About the Solas stuff, people forgets that while Solas
called Loghain"a veteran commander refusing to let more soldiers die in a lost cause", healso called him"a power-mad villain sneering as he letsKing Cailanthe world fall".
I think Solas is really good at describing himself.
I think Solas is really good at describing himself.
Maybe someone should do a parallel list between Solas and Loghain.
Mike 3207,Maybe you should listen closely or better yet stop skipping or sleeping through the cut scenes. Writers can be wrong due to the projects they may be involved in. Maybe you failed to notice there's a lot of WTH moments in DA:O including three times where the story line contradicts its self.
Anders to the GW and especially the HoF. Loghain and Anora to Cailan Their Rightful King and the Loyal Soldiers of Ferelden at Ostagar. Anora to the people of Ferelden when she attempts to kill the late Kings Blood Heir Alistair to keep the Throne for herself.
Mike 3207,Maybe you should listen closely or better yet stop skipping or sleeping through the cut scenes. Writers can be wrong due to the projects they may be involved in. Maybe you failed to notice there's a lot of WTH moments in DA:O including three times where the story line contradicts its self.
I listen pretty closely and there is nothing that ties Loghain to the death of the Couslands or Howe's actions.
I'll admit, there's no way Loghain could have put his ambitions into play if the Couslands hadn't been targeted by Howe. The attack on the Couslands, the poisoning of Eamon, and Howe being elevated the way he was all benefit Loghain's play for the throne.
The evidence regarding Loghain's role in poisoning Eamon is pretty sketchy. I think it's possible, but Howe could also have paid Jowan to lie. Jowan didn't have a lot of options at that point.
I think it's suspicious and looks bad for Loghain, but I really don't see anything that makes me think Howe wasn't acting alone.
To answer the question, I don't think anyone is actually guilty of treason.
Cailan was doomed at the time Loghain retreated, so he can't be guilty of that.If anyone thought that charge would stick, it would have been raised at the landsmeet.
:Leliana has a secondary allegiance during the Blight to the Chantry, but none of her actions endager her contributions to the Warden.
Alistair leaves the Wardens under certain circumstances, but Warden service is not guaranteed to be forever-just ask Anders.
Morrigan didn't have to stay through the fight. She's there because her mother asked her to come, and nothing is binding her to the Wardens and their fight other than her ritual and her promise to her mother.
Sten might be the most likely. He's gathered a great deal of intelligence about Ferelden and he may use it, but his allegiance to the Warden makes it just as likely he won't give the Qunari the most sensitive information.
I think Alistair's betrayal of the Wardens is actually the worst of all of the potential betrayals by companions, particularly from the point of view of the Warden. He spends the entire Blight talking about how the two of you are going to stop the Blight and kill the archdemon and he rushes into battle shouting "For the Grey Wardens!" and then if you make a tactical decision to listen to the Senior Grey Warden who recommends having as many Grey Wardens as possible, Alistair is all like, "Screw the Grey Wardens, and screw you! I quit!" in a gigantic tantrum. So as far as betrayals go, his seems to me to be the most severe. He's not just turning on the character. He's essentially saying that unless he gets his way, he doesn't care if Ferelden falls to the darkspawn.
Don't get me wrong, I love Alistair. I just find his betrayal to be the deepest and the most serious of them all.
and there are still people (mostly his fans)that are saying those who punished him in DAO are evil wardens mph.
To answer the question, I don't think anyone is actually guilty of treason.
It takes me nothing to counter each of your points.
Cailan was doomed at the time Loghain retreated, so he can't be guilty of that.If anyone thought that charge would stick, it would have been raised at the landsmeet.
:Leliana has a secondary allegiance during the Blight to the Chantry, but none of her actions endager her contributions to the Warden.
If Leliana attempt to kill the warden your point is proven false.
Alistair leaves the Wardens under certain circumstances, but Warden service is not guaranteed to be forever-just ask Anders.
Morrigan didn't have to stay through the fight. She's there because her mother asked her to come, and nothing is binding her to the Wardens and their fight other than her ritual and her promise to her mother.
Morrigan deceived the warden and attempted to use them for her own ends and didn't even keep her word for help on the 1st grimoire which is a form of personal betrayal from whom the warden may even demand revenge in WH.
Sten might be the most likely. He's gathered a great deal of intelligence about Ferelden and he may use it, but his allegiance to the Warden makes it just as likely he won't give the Qunari the most sensitive information.
Sten is saved by the warden and promised to follow them under an oath however at one point he can turn against the warden and if you don't win the fight he kill you which is indeed a betrayal.
I addressed each of your points in a clear manner and to my perception proven them all to be not correct
The companions in DAO are all able to betray the PC and to not keep their word unlike the majority of companions of DAI.
Morrigan deceived the warden and attempted to use them for her own ends and didn't even keep her word for help on the 1st grimoire which is a form of personal betrayal from whom the warden may even demand revenge in WH.
It's over! Now that Gaider is gone I will not be forced to hear from Morrigan&Alsitair ever again!Bye,Bye i will certainly not miss you two die in the ether of the archives of the video games history just like that failure of the OGB.
Alistair maybe. But Morrigan? I don't know...
The vision of Solas in DAI do not paint Loghain act of retreat as treason quite the opposite since Solas agreed with him.Eamon is poisoned after Ostagar by Jowan not beforeLoghain couldn't have charged because he would have been sandwiched by the darkspawns.
"Is probably" is far from an authoritative statement. It's speculation. Implausible speculation because as I keep saying, if Loghain could see that much from where he was then he wouldn't have needed the signal to tell him when to attack. Also it would have have been kind of appropriate to try to send a message to the half of the army he was abandoning as he bravely ran away.
It takes me nothing to counter each of your points.
Loghain still remains guilty of treason against the law.-He imprisoned the Queen.-He poisoned a noble.-He sold Ferelden denizens to slavery.-He Killed and hanged many nobles (dialogue conversations in the tavern).There is no need to account his actions in Ostagar
If Leliana attempt to kill the warden your point is proven false.
He broke his oath and committed desertion which is a form of betrayal.Anders has the decorum to leave after that the mother is defeated and not when the issue isn't resolved yet.
Morrigan deceived the warden and attempted to use them for her own ends and didn't even keep her word for help on the 1st grimoire which is a form of personal betrayal from whom the warden may even demand revenge in WH.
Sten is saved by the warden and promised to follow them under an oath however at one point he can turn against the warden and if you don't win the fight he kill you which is indeed a betrayal.
I addressed each of your points in a clear manner and to my perception proven them all to be not correct
The companions in DAO are all able to betray the PC and to not keep their word unlike the majority of companions of DAI.
Anora was imprisoned on Howe's property. There's no evidence Loghain had anything to do with that, other than his lieutenant showing up, and that could be just because she heard the Warden had broken into Howe's residence.
I don't trust Jowan when he implicates Loghain. He was trying to save his own skin.
He broke his oath sure. He told everyone he was leaving the Wardens, so not sure desertion come in. I'm not a legal scholar however.
No doubt he sold elven citizens into slavery. He was losing a civil war, however, and the gold he received helped him continue the fight. Civil wars are expensive.
If you believe the dialogue conversations in the tavern, they also mention Anora named her father Regent. I'll grant your point if you grant mine that Anora doing that means Loghain took the Regent title on her behalf.
I never gave Leliana grounds to kill me. so for my purposes she isn't guilty of treason. It may be different depending on your actions with the Ashes.
Not familiar with what first grimoire you're talking about, so will let you elaborate on that.
The DAO companions will only betray you if you take adverse actions and never take the time to use gifts to restore their faith in you. In point, it's on your warden to determine whether or not they ever have a reason to betray you. You have events like Leliana will always attack if you despoil the ashes, but I'm not the sort to do that anyway.
Taking into account DA:O-A, I guess Anders is really the most treacherous one. Even more than Loghain... that f***ng mage betrayed my good will and started a war just because reasons...
The hero can rely only on his dog. Others his companions can quit and take opposite place. But there is no doubt that Loghain is the most dangerous enemy who doesn’t deserve to be believed and forgiven.
Maybe you should listen closely or better yet stop skipping or sleeping through the cut scenes. [...] Maybe you failed to notice there's a lot of WTH moments in DA:O including three times where the story line contradicts its self.
There are places where the narrative is broken and the story contradicts itself. No doubt. I'm specifically interested in knowing where/when the cutscenes or other dialogue indicate that Loghain knew about, supported, or otherwise approved of Howe's plan to murder the Couslands. I'm genuinely interested. If you could give some specifics (or point me to YouTube videos or a Wiki or whatever), I'd sincerely love to see/hear/read it. I've played DAO lots of times with different origins, romances, and choices, and I can't think of anywhere that it's made clear that Loghain was involved. Of course he knew after the fact (would be kinda hard to miss) and he didn't appear to give a damn about it, that much I will grant, especially since Loghain pretty much handed Howe the teyrnir of Highever, but the impression I got was that Loghain wanted someone to do his dirty work, and Howe fit the bill. Can you please indicate the specific dialogue? I'd love to hear it (because apparently in all my many playthroughs over many years, I have consistently missed it, and I hate it when I miss obvious stuff).
and there are still people (mostly his fans)that are saying those who punished him in DAO are evil wardens mph.
Oh, I'm a big Alistair fan. 
I am NOT a fan of the piece of writing that makes him desert the Grey Wardens, however. And I'm not sure what you mean by punishing him. Do you mean allow Anora to execute him? I wouldn't personally do that, because it's just as easy to get Anora to exile him, and then he turns up in DA2 in the Hanged Man, and Drunk!Alistair is pitiful and pathetic but pretty funny because Alistair's a funny guy, even when he's being pathetic and pitiful (and eventually Teagan comes and brings him home to Ferelden, anyway, and I headcanon that he becomes a soldier in Redcliffe once he sobers up). And it's Anora's decision to execute him, not the Warden's. It's not evil to allow the monarch (the one you just pretty much put on the throne) to exercise her sovereign right to execute someone, anyway.
Oh, I'm a big Alistair fan.
I think that drunk Alsitair is one of the best outcomes for him.
Not to offend Morrigan fans, she may indeed have her sharp sarcasm and fine body but she spits venom like a hysterical snake when cornered and her insults to the warden when she abandoned them are done spitefully.I would appreciate more if the the witches of the wilds just tell me directly what they want rather than play with this unfair tactics.
No offense taken. I actually agree with the last thing you said. I don't like guessing games.
Alistair maybe. But Morrigan? I don't know...
Oh, I'm a big Alistair fan.
After he left Kirkwall, he becomes a Grey Warden again and shows up in DA:I, just by the time you had to do this mission that make you choose between him and Hawke.
After he left Kirkwall, he becomes a Grey Warden again and shows up in DA:I, just by the time you had to do this mission that make you choose between him and Hawke.
I'm pretty sure that only happens if he was a Grey Warden at the end of DAO. I've had Warden Alistair in my DA:I game, but never when Alistair was a wandering drunk.
I don't know how to get Drunk Alistair in DA:I, but someone put the video:
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