214 réponses à ce sujet

[mopotter]

They could just have announced that Shepard had been found 

 

This.  And Bioware seems to have taken note since Trespasser reintroduced the longer and more in depth epilogue that vanilla Inquisition tried for but slightly missed.  The range of endings for characters was spectacular and one quite... somber and chilling. 

 

I think Bioware got the message loud and clear after ME3.  Don't railroad the player into a limited ending and don't just forget about the characters.  Honestly, if ME3 had been the exact same but gave an hour long epilogue showcasing how Jack and Miri and Garrus and etc were affected by everything and how they pushed forward, the outcry would have been far far more muted.  Instead, we still are left with mostly no closure on any of the characters. 

I agree about the ME2 characters needed more content but I'd still have been in a crappy mood unless they mentioned Shepard was recuperating in the hospital.  Or they could have just had Joker announced over the ship's loudspeaker that Shepard had been found.  That would have done it for me.  I truly hated the charred body image they gave me and the "you decide" cop out.

[Kabraxal]

They could just have announced that Shepard had been found 

 

I agree about the ME2 characters needed more content but I'd still have been in a crappy mood unless they mentioned Shepard was recuperating in the hospital.  Or they could have just had Joker announced over the ship's loudspeaker that Shepard had been found.  That would have done it for me.  I truly hated the charred body image they gave me and the "you decide" cop out.

 

O there would still be room for criticism on the ending with the railroading... but it was made all the worse that we didn't find out the long last effects of anything.  All the slides did, even EC versions, were add some minor blips of "change".  What should have been there were the DA:O and Tresppasser level of slides where we get a real sense of where characters ended up, what choices had what effects, and stuff like that. 

 

The ME3 ending offered no real closure for anything.  It was basically "the war is arbitrarily over in a nonsensical way.. THE END". I'd say Bioware took the beating they received on that to heart given how DA:I vanilla did at least try to showcase some of the differences via their epilogue.  They then proved they were listening with Trespasser and that epilogue slideshow was probably one of the most satisfying things they have given us. 

 

If I were being honest and the ME trilogy was given a remaster at some point, they don't need to wholesale change the ending if that is the catch to it being remastered.  Just add more slides... hell, have the final slide be the "gotcha!" where Shepard and the romanced companion are suddenly shown to have had a life after if Shepard actually survived.  And it doesn't require any voice over work... just an elegant and well written slide.  I would love the final hour or so of the game to be completely rejiggered, but I would totally accept a better and more in depth epilogue.

[Seboist]

Given Bioware's track record of removing things instead of improving them, i half-expect this game not to have any endings at all.

[Iakus]

Given Bioware's track record of removing things instead of improving them, i half-expect this game not to have any endings at all.

That would still be an improvement 

[Iakus]

 

If I were being honest and the ME trilogy was given a remaster at some point, they don't need to wholesale change the ending if that is the catch to it being remastered.  Just add more slides... hell, have the final slide be the "gotcha!" where Shepard and the romanced companion are suddenly shown to have had a life after if Shepard actually survived.  And it doesn't require any voice over work... just an elegant and well written slide.  I would love the final hour or so of the game to be completely rejiggered, but I would totally accept a better and more in depth epilogue.

They'd still be cr*ppy endings, though.

 

I mean, I know how the anti-enders get smeared with the whole rainbows and unicorns thing, but Shepard's survival, or lack thereof, is still only a portion of why the endings are so reviled.  

[Seboist]

That would still be an improvement 

True, i wouldn't have my brain turning into mush and pouring out my ears after seeing schlock that would make even Ed Wood facepalm.

[mopotter]

I would be happy with an everybody dies ending as long as it made sense and didn't come out nowhere.

But would you play it for 5 or 10 years?  Just repeating the same thing every time.  I'm trying to think of games I have in my keep pile that are one ending wonders. 

 

 XCom Enemy unknown.  That is one I do replay once in awhile but I'm not invested in the characters and I don't replay it the way I replay BioWare and Bethesda games.  And someone I know who I trust, recommended it.         

[Kabraxal]

They'd still be cr*ppy endings, though.

 

I mean, I know how the anti-enders get smeared with the whole rainbows and unicorns thing, but Shepard's survival, or lack thereof, is still only a portion of why the endings are so reviled.  

 

Not disagreeing there.  The Starbrat is simply a terrible plot device and the theme radically shifts from the rest of the franchise, but the horrible after taste would have been lessened if we weren't sitting there asking "and?  What happened to the characters?  What about the genophage being cured?  How did the galaxy differ from all those choices we made?". 

 

The rage wouldn't have been as explosive and I think most discussions would simply be "the final choice made no sense" more than "what about our choices damn it!!!!" reaction that did exist.  Epilogues that showcased differing outcomes on the genophage, who lived or died, who became out, etc would have lessened the feeling that nothing we did mattered.  As it stands, the final railroaded idiocy mixed with absolutely no illumination on how the different choices changed anything created a disaster for Bioware.  Together that gave the impression that our choices meant absolutely nothing. 

[Giantdeathrobot]

They'd still be cr*ppy endings, though.

 

I mean, I know how the anti-enders get smeared with the whole rainbows and unicorns thing, but Shepard's survival, or lack thereof, is still only a portion of why the endings are so reviled.  

 

Wouldn't change anything for me. I'm fine with Shepard dying, it definitely fits the tone of ME3 itself in my mind.

 

But everything else about the ending still sucks. The nonsensical motivations of the Catalyst, the rushed lack of closure, the utter idiocy of making organics vs synthetics the series's core theme at the last second, the absurd science involved (even by Mass Effect standards), and *shudders* Synthesis.

 

I'd have been perfectly OK with an ending where we defeat TIM, then Shepard dies of their wounds next to Anderson as the Reapers are dealt with by the Catalyst.

[Gothfather]

Oh, definitely. They should just do whatever it is they want and let the cards fall where they will.

 

Not quite what I meant by saying they always stick to a formula. I was referring to the storytelling in their games: most if not all of them have basically the same plot and more or less the same characters.

 

Hmm I am not sure where you get bioware with sticking to a formula. The story in DA:I, DA2, & DA:O are all divergent from each other, there is no route formula used. Are all the Mass Effect title similar? yes but that is because it is really all one story. Now I will agree that there are similarities to ME trilogy and DA:I but one example does not a pattern make. If we go back even further Kotor as a very unique story to all of bioware games and so does the BG series. There NPCs are literary archetypes so yes there can be parellels drawn but you can to that with all characters in all stories because that is the nature of archetypes they are similar which makes them archetypes. Archetypes give knowledge to the player without having to spoon feed it which is why they are ubiquitous in storytelling. 

 

It seems to me that you are again not really looking at Bioware actual game catalogue and simply going DA:I was similar to ME3 ergo bioware always stays with a formula. And i just don't see it. There isn't even a consistent common theme to their games. And again given that Mass Effect is a single three part story you can't say well all the ME games are the same story and same theme because it is actually just one story.

 

 

I don't get what the offspring of a god, a fallen Jedi, a space marine secular messiah, Grey Warden, City champion and a Religious Messiah/prophet and their stories have in common. With the exception of ME trilogy and DA:I where is this pattern so we can say a  formula is always repeating itself in Bioware games?

 

That plot chart was so superficial that almost any group of speculative fiction stories will be able to fit those criteria especially when they use dreaming as sleeps but can't dream as filling this cliche. wtf? So the exact opposite of the cliche is the cliche? It is a chart poorly designed as some of these things are not even PLOT points. People who make of these charts do so to seem wise but it shows a complete lack of understanding of literary devices and character archetypes. This type of thing is typical of the reddit Faux intellectualism, bunch of people thinking that education isn't actually needed to do things. Who needs professionals like the police, we can solve crimes!  errr yes at about a 50% success rate where you falsely accuse people the other 50% of the time.  Not what I would call a shining beacon of intellectualism.

[Gothfather]

Not disagreeing there.  The Starbrat is simply a terrible plot device and the theme radically shifts from the rest of the franchise, but the horrible after taste would have been lessened if we weren't sitting there asking "and?  What happened to the characters?  What about the genophage being cured?  How did the galaxy differ from all those choices we made?". 

 

The rage wouldn't have been as explosive and I think most discussions would simply be "the final choice made no sense" more than "what about our choices damn it!!!!" reaction that did exist.  Epilogues that showcased differing outcomes on the genophage, who lived or died, who became out, etc would have lessened the feeling that nothing we did mattered.  As it stands, the final railroaded idiocy mixed with absolutely no illumination on how the different choices changed anything created a disaster for Bioware.  Together that gave the impression that our choices meant absolutely nothing. 

 

And Shepard's survival is an aside to all that. Even if Shepard could live in one of the endings everything you said about the endings would still be true. Your choices didn't matter no single choice was a factor in the endings, period. It was all war score/was asset gated. Shepard's death is completely separate from the failure of the endings. And in fact there is a version where Shepard survives which is control. So again this is definitive proof that survival isn't the issue.

 

The star brat isn't the problem either, in fact the star brat makes perfect sense post leviathan DLC what doesn't make sense is releasing the game with Leviathan content cut as it was vital to explain the reapers and the catalyst and the nature of the cycles without them nothing makes sense with them it all becomes clear. But again this isn't the problem with the endings, I would go a step further it wasn't the the endings game the impression that our choices meant absolutely nothing it is in actual fact that our choices did mean absolutely nothing because no choice in the series gate any ending and with MP and DLC content giving you war assets you can create a situation where any combo of choices gives you access to all three/four endings. Which meant no choice mattered at all to the endings. If this is the case then the endings really are choose your favourite flavour. This isn't an appearance of X this actually is X.

 

Which is why people like myself who praise bioware for NOT allowing the sipping mojitos with you LI on the beach ending option still HATE the endings. The journey is still worth it in and of itself in my opinion but the endings are meaningless to the game played because the add nothing, they are not shaped by the past choices of teh character and provide zero illumination on the actions of the player. In short they are almost a completely separate entity the games themselves.

[Gileadan]

Actually, as I understood it, Shepard does not survive in Control... the new Reaper-Emperor is an AI created through space magic that requires Shepard to die. The new AI is based on Shepards personality and is aware of that, but it's otherwise a completely separate being.

[straykat]

Actually, as I understood it, Shepard does not survive in Control... the new Reaper-Emperor is an AI created through space magic that requires Shepard to die. The new AI is based on Shepards personality and is aware of that, but it's otherwise a completely separate being.

 

I could've sworn they even say that, in some way.

[Mihura]

I'll be the first to admit that the ending to ME3 was very bad. But I worry that the lesson BW will take from the outcry is to make the next game as safe and uncontroversial as possible. I like my stories to have a little bite and something to chew over. There were interesting ideas in the ending, and I actually liked that there was no way to successfully end the war without giving up something significant. I also consider DA2 my favorite of the modern BW games, even if it's deeply flawed from a level design standpoint. Again, it tried to do something we don't see very often in videogames, with a hero who is not larger than the events surrounding her and is just trying to hold on.

By contrast, I don't like DAI very much at all. Oh, I like the LGBT content well enough, but the game as a whole felt bland and soulless. I felt like I couldn't make a meaningful choice and that Corypheus was never in danger of winning. Even the Fade choice had very little impact because the Inquisitor has only the faintest idea who these people are. The worst thing they could possibly happen is getting dumped by your boyfriend, and that's just not world shaking. I hated Citadel with the burning passion of a thousand suns. So yes, I worry that the writers have overreacted and MEA will be a nice, safe, story that takes no risks. I'd rather have the interesting failures back.

 

Doubt it, they seem to go for a DA 2 approach of it, with having a family and an adventure without a super human hero.

[Chealec]

But would you play it for 5 or 10 years?  Just repeating the same thing every time.  I'm trying to think of games I have in my keep pile that are one ending wonders. 

 

 XCom Enemy unknown.  That is one I do replay once in awhile but I'm not invested in the characters and I don't replay it the way I replay BioWare and Bethesda games.  And someone I know who I trust, recommended it.         

 

I've been playing:

 

Total War games since the original Shogun ~ 16 years

XCOM games since the original on a DX2/66 ~ 21 years

The Civ series since the original on the Amiga... ~ 25 years.

 

Mass Effect is still a young pup

[straykat]

I've been playing:

 

Total War games since the original Shogun ~ 16 years

XCOM games since the original on a DX2/66 ~ 21 years

The Civ series since the original on the Amiga... ~ 25 years.

 

Mass Effect is still a young pup

 

You sound as old as I am. I played the first Xcom too... edit: I would never have thought it'd still be here.

[Big Bad]

The star brat isn't the problem either, in fact the star brat makes perfect sense post leviathan DLC what doesn't make sense is releasing the game with Leviathan content cut as it was vital to explain the reapers and the catalyst and the nature of the cycles without them nothing makes sense with them it all becomes clear.

I think you have this backwards.  Leviathan was almost certainly not cut content.  The ideas in Leviathan were created after the fact in attempt to make sense of the ending.   

[Huntress]

They shouldn't have made leviathan creatures, they shouldn't have made the last evil of the galaxy a hologram. Mistake #9999.100..000  Evil hologram try to explain to players the why's and the good's of been made machine juice, or why is bad for humanoid to create robots,because their robots can kill humanoids... while his own robot's destroying everything that resemble humanoid. <--that was so stupid!! Ahahaha 

 

Worst yet was trying to make sense of why shepard has to come down to earth .. gosh.... art?

 well too bad they stopped players from shooting the hell out of that stupid hologram. still fun to watch, hehe

 

DAI is very bad game, boring and is missing alot more that what da2 has.. and let me say DA2 has very little in it and yet is fun to play.

[capn233]

False. This is the what uniformed people think. They honestly think that a commander if they are super duper so damn awesome can eliminate casualties. That is a false ideal it is impossible.

Nope.

If anybody is uninformed, it would be the one making lengthy diatribes about how the standard formula for a game isn't consistent with a conception of the real world because in a game player performance determines the outcome.

 

Doubly so when the game is a space opera, a genre in which a single or small number of characters almost always has a large influence on events.

 

You might as well write an essay on why eezo is unrealistic.

[mopotter]

I've been playing:

 

Total War games since the original Shogun ~ 16 years

XCOM games since the original on a DX2/66 ~ 21 years

The Civ series since the original on the Amiga... ~ 25 years.

 

Mass Effect is still a young pup

You make me feel so young. Video game young anyway.     I was around 37 when I found video games.  Played a lot of Might and Magic and Diablo on my mac and Legend of Zelda type stuff on my NES.  

 

I think Chrono Trigger was the first game I played with more the one ending and I found my love of options.  KOTOR was my first obsession.      Still is.  

 

Love Civilization.  Found that in 2008 with the Revolution for the 360 and recently downloaded from steam on my pc.

[Iakus]

I've been playing:

 

Total War games since the original Shogun ~ 16 years

XCOM games since the original on a DX2/66 ~ 21 years

The Civ series since the original on the Amiga... ~ 25 years.

 

Mass Effect is still a young pup

Let's just say the holotape games in Fallout 4 gave me nostalgia.

 

Though I knew them by other names...

[Cyonan]

But would you play it for 5 or 10 years?  Just repeating the same thing every time.  I'm trying to think of games I have in my keep pile that are one ending wonders. 

 

 XCom Enemy unknown.  That is one I do replay once in awhile but I'm not invested in the characters and I don't replay it the way I replay BioWare and Bethesda games.  And someone I know who I trust, recommended it.         

 

I'll still go back and play the first Fire Emblem game to come out in North America which I first played 11 years ago. On top of that, my favourite game of all time is Half-Life which came out in 1998.

 

The thing about these games is that when you've got really good core design and/or story, the games tend to be timeless. Half-Life's gameplay can hold up against any modern FPS.

 

That's why I went back to Diablo 2 after Diablo 3 came out. Even after the improvements made, Diablo 2 is the far superior game.

 

A game with great core design and story will remains in our libraries forever.

[Gothfather]

I think you have this backwards.  Leviathan was almost certainly not cut content.  The ideas in Leviathan were created after the fact in attempt to make sense of the ending.   

 

Do you have any evidence to support this? Most DLCs are planned post release which is why many studios stop DLC production even when a title is still widely popular for example SKyrim only had three and it was still selling well. The reason is clear their production schedule was already predetermined and one of the first parts of production on a story dlc is writing it and the last parts of production of a game don't include writing...

 

So any evidence for this? I mean if i see the evidence I am more than willing to admit I am wrong because I form my opinion on evidence not pick evidence to suit my opinions so just asking.

[Il Divo]

Do you have any evidence to support this? Most DLCs are planned post release which is why many studios stop DLC production even when a title is still widely popular for example SKyrim only had three and it was still selling well. The reason is clear their production schedule was already predetermined and one of the first parts of production on a story dlc is writing it and the last parts of production of a game don't include writing...

 

So any evidence for this? I mean if i see the evidence I am more than willing to admit I am wrong because I form my opinion on evidence not pick evidence to suit my opinions so just asking.

 

^I'd have to go quote-digging here, but I remember Bioware explicitly mentioning that they had to push their entire dlc schedule back to make room for the Extended Cut. Given that it took several months for them to produce 10-15 minutes worth of cutscenes/dialogue, I think it's pretty unlikely that they would have been able to push Leviathan out because of the ending back lash, given it's a much bigger dlc. 

[Gothfather]

I've been playing:

 

Total War games since the original Shogun ~ 16 years

XCOM games since the original on a DX2/66 ~ 21 years

The Civ series since the original on the Amiga... ~ 25 years.

 

Mass Effect is still a young pup

Psssst Civ was released in 1992 for the amiga so ~ 24 years.

 

just to be anal

 

http://www.mobygames...on/release-info