60 réponses à ce sujet

[vertigomez]

No, Hawke was actually supposed to be kind of important.  They didn't have Flemeth prophesying at Hawke because Hawke was just another spear carrier.

They were important in the sense that they were there, but there's nothing inherently special about Hawke except for their connection to the Wardens/Corypheus, and that was Malcolm's thing anyway. I doubt the game would have changed much if both the twins survived and the eldest Hawke died. Anders blew up the Chantry no matter what. Fiona says **** the Divine. Corypheus could use any Hawke blood to return...

Flemeth's prophesying sounds more like it's directed at Thedas in general, given the events of DAI. Or maybe she's referencing Hawke possibly fighting the Nightmare or just being a vague ominous all-powerful witch-god idk.

"We stand upon the precipice of change. The world fears the inevitable plummet into the abyss. Watch for that moment… and when it comes, do not hesitate to leap. It is only when you fall that you learn whether you can fly."

[Catilina]

"We stand upon the precipice of change. The world fears the inevitable plummet into the abyss. Watch for that moment… and when it comes, do not hesitate to leap. It is only when you fall that you learn whether you can fly."

"Cheap advice from a dragon..."

[straykat]

They were important in the sense that they were there, but there's nothing inherently special about Hawke except for their connection to the Wardens/Corypheus, and that was Malcolm's thing anyway. I doubt the game would have changed much if both the twins survived and the eldest Hawke died. Anders blew up the Chantry no matter what. Fiona says **** the Divine. Corypheus could use any Hawke blood to return...

Flemeth's prophesying sounds more like it's directed at Thedas in general, given the events of DAI. Or maybe she's referencing Hawke possibly fighting the Nightmare or just being a vague ominous all-powerful witch-god idk.

"We stand upon the precipice of change. The world fears the inevitable plummet into the abyss. Watch for that moment… and when it comes, do not hesitate to leap. It is only when you fall that you learn whether you can fly."

 

Flemeth wasn't just prophesying in general. There were specific, personal things about it. especially if you take the pregame/marketing into account.

 

To me, the game comes off like an origin story... but it's an origin story that went nowhere. Because the larger "fanbase" (or whatever they are) sucks. And I mean that.. they truly suck. 

 

Hawke amounted to nothing, for the same reason the expansion was canceled, and Jen Hepler is gone. 

[Ferretinabun]

 

 

I have to say I personally enjoyed that tremendously and am very sad that due to the negativity this received from a lot of players, we'll probably never get a similar story from Bioware again.

 

Hear hear! Yes the game was heavily flawed, but I don't count 'The Protagonist Was Not The Centre Of the Universe, Able to Fix Every Problem S/He Encounters' as one of those problems. Hawke's powerlessness in the face of events made the political and social situations seem complex, entangled and bigger than just one person, which is exactly how they should feel.

[vertigomez]

Flemeth wasn't just prophesying in general. There were specific, personal things about it. especially if you take the pregame/marketing into account.
 
To me, the game comes off like an origin story... but it's an origin story that went nowhere.

I'm okay with that. After everything Hawke went through in my game, he's presumably enjoying his retirement with a burger and a beer and his boyfriend, and no ancient darkspawn magisters or extremist elements are dragging him into their mess.

Because the larger "fanbase" (or whatever they are) sucks. And I mean that.. they truly suck. 

You don't like the way it turned out. Implying that the people who did aren't real fans and saying that they "truly suck" isn't necessary. It's okay to be disappointed without attacking other people.

[straykat]

I'm okay with that. After everything Hawke went through in my game, he's presumably enjoying his retirement with a burger and a beer and his boyfriend, and no ancient darkspawn magisters or extremist elements are dragging him into their mess.


You don't like the way it turned out. Implying that the people who did aren't real fans and saying that they "truly suck" isn't necessary. It's okay to be disappointed without attacking other people.

 

People who call for death threats and get things canceled prematurely are a strange breed of fan.... to say the least.

 

I'm not attacking anyone except people who were hostile to begin with. I won't apologize for it.. DA2 and ME3 were an ugly period.

[vertigomez]

Death threats, sure. That's ten kinds of horrible. I'll never understand the fandom's frothing rage against DA2 simply for not being Origins 2.

But then again I'll never understand fandom's distaste for DAI, either.

[straykat]

Death threats, sure. That's ten kinds of horrible. I'll never understand the fandom's frothing rage against DA2 simply for not being Origins 2.

But then again I'll never understand fandom's distaste for DAI, either.

 

It''s more like... I can't find my place in it. It's not exactly hate (talking about DAI, that is).

 

I changed as a fan because of it. Bioware were always kind of my go to/rainy day developer.. They were always entertaining for replays if no other games were around. Now I just can't do it. So I couldn't even call myself a fan now.

[Pasquale1234]

To me, the game comes off like an origin story... but it's an origin story that went nowhere. Because the larger "fanbase" (or whatever they are) sucks. And I mean that.. they truly suck. 
 
Hawke amounted to nothing, for the same reason the expansion was canceled, and Jen Hepler is gone.

If I'm reading this correctly, you're blaming fans for Hawke amounting to nothing and the cancellation of the expansion.

Hawke was the character s/he was written to be. As I understand it, the expansion was canceled mostly due to lack of interest. The game didn't sell as well as expected / hoped, and retailers weren't interested in carrying it. Apparently, BioWare / EA decided it would make better financial sense to scrap it.

[Pasquale1234]

Hear hear! Yes the game was heavily flawed, but I don't count 'The Protagonist Was Not The Centre Of the Universe, Able to Fix Every Problem S/He Encounters' as one of those problems. Hawke's powerlessness in the face of events made the political and social situations seem complex, entangled and bigger than just one person, which is exactly how they should feel.

My bigger issue with Hawke is that the character seems... rudderless.

Every time I tried to inject some motivation, goals, ambition, etc., the game would do something to actively deny it. Hawke's only apparent purpose was to react to other people and events and try to solve their problems.

All of the other recent BioWare titles gave our characters specific goals - ending the blight, sealing the rifts, stopping Saren, stopping the collectors, stopping the reapers. Hawke never had any such purpose.

It's been quite a long time since I've played DA2, and it's possible that I might have a different experience with it if I play it again. As it stands, Hawke feels more like an NPC than a PC to me.

[straykat]

If I'm reading this correctly, you're blaming fans for Hawke amounting to nothing and the cancellation of the expansion.

Hawke was the character s/he was written to be. As I understand it, the expansion was canceled mostly due to lack of interest. The game didn't sell as well as expected / hoped, and retailers weren't interested in carrying it. Apparently, BioWare / EA decided it would make better financial sense to scrap it.

 

Well, yeah.. I ultimately put that on fans. It's like they play a part in the writing, unintentionally.

 

This kind of thing would never happen with books. There aren't the same "market forces", if you will. Artists can enact their vision from start to finish, instead of worrying too much if they'll have to change course midway through. And if they do change course, it's solely because of them alone.

 

It's kind of frustrating if you get invested in game stories. Not that I'm gonna give up on it anytime soon.

[Pasquale1234]

Well, yeah.. I ultimately put that on fans. It's like they play a part in the writing, unintentionally.

Well - every piece of fiction ever written is subject to interpretation by its consumers.

In the case of an RPG, the actual narrative is co-created by the player.
 

This kind of thing would never happen with books. There aren't the same "market forces", if you will. Artists can enact their vision from start to finish, instead of worrying too much if they'll have to change course midway through. And if they do change course, it's solely because of them alone.

In a single book, maybe not - though I do think editors sometimes influence what ultimately gets published.

Also - I suspect that later volumes in series books may be influenced by market pressures.
 

It's kind of frustrating if you get invested in game stories. Not that I'm gonna give up on it anytime soon.

Good on you.

[straykat]

In the case of an RPG, the actual narrative is co-created by the player.

 

The choices are, sure, but tonal shift and general direction shouldn't be up to any of us. That's what I fear can happen, from too much criticism (and capitalism).

 

Even without Hawke, I could have used a better followup to the mage/templar war at least. I liked where DA2 and Asunder were going. I don't think it was done justice and it got hijacked by the Breach right away. Either Bioware has ADD or angry fans are driving the direction of the games. "We don't want that. Do something else!" It sucks if you were invested in the story.

 

But anyways, I won't carry on about it.

[Catilina]

My bigger issue with Hawke is that the character seems... rudderless.

Every time I tried to inject some motivation, goals, ambition, etc., the game would do something to actively deny it. Hawke's only apparent purpose was to react to other people and events and try to solve their problems.

All of the other recent BioWare titles gave our characters specific goals - ending the blight, sealing the rifts, stopping Saren, stopping the collectors, stopping the reapers. Hawke never had any such purpose.

It's been quite a long time since I've played DA2, and it's possible that I might have a different experience with it if I play it again. As it stands, Hawke feels more like an NPC than a PC to me.

I think: Hawke was the least "NPC".

 

Hawke have goals, just as you and me and any people in the world. S/He want to survive, want to be happy, as much as possible, and keep his/her family/friends safe, and a place, where they can live in peace. This is his/her "specific" goal.

[straykat]

I think: Hawke was the least "NPC".

 

Hawke have goals, just as you and me and any people in the world. S/He want to survive, want to be happy, as much as possible, and keep his/her family/friends safe, and a place, where they can live in peace.This is his/her "specific" goal.

 

I thought Family was a big theme for Hawke.

 

It's just a guess, but it's all over the place. So I kind of just bought into it, and roleplay her caring about that a lot. It makes her very human to me.

 

Death is like the big theme for DAO... or survival. Not sure about DAI.

[Catilina]

I thought Family was a big theme for Hawke.

 

It's just a guess, but it's all over the place. So I kind of just bought into it, and roleplay her caring about that a lot. It makes her very human to me.

 

Death is like the big theme for DAO... or survival. Not sure about DAI.

DA:I? 

Saving the world. Ofc.

[straykat]

DA:I? 

Saving the world. Ofc.

 

Kind of vague, but.. I suppose

 

I mean, the Warden saves the world too, but death is weaved in so much dialogue. With Wynne, Ali, Leliana (even Leliana's Song in the camp is the elven death song).. and then it's contrasted with Morrigan who defies death and preaches survival at any costs. It's kind of cool to see the Warden struggle between all of this. A lot of the big choices end up being about accepting death too. Like Zathrian, Caridin, etc.. 

 

If there is another theme for DAI, maybe it's faith. But I think it could've been better. 

[Pasquale1234]

The choices are, sure, but tonal shift and general direction shouldn't be up to any of us. That's what I fear can happen, from too much criticism (and capitalism).

A certain amount of the tone - or at least how a character feels - is determined by the person playing the character.

I still have an adept Shepard sitting in ME1, that I designed to be very angry and bitter about the treatment of biotics. I've not gotten back to finish her playthrough because I don't like the way it feels to play a bitter character.
 

Even without Hawke, I could have used a better followup to the mage/templar war at least. I liked where DA2 and Asunder were going. I don't think it was done justice and it got hijacked by the Breach right away. Either Bioware has ADD or angry fans are driving the direction of the games. "We don't want that. Do something else!" It sucks if you were invested in the story.
 
But anyways, I won't carry on about it.

This is part of the reason why I quit getting invested in TV series ~ 30 years ago. It happened to me time and time again that a series would go off in some direction that took it away from what I liked about it in the first place. It is genuinely frustrating.
 

I think: Hawke was the least "NPC".

Hawke have goals, just as you and me and any people in the world. S/He want to survive, want to be happy, as much as possible, and keep his/her family/friends safe, and a place, where they can live in peace. This is his/her "specific" goal.

You just nailed one of the problems I had with Hawke. I tried to play a Hawke who wanted to take care of her family, but her family was stripped from her. Even if Bethany went to the circle / Carver to the templars, you couldn't even visit them.

Survival stories can be interesting in worlds that make it difficult - like the post-apocalyptic worlds of Fallout.

And I guess just wanting to be happy / just wanting to take care of friends & family isn't enough character motivation for me to enjoy a story some other writer is trying to tell me. I think those goals are pretty universal; I need more for a character to be interesting to me.

[straykat]

I admit that. My Hawke cared deeply about family, but it's still tragic nonetheless..

 

 

Ugh... I hate when that happens to TV series too. But I still watch them. A good one that got canceled prematurely recently was the Borgias..

[Catilina]

[...]

You just nailed one of the problems I had with Hawke. I tried to play a Hawke who wanted to take care of her family, but her family was stripped from her. Even if Bethany went to the circle / Carver to the templars, you couldn't even visit them.

Survival stories can be interesting in worlds that make it difficult - like the post-apocalyptic worlds of Fallout.

And I guess just wanting to be happy / just wanting to take care of friends & family isn't enough character motivation for me to enjoy a story some other writer is trying to tell me. I think those goals are pretty universal; I need more for a character to be interesting to me.

Yes, this is, why Hawke a tragic hero.

 

A world-savig character why more interest? 

1. Warden: What motivated him/her? Surviving. S/He did not choose his/her fate: it happened. 

2. Inquisitor:  What motivated him/her? Surviving. S/He did not choose his/her fate: it happened. 

 

This not more interest than Hawke's motivation, I think. Do not get me wrong: I like my Wardens, and I like my Inquisitors too. But no more so than Hawke.

 

And I do not want to convinve you (about the tastes silly to argue) I just wote the my opinion.

[Pasquale1234]

Yes, this is, why Hawke a tragic hero.
 
A world-savig character why more interest?

I think you misunderstand.

I don't need a world-saving hero in order for a character to interest me. I welcome smaller, more personal plotlines, with more localized goals.

If taking care of family is Hawke's primary motive, then Hawke has completely failed by the middle of the second act. I don't much enjoy stories about characters who completely fail at their most cherished goals - at least not unless they gain something else in the process.

Losing Mom was not only foreshadowed, but the templar who'd been investigating the missing women turned the investigation over to Hawke in Act 1. Hawke did nothing about it. I found that immensely frustrating.
 

1. Warden: What motivated him/her? Surviving. S/He did not choose his/her fate: it happened.

That depends on the Warden. My dwarf commoner didn't give 2 hoots about saving the surfacers from the darkspawn. She accumulated quite a bit of coin, and once she'd secured a future for her mother and sister in Orzammar (by putting Bhelen on the throne), she ran off to join the Legion of the Dead. Never made it to the landsmeet.

A Cousland Warden gets to kill Howe, and a male Cousland can put himself on the throne with Anora.

Other Wardens I've played have had other motives - some personal, some were all about being the HoF.
 

2. Inquisitor:  What motivated him/her? Surviving. S/He did not choose his/her fate: it happened.

I've not yet completed my first playthrough of DAI, so I'm not very well prepared to discuss it. I do think that different Inkys can have different motives, though, especially since you deal with a lot of different factions in that game. Some Inkys might be wanting to take over the world, while others might just want to move on once the breaches are closed and Cory defeated.

One thing I like about DAI is the way that the 3 advisors represent 3 uniquely different ways to solve a problem: via diplomacy, force, or subterfuge. How you use the advisors can say a lot about Inky.
 

And I do not want to convinve you (about the tastes silly to argue) I just wote the my opinion.

That's cool - you really can't convince somebody to like something they really don't especially like.

That's not to say that there aren't some things about DA2 that I really do like - it's just that Hawke isn't one of them.

[straykat]

There's some sweet moments after Act 2 though. Legacy with the sibling, Charade. It's not all a fail.

 

 

.... I even grew to like Gamlen. Go figure.

[Pasquale1234]

There's some sweet moments after Act 2 though. Legacy with the sibling, Charade. It's not all a fail.

Well, yeah, that was a bright spot.

Of course, I also wish Hawke had been able to save Saemus Dumar, or somehow stop Petrice before the Qunari finally ended her little reign of terror.

So much tragedy that Hawke couldn't stop.

[GoldenGail3]

I admit that. My Hawke cared deeply about family, but it's still tragic nonetheless..

 

 

Ugh... I hate when that happens to TV series too. But I still watch them. A good one that got canceled prematurely recently was the Borgias..

Another one is Marvel's Agent Carter too. 

[straykat]

Another one is Marvel's Agent Carter too. 

 

Does it at least tie up loose ends? Is it worth watching? Because I meant to get around to it.

 

The problem with the Borgias is it ended with a lot of unfinished stuff.