60 Antworten in diesem Thema

[Qun00]

The Darkspawn Chronicles DLC and the In Hushed Whispers quest show that the world would actually end without the presence of the HoF and the Inquisitor.

However, I feel like the events of DA2 would've changed very little if Hawke had been killed by darkspawn in Lothering.

Let's start with the Qunari invasion. While the Arishok was a formidable opponent, I find it hard to believe that literally no one else in Kirkwall could've defeated him. And then we have the fight between mages and templars: We all know that Anders would have blown up the Chantry and set things in motion with or without Hawke.

At best, the Champion reduced the number of casualties by stopping Meredith and Orsino. But in the grand scheme of things that matters little as I'm sure that these nutjobs wouldn't go unpunished.

They would be removed from their jobs and then arrested or executed.

[GoldenGail3]

No. 

 

[Catilina]

No. Hawke does not matter owerall.

[Pasquale1234]

Thedas needed someone to loose red lyrium and Corypheus on the world, and Hawke drew the short straw.

[Ghost Gal]

Short answer: No.

[straykat]

There might've been more about Hawke if the writers were allowed to complete it, but no...

 

At this point, I think Hawke's value is just as a critic. Our eyes on big issues in the world. But maybe not our hands.

[Vanilka]

Didn't they say the Circles rebelled one by one inspired by Hawke's actions?

 

I strongly dislike BW's advertising from back in the day, claiming Hawke was to be the most important person in (history of) Thedas or whatever, because I believe absolutely nobody should be regarded that highly. (That's more than an awful amount of player ego stroking right there.) I'm glad they didn't go that way in the end. However, I don't think Hawke was completely powerless and invisible.

[straykat]

Didn't they say the Circles rebelled one by one inspired by Hawke's actions?

 

I strongly dislike BW's advertising from back in the day, claiming Hawke was to be the most important person in (history of) Thedas or whatever, because I believe absolutely nobody should be regarded that highly. (That's more than an awful amount of player ego stroking right there.) I'm glad they didn't go that way in the end. However, I don't think Hawke was completely powerless and invisible.

 

I get the feeling they might've played a part in the Inquisition at some point. Then that "importance" would've finally been justified.

 

Look at some of their earliest concepts... there's something seeker or inquisition like to the design.

 

Spoiler

[Catilina]

Didn't they say the Circles rebelled one by one inspired by Hawke's actions?

 

I strongly dislike BW's advertising from back in the day, claiming Hawke was to be the most important person in (history of) Thedas or whatever, because I believe absolutely nobody should be regarded that highly. (That's more than an awful amount of player ego stroking right there.) However, I don't think Hawke was completely powerless and invisible.

No. Anders came to Kirkwall without him/her, and if Hawke do not help him, he even blew the Chantry. Meredith was crazy enough without Hawke too. The red lírium came from the expedition, but the expedition was organized by Bartrand, not by Hawke. I think, Hawke did not matter (too much). 

 

(Ofc, s/he did matter: Fenris received his freedom maybe easier, than without him/her, Corypheus freed easyer with Hawke's active help – perhaps this is not a big glory..., etc.)

 

This is why I leave him alive in the Inquisition. It was already enough crap in his life.

Bearbeitet von Catilina, 10 Juli 2016 - 07:01 .

[Vanilka]

I get the feeling they might've played a part in the Inquisition at some point. Then that "importance" would've finally been justified.

 

Look at some of their earliest concepts... there's something seeker or inquisition like to the design.

 

Spoiler

 

Well, my Hawke was left in the Fade to stop Cory's demon army, so there's that.

 

That concept art looks so emo. Beware the Dark Knight Hawke. You're right, though, that the design looks... "Inquisitiony".

 

No. Anders came to Kirkwall without him/her, and if Hawke do not help him, he even blew the Chantry. Meredith was crazy enough without Hawke too. The red lírium came from the expedition, but the expedition was organized by Bartrand, not by Hawke. I think, Hawke did not matter (too much). 

 

Well, couldn't we theorise like that about everything...? If Anders had gone after Alrik alone, he might've never got out of there alive, then the explosion never happens, the annulment goes quietly as usual and nobody important ever learns of it, etc. Somebody else could've handled the Arishok... or die trying and the qunari would have taken over the city and then Kirkwall would've been done for good. We don't really know how it would've all gone if Hawke hadn't been there and can't prove one way or another. It's interesting to ponder, though, because it's not so clear as it is with the Warden and Inquisitor.

 

I'm not saying you're not right, though. I'm not terribly fixated on Hawke being important, either way. I was wondering, though.

[straykat]

Well, my Hawke was left in the Fade to stop Cory's demon army, so there's that.

 

That concept art looks so emo. Beware the Dark Knight Hawke. You're right, though, that the design looks... "Inquisitiony".

 

Well, their basic description for Hawke concepts was "biker mage". Although their final rendition got the biker mage thing down best.

[Vanilka]

(Ofc, s/he did matter: Fenris received his freedom maybe easier, than without him/her, Corypheus freed easyer with Hawke's active help – perhaps this is not a big glory..., etc.)

 

This is how I like to look at it, to be honest. There'd have been a lot more corpses and misery around without Hawke. To me that means they mattered.

[Catilina]

Well, my Hawke was left in the Fade to stop Cory's demon army, so there's that.

 

That concept art looks so emo. Beware the Dark Knight Hawke.

 

 

Well, couldn't we theorise like that about everything...? If Anders had gone after Alrik alone, he might've never got out of there alive, then the explosion never happens, the annulment goes quietly as usual and nobody important ever learns of it, etc. Somebody else could've handled the Arishok... or die trying and the qunari would have taken over the city and then Kirkwall would've been done for good. We don't really know how it would've all gone if Hawke wasn't there and can't prove one way or another. It's interesting to ponder, though, because it's not so clear as it is with the Warden and Inquisitor.

 

I'm not saying you're not right, though. I'm not terribly fixated on Hawke being important, either way. I was wondering, though.

Yes, this i not that easy. Of course: Hawke was at good(bad?) place in the good(bad?) time. But his/her decisions is mostly not mattered at all. The things mostly  just happened with him/her. 

 

“That’s what happens when you try to change things. Things change. You can’t always control, how.” – Hawke (in the Inquisition)

 

Hawke's a lot of effort to pacify all failed: Isabela runavay with the Koslun, Anders blew the chantry (without his/her knowing it / consent)

[fhs33721]

No Hawke overall doesn't matter in the grand scheme of events. Hawke is a deconstruction of the almighty video game protagonist that solves all the big inportant problems in the world. S/he can't do that. S/he doesn't have any grand influence on the world at large. Her/his influence is only on a very peronal level for the peole s/he actually helps (or torments if you play as jerk).

 

Events would have unfolded similarily without Hawke. Varric would have probably recruited the companions on his own for his expedition, maybe save Merill since she only joins the group because Hawke her/himself has business on Sundermount. The others are all met due to Varrics contacts or in case of Isabella because she hangs out at Varrics favourite bar.

The expedition would have taken place, the Qunari situation would have probably exploded a bit earlier and Meredith and her templars would most likely have killed the Arishok instead of Hawke. Then Meredith would most likely have usurped the position of Viscount as well and finally decided to anull the circle after Anders blew up the chantry (though she would probably have killed him as well instead of letting someone else make that decision without Hawke around), which in turn caused the mages at large to rebell later. Oh and Corypheus prison was weakening anyways as well so not even Hawkes involvement in that really mattered.

 

I have to say I personally enjoyed that tremendously and am very sad that due to the negativity this received from a lot of players, we'll probably never get a similar story from Bioware again.

[Illegitimus]

The Darkspawn Chronicles DLC and the In Hushed Whispers quest show that the world would actually end without the presence of the HoF and the Inquisitor.

However, I feel like the events of DA2 would've changed very little if Hawke had been killed by darkspawn in Lothering.

Let's start with the Qunari invasion. While the Arishok was a formidable opponent, I find it hard to believe that literally no one else in Kirkwall could've defeated him. And then we have the fight between mages and templars: We all know that Anders would have blown up the Chantry and set things in motion with or without Hawke.

At best, the Champion reduced the number of casualties by stopping Meredith and Orsino. But in the grand scheme of things that matters little as I'm sure that these nutjobs wouldn't go unpunished.

They would be removed from their jobs and then arrested or executed.

 

You know...I'm not so sure.  I can actually believe the Arishok could eliminate any resistance within Kirkwall without Hawke's intervention.  If that happened then both Alistair and Meredith would probably die fighting the Qunari, the Chantry is never blown up and instead of a Templar/Mage war we end up with another Exalted March to drive the Qunari out of Kirkwall.  Also there's no Hawke to release Corypheus, so Solas takes another approach to unlocking the Key.  

[fhs33721]

You know...I'm not so sure.  I can actually believe the Arishok could eliminate any resistance within Kirkwall without Hawke's intervention.

I can't really see that happen. The qunari seem to be seriously outnumbered by the templars and even as it is in game Meredith and her templars (and depending on your choices potentially Orsino) fight most of the qunari outside while Hawke and company rush ahead and confront the Arishock. And they do win since Meredith shows up unharmed right after you defeat the Arishock.

[Lazarillo]

Hawke's value to the overall state of the world is pretty "butterfly effect"-y. It's very easy to assume that events in general might not have changed significantly if Hawke hadn't been around. On the other has, there are a great many places where Hawke was present that could very easily produce pretty major ripples. For example, outside of settling it, Hawke had very little direct involvement in the whole Qunari affair. Isabela still would've lead them to Kirkwall, where the Tome of Koslun was lost and passed around the underworld for years with the antaam unable to locate it. And the "Make Kirkwall Great Again" team was formed in response to the Qunari, not to anything Hawke did. However, Hawke's actions did potentially slow the speed at which that conflict heated up. Similarly, it was Hawke's leadership that got Meredith and Orsino working together in the end, and that set the stage for their own exchanges getting more heated in the years that followed.

Would things be different without Hawke? Yes. Would things be better or worse? Hard to say. Would those differences be small or large? Also impossible to say.

That all said, I'm fhs33721 that it doesn't necessarily matter to the story Dragon Age 2, at least, because Hawke's story is about Hawke, and not Thedas. And I am hoping we see more of that in future games.

[Sah291]

And then we have the fight between mages and templars: We all know that Anders would have blown up the Chantry and set things in motion with or without Hawke.

We do? Just because Anders came to Kirkwall with "plans" doesn't mean he would have been successful. He likely would have been killed or captured that first attempt to break Karl free. Some other mage, or maybe an elf might have tried something, perhaps.

If Hawke didn't deal with the Qunari, Meredith would have, and she would have either suceeded or failed...which would have changed the course of events. She would have had a lot more general support had she done that and maybe far less resistance to her leadership.

We don't really know if the red lyrium idol still would have come to the surface. Varric might have found someone else to help, but left up to chance, who knows if they would have been successful.

Then there was the releasing of Corypheus, the most obvious thing.

I think the differences are just more subtle. Hawke isn't an epic chosen one hero, compared to the Warden and Inquisitor, and DA2 was a smaller scale and more personal story overall compared to those games. It was also more of an ensemble cast of characters with the companions. Everyone played a part.

Then there's the fact that the story is told about an event that has already taken place. In DAI and DAO we have more of an illusion that we could change the outcome. But the writers give the most important plot points to companions and NPCs to keep the narrative going.

[Pasquale1234]

No Hawke overall doesn't matter in the grand scheme of events. Hawke is a deconstruction of the almighty video game protagonist that solves all the big inportant problems in the world. S/he can't do that. S/he doesn't have any grand influence on the world at large. Her/his influence is only on a very peronal level for the peole s/he actually helps (or torments if you play as jerk).
 
Events would have unfolded similarily without Hawke. Varric would have probably recruited the companions on his own for his expedition, maybe save Merill since she only joins the group because Hawke her/himself has business on Sundermount. The others are all met due to Varrics contacts or in case of Isabella because she hangs out at Varrics favourite bar.
The expedition would have taken place, the Qunari situation would have probably exploded a bit earlier and Meredith and her templars would most likely have killed the Arishok instead of Hawke. Then Meredith would most likely have usurped the position of Viscount as well and finally decided to anull the circle after Anders blew up the chantry (though she would probably have killed him as well instead of letting someone else make that decision without Hawke around), which in turn caused the mages at large to rebell later. Oh and Corypheus prison was weakening anyways as well so not even Hawkes involvement in that really mattered.
 
I have to say I personally enjoyed that tremendously and am very sad that due to the negativity this received from a lot of players, we'll probably never get a similar story from Bioware again.

I think that kind of story might have gone over a lot better if they hadn't used it to alter the world state as a prelude to DAI. Introducing red lyrium, the mage rebellion, and freeing Corypheus all happened under Hawke's nose. DA2 witnessed the unleashing of some threats to the world at large, but Hawke could do nothing about them.

Within the confines of DA2, there were several other stories bubbling along - that Hawke was aware of, but couldn't / didn't do anything about - that eventually boiled over. It made the character feel somewhat like a hapless, passive observer that just lets things fester until they explode.

I guess I'm suggesting that my issue with it is not that Hawke has no grand influence on the world at large, but that Hawke has minimal influence on the things that are (or should be) within the character's sphere of influence. No problem prevention, just ultimate solutions via combat.

DAI Spoiler

Spoiler

My Inquisitor had no personal connection to either the Warden or Hawke. She saw the GW as valuable and in need of leadership, so Hawke made the sacrifice.

[GoldenGail3]

We do? Just because Anders came to Kirkwall with "plans" doesn't mean he would have been successful. He likely would have been killed or captured that first attempt to break Karl free. Some other mage, or maybe an elf might have tried something, perhaps.
 

Actually, Anders would've, cause of Justice - if he were still possessed that is. 

[themikefest]

Well, their basic description for Hawke concepts was "biker mage". Although their final rendition got the biker mage thing down best.

That would be a sight to see. Mage Hawke riding around on her hog. hahaha

[GoldenGail3]

That would be a sight to see. Mage Hawke riding around on her hog. hahaha

My Hawke would be like YAYYYYYYAAAAAAAA!

[vertigomez]

No, but I thought that was kind of the point. Hawke is just an ordinary person trying to survive, who got swept up in extraordinary circumstances. "Rise to power" is a nice way to market the game and it's something that people want to believe in-universe, so they can have someone to blame/idolize, but in actuality Hawke's... just a person.

[Illegitimus]

No, but I thought that was kind of the point. Hawke is just an ordinary person trying to survive, who got swept up in extraordinary circumstances. "Rise to power" is a nice way to market the game and it's something that people want to believe in-universe, so they can have someone to blame/idolize, but in actuality Hawke's... just a person.

 

No, Hawke was actually supposed to be kind of important.  They didn't have Flemeth prophesying at Hawke because Hawke was just another spear carrier.  

[straykat]

No, but I thought that was kind of the point. Hawke is just an ordinary person trying to survive, who got swept up in extraordinary circumstances. "Rise to power" is a nice way to market the game and it's something that people want to believe in-universe, so they can have someone to blame/idolize, but in actuality Hawke's... just a person.

 

 

No, Hawke was actually supposed to be kind of important.  They didn't have Flemeth prophesying at Hawke because Hawke was just another spear carrier.  

 

 

I want to like both of your posts. I know it doesn't make sense.

 

I had more expectations, but in the end, I can appreciate it the end result as well, like vertigomez.