168 réponses à ce sujet

[straykat]

I'd say that if you're going to have multiple races you can't simply treat them like reskinned Andrastian humans. I agree that you can't cover everything, but it does feel odd when the dialogue and the scenes are framed as though you're human when you're obviously not.

 

 

There was a vague "it didn't work out" from King Alistair in Kirkwall and no actual explanation given by anyone. Laidlaw simply said on twitter that the Dalish didn't settle the Hinterlands, and that was it. It's honestly the kind of thing I'm surprised didn't come up with the Exalted Council considering that Redcliffe seems to have taken control of the Hinterlands, and the Dalish Boon is part of Bioware's 'default canon' state.

 

I think that's due to fans too It was human only for the longest time, until it got negative feedback.... from people who didn't know anything about the game. They just arbitrarily demanded a multi race feature, knowing nothing else. So we get a quick rethinking in the last year in development. That's not close to ideal. I think this stuff needs to be implemented in the concept stage.

 

But for people who are pretty diehard about these choices, it's good enough. They'll overlook the faults. Bioware knows this too, so they're not going to go the extra mile. People will be happy anyways.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I'm happier with the fact that we got to choose our races than otherwise. I would have been really disappointed if we had to be a human. Having to be the "Herald of Andraste" as part of an Andrastrian group is far from my ideal. I want to at least play a non-human heathen character for the sheer enjoyment of making the Chantry and the Orlesian nobles squirm. It's enough alone, honestly. 

[Arisugawa]

The current state of the world, for better or for worse, is due to Solas' intervention. He's the one that is responsible for the Veil and how it fundamentally altered Thedas. The rise of humanity, the decline of the Elvhen, etc...all of this can largely be traced to his actions.

 

I say this not to justify his attempts to tear the Veil down or that he is right in his belief that it needs to be done. But given the length of time between the creation of the Veil and the current day, one must ask the question:

 

When does the existence of the Veil become the status quo to the point where removing it is considered an evil an opposed to merely returning the world to the way it was before it was split apart?

 

Perhaps the question should be asked differently:

 

At what point after the creation of the Veil is Solas no longer allowed to judge the world with the Veil against the prior world without the Veil with the intent of determining of whether or not the Veil should remain in place?

 

A hundred years after the creation of the Veil?

 

Fifty years?

 

Twenty-five years?

 

After the majority of all living sentients born prior to the Veil's creation have perished?

 

It is an odd circumstance...the world of Thedas that we have seen is not the world that it should have been. It is the world that is, yes, but it is the world that developed in the wake of an artificial division.

 

A science fiction parallel: if time is altered due to the presence of a time-traveler and a new timeline replaces the old, is it considered murder to then erase the new timeline in the hopes of restoring the prior one? Many beings in the new timeline may never been born, after all, or may have lives that are substantially harder or horrific in the original timeline. Or is it simply restoring time to its intended path?

 

It is something to consider, at least. I find it hard to judge Solas for wanting to undo what he feels was a grievous mistake. Which is not to say, were I a resident of Thedas, that I wouldn't do everything in my power to stop him. I would have no desire to endure the coming chaos as the balance between the real world and the Fade realigns. At the same time...if I were a being a long-lived as Solas with a perspective that compares the long-term benefits against the short term chaos, I might be sympathetic to his position.

[straykat]

I'm happier with the fact that we got to choose our races than otherwise. I would have been really disappointed if we had to be a human. Having to be the "Herald of Andraste" as part of an Andrastrian group is far from my ideal. I want to at least play a non-human heathen character for the sheer enjoyment of making the Chantry and the Orlesian nobles squirm. It's enough alone, honestly. 

 

I don't think it was necessarily Andrastian.

 

I don't necessarily care for the Herald story period, but I like when any artist sticks with their ideas. I think they know it best. I'm tired of fans getting in the way.... I don't see this anywhere else. At least not to this extent.

 

Multi-race stories can be cool, but only when they start that way. Plus, there should be room for many games. If you can't cover one subject in one game, there's always time for another.

[Gervaise]

Still there were certain choices that I took only because I was an elf, like letting Briala become shadow Empress.  Knowing the game world I thought the notion ridiculous that it would work but they offered it to me so I took it.   I decided that my guy had made some enquiries about what went on in the rebellion that Celene put down before he attended the ball, since I knew the characters in game give you barely any information, which is why he was prepared to just stand by and let Florianne murder her; he was thinking of all the burning elven children in Halamshiral.   Then in the epilogue when it said the only reason the Orlesian nobles weren't taking action was because they were in awe of the elven Inquisitor and respected the Inquisition, I have to admit gave me a lot of satisfaction.   It even made the attitude of the various parties at the Exalted Council understandable with that plot line.   Of course they feared my elven Inquisitor, even if he had been a saviour of the common people.

 

To my mind there is no earthly reason why another race would take that choice of ruler and it certainly works out better in the epilogue with an elven Inquisitor.

[Lazarillo]

I'm happier with the fact that we got to choose our races than otherwise. I would have been really disappointed if we had to be a human. Having to be the "Herald of Andraste" as part of an Andrastrian group is far from my ideal. I want to at least play a non-human heathen character for the sheer enjoyment of making the Chantry and the Orlesian nobles squirm. It's enough alone, honestly.

On the contrary, I like the idea of a Human Noble Herald of Andraste, because when s/he makes the decisions that cause that squirming, it makes them squirm even more. Take JoH, for example...reveal Ameridan's true past? Oh, well, that's just "because s/he's a vindictive Elf/Mage/Qunari/whatever we can blow off". Do it as a human and it's more "oh crap, people are going to take this nut seriously, what do we do?".

[Ghost Gal]

I'd rather have flawed race selection than none at all.

[straykat]

Quality over Quanity.. that's all I'm trying advocate.

 

Although DAO probably managed both. And it had a better story for it. Wardens are pretty generic (in a good way).

[Gervaise]

Hopefully the next game will have planned for multiple races from the outset, just as DAO did and so will have your different backgrounds dealt with in a more meaningful way.   The main problem with DAI was simply they were an after thought, with only a brief outline to your backstory and the odd bit of dialogue to differentiate between the different races.   It became more meaningful if you played an elf as the plot progressed and the reaction of the nobility at the Winter Palace varied according to your race, but beyond that it didn't really make a lot of difference to how your experienced the game.   

 

It would also have been better if there had been a bit more acknowledgement from companions as to why you might have issues because of your race.    For example, they make you appear a bit of a jerk when Dorian mentions you are a Dalish by commenting sarcastically to him "You mean rather than slave."   Dorian reacts with disapproval, which seems fair enough, except Sera is able to same almost the same thing to him and he is okay with it and seem to think her reaction is reasonable enough.   Then when talking about slavery he suggests that you have no more idea than him what it is like to be poor.   That is pretty patronising to anyone but to a non human Inquisitor it is actually rather insulting that he has so little awareness of what being Dalish/Carta dwarf/Vashoth mercenary might really entail.   I felt that conversation was clearly written for a human noble and no one thought to adjust it for the other races.

 

So here's to different races in the next game, planned from the outset and fully developed.

[silkypumpkin]

So what are your thoughts/ hopes/ concerns on the Solas situation?

 

How do you plan or at least hope to deal with him?  Do you think he can be redeemed? If not, do you think he can be defeated? 

 

Do you think he's right or justified in his plans?  

 

What of the elves flocking to him?  Are they part of Solas's new world? Do you think this will usher in real change for the elves as a whole, or do you have a bad feeling about what this means for contemporary elves?  

 

 

1. Since I romanced Solas in my intial playthrough, and it was my favorite since it feels relevant to the story, I have to believe he is "redeemable".  If anything in that romance was "real" which he says it was, then it seems logical that my Quiz would be able to convince him the current world is every bit as valid as the one he destroyed 1000 years ago or whenever that was.  However, if you are not his friend I don't know how he would be redeemable, unless a new protagonist is his friend, which might be a neat origin for DA4.   

 

2. I don't think his plan is justifiable in any logical way, but i also think he's basically "the maker" and he is "a god".  Think about it, he created this world by dividing the old world in two, which destroyed that world and provided the context for this one.  He did create this world just not intentionally, and now he wants to destroy it, what else is a god but someone who creates and destroys worlds?  I also think he is "the maker" in the Chantry sense, though they're missing all the details he is in fact the one who "made the sky" before humans had memory etc.  So there isn't really "a maker" the way the Chantry believes, but they've basically twisted ancient facts of Solas creating the veil. 

 

3. i think he is using the elves.  he makes a point of saying modern elves are not "his people" and that he doesn't want romanced lavellen to "see what he becomes".  he is inadvertently "the maker" now he's going to be "the destroyer" as well.  I think he's going to use his followers to get it done, how i don't know, and perhaps he will try to save some of them or maybe he will realize as he gets to know them that some of them could be redeemed and that will be how he gives up his plan or changes it.  

 

4. i don't think we'll actually see the veil come down in DA4.  I'm thinking of it more like Game of Thrones, Solas/the veil are the whitewalkers, we've still got to fight some mortal wars before we get that far.  

[silkypumpkin]

Solas differs from Mythal in one crucial way; patience. Mythal used Flemeth and her various daughters over the centuries to subtlety change things in her favour. Solas however wants immediate and drastic change, regardless of the consequences that will happen because of that change.

 

I agree, but I think Mythal/Flemeth knew what Solas' plan was, given the way she acted when she saw him in the epilogue.

[Gervaise]

Flemeth knew what his plan was and that is why what happened in the epilogue cannot be taken at face value.   Flemeth would never submit that easily unless there was something else to it.    This is why I'm convinced that his plan will never work out as he intends.   Flemeth/Mythal has done something that will alter the outcome and probably not in a good way or at least not in a way that Solas would want.

[Lulupab]

I think that's due to fans too It was human only for the longest time, until it got negative feedback.... from people who didn't know anything about the game. They just arbitrarily demanded a multi race feature, knowing nothing else. So we get a quick rethinking in the last year in development. That's not close to ideal. I think this stuff needs to be implemented in the concept stage.

 

But for people who are pretty diehard about these choices, it's good enough. They'll overlook the faults. Bioware knows this too, so they're not going to go the extra mile. People will be happy anyways.

 

I think in that extra year of development they dedicated 11 months to elf Inquisitor and 1 month to Dwarf and Qunari Inquisitor. That's how much thought is put behind each race. Elf Inquisitor makes little sense at first but it starts making more and more as the game progresses and there is actually an explosion when you realize the last Inquisitor was an elf.

[Reznore57]

I think in that extra year of development they dedicated 11 months to elf Inquisitor and 1 month to Dwarf and Qunari Inquisitor. That's how much thought is put behind each race. Elf Inquisitor makes little sense at first but it starts making more and more as the game progresses and there is actually an explosion when you realize the last Inquisitor was an elf.

 

I feel the worst is the Qunari Inquisitor who is not even Qunari.

In DAI there's that one quest about Iron Bull , and a bit in Trespasser...but still what did we learn about Vashoth?

Nothing.

[abnocte]

So what are your thoughts/ hopes/ concerns on the Solas situation?

How do you plan or at least hope to deal with him?  Do you think he can be redeemed? If not, do you think he can be defeated?

If the Inquisitor befriends/romances Solas he "seems" more receptive to be "proven wrong" as he says it, but that is only my impression.

If redeeming him is an option I wonder how the writers will play that out, any new protagonist has no ties to him, knows nothing about him, except may be that he wants to destroy this world in order to restore the elves. So what reasons could possible have a new protagonist to redeem Solas? Why Solas heed his/her plea?


We see only a tip of Solas' power really has in Trespasser, who will be able to kill him? who was able to kill Mythal? I can only think of another Evanuris, and even then Mythal survived.

Solas said it clearly, "The first of my peaple aren't easy to kill"

So what other options do we have? Solas created the Veil to imprison the other Evanuris... I don't think that even if all the mages in Thedas worked together they could achieve something like that...


So, I really look forward to what Bioware has us in store, yet I'm starting to think that the Veil will be torn no matter what unless some bigger threat appears...
 

Do you think he's right or justified in his plans?

He crated the Veil to help his people yet destroyed them because he was unable to fathom the consequences, and I think he is making the same mistake again.

 

What of the elves flocking to him?  Are they part of Solas's new world? Do you think this will usher in real change for the elves as a whole, or do you have a bad feeling about what this means for contemporary elves?

I have a bad feeling, he could not predict how his people would be affected by creating the Veil, so who is to say that the modern elves wouldn't be affected in a similar fashion by tearing the Veil, and thus die?

 

What about magic/mages?  Will everyone become a mage without the Veil?

This is more a complain about gameplay-lore segregation... but, doesn't everybody already has magical abilities?


Warriors:
- Templars drink lyrium that gives them magic-like abilities
- Reavers throught a ritual that includes dragon blood also acquire magic-like abilities
- Champions are the "normal" ones yet "Line in the Sand", as is described in the game, is hard for me to understand as something else but a magic-like ability...


Rogues, Hidden blades from the Assassin tree, hard to explain without magic... I admit that in DA:I they seem more alchemist users though...

So, If the Veil is removed I would prefer if everybody became a potential magic user if only so gameplay-lore segregation would be less glaring.

 

Or is all this moot because no modern Thedosians will be alive if Solas succeeds?

The first time I went through Solas dialogue I didn't get that impression, but as I reviewed it I started to think that would be the case. Then I thought... Wasn't the Breach a tear in the Veil? The only thing that came through were demons... If the Veil is gone wouldn't that lead to a bunch of demons rampant in the world? 

[BloodKaiden]

At what point after the creation of the Veil is Solas no longer allowed to judge the world with the Veil against the prior world without the Veil with the intent of determining of whether or not the Veil should remain in place?

Solas has no right to be judging anything imo, although it is an interesting way to look at the situation at the end of the day Thedas is the world we're living in now. The people currently living in the realm of Thedas are the only 'people' who matter. As cruel or as hard as it might be for Solas to accept, there is nothing that could justify the chaos he plans to unleash on the world by dropping the veil. And for those people who romanced him and are too blind to see how horrific what he intends to do is.

Ask yourself, is the fact that your Lavellan loves Solas justification for the victims who have died so far by his actions and the future ones who will if his plan comes to fruition. Redeemable Solas? That bull shouldn't even be an option. Even if we forgive him and make him see the error of his ways does he deserve to get away with all this? Thedas might have its faults but it's still the present world.

[Arisugawa]

Solas has no right to be judging anything imo, although it is an interesting way to look at the situation at the end of the day Thedas is the world we're living in now. The people currently living in the realm of Thedas are the only 'people' who matter. As cruel or as hard as it might be for Solas to accept, there is nothing that could justify the chaos he plans to unleash on the world by dropping the veil. And for those people who romanced him and are too blind to see how horrific what he intends to do is.

Ask yourself, is the fact that your Lavellan loves Solas justification for the victims who have died so far by his actions and the future ones who will if his plan comes to fruition. Redeemable Solas? That bull shouldn't even be an option. Even if we forgive him and make him see the error of his ways does he deserve to get away with all this? Thedas might have its faults but it's still the present world.

 

For the most part, I agree with everything you said. My post was meant from the perspective of a player judging a character in a work of fiction as opposed to my avatar within the setting. As a player, looking at a character who literally transformed his world in the hopes of making it better, realizing he made a terrible mistake, and then wishing to undo that mistake...that's something I can sit back removed from and ask such questions.

 

As an avatar within the setting, as my Lavellan, as you put it: no, her love for him isn't justification for anything. That's a personal concern for her. She might have issue with some of your declarations. Does Solas deserve to get away with this? She'd probably ask, get away with what? He gave the orb to Corypheus expecting the Magister to die using it, but Solas didn't plan or expect the explosion at the Conclave nor did he expect or plan the rise of the Red Templars & Venatori. He bears some responsibility for what happened, yes, but is all of that blood on his hands? She'd probably say that in this instance, Solas bears roughly the same guilt as Bianca Davri for inadvertently given the Red Lyrium to Corypheus. Intent (the mens rea in a legal sense) must be taken into account. Also, Solas spent a considerable amount of time and effort with the Inquisition trying to bring down what he started - he certainly deserves some mercy for that.

 

But the future damage? What might come to pass? No, she will try to prevent that, even if it means ending him.

[Vindicare175]

Easy. Either we redeem him and turn him from this foolish course of action. or he Dies , He will not be aloud to just destroy the world pretty much on my watch.

[fhs33721]

I feel the worst is the Qunari Inquisitor who is not even Qunari.

In DAI there's that one quest about Iron Bull , and a bit in Trespasser...but still what did we learn about Vashoth?

Nothing.

But what is there to learn about Vashoth? They are just Qunari who life like ordinary people in non-Qun controlled areas. So basically average persons just with horns. There is not much one could learn about them.