on even when they hardly agree on anything (like mages or templars). I even recall a fan faux cry over the "bearded Varric" mod.

As for elves, I usually read plenty of people on tumblr saying they all get a raw deal. The lack of real rights, the purges, the standard view of them as "less than people" - they were dealt a very bad hand.

Heck, Celene burning down Halamshiral is usually the number one criticism against Celene I've read about, typically along with her treatment of Briala (murdering her parents and fetishizing her).

Do I want to have an elven companion who grew up in an alienage? Yes. Do I enjoy Merrill and Velanna as Dalish characters? Yes. But I'm bothered by people who seem to think that Fenris and Sera and Zevran don't qualify as having an elven perspective because they didn't grow up in an alienage/aren't Dalish.

Sera doesn't like elves, so that's why she gets brought up in certain discussions, but that's usually discussions about a pro-elven companion missing from Inquisition.

I guess we just see different things. When I think of what people have said about those characters, I'm reminded of the 'three elven advisors' pitch a fan did involving Zevran, Merill, and a coffee drinking Fenris who was sick and tired of everyone's ****.

[vertigomez]

Which is fine, but we've had three companions like that so far and only one who actually did identify strongly as an elf. Give us something different for a change.

Like I said, I'd love to have a Shianni-esque character who grew up in the alienage and feels passionate about helping her people, or perhaps an elf like Felassan who has first-hand knowledge of the ancients but still opposes Solas. Those are perspectives we haven't explored. I'd be fine with another Dalish companion - maybe a hunter or warrior to contrast Merrill.

I want to see these things. My problem is with people who dismiss Fenris or Sera's perspective as invalid because they're "not really elves."

[straykat]

Sera doesn't like elfy elves (not elves, period) or longings for the past. I don't like the latter, in real life contexts. In that sense, I totally get her... she just lives mostly in her senses. It has nothing to do with races, and more to do with being bored. And when it comes to Solas' presentation specifically, she antagonizes him because he's a dork.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

But humans do need to do this, I think. At least in my opinion they do... it's why I prefer Divine Leli. She's kind of a step in that direction.

 

This is also why I mentioned Andraste earlier. She wasn't pro-human. Or any specific institution. She was anti-slave (but Pro maker as well, of course). And she made an elf her champion. And from what I can tell, she didn't make any particular demands on him. They were simply of the same mind.

 

I think the difference, though, is that those are examples of humans not really adopting elven culture, but of just allowing elves to be a part of their culture. With elves, the bend is a lot farther. Leliana allows elves in the Chantry at a higher level. She's not adopting their culture at all. She's just agreeing that they should be allowed to be treated equal under her own religion, but not adopting anything from them. On the other hand, the "compromise" for elves is adopting huge parts of human culture into their own identity. It's not just saying humans can also join Dalish clans and worship their way. Humans are becoming more accepting of elves in their own culture, but they're not adopting anything from the elves at all. 

 

But I think a big part of the reason why we only see Andrastian elves is just that the writers haven't figured out any good ways of making them "mainstream" otherwise. With the exception of your own possible PCs, it doesn't seem like humans and Dalish even speak to each other. The only time they do is if the elves have already become Andrastian. Maybe we'll see more change with that as possibilities for something like Wycomb open up. It's really too bad that's a rare world state, because it has a lot of story potential. 

[straykat]

I think the difference, though, is that those are examples of humans not really adopting elven culture, but of just allowing elves to be a part of their culture. With elves, the bend is a lot farther. Leliana allows elves in the Chantry at a higher level. She's not adopting their culture at all. She's just agreeing that they should be allowed to be treated equal under her own religion, but not adopting anything from them. On the other hand, the "compromise" for elves is adopting huge parts of human culture into their own identity. It's not just saying humans can also join Dalish clans and worship their way. Humans are becoming more accepting of elves in their own culture, but they're not adopting anything from the elves at all. 

 

But I think a big part of the reason why we only see Andrastian elves is just that the writers haven't figured out any good ways of making them "mainstream" otherwise. With the exception of your own possible PCs, it doesn't seem like humans and Dalish even speak to each other. The only time they do is if the elves have already become Andrastian. Maybe we'll see more change with that as possibilities for something like Wycomb open up. It's really too bad that's a rare world state, because it has a lot of story potential. 

 

She adopts some of it. Leliana's Song is In Uthenera. The very thing Merrill recites when revitalizing Flemeth. She's a bard first and foremost.. an artist who can see beauty in and borrow from many things. 

[vertigomez]

From what I've read, Varric usually seems to be well-liked by most people. I honestly don't think I've personally read anyone saying that he's not a real dwarf, so I can't comment on that. He's typically one of those characters most groups agree on even when they hardly agree on anything (like mages or templars). I even recall a fan faux cry over the "bearded Varric" mod.

I probably shouldn't have used Varric as an example, because he is very popular and charismatic. It's more about surface dwarves in general and those that reject traditional dwarven culture. "You might as well be playing a short human" was a common line when Cadash was announced as a surface dwarf. And I love traditional dwarven culture (from a storytelling standpoint. I wouldn't want to live there!), but acting like a dwarf isn't a dwarf because they don't represent it strikes me as misguided.

As for elves, I usually read plenty of people on tumblr saying they all get a raw deal. The lack of real rights, the purges, the standard view of them as "less than people" - they were dealt a very bad hand.

I've seen that, too. But I've also seen the other thing, discrediting their point of view.

Heck, Celene burning down Halamshiral is usually the number one criticism against Celene I've read about, typically along with her treatment of Briala (murdering her parents and fetishizing her).

Definitely true. I was horrified when I read that and I hope that most people find her actions abhorrent.

Sera doesn't like elves, so that's why she gets brought up in certain discussions, but that's usually discussions about a pro-elven companion missing from Inquisition.

Sera not liking elven culture gets brought up whether it's relevant or not. It's frustrating. Where's the pro-Vashoth character in the face of Bull's bias? Where's the traditionalist dwarf to contrast Varric? These games espouse a lot of viewpoints, but every game is not going to express every viewpoint.

I guess we just see different things. When I think of what people have said about those characters, I'm reminded of the 'three elven advisors' pitch a fan did involving Zevran, Merill, and a coffee drinking Fenris who was sick and tired of everyone's ****.

Like I said, I see that stuff too. Plenty of people don't dismiss their experiences, I'm just saying that there are people who do.

[straykat]

I still think that about surface dwarves Sorry.

 

It annoys me especially they took that criminal rogue element away from me in DAI by closely tying backstories with races. That's beyond stupid to me. I have to jump through hoops to make a human rogue who isn't lame like Sebastian. 

[Xilizhra]

Sera not liking elven culture gets brought up whether it's relevant or not. It's frustrating. Where's the pro-Vashoth character in the face of Bull's bias? Where's the traditionalist dwarf to contrast Varric? These games espouse a lot of viewpoints, but every game is not going to express every viewpoint.

That viewpoint is necessary in this game that's chock-full of old elven crap (Iron Bull is his own pro-Vashoth character after his story arc, and traditionalist dwarves show up when traditionalist dwarf stuff happens). It's a severe sign of incompetence from Bioware that it wasn't included.

[vertigomez]

I still think that about surface dwarves Sorry.

I disagreeeeeee, they have their own distinct culture. But to each their own.

That viewpoint is necessary in this game that's chock-full of old elven crap (Iron Bull is his own pro-Vashoth character after his story arc, and traditionalist dwarves show up when traditionalist dwarf stuff happens). It's a severe sign of incompetence from Bioware that it wasn't included.

And ancient elves show up when ancient elf stuff happens.

The game showed two extremist points of view - Solas the supremacist, Sera who can't stand "elfy" culture. They could always use more, but that's two distinct points of views more than dwarves or qunari get.

edit: And Bull can only ever be Qunari or Tal-Vashoth. He can never demonstrate what it's like growing up Vashoth, never knowing the Qun at all, surrounded by Southern culture. That's not his story.

[Steelcan]

Those non-Dalish elves are heroes for Bioware, because they bridged gaps. 
 
Dalish just don't do this. Especially the average Dalish, who is like Merrill's clan in DA2 or Velanna. They are not ethereal peaceloving hippies from WoW or LotR. They're scary grumps.

peace living hippies? The Noldor?

Some one hasn't read the Silmarillion

[Xilizhra]

And ancient elves show up when ancient elf stuff happens.

The game showed two extremist points of view - Solas the supremacist, Sera who can't stand "elfy" culture. They could always use more, but that's two distinct points of views more than dwarves or qunari get.

And there was at least four times as much elven content. The given perspective was completely inadequate, especially since one of them is a hackneyed antagonist.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I feel like it makes sense to have more elven perspective in DA:I than dwarves or Qunari, though. When we get closer to Par Vollen and the Qunari are more of a "thing" in the story, I expect we'll see a lot more Qunari perspectives and maybe get a few different characters related to it. This game was VERY focused on elven lore, so it made sense to have multiple elven perspectives relevant to that. It is a little weird to not have a Dalish perspective when this is such a big deal to them. I feel like Sera's perspective is interesting, but this was maybe not the best time for it. That would have been better when an elfy-elven perspective wouldn't have been as relevant to the story, imo.

[straykat]

I disagreeeeeee, they have their own distinct culture. But to each their own.


And ancient elves show up when ancient elf stuff happens.

The game showed two extremist points of view - Solas the supremacist, Sera who can't stand "elfy" culture. They could always use more, but that's two distinct points of views more than dwarves or qunari get.

 

There might be cultural trappings written around it, but that's just fluff. What I care more about are archetypes. The basic rogue archetype for dwarves could have been human (same with mercs and Qunari). And it shut me out of that archetype by tying it to a race. I know you're trying to engender some peace by saying "to each their own", but I'll always be a bit resentful about it. I have a crappy game because of this. While one group gets to enjoy themselves. 

 

If it had been much more dwarven specific and unique, I wouldn't complain. As it is, it's just robbing people of options.

[vertigomez]

And there was at least four times as much elven content.

Okay? Non-humans are still a minority. There are never going to be as many elves or qunari or dwarves in a companion roster as there are humans. Not thrilled about it, but that's statistics for you.

The given perspective was completely inadequate, especially since one of them is a hackneyed antagonist.

Ermmhmmnn... >_____>