106 réponses à ce sujet

[straykat]

Still don't see what weapon restrictions add to the game. Maybe the weight system needs a rebalance, but that doesn't mean we must go back to the overly restrictive ME1/ME2 system.

 

Give the Soldier exclusive use of specialised heavy weapons to fit their niche, sure. But the base weapon types (rifles, sniper, shotgun, pistol, SMG) should be available to everyone. Classes should be distinguished by unique mechanics, not telling an Adept he's too inept to fire a rifle or a shotgun. Soldiers will have heavy weapons, Vanguards their Charge, Engineers their drone (hopefully made better/customisable in Andromeda), Sentinel their tech barrier making them the tankiest class, Infiltrators their cloak and sniper slo-mo, and Adepts have... I dunno, the only class able to prime and detonate their own biotic explosions? or maybe a new, class definiing power.

 

All of this, of course, assumes Andromeda uses the same classes and power suites as the original trilogy did. Maybe they will change the formula much more than we imagine. I wonder how a classless model would work in Mass Effect, where you pick and chose your abilities. I guess the one big obstacle is biotic vs non-biotic in this case.

 

Well, if you don't go back to the ME2 system, then I'd prefer the weight being pretty restrictive for non-soldiers...and it'd virtually be the same thing as ME2.

 

Carry weight is a defining trait of any soldier though. It should reflect that. It shouldn't be some ho-hum forgettable feature, that doesn't really affect people.

 

OTOH, I'd like there to be a strength boost, for anyone who wishes to spend a point on it. They'd sacrifice a biotic boost/cooldown or something. People would just decide what's better for them.

 

Cooldowns should be more extreme too. Biotics need to constantly keep their energy up. They shouldn't be wielding claymores and ****, without some serious training.

[Cyonan]

That's all true only in a very loose sense, meaning that while they have the abilities you say, they are not truly different,

they don't really change the battlefield in a unique manner. Every class still plays like traditional TPS plus a little extra,

when they don't really need to be so constrained.

 

Take engineer for example, I would suggest breaking engineer talents into two trees, one for elemental effects, and one for summons.

The elemental tree will have multiple options, possibly expended from what existed during ME3 (could be interesting to cover the ground in ice so enemies will fall down or become slowed), and the "summons" tree will also be strengthened and expended - I wouldn't mind seeing a tech version of seeker swarm, meaning a deploy-able nanobot swarm that damages enemies and causes them to panic.

 

So engineer and Adept could theoretically become mostly pure casters (with training only for - say - pistols), while classes like Vanguard and Sentinel would offer something similar to the current play-style, so no options would really be removed, and new ones will be added.

 

As for ammo "powers", as far as I am concerned they should remove them from the powers section anyway, back into the weapon upgrade section

or consumable item section. This way an adept may be able to pick warp-ammo (maybe this one specifically does need to remain in the power list - for lore reasons), but seeing as the Adept only has training for pistols, the effectiveness of warp ammo would be limited.

 

Well I think you could offer this sort of thing without taking stuff away from the classes.

 

If we look to ME3 MP we see the huge variation in the kits that people used. You have the Asari Adept who could use the standard Warp->Throw spam or go into stasis sniper. The Asari Justicar is who I liked to use as my biotic gunner with Reave + Warp Rounds. The N7 Fury was a machine gun of biotic explosions that barely even needed to use her gun. The Phoenix Adept was a hard hitter that didn't rely as much on combos. The Drell could clear rooms like a boss with Cluster Grenade.

 

The main thing is that if we throw all of that at Ryder, we'd need to restrict how many abilities the player can get at once. Where Mass Effect 3 let us max everything out, Andromeda would have to make the player make choices with what abilities to pick up.

 

In general I will agree that most evolutions of abilities could be more interesting, as well.

 

As for ammo powers, there was a thread about that not too long ago. The general consensus is that if we take those away, we need to find something else to give to Soldiers that fits their class but isn't just rehashing Adrenaline Rush's "Shoot things better" mechanics.

[Sartoz]

I would disagree with the characterization of biotics in ME2.

 

Big Snip

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Hm... about your reply.

Are you speaking from a newbie point of view or as a pro?

 

'Cause, my first game was ME2 and I went for Sentinel. Biotics were as useless as t1ts on a bull, so was the Adept Class.. Got through ME2 via Soldier Class. And, I had "standard difficulty".  Yes, It was my first shooter game. Yes, I had no clue how to employ biotics "properly".... something I learned playing MP with ME3.

 

So, I ask. The very first time you played ME1/2  (I guess) as a biotic user... did you really know how to use the Powers properly?  The freaking Not Tutorial was also useless to me.

 

Anyone here learned how to use biotics properly just playing ME1-3?  Put another way. At what point did you guys learned how to survive using biotics?.

 

My viewpoint is that after dying three times on  a mission early on by using biotics, I figured the rest of the game was "unfun" and switch to Soldier Class.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Well, if you don't go back to the ME2 system, then I'd prefer the weight being pretty restrictive for non-soldiers...and it'd virtually be the same thing as ME2.

 

Carry weight is a defining trait of any soldier though. It should reflect that. It shouldn't be some ho-hum forgettable feature, that doesn't really affect people.

 

OTOH, I'd like there to be a strength boost, for anyone who wishes to spend a point on it. They'd sacrifice a biotic boost/cooldown or something. People would just decide what's better for them.

 

Cooldowns should be more extreme too. Biotics need to constantly keep their energy up. They shouldn't be wielding claymores and ****, without some serious training.

 

That's why I said the system could be rebalanced. Of course Soldiers should have a significantly higher carry weight than any other class, being walking armories is their entire point. But I don't want them to go back to restrctions at all, that's just dumb and unimaginative design. Let the player have the freedom to at least use what weapon they want. If an Engineer wants to rock a Claymore, let them be. They will be inefficient, most likely, but that's fine.

[straykat]

That's why I said the system could be rebalanced. Of course Soldiers should have a significantly higher carry weight than any other class, being walking armories is their entire point. But I don't want them to go back to restrctions at all, that's just dumb and unimaginative design. Let the player have the freedom to at least use what weapon they want. If an Engineer wants to rock a Claymore, let them be. They will be inefficient, most likely, but that's fine.

 

It might be unimaginative, but it's just an abstraction.. It worked and it got the point across. 

 

Things are a bit tricky now with multiplayer and all of those unique classes. So they probably wouldn't go back to ME2 anyways.

[Laughing_Man]

...

 

As for ammo powers, there was a thread about that not too long ago. The general consensus is that if we take those away, we need to find something else to give to Soldiers that fits their class but isn't just rehashing Adrenaline Rush's "Shoot things better" mechanics.

 

Generally, I think that SP shouldn't as much about balance as MP (and horde mod also less than PvP, but that's another topic), so I don't really see the problem with giving Ryder access to some devastating combinations, it's SP. And if you really want a challenge, go for insanity.

(hopefully they will make that actually insanely difficult)

 

As for Soldier specific powers, well, they are supposed to be about mostly shooting anyway, right?

So give them a time-slowing adrenaline rush, grenades, and some tanking powers.

(And they should take notes from N7 Destroyer with his multi-grenades and micro-missile-launcher.)

[straykat]

I never liked the destroyer just for being slow.. but a missle launcher would be nice

[Laughing_Man]

I never liked the destroyer just for being slow.. but a missle launcher would be nice

 

I wouldn't mind a slightly slower character if they can enjoy the benefits of super-heavy armor...

(which can be another thing soldier class has access or training option for, and makes them unique)

[capn233]

But every other class is only about either simply shooting the enemy / stripping said protections / "summoning",

and their abilities are effective 100% of the time. (hell, Incinerate and Overload both strip defenses AND provide some CC)

 

Telling me to rely on an SMG or that I should use a particular squad-mate isn't really solving the problem.

 

You have freedom in ME2.  You don't have to use any particular squadmate.  You don't have to use an SMG.

 

I am telling you how to deal with protections.  Yes there are a limited number of ways.  Just as there are a limited number of ways to deal with health.

 

The comment about shooting and powers on other classes being effective 100% of the time is way too much a generalization.  You can use anything whenever you want, that doesn't mean that it is the most efficient, or even conducive to victory.

 

Overload is basically a waste of a cooldown on organic health.  Weapon overheat CC is so small to not matter on Insanity.  The enemies basically just instantly pop a new thermal clip.  It does 0 damage to organic health.

 

Incinerate can panic organics, but given that the armor multiplier is 2.4x, does it make sense to spam it on health?  Does it give you bonus weapon damage.  No.  Does it prime an explosion?  No.  Does it have twice the cooldown time as Pull?  Yes. It is not better than Adept CC against health, it is worse.

 

Does Cryo Blast work all of the time?  It does minimal damage to protections (incidentally not unlike Pull or Throw).  It is pretty similar to Pull, except the cooldown is 1.5s longer.

 

As it relates to this discussion, if you allowed ME2 Adept to ragdoll protected targets (it can already CC protected targets) it would be massively overpowered in that game.  You would have to strip out a bunch of bonuses (bye bye ragdoll bonus) and eliminate warp explosions altogether.

 

This is important for the theoretical Adept you are talking about because unless combat mechanics are a lot different than ME2 or ME3 an Adept that can ragdoll a room at will and apply a bunch of damage powers will be a balance problem, even if it has weapon restrictions.  This is especially true if enemy number and strength is such that CC not an afterthought as in ME3.  It would be basically DAO mage, which was about twice as effective as any other class in that game.

[Cyonan]

Generally, I think that SP shouldn't as much about balance as MP (and horde mod also less than PvP, but that's another topic), so I don't really see the problem with giving Ryder access to some devastating combinations, it's SP. And if you really want a challenge, go for insanity.

(hopefully they will make that actually insanely difficult)

 

As for Soldier specific powers, well, they are supposed to be about mostly shooting anyway, right?

So give them a time-slowing adrenaline rush, grenades, and some tanking powers.

(And they should take notes from N7 Destroyer with his multi-grenades and micro-missile-launcher.)

 

I'll always think balance is important. Maybe not as much so as in a PvP mode, but still important =P

 

Although restricting the player in abilities would allow for multiple builds within the same class, increasing replay value further while still getting what you want.

 

With Soldiers we still want to give them enough abilities to fill out their kits which means needing to replace their ammo powers with something. Adrenaline Rush already is both the offensive and defensive properties that you're talking about giving to the Soldier.

 

Also remember that we're trying to make each class unique, and everybody can already shoot stuff. The Soldier should be unique in their approach to this under this design philosophy.

 

The Hawk Missile Launcher is nice, though we'd still need to fill out the rest of the kit and the Soldier in ME3 already had grenades.

[capn233]

Hm... about your reply.

Are you speaking from a newbie point of view or as a pro?

 

Viewpoint of somebody with experience and knowledge of the mechanics.

 

The tutorial is probably not helpful.  Sadly the important information comes through the loading screen tips, although it is vague.

 

As far as power is concerned, while ease of play or complexity for a class is a consideration, I would hesitate to say it is directly related to class power.  When you start talking about power discussion, it should involve using the all the mechanics at the disposal of the player, which implies veteran players.  Not necessarily pro, but they should be informed.

[capn233]

I'll always think balance is important. Maybe not as much so as in a PvP mode, but still important =P

 

Although restricting the player in abilities would allow for multiple builds within the same class, increasing replay value further while still getting what you want.

 

Right.  I would like replayability for SP.  The best way to do this is to have decent differentiation of powers, the classes, and also reasonable balance.

[straykat]

I don't even know why I'm talking about soldiers. If I play this, it'd probably be an engineer. And I don't know a thing, firsthand. 

[Laughing_Man]

...

 

This is important for the theoretical Adept you are talking about because unless combat mechanics are a lot different than ME2 or ME3 an Adept that can ragdoll a room at will and apply a bunch of damage powers will be a balance problem, even if it has weapon restrictions.  This is especially true if enemy number and strength is such that CC not an afterthought as in ME3.  It would be basically DAO mage, which was about twice as effective as any other class in that game.

 

As for the first part, my point was that Engineer for example was much more well-rounded when it comes to the utility of their abilities.

Overload is great for shields (in ME3 it also has a stun), incinerate is great for armor and health and it also has CC value,

Cryo is more situational but still useful, and summons are simply fully effective all the time.

 

Sentinel is simply the god of ME2, even if a slightly boring god...

 

Soldiers and infiltrators just play the same, defenses or not.

 

Vanguard has amazing utility and combat advantages if you know how to use charge, it also makes the class unique and fun to play.

 

Adept either needs more variety and power in the casting of pure DPS, or more utility and CC that's effective against most enemies.

 

 

As for your last comment, there are valid lore reasons to make Mage classes and Biotic Classes simply stronger.

It's rather ridiculous if everyone else is just as powerful if not more, considering how supposedly special they are.

[Sartoz]

 Snip

(And they should take notes from N7 Destroyer with his multi-grenades and micro-missile-launcher.)

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I recently played as a N7 destroyer (1st time).  What's with the multi-grenades crap? You cannot throw them with any freaking accuracy !!! What's the point of having futuristic gear when you can't aim? A super ****** poor design. The only thing going for the class is rate of fire, weapon aim and weapon damage. And, how about that  ludicrous medieval looking armour? You can't move in that bloody thing.... it destroys the maneuverability of the soldier class. I haven't played with the micro-missle option but if multi-grenades is anything to go by, forget it.

 

Bio should go back and look at Starship Troopers armour design (not the movie but the cinematic videos). They are meant for defense and flexibility. Same with the Halo armours.

[straykat]

As for the first part, my point was that Engineer for example was much more well-rounded when it comes to the utility of their abilities.

Overload is great for shields (in ME3 it also has a stun), incinerate is great for armor and health and it also has CC value,

Cryo is more situational but still useful, and summons are simply fully effective all the time.

 

Sentinel is simply the god of ME2, even if a slightly boring god...

 

Soldiers and infiltrators just play the same, defenses or not.

 

Vanguard has amazing utility and combat advantages if you know how to use charge, it also makes the class unique and fun to play.

 

Adept either needs more variety and power in the casting of pure DPS, or more utility and CC that's effective against most enemies.

 

 

As for your last comment, there are valid lore reasons to make Mage classes and Biotic Classes simply stronger.

It's rather ridiculous if everyone else is just as powerful if not more, considering how supposedly special they are.

 

Even as a Soldier fan in the original series, I'd be fine with that. I never wanted soldiers to be powerful.. Like I said, I think their power would be in having a tool for everything. If anything, I'd want biotics to be awe-inspiring.

[Laughing_Man]

With Soldiers we still want to give them enough abilities to fill out their kits which means needing to replace their ammo powers with something. Adrenaline Rush already is both the offensive and defensive properties that you're talking about giving to the Soldier.

 

Also remember that we're trying to make each class unique, and everybody can already shoot stuff. The Soldier should be unique in their approach to this under this design philosophy.

 

An example for possible soldier power list: Adrenaline rush, fortification, Hawk missile launcher, grenade (possibly two types), flamethrower,

optional training for the use of slower but much sturdier super-heavy armor, and I'm sure I can find more ideas - ME3MP has some more possibilities.

 

As for the second point, that's my problem: "everyone is about shooting stuff", I would prefer classes to be more different than they are now.

[Laughing_Man]

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I recently played as a N7 destroyer (1st time).  What's with the multi-grenades crap? You cannot throw them with any freaking accuracy !!! What's the point of having futuristic gear when you can't aim? A super ****** poor design. The only thing going for the class is rate of fire, weapon aim and weapon damage. And, how about that  ludicrous medieval looking armour? You can't move in that bloody thing.... it destroys the maneuverability of the soldier class. I haven't played with the micro-missle option but if multi-grenades is anything to go by, forget it.

 

Bio should go back and look at Starship Troopers armour design (not the movie but the cinematic videos). They are meant for defense and flexibility. Same with the Halo armours.

 

The grenades could have been designed better, I agree.

But the Hawk missiles are much easier to use, you just switch them on, and they fire at a visible target every few seconds.

 

As for heavier and slower armor, I think that if such an armor offered a substantial increase in shields and HP to compensate,

it would have been a fun and valid option for the game, you will simply not have to take cover as much as other classes.

[Xen]

What is it with bad players and wanting an OP space mage? Adept is fine as is. Just play the game on Easy or Narrative Mode if you can't hack it. No need to break the game balance just so you can feel like you suck less.

 

Git gud

[Cyonan]

An example for possible soldier power list: Adrenaline rush, fortification, Hawk missile launcher, grenade (possibly two types), flamethrower,

optional training for the use of slower but much sturdier super-heavy armor, and I'm sure I can find more ideas - ME3MP has some more possibilities.

 

As for the second point, that's my problem: "everyone is about shooting stuff", I would prefer classes to be more different than they are now.

 

Flamer was another idea that came up as an idea for an alternative build to shooting stuff for Soldiers, which I'm not opposed to. Fortification isn't bad but on top of just being more DR on top of Adrenaline Rush it's functionally the same thing as Tech Armour which is Sentinel's iconic ability.

 

Although as I noted earlier in the thread, I think Sentinels suffer from not being unique more than any other class and certain things should happen for that regardless. The fact that Tech Armour isn't really a unique mechanic hurts them a lot in that area.

 

My point is that I don't think we should throw out existing viable builds in the pursuit of increasing playstyle variety. That seems kind of counter productive to the end goal. Plus while they could probably do things better, it's been noted not every class is just about shooting stuff and you can avoid guns entirely if you don't mind playing less than optimally.

 

I don't think you'll ever get away from the design of gunplay being a big part of optimal play for all the classes short of supporting a loadout that doesn't take a gun at all. Even the N7 Fury in MP should optimally use a hard hitting weapon in between Throw spam like the Talon or Paladin pistols.

[capn233]

As for your last comment, there are valid lore reasons to make Mage classes and Biotic Classes simply stronger.

It's rather ridiculous if everyone else is just as powerful if not more, considering how supposedly special they are.

 

Well I am not sure that any class should be hands down better than any other class.  This sort of works if the stronger class is more complicated and difficult to play, but not really sure there is a great way to do this with Adept except getting rid of any semblance of durability.  Whatever happens some folks aren't going to be happy.

[straykat]

What is it with bad players and wanting an OP space mage? Adept is fine as is. Just play the game on Easy or Narrative Mode if you can't hack it. No need to break the game balance just so you can feel like you suck less.

 

Well, that's a generalization. I just want biotics to be like their lore. i don't even play them myself.

 

And I'd rather see Insanity to be twice as hard, if you must know.

[capn233]

Flamer was another idea that came up as an idea for an alternative build to shooting stuff for Soldiers, which I'm not opposed to. Fortification isn't bad but on top of just being more DR on top of Adrenaline Rush it's functionally the same thing as Tech Armour which is Sentinel's iconic ability.

 

Although as I noted earlier in the thread, I think Sentinels suffer from not being unique more than any other class and certain things should happen for that regardless. The fact that Tech Armour isn't really a unique mechanic hurts them a lot in that area.

 

My point is that I don't think we should throw out existing viable builds in the pursuit of increasing playstyle variety. That seems kind of counter productive to the end goal. Plus while they could probably do things better, it's been noted not every class is just about shooting stuff and you can avoid guns entirely if you don't mind playing less than optimally.

 

I don't think you'll ever get away from the design of gunplay being a big part of optimal play for all the classes short of supporting a loadout that doesn't take a gun at all. Even the N7 Fury in MP should optimally use a hard hitting weapon in between Throw spam like the Talon or Paladin pistols.

 

But flamer is tech!  Purity of combat!

 

If Sentinel TA was more like the ME2 version, and Vanguard didn't have Nova, it would feel a lot more distinct.

[Laughing_Man]

What is it with bad players and wanting an OP space mage? Adept is fine as is. Just play the game on Easy or Narrative Mode if you can't hack it. No need to break the game balance just so you can feel like you suck less.

 

Git gud

 

Go rant about how Quarian engineer is so much better than paladin. Or something.

Much more fun, I promise.

 

Flamer was another idea that came up as an idea for an alternative build to shooting stuff for Soldiers, which I'm not opposed to. Fortification isn't bad but on top of just being more DR on top of Adrenaline Rush it's functionally the same thing as Tech Armour which is Sentinel's iconic ability.

 

...

 

I don't think you'll ever get away from the design of gunplay being a big part of optimal play for all the classes short of supporting a loadout that doesn't take a gun at all. Even the N7 Fury in MP should optimally use a hard hitting weapon in between Throw spam like the Talon or Paladin pistols.

 

By all means, I think that soldier should become the closest thing to a tank class. (or at least it should be an option to spec him like this)

 

 

The Fury needs guns only for when she can't get close enough for the Annihilation field to prime, you can even go for a build that gives her dark channel so you can trigger explosions at range too.

 

Still I don't really see why avoiding shooting is so unbelievable, you can *mostly* do it now, it's just not very effective.

More options to spec differently into such a playstyle wouldn't be such a stretch.

[Laughing_Man]

But flamer is tech!  Purity of combat!

 

Yeah... I wonder what all those soldiers from WW2 will have to say about that...