642 réponses à ce sujet

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Greetings. I would like to talk about what I think is the giant elephant in the room when it comes to Dragon Age games and that is Bioware's blatant favoritism towards Andrastianism. Bioware has repeatedly, time and again, under different Lead Writers (formerly David Gaider, currently Patrick Weekes) stated that they will never flat-out prove or disprove the existence of the Maker. However, in the same vein, Bioware has decided to do the complete opposite with the Dalish Pantheon and the Stone, whom we now know respectively as the Evanuris and the Titans.

 

This is blatant favoritism and bias towards the Maker because what this implies is that the Elves and Dwarves have to confront the reality of their faiths and be shaken by the reality of their faiths but Andrastians are shielded from this. For example, the Andrastian's faith in the Maker and the Herald of Andraste is portrayed sympathetically throughout the game despite having no basis in fact, and even being proven wrong multiple times throughout the games such as as Adamant and in Trespasser. The Andrastian narrative and characters such as Cassandra Pentaghast and Mother Giselle constantly lecture the protagonist, and by extension, the player about how faith is not and should not be based on reason or evidence; as long as choosing to believe in something gives people hope and purpose and that this is a good thing.

 

Meanwhile, the narrative and the characters constantly pour fecal matter all over the Elves for retaining faith in their religion and traditions despite having no evidence at first, and then basically keeps calling them stupid for retaining faith in their beliefs after it has been revealed that their religion and beliefs are not all based in strict fact. Worse still, while the truth is presented as being completely irrelevant to the value of faith for Andrastians, that same game turns around and acts like the truth behind the stories of Elves is what is really important, and the Elves are morons for deriving faith from something not factually true and thus should abandon their faiths and beliefs.

 

This is also done to an extent to the Dwarves who choose to believe in the Stone. The Dwarven Inquisition members that we have such as Lace Harding and Varric Tethras (in essence, the Dwarf representatives of the Inquisition to the player) are Andrastians (and Varric continually mocks the Dwarven faith) and the Dwarves that worship the Stone such as Valta and Renn are either killed off or vanish under mysterious circumstances. If the Dwarven protagonist choose to worship the Stone, he or she is either ignored or has their beliefs washed away by the Andrastian members of the Inquisition after a dialogue with Josephine in Haven since after that dialogue, your Dwarven faith is never brought up again, its all Herald of Andraste and the Maker ? Why can't the Dwarven protagonist see themselves as having the Ancestor's Blessing or the Blessing of the Stone ?

 

My question is why this double standard is present ? Why should one group of the faithful in Thedas be allowed to retain an almost naive and innocent perspective of their faith ("Andraste's Chant is familiar across kingdoms, a source of shared custom.." but the Elven Creators and the Dwarven Stone are not sources of shared customs ?) while the other groups are denied this ? Bioware has stated that it intends to make games where everyone is flawed in some way so why not portray the Maker and Andrastianism in the same critical light they portray the Evanuris ?

 

Frankly, there is plenty of dirt on the Maker and the Andrastian religion that is depicted in the Codex and in the World of Thedas but none of the protagonists we have had so far, be it the Hero of Ferelden or Champion of Kirkwall or the Inquisitor is allowed to bring it up in some way. From a critical perspective, we can see that the Maker is a narcissistic masochistic indifferent god who cannot stand dissent and practices adultery. As Morrigan put it eloquently, the Maker is "an absentee father figure..". He also turned his back from his creations because they did not act they way he wanted them to do so even though it was he who created them and gave them free will. Worse still, the Maker effectively steals the lawfully wed wife of a mortal man to claim as his own and then later, he lets her endure torture as well as immolation at the stake. Lastly, he stated that unless his followers spread his teachings all over the world, he will not return to them or really give much of a damn about them.

 

How is it that we can have Solas talk about Falon'Din's vanity but we cannot have anyone, not even the protagonist bring up the Maker's vanity and adulterous behavior ? The Maker's vanity to want his word to spread to all four corners of the world, which is no different from the Qun's doctrine to spread their teachings throughout the world, has caused tremendous loss of life, and massive conflicts, just like Falon'Din's vanity for adulation created oceans of his follower's blood. Furthermore, we know from multiple Codex entries that the Andrastian Chantry as we know it, is established nearly 200 years later after the death of Andraste by Kordillus Drakon I.  Drakon I used violent coercive force to push forth his version of the Chant, Maker, and Andraste while wiping out many others such as Daughters of Song and driving other such as Blades of Hessarian to obscurity. This means that Andrastianism as we know it today, is not brought about by Andraste's blessings or the Maker's will, it was created through intolerant violent coercive political force. Yet no protagonist is allowed or even given the option to bring this up.

 

I for one would have loved to confront Mother Giselle or Cassandra Pentaghast or Sera about how their Andrastianism is not actually the true vision of Andraste or the Maker since Andraste died 200 years before the Andrastian Chantry was formed, it is in fact the vision of Drakon I which is instituted through violence and coercion. It is also truly odd and hypocritical how the Andrastian Chantry frowns on and even ridicules its followers who have visions. To them, only Andraste's vision is the valid one but ironically, it was Drakon I who wrote the Canticle of Exaltations describing his visions. How is this not heresy but Leliana's visions, for example, are inappropriate or scorn-worthy ? Oh, that's right, because Drakon I was the one who created the Chantry through violent force so his visions are not in question.

 

I would have loved to have a protagonist confront the supposed Seeker of Truth (it should have been Seeker of Faith, not truth), the Revered Mother Giselle about how their religion is not what they say it is and deal with the consequences. I would have loved it if Lavellan could have confronted Ameridan about being friends with a violent warmonger like Drakon I (I can understand forming an alliance but Ameridan explicitly stated that Drakon I was one of his oldest friends) who is alienating multiple interpretations of Andraste's teachings (possibly even Ameridan's own interpretation of the Maker and Creators)  in order to consolidate his power.

 

The only thing we know with absolute certainty is that once upon a time, there existed a woman called Andraste from the Alamarri tribe. At a certain age, after her marriage with Maferath, she experienced something and soon, she called the visions from something as the Maker's wisdom and together with her husband and the tribes, they began a war against the Tevinter Imperium and along the way, the managed to secure an alliance and friendship with the Elves lead by Shartan. Later, due to Maferath's betrayal for unknown reasons (perhaps it is jealousy of the Maker, perhaps it is to prevent further loss of lives that he made a deal with the Imperium or perhaps it was both), Andraste was captured, tortured and burned at the stake by Archon Hessarian. Hessarian, for whatever reason, repented his actions and converted. This is all we genuinely know.

 

Yet somehow, Andraste's words such as "Magic exist to serve man, not to rule over him" has been twisted to mean locking up mages in specific buildings, having legions of gullible men and women (Templars) become addicted to a highly dangerous substance (Lyrium) to watch over these mages and near absolute control over mages, having an agreement with the Dwarves to restrict the trade of this dangerous addictive substance to keep the gullible legion on a leash and then on top that, having an elite team (Seekers of Truth) formed to watch over all this. Yet the protagonists cannot really bring this up.

 

In fact, Jaws of Hakkon DLC should very well allowed us to question the validity that Templars are part of the Chantry because we learn there that a Templar is simply a specific fighting style involving the usage of magical substance that can be addictive,  which is not very different from a Reaver. There is also the reality that Shartan and his teaching were removed and whitewashed away from the Chant of Light even though Andraste and Shartan, Human and Elf, fought side by side against the Imperium, despite the fact that there are many City Elves who are Andrastians.

 

So the reality of the situation is that Andrastianism and the Maker are as flawed as the Evanuris and their teachings as well as the Qun and their teachings and the Dwarves and their teachings. Yet, throughout the series, especially in Inquisition, Bioware has shown blatant favoritism, blatant protectionism, blatant obscurantism and blatant sacrosanct towards the Andrastians and the Andrastianism while not granting the same courtesy to the Elves who believe in the Evanuris, to the Dwarves who worship the Stone, to the Qunari who follow the Qun and even to those who worship the Old Gods. I mean, wanting to have your teachings spread to all four corners of the world in order to make your God give a damn about you or wanting to spread your teachings by force as dictated by your philosopher-founder to achieve some form of utopia is not very different to those who wish to enter the Golden City to gain power. For all we know, the majority of Old God worshipers probably just behave like Varric or Cassandra or Giselle or Leliana - They take the good stuff and ignore the crappy ones or deflect them with claims of faith or have their own individual interpretation.

 

If Bioware wish to portray all peoples, all religions and all gods as flawed in some way, then they should extend this courtesy to Andrastians and Andrastianism instead of sheltering them from the possibility that their faith is wrong or flawed. Heck, I would have loved to confront Andrastians at the end of Trespasser because according to Andrastianism, the Maker created Thedas and everything in it, including the Fade, Spirits, Veil before turning away. Yet in Trespasser, Solas mentions that it is he (and his agents) who were responsible for creating the Veil and we learn that there is an entire line of story about Thedas' origin that does not involve the Maker at all. I would have loved to ask Cassandra or Giselle or Sera if they are going to be worshipping Fen'Harel now since he created the Veil and since Maker created the Veil, therefore logically Fen'Harel should be seen as the Maker and see their response as they try to stammer and deflect that their religious teachings is wrong with claims of faith.

 

I often wonder if Bioware is simply engaging in Andrastian favoritism and protectionism because they are afraid of causing offense towards real world monotheistic religion such as Christianity, Judaism and Islam because criticism of Andrastianism can be seen by some as criticism of Christianity and some would take it further and see it as criticism of monotheism. I mean, we have see how Christians react to entertainment that is critical to their faith when you see their responses towards films such as Da Vinci Code,  Agora, and Passion of the Christ. Are they afraid of possibly losing sales or something ? In the same vein, I do wonder if Bioware has no problem with criticizing polytheism or animism because they know polytheists and animists don't really care or if because majority of Bioware developers are from Christian nations and therefore might have a problem with criticizing monotheism but have no problem with criticizing polytheism or animism ?

 

Anyway, these are my thoughts on the matter. I hope that Bioware address this favoritism in their upcoming games by giving us Human followers who are not Andrastians as well as proper Dwarven followers who believe in the Stone. The only one we have had so far is Morrigan and as for Dwarves, Oghren is not a shining example of Dwarves and Sigrun does not look like she is returning again. Likewise, they should allow the protagonist, Human or non-Human alike, to question the Andrastian faith, to be critical of the Andrastian faith and deal with the consequences such as accusations of heathenous blasphemy or a healthy philosophical debate or what have you.

 

Have a nice day and cheers. I am curious to hear your thoughts and comments on this matter.

[Aliceeverafter]

With huge respect for the essay you've written, i think the fact that this is a made up religion is always going to be the crunch point. That and the bulk of the story is in the human society, written by human writers. and as you say, i think some remedial work is done in the massive tomes that accompany the series.

[The Elder King]

People should keep in mind that Inquisition wasn't supposed to be played with other races. The plot was written with a human character in mind, and on a focus on humans/Chantry/Andraste. They weren't going to revamp all the plots and dialogues just for fitting the new playable races. I do think they could've done a better job, but the focus/favoritism on the human faith wasn't going to change.

Also, while they might not reveal the Maker's identity, they never said that the elven lore reveals wouldn't affect the Andrastian faith in-game. I doubt they won't show doubts or problems with the Maker's role when it'll be revealed worldwide that the Veil wasn't created by the Maker.

[The Ascendant]

Well written and thought out. Hopefully we will get some revelations in the next game.

[Gervaise]

The problem is not how they treat other religions, since this reflects the view of the ruling majority in Thedas.   People repudiate your faith in anything other than the Maker because they are the ones in positions of power and thus it is virtually impossible to challenge them.

 

The problem for me, right from DAO, has been that the PC is never really allowed to challenge the version of the Chant we are given or the Chantry's claim to be the sole mediators of Andraste's legacy.   When we discover Haven and the fact they have different traditions, there was no real way of bringing this up except by some brief exchange with followers.   Likewise confronting the shade of Shartan.   When we get to DA2 I played my Hawke as believing in the Maker but not the Chantry.   I even told Sebastian at the end when he is wondering if he is on the right side defending the mages that Andraste would be there with us waving torches to protect them if she was alive.   However, you had no option to bring this up elsewhere.   Anders manifesto was still arguing from the viewpoint that what the Chantry claim about Andraste's words was correct and Andraste was fearful of mages because of the Imperium, not that she never intended them being interpreted that way at all or possibly even said them.   A similar thing was true with Giselle.   She said that Andraste's words needed to be considered in the context of her time.   You could never say, well may be she never said them.   One thing that the Herald was never able to adequately ask, particularly if they weren't Andrastrian themselves, was why exactly do people think I am the Herald?   I mean by this there should have been an explanation of why people might have thought the woman in the Fade was Andraste and the link with the prophesy of Drakon, which you were then allowed to query because of the inconsistency with what is taught about Andraste's unique role with respect to the Maker.

 

However, you are right that the more that is revealed about how the Orlesian Chantry came about, the more it seems to call into question that it has any authority from the Maker at all (even if you do still think he exists).   It is very clear that there were other versions of the cult of Andraste that may well have been closer to the truth of the historic Andraste and a different version of her words but that Drakon simply wiped them out.    The clergy in Lothering seemed to suggest that Leliana was a heretic for believing the Maker could have given her a vision; the Guardian at the Shrine said categorically that only Andraste was ever privileged to be spoken to directly by the Maker, so what are you meant to make of Drakon's prophetic vision?   This was his whole justification for his forcible conversion of other nations to his version of the Chant and is officially part of the Chant because he directed it.     This is a big fat contradiction to everything people are taught about Andraste and yet we are to believe that no one has ever questioned it?    I suppose it is possible they did but were promptly killed.   It is annoying though that the PC cannot do this actually in the game.

 

Then, as you also point out, there is the contradiction between what is in the Chant about the Maker creating the world and what we now know.    The Maker allegedly created everything, yet we have the Veil created by Solas, the Crossroads created by the Evanuris and the Titans, dwarves and elves, none of which are mentioned anywhere in the Chant (except strangely possibly eluded to by Drakon in his prophesy).    The Maker was said to have imprisoned the old false gods, yet we know that at least one group of false gods, the Evanuris, were imprisoned by Solas and another set of false gods, those of the Avaar, are still happily communicating with the world.   Nor were the old gods permanently imprisoned since it merely takes the activities of darkspawn to release them.

 

Not revealing whether the Maker is real or not is not the same as letting the PC challenge the accepted view of the Creator god or the authority of his alleged Chantry.   There is still hope though.   We are heading north to Tevinter, whose worship of the Maker pre-dated that of the southern Chantry and the foundation of which was much closer in time to that of Andraste.    It may be no nearer to the truth of the matter than the southern Chantry but may be we will be allowed to question the whole thing a bit more.  Or may be it will finally be revealed that Andraste was a mage.   Mind you, that is not to say I advocate simply bashing the Imperial Chantry if we cannot likewise take a shot at their southern neighbour.   That would be annoying.  

 

Incidentally I am a monotheist in real life and I have absolutely no problem with attacking the fictitious monotheist religion in the game, particularly since it has such glaring faults in its dogma and it seems that the Divines who are meant to maintain that religion seem to be able to change that dogma at personal whim.   In game my Inquisitor is currently verging on the atheist humanist but I'd opt for agnostic.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

My biggest problem with Andrastrianism is honestly that it's so boring in comparison to every other belief system in the game. There's hardly anything worth exploring in it, imo. It's the stereotypical unknowable, unprovable, omnipotent Godhead with a savior figure tacked on. Every other religion has so many interesting questions surrounding it, and so much that could be explored in game. I thought the brief touch on Avvar religion during the Jaws of Hakkon was more interesting than the entirety of experience we've had with Andrastrianism. I think what makes Andrastrianism boring is what makes it the easiest to plaster everywhere in the game, though. It's something you can never prove or disprove. Even questioning elements of the religion, there's always the fact that you can never prove or disprove whether there's some supreme Godhead that's giving us the four year old's tantrum style silent treatment. It just feels like taking the easy route.  

[Bayonet Hipshot]

With huge respect for the essay you've written, i think the fact that this is a made up religion is always going to be the crunch point. That and the bulk of the story is in the human society, written by human writers. and as you say, i think some remedial work is done in the massive tomes that accompany the series.

 

If that is the case, then why is it we have human writers in other video game franchises that are perfectly capable of writing about non-Human societies and non-Human faiths just fine ?

 

It is human writers that wrote Aedric worship, Daedric worship, Tribunal worship, Hist worship, Y'ffre worship, Melitele, Eternal Fire, Nilfgaardian Sun worship. They can write all these just fine without favoritism towards a specific religion, so why can't Bioware writers do the same with Andrastianism, The Stone and The Creators ?

[Squinterific]

It's not favoritism, it's just a reflection of the different conceptions of God and gods according to monotheism and polytheism.

 

it's in the nature of monotheism to propose a God who is abstract and "unprovable". Whereas polytheistic religions tend to have human-like deities that just happen to posses supernatural powers.

 

The Elven pantheon was neither proven nor disproven, it was just stripped of its myths because its actors are concrete, physical beings. Solas & co. can still be deities in the eyes of mortal elves, should those elves choose to seek their favor. And many do, once they realize that Solas is the Fen"Harel of legend. "...for what is a god but a being of immense power?"

[Reznore57]

I think one of the problem is the Andrastian faith is very much alive , but the faith in the Creators and the Stone is linked to dead empires , sure there are still people believing in that but not so much.

You can make some big revelation about the Stone and Creators and it doesn't matter , the fact that Fen Harel and Mythal are walking around is not a huge deal except for a bunch of hippies in the woods...

Now imagine if Andraste was walking around , the writers also didn't know what to do with the ashes and they went poof! storywise.

 

The point I agree with is the theme of faith in DAI was not badly done , but there were much *shrugs* and much "ah the Maker works in mysterious ways "

Andraste was also not that great because she is not there beyond the Inquisitor having the title of "Herald of Andraste" .There wasn't any revelation about Andraste , and you didn't need something magical , something like Ameridan heritage being twisted and lost to history would have worked too .

Instead you get call back to Ameridan , the Dread Wolf in Trespasser etc..

Flemythal also has way more presence as the one answering prayers and granting boons , she did make the choice to help you save the world even if she has her own agenda.

Overall I think the Andrastian faith was more hurt in the process than say the Creators , it became some kind of vague stuff to justify anything the npc don't understand .

 

I think the worst is how wishy washy the Divine spirit was handled , she leave you with a "I have no bloody idea what I am so *shrug* believe what makes you feel good oh hero !"And everyone around you is like "She's a spirit FFS!"

There wasn't much room to have doubt or even have "faith" because the game wasn't even trying to sell you that all that much.

[thats1evildude]

You got the blessing of the Stone from a human woman IN THE FADE?! I don't think you're up on the doctrine of the religions you're championing.

[Zero]

 

The point I agree with is the theme of faith in DAI was not badly done , but there were much *shrugs* and much "ah the Maker works in mysterious ways "

Andraste was also not that great because she is not there beyond the Inquisitor having the title of "Herald of Andraste" .There wasn't any revelation about Andraste , and you didn't need something magical , something like Ameridan heritage being twisted and lost to history would have worked too .

Instead you get call back to Ameridan , the Dread Wolf in Trespasser etc..

Flemythal also has way more presence as the one answering prayers and granting boons , she did make the choice to help you save the world even if she has her own agenda.

Overall I think the Andrastian faith was more hurt in the process than say the Creators , it became some kind of vague stuff to justify anything the npc don't understand .

 

I think the worst is how wishy washy the Divine spirit was handled , she leave you with a "I have no bloody idea what I am so *shrug* believe what makes you feel good oh hero !"And everyone around you is like "She's a spirit FFS!"

There wasn't much room to have doubt or even have "faith" because the game wasn't even trying to sell you that all that much.

 

 

The problem is that those revelations don't have impact in the world. Cassandra and Mother Giselle go unfaced when they learn (or meet, in Cassandra's case) about "the Spirit of the Divine", or that was Solas the one who created the Veil; Josephine just go with "Oh, well, it doesn't matter" when she learn it wasn't Andraste who saved you, and go on. While, the game is pretty obvious with character reactions about the truth of the other religions: the Dalish are treated as morons for still believe in the Evanuris, for example. Even the Dalish Inquisitor gets hurt when she discover the Vallaslin was "another thing the Dalish got wrong".

 

That's why I put Vivienne as the Divine. I hope she will destroy the Chantry, or least shaken it enough to have its core basis challenged. Then, I realize is a player decision and remember the writers will disregard it and do whatever the want with the story...

[Bayonet Hipshot]

TLDR;

You got the blessing of the Stone IN THE FADE?!

 

If Andrastians can somehow justify Andraste's soul lingering around for long after she has died to merely help the protagonist out using faith, is it too far fetched to accept Dwarven protagonists who think that the Stone protected them in the Fade and the "woman" in question (I know we realize that she's Divine) is a Paragon who helped the Dwarf out using faith ?

 

Why is it that Andrastians alone can invoke the name of their God and their prophet in the face of things that they do not understand and say that this is faith but if  non-Andrastians do something like this it is seen as weird or wrong or heretical ?

[Nocte ad Mortem]

That's why I put Vivienne as the Divine. I hope she will destroy the Chantry, or least shaken it enough to have its core basis challenged. Then, I realize is a player decision and remember the writers will disregard it and do whatever the want with the story...

Why do you think Vivienne would be the best option for this? She seems to want to uphold the status quo the most of all the Divine choices.

[thats1evildude]

Even before we learned the truth about the Creators, it still could not have been one of them, as Fen'Harel locked them away. And the dwarves don't actually believe in any personification of the Stone. (Even if they did, she sure as **** wouldn't be hanging out in the Fade handing out magic powers to SURFACERS.)

Andraste at least could have left the Maker's side long enough to grant fantastic power to the Herald.

[Reznore57]

The problem is that those revelations don't have impact in the world. Cassandra and Mother Giselle go unfaced when they learn (or meet, in Cassandra's case) about "the Spirit of the Divine", or that was Solas the one who created the Veil; Josephine just go with "Oh, well, it doesn't matter" when she learn it wasn't Andraste who saved you, and go on. While, the game is pretty obvious with character reactions about the truth of the other religions: the Dalish are treated as morons for still believe in the Evanuris, for example. Even the Dalish Inquisitor gets hurt when she discover the Vallaslin was "another thing the Dalish got wrong".

 

That's why I put Vivienne as the Divine. I hope she will destroy the Chantry, or least shaken it enough to have its core basis challenged. Then, I realize is a player decision and remember the writers will disregard it and do whatever the want with the story...

 

The thing is it was never a sure fact it was Andraste in the Fade , it was understood that's what people would prefer but nobody knew for sure.

So beyond disapointment , it's not earth shattering news.

Josephine says "I'd like to believe it was Andraste." Giselle says "I don't know if you were chosen." and Cassandra is maybe the one who really wants to believe in it , and she's the one who ends up the most disappointed and you have a cutscene with her when you discuss the spirit.

 

When you learn about the veil , it's during Trespasser and companions wonders about the enormity of that ...Dorian goes "imagine what it means !" Vivienne kind of refuse to accept it "If it was the case you'd think humans would have story about it etc..."

Technically speaking the Chant of Light doesn't say the Maker did create the veil , he created the fade and  Thedas , and gave the spark of life.He also gave "opposition in all things" , meaning the fade is malleable and Thedas is not.

Which was true even in the world before the veil.

 

So really no Chantry doctrine was challenged during DAI .

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Even before we learned the truth about the Creators, it still could not have been one of them, as Fen'Harel locked them away. And the dwarves don't actually believe in any personification of the Stone. (Even if they did, she sure as **** wouldn't be hanging out in the Fade.)

Andraste at least could have left the Maker's side long enough to grant fantastic power to the Herald.

 

Why now ? Why not during the Blights or Exalted Marches ? Is it because "the Maker works in mysterious ways" ? Blights were far more devastating to Andrastians compared to the Breach. So were the Exalted Marches to repel the Qunari, they cost a lot of Andrastian lives.

 

& no, Drakon's vision does not count because Southern Chantry claims that only Andraste truly spoke to the Maker and no one else has done so, which is why Leliana's vision was deemed heretical by many members of the Chantry.

[Reznore57]

Why now ? Why not during the Blights or Exalted Marches ? Is it because "the Maker works in mysterious ways" ? Blights were far more devastating to Andrastians compared to the Breach. So were the Exalted Marches to repel the Qunari, they cost a lot of Andrastian lives.

 

& no, Drakon's vision does not count because Southern Chantry claims that only Andraste truly spoke to the Maker and no one else has done so, which is why Leliana's vision was deemed heretical by many members of the Chantry.

 

I think Drakon got a vision from Andraste and not the Maker?

Because Andraste appearing happened in  Chantry lore to the guy that took her ashes , and some Tevinter magisters (at least in the Imperial Chantry ) and to Maferath (although it's a dissident verse of the Chant.)

[Gervaise]

I feel that there is a whole lot that is revealed in DAI that contradicts the faith espoused by the Chantry and even more contained in the source books that are meant to reflect what people in the world of Thedas actually know, even if the majority of the information is only known to a limited group of scholars.   The problem has always been that the PC is never really allowed to challenge the accepted revelation as espoused by the Chantry properly.   

 

Even without the revelations in the game, I took immediate issue with the major principles of Southern Chantry belief as set out in World of Thedas:

1. Magic is a corrupting influence on the world  (This is number one belief despite the fact that the Chant states that magic is the gift of the Maker - why give people something if you know it is corrupting?)

2. Humankind's sin of pride destroyed the Golden City and created the darkspawn.  (I am in serious doubts after various things that have been revealed in Legacy, DAI and Trespasser that the Magisters were ever actually responsible for the creation of the darkspawn but in any case they were a small group of priests and acolytes compared with the entirety of humankind on the world of Thedas)

3. Andraste was the bride of the Maker, prophet and martyr whose ultimate sacrifice must be remembered and honoured.   (No argument with the majority of this.   Not bothered if she is the bride of the Maker or not but I do wonder who or what exactly was talking to her)

4. Humankind has sinned and must seek penance to earn the Maker's forgiveness.   When all peoples praise the Maker, He will return and make the world a paradise.   (As an elf I apparently don't need to seek his forgiveness since my people haven't sinned.   So, yeh, praise the Maker!  Will that do?   Okay so what about all the moral imperatives of the Chant.   Aren't people supposed to follow them?    Very convenient that apparently you just have to sing the Chant everyday but you don't have to follow its teachings.   That really lets all the nobles off the hook, particularly Chevaliers who oppress and abuse the common people.) 

 

When my elf set out for the Conclave (in the company of some Chantry sisters) he thought he might be well to borrow their copy of the Chant to get up to speed on what the human religion was all about.     Since then he has been profoundly disappointed to discover how easily people explain away discrepancies about what it says in the Chant with how the Chantry interprets it, how little people in power seem to follow its moral code and how easily Divines and Emperors have been able to add in and take away bits of the Chant, even though it is claimed to be the word of the Maker to his prophet.      His people might have a rather erroneous view of how benign their gods were but at least the lore about what they taught their followers is actually lived out in their everyday lives.     Elgar'nan stands for fatherhood, Mythal for Justice and Motherhood, Dirthamen taught the value of loyalty and faith in family, Andruil taught to have respect for wild creatures, Sylaise taught housekeeping skills like building a fire and healing with herbs and magic, June how to craft items of practical use in everyday life and Falon'Din is equated with a peaceful death.    This might not be the reality of these gods, any more than the Chant is the reality of the Maker, but at least the elves follow these teachings and they are all positive values.   How I wish my Lavellan had been allowed to point out these things both to the Andrastrians and Solas.

[Gervaise]

The vision/voice of Andraste to the guy who took Andraste's ashes is one line in the main Chant and occurred shortly after her death when he touched the ashes.   Maferath's vision is considered heretical and whatever the Tevinter Magisters saw is not even included in the southern Chant.    Hessarian's contribution was also removed as political propaganda by a later southern Divine, which is rich when you think about it because Drakon's vision is political propaganda that justifies his conquest and destruction of other cults and faiths across southern Thedas.    Drakon gets a whole section and is part of the official Chant.    May be it is justified by claiming it came from Andraste and not the Maker but I feel that is rather irrelevant considering it occurred long after her death and he wiped out any people who dared to contradict him.   Everything in the southern Chant was included with his approval.   He decided which bits went in and which bits to leave out.   Still, if saying the vision comes from Andraste and not the Maker is all that is needed to prevent the accusation of heresy, then what is to stop anyone claiming as much?

[Bizantura]

After the "sex" scandal on the news (mass effect 1) the writers avoid  to trigger a "religious" one.

A religious debate on the news would be really devastating sales wise since it is a very sensitive topic for many peoples.

 

I do think Bioware's writers have rules and regulations to abide by and potential dangerous critisism is one of them.

Dwarfs and elves are exempt of this since they don't exist.

 

Freedom of creativity is all good and well, but does it really exist?

[The Elder King]

If Andrastians can somehow justify Andraste's soul lingering around for long after she has died to merely help the protagonist out using faith, is it too far fetched to accept Dwarven protagonists who think that the Stone protected them in the Fade and the "woman" in question (I know we realize that she's Divine) is a Paragon who helped the Dwarf out using faith ?
 
Why is it that Andrastians alone can invoke the name of their God and their prophet in the face of things that they do not understand and say that this is faith but if  non-Andrastians do something like this it is seen as weird or wrong or heretical ?

The game was build with the focus on Humans and Andraste (until proven wrong). Adding some options for expressing a different theories on the mark would've been nice, but changing the core belief in The game that Andraste picked us is another thing. They added the races to give players the options to play as such, not to change the whole game.  

Why now ? Why not during the Blights or Exalted Marches ? Is it because "the Maker works in mysterious ways" ? Blights were far more devastating to Andrastians compared to the Breach. So were the Exalted Marches to repel the Qunari, they cost a lot of Andrastian lives.
 
& no, Drakon's vision does not count because Southern Chantry claims that only Andraste truly spoke to the Maker and no one else has done so, which is why Leliana's vision was deemed heretical by many members of the Chantry.

The Maker wouldn't interfee with the Blights since according to the lore he was the one who decided to punish mortals with it from the start. The EM were simple conflict, although on a huge scale. The Inquisition plot risked to destroy something the Maker himself created, the Veil, so That's why he might've decided to send Andraste.

Not that it matters since The fact that Veil was created by Solas shatters any logical reason for the Maker's intervention in DAI, other then his existence as the Chantry professes.

[The Elder King]

After the "sex" scandal on the news (mass effect 1) the writers avoid to trigger a "religious" one.
A religious debate on the news would be really devastating sales wise since it is a very sensitive topic for many peoples.

I do think Bioware's writers have rules and regulations to abide by and potential dangerous critisism is one of them.
Dwarfs and elves are exempt of this since they don't exist.

Freedom of creativity is all good and well, but does it really exist?

Considering how many criticism Bioware got, about social issues as Well, I doubt it.
And besides, the Maker isn't exactly portrayed in a positive light. Not to mention the elven lore reveal is a huge blow non the Maker's existence, or even suggest an ancient elf might the the figure inspiring the religion.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

After the "sex" scandal on the news (mass effect 1) the writers avoid  to trigger a "religious" one.

A religious debate on the news would be really devastating sales wise since it is a very sensitive topic for many peoples.

 

I do think Bioware's writers have rules and regulations to abide by and potential dangerous critisism is one of them.

Dwarfs and elves are exempt of this since they don't exist.

 

Freedom of creativity is all good and well, but does it really exist?

I don't really believe this is the reason at all. Andrastrianism is only tenuously similar to real world Abrahamic religions. There's an omnipotent deity involved and they had one "human" prophet associated with them, but even that is handled extremely differently than anything real. I don't really believe anyone cares if Bioware proves their own fake religion to be in-game fake, or not. Well, save for the people that wanted to roleplay a certain way. It isn't like there isn't constantly media that makes fun of real world religions, anyway. 

 

Western views have shifted pretty hard in the last decade, anyway. ME1's "sex scandal" is nothing now. Nearly every game that offers create your own character and romance choices offers same sex options, from big named games like Fallout 4 to low-end production value ones, like The Technomancer. This stuff isn't news anymore. If Bioware was worried about it, they wouldn't have gone on without balking at that criticism, to begin with. I don't believe making Fox News huffy ever effected their choices towards the specific ME issue, even, let alone towards their handling of religion in DA.

[Fredward]

I object on the grounds that I find this weird. When you create something with a story and storytelling devices and lore and such and those things unfold in the way they were designed to do to further the narrative that is not favoritism, that is a story element/plot device fulfilling it's raison d'etre.

 

More to the point there's nothing fundamentally better about an absent god vs active ones. In fact it's not hard to say it's 'favoritism' to portray elven gods and the old gods as real and present and then point at Andrastians and say 'well they're just ranting at the air.'

[Wulfram]

There does seem to be a degree of extra respect accorded to Andrasteanism based on it being pseudo-Christianity. I don't really object that the elven religion should have some of its beliefs proven wrong, though.

What does annoy me is that the attitude in DAI towards elven beliefs is almost always very much that of an outsider looking at a mythology to which they have no real connection, even when you're playing a Dalish character. Particularly since DAI is a game that wants to make "faith" a major themes, but seems barely able to acknowledge that Dalish religion is such a thing.