106 réponses à ce sujet

[Cyonan]

By all means, I think that soldier should become the closest thing to a tank class. (or at least it should be an option to spec him like this)

 

 

The Fury needs guns only for when she can't get close enough for the Annihilation field to prime, you can even go for a build that gives her dark channel so you can trigger explosions at range too.

 

Still I don't really see why avoiding shooting is so unbelievable, you can *mostly* do it now, it's just not very effective.

More options to spec differently into such a playstyle wouldn't be such a stretch.

 

The Vanguard is the current best tank in the game, which the Soldier would have a long ways to go to catch up to the ability to frequently regenerate 100% of your barriers. That also fits the Vanguard's design as a frontline fighter better than the Soldier as a weapon's platform in my opinion.

 

I use the Fury as an example because she's easily one of the best kits in ME3 MP for going "gunless", but even on her no matter your build you should still be using your gun on a regular basis. Even in close combat, you should use your pistol to get a shot or two off in between Throws.

 

The only way to remove that is to remove the gun itself, otherwise it will always be optimal to use it on a regular basis.

 

But flamer is tech!  Purity of combat!

 

If Sentinel TA was more like the ME2 version, and Vanguard didn't have Nova, it would feel a lot more distinct.

 

I think Nova just needs a reworking in general =P

[capn233]

Yeah... I wonder what all those soldiers from WW2 will have to say about that...

 

It was a tech power in ME3, and I don't think Soldier needs tech powers.  More to the point, Flamer seems just like a version of Incinerate really, and I don't think there needs to be a combat version of a tech power.  I would rather Flamer (or something like it) just become an evolution of Incinerate so those characters get a choice of how to implement their fire damage.

 

 

I think Nova just needs a reworking in general =P

 

I mostly still would rather it get pushed into Shockwave, and drop the idea of a shield based cooldown sidestep entirely.  Of course that doesn't make detonating TA all that distinct.

[Cyonan]

I mostly still would rather it get pushed into Shockwave, and drop the idea of a shield based cooldown sidestep entirely.  Of course that doesn't make detonating TA all that distinct.

 

As far as TA detonation you've still got Barrier to contend with as well which has a very similar detonation.

 

Though I agree that Nova would probably work better as a Shockwave evolution on the proper cooldown rather than what it was in ME3.

[capn233]

As far as TA detonation you've still got Barrier to contend with as well which has a very similar detonation.

 

Though I agree that Nova would probably work better as a Shockwave evolution on the proper cooldown rather than what it was in ME3.

 

Right, but why did Barrier need detonation in the first place?

 

I think they should stay away from making carbon copy versions of powers.  Barrier didn't need to turn into the biotic version of Tech Armor since there doesn't need to be a biotic version of Tech Armor. Of course they really didn't need to have a bunch of DR powers that only have slightly different secondary effects either.  At least not in single player.

[Cyonan]

Right, but why did Barrier need detonation in the first place?

 

I think they should stay away from making carbon copy versions of powers.  Barrier didn't need to turn into the biotic version of Tech Armor since there doesn't need to be a biotic version of Tech Armor. Of course they really didn't need to have a bunch of DR powers that only have slightly different secondary effects either.  At least not in single player.

 

My guess is that Barrier got a detonation for no reason other than "every other armour had a detonation effect, so let's give this one as well".

 

I wouldn't really be upset if all the armour abilities went away except Tech Armour, especially since I don't find them terribly exciting abilities to begin with.

[Gago]

The more biotic stuff the merrier. 

[Xen]

Go rant about how Quarian engineer is so much better than paladin. Or something.

Much more fun, I promise.

Calling out BKs for what they are is far more amusing. I see you didn't even try to respond to the fact that you want to dumb down biotics into ROFLstomp crutch kits, aimed at droolers who can't be bothered to L2P.

 

BTW I'll take the QFE and backpack you through the Thunderdome any day, scrub.

[10K]

But flamer is tech!  Purity of combat!
 
If Sentinel TA was more like the ME2 version, and Vanguard didn't have Nova, it would feel a lot more distinct.

My goodness yes. ME2 Vanguard just felt more balanced IMO, Shepard wasn't an unstoppable wrecking ball as he was in ME3. If you charged into a group of enemies in ME2 on insanity, you'd die. ME3 Vanguard threw caution to the wind with Nova. But caution and thinking about who to charge, before doing it, was the fun and purpose of playing Vanguard. Now Vanguards are reduced to the player using charge and Nova mindlessly, without any consequences or use of their teammates.

Edit: I also agree with Sentinel TA in ME2. It was so much better and made more sense.

[Xtreme-Void]

I like a possible and effective build for pure mage/biotic.

[capn233]

I guess the question is what's the definition of effective?

 

I would say ME3 fits the bill of effective no-shots-fired "casters" pretty clearly, but I have all sorts of gripes with the overall combat system.  ME2 Adept would be a little harder, but still be ok with no-shots-fired, as would Engineer, Sentinel (due to glitch), and Infiltrator wouldn't be horrible.  Vanguard would need to be played completely different, and Soldier would be somewhat terrible unless you abuse a bonus power (even Reave Soldier is pretty non-ideal no-shots allowed).  ME1 of course is the worst for no-shots-fired since power damage is almost non-existent.

 

PRS in ME3 wasn't effective for balancing guns and powers.  The system is theoretically capable of such, but would need a whole lot of changes to weapon and power stats from where they are.  There are a whole lot of guns that punched above their weight class, so to speak.  And a lot drastically so.  And annoyingly enough nearly all of these are very light weapons.  So they end up buffing powers.

[Xtreme-Void]

I mean a standard mage build, that have : 

- High damage single target

- Medium damage AoE

- Crowd control

Yes, pure mean no shot need to be fired as much as possible and balance between biotic build and guns.

[Laughing_Man]

I see you didn't even try to respond to the fact that you want to dumb down biotics into ROFLstomp crutch kits,

 

I guess I just care about different things than you, more about lore and theme than about one-upping 12yo on horde mod.

(or jumping into threads that I don't care about just to troll - both are rather similar hobbies)

 

The Vanguard is the current best tank in the game, which the Soldier would have a long ways to go to catch up to the ability to frequently regenerate 100% of your barriers. That also fits the Vanguard's design as a frontline fighter better than the Soldier as a weapon's platform in my opinion.

 

I use the Fury as an example because she's easily one of the best kits in ME3 MP for going "gunless", but even on her no matter your build you should still be using your gun on a regular basis. Even in close combat, you should use your pistol to get a shot or two off in between Throws.

 

The Vanguard is more a "twitch tank" than the traditional meaning of the word, you have high survive-ability as long as you continuously perform your mad jumping and exploding, and it seems to be more of an exploit than a balanced mechanic that makes sense. (or rather a mechanic that got a little bit out of hand...)

 

In TOR, the soldier / bounty hunter class have two evolution paths each (three actually, but that's not the point), you can either be a ranged DPS commando, or you can be a tank with heavy armor and heavy shields, capable of surviving almost anything.

 

I think that implementing those two paths into the ME soldier class could be interesting and add more variety.

 

The way I imagine the "tank" soldier, is using a slower heavier armor and laying suppressing fire with his LMG,

his "unique" features would be using heavy weapons, and treating cover as mostly optional unless something really hits the fan.

[Cyonan]

The Vanguard is more a "twitch tank" than the traditional meaning of the word, you have high survive-ability as long as you continuously perform your mad jumping and exploding, and it seems to be more of an exploit than a balanced mechanic that makes sense. (or rather a mechanic that got a little bit out of hand...)

 

In TOR, the soldier / bounty hunter class have two evolution paths each (three actually, but that's not the point), you can either be a ranged DPS commando, or you can be a tank with heavy armor and heavy shields, capable of surviving almost anything.

 

I think that implementing those two paths into the ME soldier class could be interesting and add more variety.

 

The way I imagine the "tank" soldier, is using a slower heavier armor and laying suppressing fire with his LMG,

his "unique" features would be using heavy weapons, and treating cover as mostly optional unless something really hits the fan.

 

The only real thing that could be considered an exploit with Vanguards is animation cancelling on Nova, but that's not needed to actually become invincible. A basic rotation of Biotic Charge->Nova will do with a second Nova thrown in for Half Blast builds, which I have to believe that they intended for that to happen.

 

What they probably didn't intend was how absurdly OP that is to the point where only a sync kill can take me down.

 

It's been a long time since I played ToR so I don't know if they still follow the design of "walking wall of armour that is really only hitting buttons for the sake of holding threat" or if they got changed to a more active mitigation style of tanking like Blizzard did to tanks in WoW.

 

A Soldier could be one that just shrugs off bullets although admittedly that's also kind of Sentinel's job with Tech Armour making them better defensively. Especially if we're going to hit non Tech Armour abilities of the same mechanics in an effort to make the Sentinel more unique.

 

Although I would still say that Soldier/Sentinel need better shield regen if they want to be in the same class as the Vanguard when it comes to tanking. Adrenaline Rush, not even the buffed up MP variant, isn't good enough regen to compete with Biotic Charge even if they do remove Nova entirely.

 

A nerfed version of the Stim Packs from the Turian Havoc and Ghost kits from ME3 MP might work.

[capn233]

If Soldier is supposed to go back to the tank, then yes he needs a lot more tanking skill.  SP Soldier gets a whole 25% DR, which is pathetic honestly.  If Adrenaline Rush is split / modded such that it is just the "physical prowess" power, then it needs to go back to near Immunity level damage protection (80% from Master is probably excessive, unless duration is short or cooldown is really long, or enemies have huge damage attacks as in ME1).

 

Of course if Soldier is supposed to be the tank, then you have to decide what Sentinel is supposed to be.  ME1 was the only title where Soldier was really the best tank, and in that game the only thing I can think of to call Sentinel was "tech-biotic hybrid."  It was supposed to be a jack of all trades with a bit of "medic" thrown in, but I think a medic class would be more out of place now then it was back then.

 

Alternatively, if Sentinel goes back to being the best tank, perhaps Soldier should just be focused on consistent weapon dps with a side of tankiness.  Then Infiltrator needs to get decent spike damage, but lower average weapon dps than Soldier.   This wouldn't be unprecedented of course, ME1 Soldier had a few percent higher weapon damage than Infiltrator, although heat bonus let Infiltrator push Marksman a little further.  ME2 was more or less the same.

[Laughing_Man]

You probably won't agree with me, but I don't think that sentinel is a real tank even with TA.

 

The amount of damage mitigation it has is only enough to allow for a slightly slower play-style or cover for a mistake or two,

but not enough to really change the play style at its core from other classes.

 

What makes sentinel unique right now, is still his mix of tech and biotic powers.

 

So less tank, more a slightly sturdier jack of all trades. (destroyer of protections)

[Cyonan]

You probably won't agree with me, but I don't think that sentinel is a real tank even with TA.

 

The amount of damage mitigation it has is only enough to allow for a slightly slower play-style or cover for a mistake or two,

but not enough to really change the play style at its core from other classes.

 

What makes sentinel unique right now, is still his mix of tech and biotic powers.

 

So less tank, more a slightly sturdier jack of all trades. (destroyer of protections)

 

I don't think Soldier was a real tank either in Mass Effect 2 and 3. Adrenaline Rush doesn't provide enough damage reduction in SP, and not even in ME3 MP which has buffed up numbers in order to surpass Tech Armour in ME2 or Tech Armour + Barrier/Fortification in ME3.

 

Sentinel is arguably the best tank in Mass Effect 2 since Tech Armour still regenerated shields at the time. It lost that in Mass Effect 3, leaving the spot open for the Nova spamming Vanguards.

 

Having a mix of tech and biotics doesn't make them unique. It just makes them the love child of an Adept and an Engineer and they exist almost entirely of mechanics taken from other classes.

 

Wasn't the whole point of this thread that you didn't like classes having very similar mechanics? The Sentinel is basically the definition of that type of design right now especially since its iconic ability is a mechanic shared by half a dozen other abilities available to every other class.

[Laughing_Man]

Wasn't the whole point of this thread that you didn't like classes having very similar mechanics? The Sentinel is basically the definition of that type of design right now especially since its iconic ability is a mechanic shared by half a dozen other abilities available to every other class.

 

And indeed I don't like sentinel really, it's a very efficient yet boring class.

 

I did like some MP versions of the sentinel archetype, but most of them are tech only, so I guess you could call them engineers...

[Laughing_Man]

It was a tech power in ME3, and I don't think Soldier needs tech powers.

 

What if instead of active powers you could get training for specific exotic weapons, like an actual flamer?

[capn233]

What if instead of active powers you could get training for specific exotic weapons, like an actual flamer?

 
I don't know, I am not the biggest fan of heavy weapons in concept.  Or the execution really.

In ME2 the Revenant w/ Inferno Ammo was a better flamethrower than the Firestorm really.

 

You probably won't agree with me, but I don't think that sentinel is a real tank even with TA.

 

 

I don't think Soldier was a real tank either in Mass Effect 2 and 3. Adrenaline Rush doesn't provide enough damage reduction in SP, and not even in ME3 MP which has buffed up numbers in order to surpass Tech Armour in ME2 or Tech Armour + Barrier/Fortification in ME3.

 

Sentinel is arguably the best tank in Mass Effect 2 since Tech Armour still regenerated shields at the time. It lost that in Mass Effect 3, leaving the spot open for the Nova spamming Vanguards.

 

Sentinel is certainly the best tank in ME2, especially if somebody knows that Assault Armor is much better than Power Armor.  Even with Hardened Adrenaline Rush, Soldier doesn't quite have the same amount of durability.  Hardened AR only applies to health, which makes it a whole lot like Immunity, the difference is that with shieldgate in ME2 max shields is probably a bit better (flip flopping the importance from ME1 where Damage Protection was usually "better").

 

As far as ME3 is concerned, SP it starts to be debatable.  I would definitely say Vanguard is more powerful than Sentinel, but if you take Fortification on Sentinel you have permanent 90% DR, and with Heavy Melee (Fitness 6 Melee) can hit over 100%, making you immune if you jump into cover.  Vanguard needs to keep charging to maintain his DR, which is going to mean encumbrance affects tankiness to an extent.  Sentinel is probably closer to the tank archetype than Vanguard, even if Vanguard can hypothetically be damage immune indefinitely.

[straykat]

I never even conceived of Soldiers as Tanks.. despite the health. If there are tanks at all, in this game.. I don't really understand the concept here. But I'll give that to Sentinel, I guess.

 

The soldier's strength was his toolset... like I've said a few times.

 

 

As for Vanguard, they make ME feel like a single character game to me. There's no bunkering down or tactics with your squad.. there's just distance and hopping around beating ass, mostly in your own little world. And you're mostly survivable doing it too.

[capn233]

I never even conceived of Soldiers as Tanks.. despite the health. If there are tanks at all, in this game.. I don't really understand the concept here. But I'll give that to Sentinel, I guess.

 

Soldier was definitely a tank in ME1, it was just that you also happened to have a bit more weapon damage than other classes.  Rockets to the face, snipers, didn't matter. 

 

edit:  And by a bit I mean it really was more or less a bit.  You had all the weapon talents, but any class that had the weapon talent had the same bonus damage from that (except Sentinel who had Elkoss Pistol Training).  The difference was just Assault Training and possibly Commando.

[straykat]

Soldier was definitely a tank in ME1, it was just that you also happened to have a bit more weapon damage than other classes.  Rockets to the face, snipers, didn't matter. 

 

Rockets mattered to me. Those things alone always made it the hardest game of the bunch.

 

Not necessarily the most fun, but harder.

[capn233]

Rockets mattered to me. Those things alone always made it the hardest game of the bunch.

 

Not necessarily the most fun, but harder.

 

Heh well that is why Soldier is good.  Master Immunity for 80% Damage Protection.

 

Oh and slap on Colossus for 76+.  Then you have 5.5 health regen from Soldier, and 4.5x2 from Med Exos.  Or 23% Damage Protection x2 from Energized Plating.

[straykat]

Heh well that is why Soldier is good.  Master Immunity for 80% Damage Protection.

 

Oh and slap on Colossus for 76+.  Then you have 5.5 health regen from Soldier, and 4.5x2 from Med Exos.  Or 23% Damage Protection x2 from Energized Plating.

 

Yeah, it's starting to get better with immunity on my newest playthrough.

 

I'm starting from scratch on PC, so I have no bonuses, etc.. and finished EDI's Luna mission recently. I didn't have immunity at the time. And this was just normal mode. I actually had to reload like 5 or 6 times.

[capn233]

Yeah, it's starting to get better with immunity on my newest playthrough.

 

I'm starting from scratch on PC, so I have no bonuses, etc.. and finished EDI's Luna mission recently. And this was just normal mode. I actually had to reload like 5 or 6 times.

 

Luna is a PITA, I like to just take Garrus and Tali and try to tech mine all over the place.  Really most of the side missions end up harder than the main quests, except perhaps the boss fights.  Geth have hardly any special abilities, unlike all the dumb "biotic extremists" spamming knockdown or immunity.

 

My first character was a Soldier, and I don't think I used immunity because I didn't know how good it was.  You would think the name would give it away.  But I am pretty sure I hit it and saw my shields dropping and thought "this power doesn't work!"  Of course damage protection is for health not shields.