72 réponses à ce sujet

[PapaCharlie9]

Creative decisions are rarely arbitrary.

You're right. I was being too kind. I should have said "intentionally manipulative."

[thats1evildude]

You're right. I was being too kind. I should have said "intentionally manipulative."

You say that like it's a bad thing.

But seriously, what drama isn't "manipulative?"

[Xilizhra]

But her change of heart doesn't even have anything to do with her questioning the morality of her cause at all, just a realization that it was impossible to achieve with Coryphues.

Her cause--restoring Tevinter's glory and ending slavery--is a good one. Corypheus was just the wrong way to go about it.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Her cause--restoring Tevinter's glory and ending slavery--is a good one. Corypheus was just the wrong way to go about it.

 

"The Tevinter glory" the Venatori speak of is The Imperium being conquerors again, so no it isn't. And she doesn't abandon Corypheus because he's too evil for her, only because she realizes he's a threat to her cause.

[Xilizhra]

"The Tevinter glory" the Venatori speak of is The Imperium being conquerors again, so no it isn't. And she doesn't abandon Corypheus because he's too evil for her, only because she realizes he's a threat to her cause.

What she says is "If he'd misuse me, he'd misuse them too!" That... basically is his being too evil.

 

And if we're talking about "too evil," Calpernia's at the same level of evil as every damn political leader we've seen in Thedas thus far, in terms of being willing to kill people in the outgroup. Definitely not more evil, and probably less so, than the frequently-fellated Drakon.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

What she says is "If he'd misuse me, he'd misuse them too!" That... basically is his being too evil.

 

And if we're talking about "too evil," Calpernia's at the same level of evil as every damn political leader we've seen in Thedas thus far, in terms of being willing to kill people in the outgroup. Definitely not more evil, and probably less so, than the frequently-fellated Drakon.

 

No, it's basically "He won't actually help me and therefore is no longer useful to my cause."

 

 

Calpernia didn't save the world from darkspawn like Drakon did. Drakon also didn't want to return the world to a time where the Imperium practiced mass blood sacrifices. 

[Xilizhra]

No, it's basically "He won't actually help me and therefore is no longer useful to my cause."

 

 

Calpernia didn't save the world from darkspawn like Drakon did. Drakon also didn't want to return the world to a time where the Imperium practiced mass blood sacrifices. 

There wasn't a Blight at the time. Calpernia was working on saving Thedas from the qunari, who are nearly as damn bad when it comes to rapaciousness. I'm pretty sure she was also against mass blood sacrifices, being as anti-slavery as she was.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

There wasn't a Blight at the time. Calpernia was working on saving Thedas from the qunari, who are nearly as damn bad when it comes to rapaciousness. I'm pretty sure she was also against mass blood sacrifices, being as anti-slavery as she was.

 

I'd say Corypheus is a way worse for Thedas than the Qunari in that regard. But regardless, the Venatori letter says "We neutered our mages at the behest of a foreign religion, exalted their false Maker, and became the laughing stock of all Thedas" and "We will descend with deadly purpose, to spill the blood of the South and make it ripe for conquest." 

 

The Tevinter Mages are already in the highest position of power out of anywhere on the continent. The Chantry's influence on the Imperium has been to curb the use of blood magic from "horrifying excess" down to "widespread abuse." Nowadays, Magisters will just occasionally kill a person to win a duel or impress their friends.

 

The only way the Venatori could possibly consider that "neutered" is if they intend for a return to the old days where huge numbers of people were sacrificed for magical construction projects. Even assuming Calpernia believes she can and will free all slaves, that still suggests the Venatori will want to use somebody to empower themselves with blood magic. Presumably all those southerners they intent to conquer. 

[Xilizhra]

I'd say Corypheus is a way worse for Thedas than the Qunari in that regard. But regardless, the Venatori letter says "We neutered our mages at the behest of a foreign religion, exalted their false Maker, and became the laughing stock of all Thedas" and "We will descend with deadly purpose, to spill the blood of the South and make it ripe for conquest." 

 

The Tevinter Mages are already in the highest position of power out of anywhere on the continent. The Chantry's influence on the Imperium has been to curb the use of blood magic from "horrifying excess" down to "widespread abuse." Nowadays, Magisters will just occasionally kill a person to win a duel or impress their friends.

 

The only way the Venatori could possibly consider that "neutered" is if they intend for a return to the old days where huge numbers of people were sacrificed for magical construction projects. Even assuming Calpernia believes she can and will free all slaves, that still suggests the Venatori will want to use somebody to empower themselves with blood magic. Presumably all those southerners they intent to conquer. 

Keep in mind that very few of the Venatori appear to be members of the upper class, and most aren't even mages. The only two we see are Alexius, who has a personal agenda, and Erimond, who appears to be a true believer and/or raging egotist intending to rub up against Corypheus' godhood. The Venatori will not, generally, have been the types of people to be able to spill rivers of blood. Additionally, "neutered" is in the past tense; just because the mages slid back into power later doesn't mean that Tevinter wasn't forced to do so, in the name of a foreign religion. It's raging at humiliation, not calling for social upheaval. And "spill the blood of the South" is clearly used in the context of infiltration and sabotage to "make it ripe for conquest," not in the context of mass blood sacrifice.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It sounds like a call for social upheaval to me. The very next line is "Now we have a chance to reclaim what is rightfully ours, but only if we act."

 

I didn't even mean that "spill the blood" was a line about blood sacrifice. But implication was still that the south should be conquered, and I would doubt very much those subjugated peoples would be safe from the non neutered version of Tevinter mages, even in Calpernia's vision for the future.

[Xilizhra]

It sounds like a call for social upheaval to me. The very next line is "Now we have a chance to reclaim what is rightfully ours, but only if we act."

 

I didn't even mean that "spill the blood" was a line about blood sacrifice. But implication was still that the south should be conquered, and I would doubt very much those subjugated peoples would be safe from the non neutered version of Tevinter mages, even in Calpernia's vision for the future.

But not specifically to un-neuter mages; rather, it's more of a call to reverse Tevinter's general decline. And keep in mind that part of the deal would be that Corypheus would be an attentive god watching over Thedas; it's probable that Calpernia thought that any death that happened in the meantime would be worth it in the end. Notably, had Corypheus' original plan worked, the south would never have needed to be fought at all.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

But not specifically to un-neuter mages; rather, it's more of a call to reverse Tevinter's general decline. And keep in mind that part of the deal would be that Corypheus would be an attentive god watching over Thedas; it's probable that Calpernia thought that any death that happened in the meantime would be worth it in the end. Notably, had Corypheus' original plan worked, the south would never have needed to be fought at all.

 

The paragraph reads like the decline of Tevinter, exultation of the Maker and neutering of mages are all one and the same. Also "Spilling the blood of the south and making it ripe for conquest" carries with it a pretty obvious connotation that the south should and will be conquered. She's still a Tevinter supremacist, she doesn't care about victims of Tevinter imperialism. 

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Uh, most people? Corypheus' enemies probably vastly outnumber his allies. And many of his servants were manipulated against their will into serving him, like most of the Red Templars and the Grey Wardens. And I don't think that being one of his loyal followers is something that is easily forgiven in Thedas. I know my Inquisitors harshly judged or will harshly judge Denam, Florienne, Alexius, Samson and Erimond, for instance. 

 

How do his enemies vastly outnumber his allies when he starts out with almost your whole army and you have to spend the whole game getting them over on your side? If that were true, the game would have been pretty short. Haven isn't even worth attacking until you take at least some of his followers back. His enemies only vastly outnumber his allies at the end of the game, but by then Calpernia is also one of his enemies. If you read the short story and the compare with the in-game content, though, I don't believe she really understands the full extent of what Corypheus is and what he plans to do. She thinks he'll free the slaves and make Tevinter as impressive as it was in it's height, or at least her idealized version of that. I doubt she believes that's going to look like the future as we see it where Corypheus survives. I doubt any of his followers get the real story, but some definitely have more sympathetic reasons than others for following. 

[Xilizhra]

The paragraph reads like the decline of Tevinter, exultation of the Maker and neutering of mages are all one and the same. Also "Spilling the blood of the south and making it ripe for conquest" carries with it a pretty obvious connotation that the south should and will be conquered. She's still a Tevinter supremacist, she doesn't care about victims of Tevinter imperialism. 

Not only did Calpernia not write the letter, she might not even have been brought into the Venatori when it was written (I also disagree with you about everything being one issue). Also, the language she uses in the conversation at the Temple of Mythal implies that while Tevinter would be the greatest nation on Thedas, it would still be separate, as opposed to just absorbing the rest of Thedas into itself; she uses the phrase "a beacon for all," among others. Ultimately, nowhere in Calpernia's content is it stated that conquering Thedas and destroying every other nation was part of her plan.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I just don't think I can believe Calpernia could become the leader of (or high ranking figure in) the Venatori and Corypheus' most important servant while somehow not buying into most of their ideology. 

[Xilizhra]

I just don't think I can believe Calpernia could become the leader (or high ranking figure in) the Venatori and Corypheus' most important servant while somehow not buying into most of their ideology. 

Well, Inquisition isn't the most consistently written game in the universe. But she isn't used in operations in southern Thedas at all unless Samson's Vesselization process fails, so it's quite possible Corypheus was keeping her in the dark for some time.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I just don't think I can believe Calpernia could become the leader (or high ranking figure in) the Venatori and Corypheus' most important servant while somehow not buying into most of their ideology. 

Honestly, I have a hard time believing Corypheus managed to convince everyone from Tevinter slaves, to city elves, to human commoners and nobles alike, to the grey wardens, mages and templars alike, to a willing demon army from the Fade, etc, to all follow him under false pretenses. I feel like the game asks a lot of suspension of disbelief on how persuasive and deceptive Corypheus is. Considering how far his reach was, I'm pretty much just left assuming the answer must be "crazy immortal magic" and leaving it at that.

[Andromelek]

It's not unusual. Nazi Germany had enemies that vastly outnumbered their allies yet it took years for those enemies to get to working together and years more to defeat their common enemy.

And part of their defeat were Hitler's own mistakes as well, he disregarded many of his Generals' advices, and even executed one of his best, he attacked Russia and stubbornly ordered to attack Stalingrad, even when it would been a more logical target go after Leningrad and ignoring that the Soviets were retreating to use the exact same damned tactic that they used against the French centuries before.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Look, there was nothing ambiguous about my HoF killing Leliana dead when she objected to defiling the Sacred Ashes, and yet she came back to life (albeit with a McGuffin the size of a nuggalope). And nothing ambiguous about the Divine getting blown to bits, but she came back as a special effect, like Obi-wan Kenobi. So, yeah, you can't count anyone out. Except the HoF, I suppose.

"Use the Force Fade, Luke Inquisitor !"

[Gervaise]

The fact that we see so many different branches of Corypheus' forces, headed up by different people, suggests that not everyone was on board with the entire agenda.   Why was Erimond in charge of corrupting the Wardens?   You'd think such an important mission would have been entrusted to Calpernia, unless Corypheus realised she might not approve of an army of demons marching across Thedas.    I think she also rose much quicker than she might have done because of the activities of the two mage killers.   They were hired by the Archon to take out the most important figures in the Venatori.   Calpernia survived because her former boyfriend was one of the contract killers but the rest were killed as per the contract.   What people particularly seemed to want was a god who actually took an active interest in the world rather than the absent Maker.

 

Whatever were the ideals on which she was recruited to the Venatori, at the end in the Temple of Mythal her stated intentions are for Tevinter to be "A crafter of wonders" and a "beacon of hope against the savage Qunari", neither of which seem indicative of world subjugation.   She also wants all people of Tevinter, including slaves, to reach their true potential.   That is a really radical idea and flies in the face of every ruling class in Thedas where you have your status in life according to your birth class, not your ability.   Even in Ferelden, that prides itself on being different, Eamon thought it more important to have someone of the Calenhad bloodline on the throne regardless of their suitability for that role.    Her principle objection to the ruling Altus is that they are trading off their ancestors reputation while their country slips into slow decline, putting it in real danger of conquest by hostile forces.   She despises the Magister who uses the blood of others to augment his power because he has so little true ability.

 

The thing is, if you let Calpernia go free, Dorian approves.   He even says that "Tevinter could do with more like her."    So either Dorian is a naïve fool or he actually believes that what she says is genuine and commendable.  

[fdrty]

Honestly, I have a hard time believing Corypheus managed to convince everyone from Tevinter slaves, to city elves, to human commoners and nobles alike, to the grey wardens, mages and templars alike, to a willing demon army from the Fade, etc, to all follow him under false pretenses. I feel like the game asks a lot of suspension of disbelief on how persuasive and deceptive Corypheus is. Considering how far his reach was, I'm pretty much just left assuming the answer must be "crazy immortal magic" and leaving it at that.

I consider Corypheus and his followers to be like Voldemort and his death eaters - clearly there are the true fanatics, like Bellatrix, but there are also those who follow out of fear, or a desire for power, while not truly buying into everything he says ideologically.

 

Or, to put it another way, when you are an immortal eons-old legendary magister, you don't have to work very hard to convince people to follow you - they'll do it just to avoid your wrath. Which is why it's a notable distinction that Calpernia does not come freely to Corypheus, like, say, Florianne De Chalons, or Livius Erimond - and so I don't consider her to be as evil as those two, who were born into immense privilege yet did evil acts out of a desire for even more power - Calpernia was born a slave and wanted to end the injustice while restoring her country to what it could be.

 

The fact that we see so many different branches of Corypheus' forces, headed up by different people, suggests that not everyone was on board with the entire agenda.   Why was Erimond in charge of corrupting the Wardens?   You'd think such an important mission would have been entrusted to Calpernia, unless Corypheus realised she might not approve of an army of demons marching across Thedas.    I think she also rose much quicker than she might have done because of the activities of the two mage killers.   They were hired by the Archon to take out the most important figures in the Venatori.   Calpernia survived because her former boyfriend was one of the contract killers but the rest were killed as per the contract.   What people particularly seemed to want was a god who actually took an active interest in the world rather than the absent Maker.

 

Whatever were the ideals on which she was recruited to the Venatori, at the end in the Temple of Mythal her stated intentions are for Tevinter to be "A crafter of wonders" and a "beacon of hope against the savage Qunari", neither of which seem indicative of world subjugation.   She also wants all people of Tevinter, including slaves, to reach their true potential.   That is a really radical idea and flies in the face of every ruling class in Thedas where you have your status in life according to your birth class, not your ability.   Even in Ferelden, that prides itself on being different, Eamon thought it more important to have someone of the Calenhad bloodline on the throne regardless of their suitability for that role.    Her principle objection to the ruling Altus is that they are trading off their ancestors reputation while their country slips into slow decline, putting it in real danger of conquest by hostile forces.   She despises the Magister who uses the blood of others to augment his power because he has so little true ability.

 

The thing is, if you let Calpernia go free, Dorian approves.   He even says that "Tevinter could do with more like her."    So either Dorian is a naïve fool or he actually believes that what she says is genuine and commendable.  

 

This is the truth. Calpernia was someone who was born into a bad position, who had her noble ideals twisted by a manipulative leader who gave her the first taste of freedom she'd ever had.

 

I mean, manipulation is Corypheus' MO. conscription of the mages, manipulation of the Wardens, using red lyrium and an envy demon to corrupt the Templars. And, guess what? When the truth is revealed, his followers always desert him. Because he isn't what he appeared to be.

 

It is not, by any means, a stretch to suggest that he lied to Calpernia too. It would be less plausible to think that she knew everything (bar the magic cage stuff) because he never told any of his followers everything, even his most trusted lieutenants.

 

Calpernia was not present in the Western Approach, where Corypheus was enacting his demon army plan. She was not in western Orlais, because that's where her master was locked away.

[Patricia08]

 

Is she dead or not?

If she is not dead will Bioware one day stop with the ambiguous deaths which is something they seem to apply at random?

 

 

Nope most definitely not i'l bet she will be back. 

[Aren]

She is not dead,if Bioware care to make a cinematic for an ambiguos death it means they want to reuse the character.