It doesn't matter what your relationship with her was. You were meant to be used and ditched at the cost of being used to create something inhuman.I totally understand the betrayal PoV which is far worse with the romance.
You can say something of the sort in Wh she does not form any valid point against the reasoning.
It doesn't matter what your relationship with her was. You were meant to be used and ditched at the cost of being used to create something inhuman.I totally understand the betrayal PoV which is far worse with the romance.
No, you really don't understand, a betrayal PoV requires the existence of a strong individual relationship in the first place. This is not the case with any of the Warden's companions, they are a group of strangers brought together by need and circumstances.
No, you really don't understand, a betrayal PoV requires the existence of a strong individual relationship in the first place. This is not the case with any of the Warden's companions, they are a group of strangers brought together by need and circumstances.
This you the only one who don't understand with +100 approval romance or friendship there is a bound hence betrayal case closed.
No, you really don't understand, a betrayal PoV requires the existence of a strong individual relationship in the first place.
Uh? 
What is a romance then?
Uh?
What is a romance then?
Actually this was already an argument i brought it up long ago for a response i made to @BayonetHipshot that with the romance is a form of betrayal maybe even with the high friendship no different than the situation with Isabela or Solas.
Solas doesn't invent any excuse in Trespasser he simply said that he tried to use you and that you deserved better at least he is more honest that's why i like him more than Morrigan depsite him being far more dangerous.
The problem with preserving the Old God's soul is that she never gives the Warden a good reason to do it. At that point in the story, the Warden is either going to die anyway, either to the Archdemon or to the Calling. Its either dying in the Deep Roads or turning into a Broodmother (if the Warden is female and gets caught by Darkspawn) or getting killed when killing the Archdemon.
Warden has already met Avernus - he knows it is possible to avoid the calling and maybe is already planning to search for a cure (eventually). So avoiding death is a very good motivation here. Maybe the Warden is just as interested in preserving the Old God's soul as Morrigan is. Maybe he worships the Old Gods or he could just have always had a fascination with forbidden magics. Or maybe he felt he was forced to join the Wardens and resents them. He could do the dark ritual out of spite - I will not die, not for you. Maybe it's the idea of cheating death that appeals to him. He is the first Warden to survive killing an archdemon. That makes him a living legend. There are so many possible reasons why he would do it...
No, you really don't understand, a betrayal PoV requires the existence of a strong individual relationship in the first place. This is not the case with any of the Warden's companions, they are a group of strangers brought together by need and circumstances.
A deception is a necessary condition but at the same time not enough to define something as a betrayal or someone as a traitor.
You can rightfully call Duncan a deceiver however you can't say that he is a traitor simply because he had no bound with you.
The companions of DAO instead may potentially have a bound so their deceptions may morph into a betrayal Pov.
Warden has already met Avernus - he knows it is possible to avoid the calling and maybe is already planning to search for a cure (eventually). So avoiding death is a very good motivation here. Maybe the Warden is just as interested in preserving the Old God's soul as Morrigan is. Maybe he worships the Old Gods or he could just have always had a fascination with forbidden magics. Or maybe he felt he was forced to join the Wardens and resents them. He could do the dark ritual out of spite - I will not die, not for you. Maybe it's the idea of cheating death that appeals to him. He is the first Warden to survive killing an archdemon. That makes him a living legend. There are so many possible reasons why he would do it...
30 years aren't few anyway but point is that I see no reason to gamble an entire globe for one GW life so that even if my life is spared vs archdemon i have to worry day and night anyway because i unleashed Chtulu.I find it more reasonable to just use someone if i care for the fictional survival and don't have to worry anymore for Cthulhu that is somewhere in the world and that may trigger another blight.
Uh?
What is a romance then?
Optional content that may or may not come later into the game. You say the deception was planned from the start, there was no romance at the beginning.
Optional content.
Optional doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense.
He is the first Warden to survive killing an archdemon. That makes him a living legend.
Why the heck people would pull DR just for honor of stabbing that critter in the head?
It has to be considered an impressive feat killing a defeated critter?Well "killing" in truth it jump somewhere else.
Killing Solas would be an impressive feat something no one has ever done before (kill an Evanuris).
THere were already plenty of people who killed archdemons even those of the Imperium who defeated Dumat many times.
Why the heck people would pull DR just for honor of stabbing that critter in the head?
It has to be considered an impressive feat killing a defeated critter?Well "killing" in truth it jump somewhere else.
People tend to not care at all so long that they are safe.
In Orlais many didn't even know that there was a blight in Ferelden let alone who the warden is or what the archdemons are.
You say the deception was planned from the start, there was no romance at the beginning.
The betrayal was not planned from the start but the deception had always been there.
It has to be considered an impressive feat killing a defeated critter?Well "killing" in truth it jump somewhere else.
The warden who killed Dumat doesn't appear to have been killed by an US yet no one remembers him even if he killed the worst Archdemon of history.In Thedas people seem to care only about religious heroes/VIP.
All of them are, trust no one.
From my personal exp I found this:
Loghain until he joins you, then he is amazingly loyal and will even die for you.
Zev can become a traitor if you have low affection.
Leliana and Wynne will betray you if you desecrate the ashes.
I won't say Alistair is a traitor but he did disappoint me at the Landsmeet. Our friendship was never the same, but he became a good King who I was proud of in the end.
Sten can sort of turn on you at Haven but high affection can prevent bloodshed.
Shale will turn on you if you side with Branka.
I think Oghren can also turn on you if you anger him.
Morrigan never betrays you but she does leave you if you refuse the DR.
Only Dog and Loghain are truly loyal it seems no matter what you do.
Loghain as a traitor to ferelden(But he still loyal to you even at 0 approval).
Sten can be if he thinks you are a weak leader(one of the most interserting things about him is that he doesen't think you weak if he disagrees with your opinion,he thinks you are weak if you let him change your mind )
Zevran is kinda using you as a shield from the crows(and you are kinda using him as a weapon)if he keep the opinion that you are a shield he double cross you as seem fit to him.Its up to the warden to change his mind
Leliana will fanatically betray you if she is not "matured"from the marjorlaine thing
Wynne is gonna die sooner or later,and she wanna die doing whats right(from her POV which may conflict to the warden)
Dog loves you.Period.
Oghren(See Wynne(although he could just leave since he only stays because the warden is a friend and a home since he probably became a surfacer))
Shale only reason to stay is to discover her past,since you are kinda aginst what she fought is pretty obivious she turn on you
Morrigan being a traitor or not its for other discussion since that is pov
And last but not least Alistair betray you if you make loghain a warden(since a man like loghain can't be a fellow "honored" grey warden with him because of everthing he done (But i suspect is only because of duncan))
All of them can be traitors but its pretty much you who choose what they will become(going againt cardin after everything he said to shale its pretty expected she will turn on you) In the end you have the decision in your hands
Perhaps strange, but I do not consider it a betrayal, if someone leave because they do not care about him, or your conviction is contrary to his belief.
David Gaider gave his opinion on this once and argued that the Warden betrayed Alistair by not taking his feelings in consideration.
But... I just don't see it. Sure, Alistair has no obligation to obey the Warden at all times, so his decision to leave isn't a personal betrayal. He is a deserter, which is a different matter.
However, that goes two ways. The Warden never promised to kill Loghain, so there is no break of trust.
The best argument in favor of the idea that the Warden is a bad friend/gf is that s/he stands by his/her decision even after Alistair says he will leave if Loghain is made a Grey Warden.
Still, that is kinda pushing it. A good leader listens to what his/her followers have to say, but doesn't make decisions solely based on whether they're happy.
It is, however, a logical argument. Loghain really deserve the punishment, but I never understood why Alistair go away if you do not kill him or let him to kill him.
I do not agree with Gaider. Alistair's reaction is not logical: the warden do not betray him. This is probably a temporary insanity, but can be said: that, yes, Alistair betrays their friendship, and the order. He, not the warden. I hate this scene, and and I do not consider it logical – It is not the only one in the series. I think this not fit Alistair. Probably it was written into the story for the bigger conflict.
It is, however, a logical argument. Loghain really deserve the punishment, but I never understood why Alistair go away if you do not kill him or let him to kill him.
I do not agree with Gaider. Alistair's reaction is not logical: the warden do not betray him. This is probably a temporary insanity, but can be said: that, yes, Alistair betrays their friendship, and the order. He, not the warden. I hate this scene, and and I do not consider it logical – It is not the only one in the series. I think this not fit Alistair. Probably it was written into the story for the bigger
We can see in flemeth hut that alistair already knows what he wants to do:Kill loghain,avenge duncan and finish his job.
He never cared about the order,he only cared about duncan:if duncan deserted the grey wardens Alistair will gladly follow him if Duncan persuade him that the grey wardens are no heroes and stuff.If duncan survived and joined loghain doing the landsmeet,Alistair would(not with relutance)accepted since Duncan "know" what he is doing.
From Alistair POV:Duncan is his hero,Loghain killed his hero,Loghain have to die
He just want revenge
Duncan was probably the only thing that make him do all the game journey with you.Because you guys could just flee to orlais and make a stand there with a lot more grey wardens(you warden can even suggest that).
All of them are, trust no one.
You know i use a pillow like your avatar?!
David Gaider gave his opinion on this once and argued that the Warden betrayed Alistair by not taking his feelings in consideration.
But... I just don't see it. Sure, Alistair has no obligation to obey the Warden at all times, so his decision to leave isn't a personal betrayal. He is a deserter, which is a different matter.
However, that goes two ways. The Warden never promised to kill Loghain, so there is no break of trust.
The best argument in favor of the idea that the Warden is a bad friend/gf is that s/he stands by his/her decision even after Alistair says he will leave if Loghain is made a Grey Warden.
Still, that is kinda pushing it. A good leader listens to what his/her followers have to say, but doesn't make decisions solely based on whether they're happy.
It is, however, a logical argument. Loghain really deserve the punishment, but I never understood why Alistair go away if you do not kill him or let him to kill him.
DAO was developed originally to have both of them yet someone thought that it was a good idea to cut this content in order to make the DR a better temptation they also tought that it was a good idea to negate the creation of others GW from Riordan all with the purpose to cornered the player in the end stage,yet in the end they still offered the option to reject the ritual so i'm not sure why they did this.
From my personal exp I found this:
Loghain until he joins you, then he is amazingly loyal and will even die for you.
Zev can become a traitor if you have low affection.
Leliana and Wynne will betray you if you desecrate the ashes.
I won't say Alistair is a traitor but he did disappoint me at the Landsmeet. Our friendship was never the same, but he became a good King who I was proud of in the end.
Sten can sort of turn on you at Haven but high affection can prevent bloodshed.
Shale will turn on you if you side with Branka.
I think Oghren can also turn on you if you anger him.
Morrigan never betrays you but she does leave you if you refuse the DR.
Only Dog and Loghain are truly loyal it seems no matter what you do.
-Leliana and Wynne had their motivation to attack someone who destroyed an holy relic important for the majority of persons in Thedas.
-Shale:: is more the warden who is betraying her by not keep their words to help her remember and also kill one of her friends to support slavery.
-Oghren had every right to fight someone who put him at such low approval (-40) you need to insult him many times for that to happen.
-Sten should have not attached the warden no matter the approval due to his oath.
-Alistair&Morrigan i considered them both traitors one because it perform desertion the other because used deception against friends or lovers.
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