Questa discussione ha avuto 173 risposte

[Secret Rare]

 

 

 

To your first point, this one is intentionally left debatable by the developers.  In DAI, Solas talks of his visions of the battle of Ostagar seen during dreams in the Fade.  Some of the visions paint Loghain as a traitor.  In others, he's the cautious commander who refuses to commit his troops to a lost cause.  The point I would make is that if Loghain is close enough to the  battle to see that Cailan's forces are doomed, then he should've been  close enough to see Duncan's signal even without the lighting of the tower signal.  Having read "Stolen Throne," I couldn't help but think of a similar situation where Rowan - Cailan's mother - rescued Loghain annihilation.  Loghain did not repay the favor.

 

To your second point, some of Loghain's betrayals are in the works even before Ostagar.  Arl Eamon's poisoning occurs before the battle.  He's also been negotiating with Mages like Uldred.  He's also possibly an accomplice to Howe's massacre of the Couslands.  What exactly was he planning?  A coup?  Or did he count on Cailan's romantic notions of war to eliminate him from the picture?

The vision of Solas in DAI do not paint Loghain act of retreat as treason quite the opposite since Solas agreed with him.

 

Eamon is poisoned after Ostagar by Jowan not before

 

Loghain couldn't have charged because he would have been sandwiched by the darkspawns.

http://social.biowar...308/blog/10285/

 

Gaider said that Loghain has nothing to do with the Cousland and Howe.

 

I'm not defending Loghain but just pointed out that the only true evidence against him are the act of breaking the laws(Eamon,Anora,the elves) which is something even our warden may have done.

[Catilina]

[...]

I'm not defending Loghain but just pointed out that the only true evidence against him are the act of breaking the laws(Eamon,Anora,the elves) which is something even our warden may have done.

It would be difficult to defend a man who sold people into slavery who are under his  protection. If in the other all thing he is innocent, this fact is more than enough for a death sentence, I think.

[Tidus]

Secrete Rare,Maybe  your warden but,all three of my wardens are Elves

 

Tidus and Camin are CEs. Rumor has it Camin may be a member of  Denerim's  Headhunters that deal justice to those that harm Elves. It is rumored she was in on the assassination of a Orlesian  Noble that beat a 14 year old  Elf servant to death.

 

Chasha is a circle mage.

[Zero]

-Sten want to kill me in Haven after his oath?He is a traitor.

Sten only attacks you if you have low approval with him. Be good with him, and he only says that he don't see the trip to Haven as the best course of action in a war, but will not attack you.

 

In his case, is the same as Ohgren. Treat him well, and he will trust you will his life (actual dialogue option in that conversation in Haven). Treat him like a sh*t, and he will attack you.

[Domakir]

Sten only attacks you if you have low approval with him. Be good with him, and he only says that he don't see the trip to Haven as the best course of action in a war, but will not attack you.

In his case, is the same as Ohgren. Treat him well, and he will trust you will his life (actual dialogue option in that conversation in Haven). Treat him like a sh*t, and he will attack you.

The same could be said about any companion except Morrigan with the DR and Alistair at the Landsmeet.
Leliana perhaps with the ashes but I see that as an act of fanaticism more than a treason.

[Heimerdinger]

From the Warden's perspective, none. It's not like any of these characters were sworn to the Warden for life, they joined freely for their own reasons and have their own motivations.

[Tidus]

Other then Sten none of my companions attacked me.. None of my Elven warden has any real use for human ashes and would have never looked for them wasn't for  needing  a pinch for Eamon..  Alistair never attacks me at the Landsmeet because  my Wardens kills Loghain for his crimes especially for selling his family and friends into slavery and sending a assassin to kill him/her.  Tidus or Camin isn't the lovey dovey all is forgiven types as Vaughan,Howe and Loghain found out.. Chasha takes great delight in killing him--she fully believes a good man is a dead man. Although she favors the old freeze, fry and shock death she's no stranger to the ways of the sword or blood magic.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

It would be difficult to defend a man who sold people into slavery who are under his  protection. If in the other all thing he is innocent, this fact is more than enough for a death sentence, I think.

Nein death sentence is   not a rule of the Landsmeet.

[Secret Rare]

Sten only attacks you if you have low approval with him. Be good with him, and he only says that he don't see the trip to Haven as the best course of action in a war, but will not attack you.

 

In his case, is the same as Ohgren. Treat him well, and he will trust you will his life (actual dialogue option in that conversation in Haven). Treat him like a sh*t, and he will attack you.

Regardless of his approval he should have remained quiet since he was the one who sworn to obey to the warden which make his case a little bit different than Oghren.

 

The same could be said about any companion except Morrigan with the DR and Alistair at the Landsmeet.
Leliana perhaps with the ashes but I see that as an act of fanaticism more than a treason.

I did not had issues with Leliana seeing how the dragon blood isn't useful and how there are many options to avoid the scenario but yes is more an act of fanatism both for her and Wynne.

[German Soldier]

From the Warden's perspective, none. It's not like any of these characters were sworn to the Warden for life, they joined freely for their own reasons and have their own motivations.

Have a personal motivation doesn't mean using the warden for your own plans and outright deceive them like Morrigan did  or what others try to do when they attack the warden,the game dialogues even support the betrayal Pov for some of these companions (Zevran,Alistair,Morrigan)

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Have a personal motivation doesn't mean using the warden for your own plans and outright deceive them like Morrigan did  or what others try to do when they attack the warden,the game dialogues even support the betrayal Pov for some of these companions (Zevran,Alistair,Morrigan)

My  purpose in DAO was to annihilate the dragon of beauty thus  everyone who stood on my path (Loghain,Alistair and Morrigan) were obstacles that needed to be dealt with (one is a villain from the start,,the other tried to proclaim himself a king to disrupt my strategy and the last plotted to use me to save that dinosaur).

 

There was only one language these kind of persons  were able to understand and it was the one of power.

so i showed to them power(execution for Alistair,annihilation for Loghain and murder knife for Morrigan)and they understood to not challenge me ever again.

 

 

With all the others companions I had always the option to reason and use the approval rating but with those three use reason was useless they did not stop  to attempt at using me or interfere with me so they required the lesson in the good old style.

[Deadly dwarf]

 

The vision of Solas in DAI do not paint Loghain act of retreat as treason quite the opposite since Solas agreed with him.

 

Eamon is poisoned after Ostagar by Jowan not before

 

Loghain couldn't have charged because he would have been sandwiched by the darkspawns.

http://social.biowar...308/blog/10285/

 

Gaider said that Loghain has nothing to do with the Cousland and Howe.

 

I'm not defending Loghain but just pointed out that the only true evidence against him are the act of breaking the laws(Eamon,Anora,the elves) which is something even our warden may have done.

 

 

Many thanks for posting the blogpost.  Maps are always useful for illustrating strategy.  I still wish he had addressed the issue of why the Tower signal was necessary if Loghain, from his location, could see that Cailan's forces were doomed because the Darkspawn were too many.  If the Darkspawn truly outnumbered Cailan's forces to the degree shown in the one drawing, then Loghain would not have ordered an attack even if the Tower signal had been made moments after Duncan had given his signal.  (I've never recruited Loghain; does he ever address Ostagar?)

 

As to Solas' visions, I remember he gave both versions of the battle and then told the Inquisitor that he had no way of knowing which version was correct.  I saw the clip on youtube under "Dragon Age Inquisition - Talking about Ostagar".  (I tried copying the link but it wouldn't transfer.)

 

Now going to Arl Eamon, what is he doing at the time of the battle?  Didn't Duncan want Cailan to wait for Eamon to arrive?  (I wonder if Bioware ever published a timetable to show what everyone is doing at various points of the game.)

[Tidus]

DD,The Arl had been poison without Duncan knowing it just like Bryce and his family was killed by Howe-without a doubt under Loghain's orders.

 

 

Solas is dead wrong.. Loghain planned his  treason well in advance and that "Yes,it will be a glorious day for all"--you can see he's up to something. When I seen that in my first game I wanted to run a sword through him right then and there.

 

Had the writers reviewed their story line in DA:O  Solas would have never made that stupid observation.

[Secret Rare]

DD,The Arl had been poison without Duncan knowing it just like Bryce and his family was killed by Howe-without a doubt under Loghain's orders.

 

 

Eamon forces were in late and he was not  poisoned yet while Cailan explicitly said that he had no desire to wait for Eamon forces.

 

 Bryce and his family was killed by Howe-without a doubt under Loghain's orders.

 

 

 

False.

 

 

Solas is dead wrong.. Loghain planned his  treason well in advance and that "Yes,it will be a glorious day for all"--you can see he's up to something. When I seen that in my first game I wanted to run a sword through him right then and there.

 

Had the writers reviewed their story line in DA:O  Solas would have never made that stupid observation.

Not sure why you are trying to argue that Solas is wrong when  he was able to watch the whole battle of Ostagar in HD blue ray from the fade.

[Inkvisiittori]

King Alistair. Grey Wardens always claim they don't involve themselves in politics, so how the hell can Alistair become a king? They criticize the First Warden for seeking more power in Weisshaupt, yet no one objects to Alistair becoming king and abandoning the order? Makes no sense. So in my eyes he is a traitor to the Order. Also he tells the future Warden-Commander that he "rather follows than leads" yet he still complains about every goddamn decision and throws temper tantrums when things don't go his way. If you have no backbone to make the difficult decisions yourself, then just shut the hell up and fall in line. 

[Tidus]

Secrete Rare, Howe was acting under Loghain's orders is proved Howe the Mouse never did anything on his own-not even hiring the Crows. You may think Loghain didn't order Howe to kill the Cousland evidence shows other wise. Why else would he be rewarded by becoming the ruler of Highever?   Loghain was a slick dealer but,he needed a ton of  grease to slide his innocents.. Notice how he tried to shift focus from his self to the warden? Anything to muddle the waters. The axe fell when Anora had her say. Even after the Landsmeet voted against him he went into a defiant rage. He seals his own doom and the sword fell.

 

The writers forgot to check the story lines in DA:O Solas saw nothing of the kind.

[Domakir]

Secrete Rare, Howe was acting under Loghain's orders is proved Howe the Mouse never did anything on his own-not even hiring the Crows. You may think Loghain didn't order Howe to kill the Cousland evidence shows other wise. Why else would he be rewarded by becoming the ruler of Highever?   Loghain was a slick dealer but,he needed a ton of  grease to slide his innocents.. Notice how he tried to shift focus from his self to the warden? Anything to muddle the waters. The axe fell when Anora had her say. Even after the Landsmeet voted against him he went into a defiant rage. He seals his own doom and the sword fell.

 

The writers forgot to check the story lines in DA:O Solas saw nothing of the kind.

I think it was confirmed that Loghain had nothing to do with Howe killing the Cousland. Maybe I'm confused with another game but I think I read it somewhere. Is there anyone who knows for certain and not speculations?

[Mike3207]

I think it was confirmed that Loghain had nothing to do with Howe killing the Cousland. Maybe I'm confused with another game but I think I read it somewhere. Is there anyone who knows for certain and not speculations?

For  general knowledge:

 

 

David Gaider, on 11 Jan 2010 - 11:29 AM, said:

I haven't read this entire thread, so forgive me for offering some input on something with incomplete knowledge, but my impression is that there is a question about Loghain's intentions prior to Ostagar? If so, I can shed some light on what my thoughts regarding it are. You can take them for what it's worth -- if there's no evidence of something in the game it's debateable whether that can be taken as truth, after all.

In my mind, Loghain did not go to Ostagar expecting to walk away from the battle. It was clear, however, that he and Cailan were already having profound disagreements -- mainly centering on Cailan's overtures to Orlais. Loghain was obviously moving to confront Cailan in some way, undercutting his access to allies and so forth. But didLoghain plan on killing Cailan? No, I don't think that. I think he was doing what Loghain does, and trying to ensure that when that moment of confrontation with Cailan came the battle was already won.

That said, he had been fighting the darkspawn for some time in the south with Cailan there, and had already seen what Cailan was capable of. I think he made preparations prior to that last battle for the possibility that he would have to walk away. He once made a promise to Maric that he would never allow one man to be more important than the Kingdom -- and in his eyes Cailan was recklessly endangering both himself and his kingdom. Whether that error in judgement condemns him right there is up to you.

There is also the matter of his association with Arl Howe, someone Loghain evidences great distaste for -- but politics makes for strange bedfellows, as they say. In my mind, Loghain always thought that Howe was an ally completely under his control and was probably never able to admit even to himself how much Howe was able to manipulate him. Howe acted on a great number of things without Loghain's involvement or approval, but by then the two were already in bed together -- Loghain was committed, as it were, and after Ostagar doubly so. For all his faults, Loghain is not a man to waver once a decision is made -- good or bad. The only reason he gives up, in the end, is because he sees that there is someone else beside himself who can save Ferelden, someone who hasn't made the mistakes he has. The burden does not rest entirely on his shoulders -- which, yes, is how he feels.

Hope that makes sense, although I understand the topic of conversation here has gone in a lot of different directions. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry for the Loghain highlights, but it' s how I found Gaider's quote.

[sniper_arrow]

Which companions do you consider to be a traitor?

 

Everyone 

[Tidus]

Well,Gaider should play the game and follow his story line..I know he wrote it but, there's way to many errors. Howe the Mouse acted under Loghain's orders. Howe wouldn't even hire Zevran without Loghain's ok.

 

Loghain knew Bryce and Eamon would make bitter enemies so,he had to eliminate them first.He freed Jowan to poison Eamon. 

 

The story line proves Loghain planned everything ahead including imprisoning his daughter the Queen and taking the throne.He also knew he had to eliminate Alistair a heir to the throne by blood. What better way then to have the wardens wiped out at Ostagar? Alistair survived the tower so, Loghain sent Crow assassins after them Both wardens knew the real story..

 

The proof is in the game.

[Mike3207]

Well,Gaider should play the game and follow his story line..I know he wrote it but, there's way to many errors. Howe the Mouse acted under Loghain's orders. Howe wouldn't even hire Zevran without Loghain's ok.

 

Loghain knew Bryce and Eamon would make bitter enemies so,he had to eliminate them first.He freed Jowan to poison Eamon. 

 

The story line proves Loghain planned everything ahead including imprisoning his daughter the Queen and taking the throne.He also knew he had to eliminate Alistair a heir to the throne by blood. What better way then to have the wardens wiped out at Ostagar? Alistair survived the tower so, Loghain sent Crow assassins after them Both wardens knew the real story..

 

The proof is in the game.

Well, if you already believe he's guilty you won't be convinced by anything Gaider says on the subject.

 

Similarly, if you believe he had nothing to do with it Gaider's words are just icing on the cake.

 

Like he said, there's no evidence of either in the game, and as such his personal opinion on the subject remains just that-his personal opinion. I don't ever think I thought of him as Word of God the way some do, but he remains one of the foremost authorities on Origins.

[Zero]

About the Solas stuff, people forgets that while Solas called Loghain "a veteran commander refusing to let more soldiers die in a lost cause", he also called him "a power-mad villain sneering as he lets King Cailan fall". Sadly, Solas isn't a reliable expositor here, because he only knows what he saw through the spirit's re-enactment of the Battle of Ostagar. And as we can see, the spirits were conflicted with the lingering emotions (both of betrayal and heroism) there.

[Asha'bellanar]

From the Warden's perspective, none. It's not like any of these characters were sworn to the Warden for life, they joined freely for their own reasons and have their own motivations.

 

I think Alistair's betrayal of the Wardens is actually the worst of all of the potential betrayals by companions, particularly from the point of view of the Warden. He spends the entire Blight talking about how the two of you are going to stop the Blight and kill the archdemon and he rushes into battle shouting "For the Grey Wardens!" and then if you make a tactical decision to listen to the Senior Grey Warden who recommends having as many Grey Wardens as possible, Alistair is all like, "Screw the Grey Wardens, and screw you! I quit!" in a gigantic tantrum. So as far as betrayals go, his seems to me to be the most severe. He's not just turning on the character. He's essentially saying that unless he gets his way, he doesn't care if Ferelden falls to the darkspawn.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love Alistair. I just find his betrayal to be the deepest and the most serious of them all.

[Asha'bellanar]

Well, if you already believe he's guilty you won't be convinced by anything Gaider says on the subject.

Meh. What would the head writer know about the writing in the game, anyway? These writers, thinking they know what they wrote and what it meant when they wrote it. Honestly.

[Aren]

Which companions do you consider to be a traitor?

 

Everyone 

Remove the dog and i may agree possibly even Shale and Oghren since i don't recall  good premises to put them both in the list.