174 respuestas en este tema

[Akiza]

Which companions do you consider to be a traitor or that  can be classified as such?

[Donquijote and 59 others]

They are all potential traitors since they can turn on you or leave you and breaking your trust whenever they feel the need to do so except for the dog and Loghain when he become a companion so after his recruitment because before he was the biggest of them all.

 

 

My rule is this don't come into my group unless you want to follow me in my quest

if you are starting instead to have bellyache for your own belief  or plans in order to pursue your own agendas please do so but  without using me as your personal instrument and that foolish of Morrigan was the worst of them all in this regard wanting to use the boss for her plan?

Please get the knife  in WH  and get out of my sight before i unsheathe even my axe.

[Ghost Gal]

Loghain, who actually committed treason and abandoned his allies to die after promising aid. 

 

The rest? Not so much. They aren't your vassals or servants, they're companions conditionally following you under the common goal of stopping the Blight. If you do enough things they find morally reprehensible, and/or treat them badly enough, they aren't obligated to stay with you when they find you to be the worst person ever. 

[capn233]

Hmmm.  I guess Morrigan was one since she turned her back on the Peacekeepers.

 

Leliana betrayed Orlais, although Leliana's Song makes this story somewhat convoluted, so I don't know.

 

Zevran betrays the Crows.

 

Wynne sort of betrays the Circle and Chantry after becoming an abomination.

 

Sten betrays the Qun when he loses control of himself and kills the peasants.

 

Shale betrayed her former master.

 

Oghren betrayed Branka.

 

Alistair... betrays the Templars if you get his approval high enough.

[Catilina]

Hmmm.  I guess Morrigan was one since she turned her back on the Peacekeepers.

Leliana betrayed Orlais, although Leliana's Song makes this story somewhat convoluted, so I don't know.

Zevran betrays the Crows.

Wynne sort of betrays the Circle and Chantry after becoming an abomination.

Sten betrays the Qun when he loses control of himself and kills the peasants.

Shale betrayed her former master.

Oghren betrayed Branka.

Alistair... betrays the Templars if you get his approval high enough.

Wynne do not betrayed the Circle and the Chantry.

How Shale betrayed* her former master? How can a slave "betray" his master? A slave can't "betray" his master, because it is natural if a slave is not loyal to his master. Why would that be? Illogical. I think. A tool can't be loyal. You can not expect from them. The respect and loyalty has to be earned. A slave owner is rarely deserve his/her slave's respect and loyalty. (Otherwise, She not 'betrayed', but also killed Wilhelm.)

Branka betrayed Oghren.

 

*Betrayal is not the right word. Revolt, revenge is the right word, if we speak about a slave or a captive, who killed his/her master or captor.

Editado por Catilina, 12 julio 2016 - 02:58 .

[Lazarillo]

How Shale betrayed her former master? How can a slave "betray" his master? A slave can't "betray" his master, because it is natural if a slave is not loyal to his master. Why would that be? Illogical. I think. A tool can't be loyal. You can not expect from them.

If you read between the lines, Shale probably actually didn't hate Wilhelm quite as much as she claimed to, and it seems likely she killed him by accident anyway. Either way, still not really betrayal though, true.

[Catilina]

If you read between the lines, Shale probably actually didn't hate Wilhelm quite as much as she claimed to, and it seems likely she killed him by accident anyway. Either way, still not really betrayal though, true.

Maybe was accident, but she quite hated Wilhelm. (True, she hated the pigeons more than Wilhelm.)

[Tidus]

There's only one traitor Loghain. Not only did he betray his King and Queen but, his country too. He was the Darkspawn biggest ally. Had he killed the last two wardens in Ferelden he would have handed Ferelden to the Darkspawn on a silver platter. The South had already fallen to the blight and all he was concern about was killing the wardens.

 

Loghain's lunacy reminds me of Hitler. During the Landsmeet I was half expecting him to say "Ser Cauthrein's counter attack will drive the Darkspawn from the Southern Hills".

[Catilina]

There's only one traitor Loghain. Not only did he betray his King and Queen but, his country too. He was the Darkspawn biggest ally. Had he killed the last two wardens in Ferelden he would have handed Ferelden to the Darkspawn on a silver platter. The South had already fallen to the blight and all he was concern about was killing the wardens.

 

Loghain's lunacy reminds me of Hitler. During the Landsmeet I was half expecting him to say "Ser Cauthrein's counter attack will drive the Darkspawn from the Southern Hills".

I roughly agree with you, except that the Hitler-analogy are not the best: Loghain was a decent person before he became paranoid. I think, for example Tiberius Caesar better fit the analogy.

[Tidus]

Catlina, Like Hitler in the bunker scene from the movie "Downfall" Loghain was to busy ranting about the wardens and the Orlisians (Hitler ranted about his Generals) to see the real threat was the blight and how close the end of Ferelden was. The Southern Hills fell,Darkspawn was marching on Redcliff and would split and the main force would head for Denerim.

 

All of this was caused by one traitor Loghain.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

 

 

The rest? Not so much. They aren't your vassals or servants, they're companions conditionally following you under the common goal of stopping the Blight. If you do enough things they find morally reprehensible, and/or treat them badly enough, they aren't obligated to stay with you when they find you to be the worst person ever. 

I heard this excuse long enough in bsn

 

They should not plot against me to kill me or plot against me  to use me when they feel the need to do so this is by definition betrayal of trust because everything they do they do even if they are +100 approval and were treated well by the warden.

if they do something against me at -100 approval no problem  but if they do that even when they are friends then it's a betrayal.

[Secret Rare]

If someone has a rationale as for why someone in my list shouldn't be considered a traitor under specific circumstances or if i should consider even the others that are not in my list as such i'm all ears.

 

 

 

-Leliana want to kill me at +100 approval? she is a traitor.

-Zevran want to kill me again with Talisen after i spared him?He is a traitor.

-Alistair want to abandon me as a GW?He is a traitor.

-Wynne want to kill me at +100 approval after i saved her?she is a traitor

-Sten want to kill me in Haven after his oath?He is a traitor.

-Morrigan

(Deceived me  and  plotted to join my party to use me for her own ends and used me against Flemeth with deception and didn't even maintained her word for help agaisnt the blight when i gave her the 1st grimoire in the tower and later in Wh even betrays my people by stealing from them?She is a traitor.)

-Loghain traitor for the nation  for the whole issue with the elves and for allowing Tevinter in Denerim.

 

Dog.Oghren and Shale aren't in the list.

Dog does nothing,Oghren attempt to attack you only with very low approval because you trated him very bad and Shale said that she wanted answers so she posed a condition to join your party if you kill Caradin you are breaking you own words.

 

As for my world-state i did nothing to leliana,Sten,Zevran and Wynne since i had nothing to gain in taking choices that disagreed with them.

[Akiza]

Hmmm.  I guess Morrigan was one since she turned her back on the Peacekeepers.

 

Leliana betrayed Orlais, although Leliana's Song makes this story somewhat convoluted, so I don't know.

 

Zevran betrays the Crows.

 

Wynne sort of betrays the Circle and Chantry after becoming an abomination.

 

Sten betrays the Qun when he loses control of himself and kills the peasants.

 

Shale betrayed her former master.

 

Oghren betrayed Branka.

 

Alistair... betrays the Templars if you get his approval high enough.

I only meant toward the PC not the others organizations.

[Qun00]

Loghain, who actually committed treason and abandoned his allies to die after promising aid.

The rest? Not so much. They aren't your vassals or servants, they're companions conditionally following you under the common goal of stopping the Blight. If you do enough things they find morally reprehensible, and/or treat them badly enough, they aren't obligated to stay with you when they find you to be the worst person ever.

Indeed. The only example of betrayal I can think of is Alistair's. But even then he is only a traitor to the Order, not you specifically.

Morrigan deserves her share of criticism because while she is free to leave, her reason to do it was petty. "You don't want to give me what I came for? Then I won't stay one second longer!"

[Tidus]

Akiza,In my 23 games I never had anybody to betray my warden. Even Morrigan stayed and help take out the AD.

 

Well,  in my first 2 games Sten tried a coup but,failed.The first time I sent him packing second time he got back in line. Now I no longer recruit him since I rarely used him.

[Qis]

None of them are traitors, they all follow you willingly and they are free to leave

 

For me, traitors are the one who sabotage the cause, that is to help The Warden defeat The Blight, none of the companions do that

 

Loghain is not a companion until a plot, when he's a companion he don't betray The Warden to the end

[German Soldier]

Indeed. The only example of betrayal I can think of is Alistair's. But even then he is only a traitor to the Order, not you specifically.

Morrigan deserves her share of criticism because while she is free to leave, her reason to do it was petty. "You don't want to give me what I came for? Then I won't stay one second longer!"

The issue with Alistair is with the order but it remains a form of desertion so is also a personal betrayal for the PC who is a grey warden and represent the order.

 

The issue with Morrigan continue in WH if you are an elf or  you are attached to the  elves,since the Dalish are somehow all part of the same people and a robbery commited against a clan can be considered a form of offense for the warden so to the whole DAO issue you can add this.

Akiza,In my 23 games I never had anybody to betray my warden. Even Morrigan stayed and help take out the AD.

 

 

I played DAO only once and never took that  DR  i have no desire to use a child as a lab rat since i'm a very moral person.

 

None of them are traitors, they all follow you willingly and they are free to leave

 

For me, traitors are the one who sabotage the cause, that is to help The Warden defeat The Blight, none of the companions do that

 

Loghain is not a companion until a plot, when he's a companion he don't betray The Warden to the end

 

Disagree.

The companions who attempted to kill the warden(they are many) are traitors since they were akin to sabotage the mission,the companions that like Morrigan attempted to use the warden to diverge the mission can be considered traitors as well in fact Gaider provided the option to call her traitor in Wh.

[Deadly dwarf]

Hmmm.  I guess Morrigan was one since she turned her back on the Peacekeepers.

 

Leliana betrayed Orlais, although Leliana's Song makes this story somewhat convoluted, so I don't know.

 

Zevran betrays the Crows.

 

Wynne sort of betrays the Circle and Chantry after becoming an abomination.

 

Sten betrays the Qun when he loses control of himself and kills the peasants.

 

Shale betrayed her former master.

 

Oghren betrayed Branka.

 

Alistair... betrays the Templars if you get his approval high enough.

 

Regarding Morrigan, if you refuse the DR, she abandons you regardless of how friendly you are with her at the time.  I felt betrayed when she did that to me, though it does indicate that she was never really loyal to you and your cause in the first place.

 

I would let Leliana off the hook regarding her pre-Blight activities.  She was a bard and as such, her allegiance was to whichever noble employed her.  In her case, she was under the tutelage of Marjolene, who betrayed her.  Of all your companions, her motivation in joining you seems the most pure except for Wynne and Dog.

 

Zevran actually turned on me once when I didn't build up his favorability.  When I do try to build up favorables with him, he's as loyal as they come.  Regarding the Crows, what he says early on makes perfect sense.  He didn't ask for that life, he was purchased.  And once he fails to kill the Warden, he's as good as dead with respect to the Crows and thus, his willingness to change sides.

 

Wynne is an interesting "sort of."  She remains devoted to her ideals regarding the Circle and the Chantry and is initially troubled by her new situation and the question of whether or not she is now an abomination.  My Wardens generally advise her that if one retains one's humanity, one is not an abomination.

 

I'm not sure Sten's massacre counts as a betrayal.  It's actually the result of his obsessive loyalty to the Qun's ideas.  I was annoyed that he turned on me at Haven, though that seems dialog driven.  (Treat him like a soldier and all is well.  Try to convince him via rational argument and....)

 

As to Shale, I'm not sure she killed Wilhelm.  I think the imprisoned demon made it happen one way or another.  It doesn't make sense that Shale would be able to ignore a working control rod and then be frozen for decades.   Has there ever been clarity on what broke Shale's control rod?

 

As to Oghren, Branka betrayed him first when she cheated on him and abandoned him.

 

I would agree on Alistair.  One could argue that Alistair betrays you if you take Loghain into the Wardens, but he would argue that it is you (the PC) who's betraying him, Duncan, and Cailan by taking in a traitor.

There's only one traitor Loghain. Not only did he betray his King and Queen but, his country too. He was the Darkspawn biggest ally. Had he killed the last two wardens in Ferelden he would have handed Ferelden to the Darkspawn on a silver platter. The South had already fallen to the blight and all he was concern about was killing the wardens.

 

Loghain's lunacy reminds me of Hitler. During the Landsmeet I was half expecting him to say "Ser Cauthrein's counter attack will drive the Darkspawn from the Southern Hills".

 

Yes, I would agree.  The big moral question that runs through DAO is "Do the ends justify the means?"  The Wardens will recruit questionable characters and even use blood magic to achieve their ends.  The PC would have a small team indeed if he/she didn't accept the allegiance of some questionable characters.  In Loghain's case, he takes this to extremes in his effort to build a force capable of withstanding the Blight without the help of the Orlesians or the Wardens.  In his case, his plan cannot work because the Wardens are indispensable to killing the AD.  But Loghain doesn't know this.  (Just curious:  for those who've recruited Loghain, does he express regret over this?)  In some ways, I would fault Duncan for not taking Cailan and Loghain into his confidence regarding this.  If he had, maybe they wouldn't have adopted a strategy that would've squandered the few Wardens Ferelden had in an offensive against Hurlocks and Gemlocks.  Perhaps Cailan wouldn't have been so eager to put himself at the very frontline if he couldn't fight alongside the Wardens.  Loghain's scheming might have ended at that point.  As things work out, Loghain has a part in almost every non-Darkspawn problem in Thedas, making him the biggest traitor.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

 

Loghain is not a companion until a plot, when he's a companion he don't betray The Warden to the end

Here agree.

Loghain is an enemy not a companion of your party until you recruit him it's like calling Corypheus a traitor because he is the villain.

[Deadly dwarf]

Here agree.

Loghain is an enemy not a companion of your party until you recruit him it's like calling Corypheus a traitor because he is the villain.

 

In terms of Ostagar, he's a traitor.  Loghain agreed to a war plan that would have his forces conduct a flanking movement against the Darkspawn forces engaging Cailan's army.  Instead of responding to the signal from the Tower of Ishal as previously agreed, he retreated and left King Cailan to die, not to mention the bulk of Ferelden's Grey Wardens.  He's a traitor as well as a villain.

[Secret Rare]

Morrigan deserves her share of criticism because while she is free to leave, her reason to do it was petty. "You don't want to give me what I came for? Then I won't stay one second longer!"

I consider her action to leave the warden a petty betrayal because she promised help in return for the first Grimoire located in the circle tower

"yes with her own words" but then  she left before of the major battle against the blight.

[Secret Rare]

In terms of Ostagar, he's a traitor.  Loghain agreed to a war plan that would have his forces conduct a flanking movement against the Darkspawn forces engaging Cailan's army.  Instead of responding to the signal from the Tower of Ishal as previously agreed, he retreated and left King Cailan to die, not to mention the bulk of Ferelden's Grey Wardens.  He's a traitor as well as a villain.

He is not a traitor for Ostagar because even if he agreed to a plan that plan was disrupted by those who lighted the beacon too late so he simply modified the plan since it was too late too act according to his previous plan.

 

Loghain did not performed any betrayal at Ostagar his actions of betrayals are against the law and they happen after Ostagar in fact you can't accuse him for Ostagar at the landsmeet because if you do so you lose, you win the landsmeet if you are clever and use more solid accusations.

[Tidus]

German Soldier, In real life I have pretty good overall morals but,in DA:O I can get into my character Tidus or Camin (both CEs) that knows all to well dying won't change a thing for the Elves. After all while he/she was out gathering a Army to fight the blight his home was purged and his friends and family sold into slavery plus assassins  was sent to kill him/her and Alistair.

 

You still think Tidus or Camin is willing to die when Morrigan offers a way out?  Camin would easily talk Alistair into doing the DR. 

 

Camin also knows she could never  be the Queen simply because Ferelden would never allow a Elf to be Queen and they would revolt.

[Deadly dwarf]

I consider her action to leave the warden a petty betrayal because she promised help in return for the first Grimoire located in the circle tower

"yes with her own words" but then  she left before of the major battle against the blight.

Morrigan clearly has selfish reasons for following the Warden as long as she does.  She clearly doesn't care about people.  Even if you kill Flemeth for her, she still will abandon you if you don't do the DR.  Definitely a very personal betrayal for the warden that tries to befriend her.

 

He is not a traitor for Ostagar because even if he agreed to a plan that plan was disrupted by those who lighted the beacon too late so he simply modified the plan since it was too late too act according to his previous plan.

 

Loghain did not performed any betrayal at Ostagar his actions of betrayals are against the law and they happen after Ostagar in fact you can't accuse him for Ostagar at the landsmeet because if you do so you lose, you win the landsmeet if you are clever and use more solid accusations.

 

To your first point, this one is intentionally left debatable by the developers.  In DAI, Solas talks of his visions of the battle of Ostagar seen during dreams in the Fade.  Some of the visions paint Loghain as a traitor.  In others, he's the cautious commander who refuses to commit his troops to a lost cause.  The point I would make is that if Loghain is close enough to the  battle to see that Cailan's forces are doomed, then he should've been  close enough to see Duncan's signal even without the lighting of the tower signal.  Having read "Stolen Throne," I couldn't help but think of a similar situation where Rowan - Cailan's mother - rescued Loghain annihilation.  Loghain did not repay the favor.

 

To your second point, some of Loghain's betrayals are in the works even before Ostagar.  Arl Eamon's poisoning occurs before the battle.  He's also been negotiating with Mages like Uldred.  He's also possibly an accomplice to Howe's massacre of the Couslands.  What exactly was he planning?  A coup?  Or did he count on Cailan's romantic notions of war to eliminate him from the picture?

[Tidus]

There's no doubt Loghain betrayed his King,Queen,and country while ordering the deaths of the Couslands,the poisoning of Arl Eamond, agreed to help the mages revolt and hired assassins to eliminate the last two wardens in Ferelden. When his civil war funds started getting low he turn to Tevinter slavers  and sold Elves into slavery. He imprison his own daughter the Queen and seized the throne.

 

Even his right hand captain Ser Cauthrein seen Loghain changed and stands down instead of attacking the Warden.I have no doubt she was ordered by Loghain to  stop the Warden before the Landsmeet.

 

Loghain even turned against his flunky Howe during the Landsmeet. Howe just obey his master and was handsomely rewarded.

 

In my games he will pay for his crimes especially for attempted murder on  my Warden and selling his/her friends and family into slavery. Yup,the last thing old Loghain sees is the fiery hate filled green eyes  of  Tidus or Camin.