657 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Where do you keep getting this nonsense that anyone here has said the Dalish don't belive in their own myths? We have all repeatedly said the opposite: that we are asking for proof that their belief is literal rather than metaphorical. So far you've cited two examples: the story about Sylase teaching the elves about gynecology (which Solas 100% does not disprove and the revelation at the temple of Mythal supports, indirectly) and the DA RPG. I don't consider this RPG to be a source of canon, when nothing in any of the games suggests a literal belief in these mythological events. The story with Sylase is completely unlikely the story about El - one is about some poetic fight with the sun, the other is about teaching how children are born. Only one is making fantastical claims in a manner that could be treated as something other than allegorical. It's hard for me to comprehend how you can keep ascribing a position to others they don't hold.

 

The dwarves believe in the Stone, Andrastians believe in the Maker, and those two groups believe in stories associated with both of their respective faiths, but the Dalish can't believe in stories about their gods? The entire point of the codex entries on the gods is to give us insight into what the Dalish believe in, and the codex entries reference that they do certain things believe they believe these stories to be true. However, you're simply ignoring the codex entries. And when there is an overt example outside the codex entries that cites that the Dalish do take the stories literally, you decide to discard it.

 

It sounds to me like you're the one projecting your theory of what faith should be on the Dalish and on this setting.

 

I'm not the one arguing that the Dalish don't believe in their own religious stories.

 

And I'm not going to derail this thread by circling back to your philosophical endorsement of white supremacism.

 

Once again, it isn't the fault of a fictional race of people that the developers decided to make it canon that the children of elves and humans are human. That was a decision made by the developers; blaming the Dalish for it is simply ridiculous.

[Pasquale1234]

We know from the first scene of the Dalish Origin that the Dalish worship their gods. This is also made clear if an Andrastian Warden ignorantly asks one of the Dalish in Zathrian's clan if they actually believe in gods rather than the Maker.

Believing in these gods =/= believing every bit of some story to be literal.
 

In that no one asks whether Andrastians believe that the Maker is actually responsible for creation, or whether or not Andrastians believe that the Maker created spirits or spoke to Andraste. It's a double-standard when people act like the Dalish can't possibly believe in their own religious stories and this thread gets derailed for page after page because of this nonsense.

Once AGAIN - nobody here is acting like the Dalish 'can't possibly believe in their own religious stories'. No matter how many times you say it, it still isn't true.

There hasn't been much discussion in this thread about Andrastianism. It took some pretty big hits in DAI, as have been pointed out - and I don't see anyone here trying to defend it, or proclaim the faith has been officially invalidated. That honor goes to the Dalish faith.

[thesuperdarkone2]

How does that part of the chant light imply the Maker did the veil since the veil is in itself never mentioned nor i saw anything that implied it?

I think the entire chant of light says it more explicitly since the fragments we know aren't even a fraction of the full chant. The entire chant is in WOT and that is some long stuff

[LobselVith8]

 

No one acts this way. You've created a ridiculous standard for what it means for the Dalish to believe their own faith: that they have to believe it all literally and it's actually contrary to their faith to treat any part of it as allegory. The reason no one asks the same point about Andrastianism - which isn't event actually true because my FIRST post in this thread was about how Adrastians love to pretend a part of their own doctrine they said should be believed literally five minutes ago is treated like allegory five minutes later, and accused them basically of being self-serving frauds - is that there's really clear evidence that they have a diversity of views ranging from those who believe certain things are literally true that have been disproven whIle others (like mother Gisele) insist that it's all allegory.

The double standard exists only in the imaginary people you're debating with, not the ones participating in this thread.

 

Considering that I already pointed out codex entries that address that they treat the stories as literal (considering they adopt certain customs because they take them to be true), it's not a double standard, but when I make a good faith effort to address your questions by pointing out the codex entries and the RPG information that the Dalish believe in their religious stories, you discard the information and continue to ask for more proof.

[In Exile]

The dwarves believe in the Stone, Andrastians believe in the Maker, and those two groups believe in stories associated with both of their respective faiths, but the Dalish can't believe in stories about their gods? The entire point of the codex entries on the gods is to give us insight into what the Dalish believe in, and the codex entries reference that they do certain things believe they believe these stories to be true. However, you're simply ignoring the codex entries. And when there is an overt example outside the codex entries that cites that the Dalish do take the stories literally, you decide to discard it.


I'm not the one arguing that the Dalish don't believe in their own religious stories.


Once again, it isn't the fault of a fictional race of people that the developers decided to make it canon that the children of elves and humans are human. That was a decision made by the developers; blaming the Dalish for it is simply ridiculous.

By your standard Andrastians DON'T believe in the Maker. Mother Gisele had a lengthy explanation on how the whole story about Corypheus getting smacked around by the Maker in the Golden City might be entirely allegorical, not literal truth. But it's completely farcical to say Mother Gisele doesn't believe in the Chant of Light. It's nonsense.

There could very well be some - or lots - of Dalish elves that believe every one of their myths is literal truth. I haven't seen any evidence of this point. Even if the common view is that the Dalish believe this is literal truth, I think it's both offensive and wrong to say that a Dalish elf is not allowed to say he or she both believes in the Creators AND believes these stories are allegory. To say otherwise is the worst and most offensive form of bigotry - it's the basis for a lot of IRL religious persecution.

You've never cited even one codex entry that the Dalish - who as you love to point out are not a monolithic hive-mind group of unitary beliefs - take these stories literally. You've just posted codex entry after codex entry of these stories. The furthest you've gone is to give us a story from a single keeper that talks about June and Sylase giving the People (which may well be a reference to the elvhen) knowledge about a great many things. The fact that they literally believe this one myth - and you haven't adduced proof all Dalish believe it - isn't proof they believe other myths literally. Myths don't work on the transitive property.

I'm not going to comment on your active endorsement of the philosophical foundation of white supremacism.

[LobselVith8]

Believing in these gods =/= believing every bit of some story to be literal.

 

The stories that explain June and Sylaise and talk about how the Dalish honor them clearly don't treat their religious stories as allegory. Even the information from the tabletop RPG confirms the same, including how the Dalish believe that Mythal was born of the sea.

 

Once AGAIN - nobody here is acting like the Dalish 'can't possibly believe in their own religious stories'. No matter how many times you say it, it still isn't true.

 

Then I don't see the point in contesting the Dalish taking their religious stories literally.

[In Exile]

The stories that explain June and Sylaise and talk about how the Dalish honor them clearly don't treat their religious stories as allegory. Even the information from the tabletop RPG confirms the same, including how the Dalish believe that Mythal was born of the sea.


Then I don't see the point in contesting the Dalish taking their religious stories literally.

The fact that the "Dalish" - which are not a hive mind group of unitary belief and attitude as you repeatedly point out except apparently when it is not convenient for you - belive the story of June and Sylase literally does not mean they believe all the myths literally. A codex entry on what the "Dalish" believe means nothing.

There are codex entries that 1) Andrastians believe the Maker abandoned the world and 2) the Maker literally kicked Corypheus out of the Golden City (this part is in the Chant of Light). Leliana explicitly tells us she does not believe in 1. Mother Gisele tells us she does not necessarily believe in 2. Are Leliana and Mother Gisele not Andrastians? Does every single Andrastian without exception believe in the literal truth of all their myths? Of course not.

The only person in this thread to advance a unitary and absolutist view of what the Dalish MUST believe is you. I have continously stressed that religious belief is complicated and we can't say the revelations by Solas undercut this faith without knowing a lot more about what individual Dalish clans and individual Dalish elves believe. You insist they can only believe ONE kind of thing. That's nonsense, and it's not even supported by the game.

[LobselVith8]

By your standard Andrastians DON'T believe in the Maker. Mother Gisele had a lengthy explanation on how the whole story about Corypheus getting smacked around by the Maker in the Golden City might be entirely allegorical, not literal truth. But it's completely farcical to say Mother Gisele doesn't believe in the Chant of Light. It's nonsense.

 

Except there's a difference between "some people may take it as allegory" and "virtually everyone takes it as allegory", and you were persistently acting as if it was absurd that the Dalish would believe these stories literally. In a world of magic, dragons, spirits, and another plane of existence.

 

I'm not going to comment on your active endorsement of the philosophical foundation of white supremacism.

 

I'm Latino, so you might want to try a different approach if you're going to attempt to demonize me. And I bring up the 'human/elf' issue because your bias against the Dalish goes to such extreme lengths that you vilify a fictional race of people because the developers decided to make the children of humans and elves entirely human, with such examples as Alistair and Michel. Discussing the Dalish with you is a moot point when you're willing to demonize them over the worldbuilding choices made by the developers.

[Sah291]

The stories of the Creators are framed quite literally in the same way that Andrastians literally believe that the Maker is responsible for creation. They are somewhat reminiscent of some Native American tales that are also taken literally - stories that explain their people and the world around them. Elgar'nan being a mage would mean that he isn't the son of the Sun, that he never fought the Sun, and that would mean other stories - like Mythal being born of the sea - also wouldn't be true.

If they were tyrannical mages - assuming Trespasser is true and the Evanuris are as villainous as Solas claimed - I also don't see why the Dalish would continue to believe in them. The Creators they believed in weren't villainous beings.

Ok, but no one (here) is saying they don't believe their own stories. They are saying they are allowed to still see value in them even if some details aren't quite exact, or as they learn more about their past.

Furthermore, it's not a canon of myths and stories. It's possible for some to be literal accounts of history, while other stories are more poetry or song, and others that are allegory, or even speaking to a mystical/magical reality behind the literal meaning, that is not so easily spoken of literally. The Andrastians are allowed to view the Chant this way, but not elves with their own lore.

[Pasquale1234]

Then I don't see the point in contesting the Dalish taking their religious stories literally.

The point - the entire reason for this conversation - is your insistence that Dalish beliefs (Part 1) have been invalidated by some material in DAI and its DLCs (Part 2).

In order to examine this position you put forth, we first need to determine the exact content of Part 1. Most of what I've seen wrt Dalish beliefs have been stories, legends, folklore passed down from generation to generation orally. Just exactly what any of them believe has never been clear to me. Some may see these stories as metaphors / allegories / parables, and some may take them literally. I don't know. You, otoh, seem to think you know exactly what they believe, and it looks to me like your position is that they believe every bit of it to be literally true.

That's the entire reason for the discussion we've been having over the last several pages. One really can't determine whether Part 2 invalidates Part 1 without knowing the content of both parts.

[In Exile]

Except there's a difference between "some people may take it as allegory" and "virtually everyone takes it as allegory", and you were persistently acting as if it was absurd that the Dalish would believe these stories literally. In a world of magic, dragons, spirits, and another plane of existence.


I'm Latino, so you might want to try a different approach if you're going to attempt to demonize me. And I bring up the 'human/elf' issue because your bias against the Dalish goes to such extreme lengths that you vilify a fictional race of people because the developers decided to make the children of humans and elves entirely human, with such examples as Alistair and Michel. Discussing the Dalish with you is a moot point when you're willing to demonize them over the worldbuilding choices made by the developers.

At no point did I treat it as "absurd" that the Dalish took some of their myths literally. I said there was no evidence they took them literally. I continue to think there is no evidence any measurable number of Dalish elves taken them literally.

I'm Jewish. You have repeatedly said that there is nothing improper about the idea that elves have a moral obligation to breed with other elves to preserve the elven "race" because this is the only way to make more elves. This is exactly what white supremacists believe IRL. Your logic is that the only difference - the only reason these scumbags are wrong - is that it's a fact in DA that humans + elves = humans. That's just an endorsement of white supremacists. It's saying that the flaw in their view isn't their racism - it's that their racism isn't supported by evidence. That is rank insanity. Any group that goes out of their way to endorse a racial utopia, to treat an entire race of people as disease bearing pests, holds an awful view of virulent racism that echoes 1939. The Dalish demonize themselves by believing in racial essentialism.

[Reznore57]

About the Dalish creation myth , I personaly believe most of the things are "somewhat " true.

I'm pretty sure Elgarn'han fought some "Sun" entity , I just don't believe it's the sun you see in the sky .

I also believe something bad happened after the Sun was defeated and Mythal figured out a solution.I don't believe she did create the Moon in the sky.

 

Besides the creation of the elven empire and the birth of the elves and Evanuris hasn't been explore at all.Nor the relationship between dragons and Mythal , or what was the Golden city for the ancient elves.

We learn some details about the Titans and very vague hints about the Forgotten Ones.

 

Everything anti Evanuris Godhood we learn from Solas , and in Fen Harel refuge where he wanted to warn people the Evanuris weren't Gods.Same thing we find in a Forgotten One lair.

But it was another story in the temple of Mythal.Even in the broken library the ancient elves were crying out for their Gods.

So it's not really that clear cut.

And again Mythal , she is presented as a Goddess , and even Solas wants to do the ritual in her temple and he is in awe of her...

He thought that her getting killed was the ultimate crossing the line ...when the Evanuris kill numerous people before.

[Pasquale1234]

Considering that I already pointed out codex entries that address that they treat the stories as literal (considering they adopt certain customs because they take them to be true).

You do realize that stories can inspire people to adopt certain customs even if they don't necessarily believe the stories to be literally true, right?

[LobselVith8]

At no point did I treat it as "absurd" that the Dalish took some of their myths literally. I said there was no evidence they took them literally. I continue to think there is no evidence any measurable number of Dalish elves taken them literally.

There's no evidence the Dalish don't take their religious stories literally; it's no different than how Andrastians take their religious stories literally.

I'm Jewish. You have repeatedly said that there is nothing improper about the idea that elves have a moral obligation to breed with other elves to preserve the elven "race" because this is the only way to make more elves. This is exactly what white supremacists believe IRL. Your logic is that the only difference - the only reason these scumbags are wrong - is that it's a fact in DA that humans + elves = humans. That's just an endorsement of white supremacists. It's saying that the flaw in their view isn't their racism - it's that their racism isn't supported by evidence. That is rank insanity. Any group that goes out of their way to endorse a racial utopia, to treat an entire race of people as disease bearing pests, holds an awful view of virulent racism that echoes 1939. The Dalish demonize themselves by believing in racial essentialism.

Considering my Surana Warden romanced Morrigan and my Hawke romanced Merrill, that doesn't make any sense. I've pointed out that their children would be human, I've never said elves were under any obligation to only romance certain people.

You were the one to blame the Dalish over the children of humans and elves being human, and I found that ludicrous. And you are blaming the Dalish for how the Arlathan elves were reputed to view humans. It never stops with you.

[In Exile]

There's no evidence the Dalish don't take their religious stories literally; it's no different than how Andrastians take their religious stories literally.

You mean except for the fact that there's very clear evidence from Mother Gisele they don't take them literally? And from people like Leliana that they hold actively heretical beliefs that contradict their doctrine?

There's no evidence the Dalish do take them literally. You're treating very diverse groups as if they were a unitary hive mind.

[Seraphim24]

Solas' qualifications for divinity are pretty different, but one thing he says is that a real god wouldn't need to prove themselves or enslave people (and people, as we know, includes spirits for Solas). Both Corypheus and the Evanuris crossed this line for him.

He likes the idea of the (absent) Maker for this reason. The fact that some of his actions have perhaps influenced Andrastian lore (about the creation of the Veil) are probably not lost on him either. Which makes me wonder if that comment to Cassandra was not also a bit of pride in some way.

 

Indeed!

[LobselVith8]

The point - the entire reason for this conversation - is your insistence that Dalish beliefs (Part 1) have been invalidated by some material in DAI and its DLCs (Part 2).

In order to examine this position you put forth, we first need to determine the exact content of Part 1. Most of what I've seen wrt Dalish beliefs have been stories, legends, folklore passed down from generation to generation orally. Just exactly what any of them believe has never been clear to me. Some may see these stories as metaphors / allegories / parables, and some may take them literally. I don't know. You, otoh, seem to think you know exactly what they believe, and it looks to me like your position is that they believe every bit of it to be literally true.

That's the entire reason for the discussion we've been having over the last several pages. One really can't determine whether Part 2 invalidates Part 1 without knowing the content of both parts.

Simply put, I'd say that the Evanuris being described as villainous would invalidate the Dalish belief in the Creators, who they didn't view as malevolent beings.

[Kabraxal]

There's no evidence the Dalish don't take their religious stories literally; it's no different than how Andrastians take their religious stories literally.

Considering my Surana Warden romanced Morrigan and my Hawke romanced Merrill, that doesn't make any sense. I've pointed out that their children would be human, I've never said elves were under any obligation to only romance certain people.
You were the one to blame the Dalish over the children of humans and elves being human, and I found that ludicrous.

And yet when someone like Sera discovers there is an actual city in the fade, it surprises her. So obviously not all Andrasteans took the chant literally at all times... This insustence that the elves must believe in a literal truth of these stories hopds no merit. All we know is that they tell these stories. That says mothing of how they interpret them.

[LobselVith8]

You do realize that stories can inspire people to adopt certain customs even if they don't necessarily believe the stories to be literally true, right?

And when the codex entries read that they believe the stories to be true, do we ignore them to continue this discussion over whether or not the Dalish believe in their own religious stories?

They're a religious and cultural group aimed at trying to stay true to their way of life; they're not a pan-elven group or anything like that, so it's not like there would be many divergent views about their religion among the People.

[Pasquale1234]

And when the codex entries read that they believe the stories to be true, do we ignore them to continue this discussion over whether or not the Dalish believe in their own religious stories?

I'm not nearly as sure as you are that the codex entries indicate they believe it all to be literal.
 

They're a religious and cultural group aimed at trying to stay true to their way of life; they're not a pan-elven group or anything like that, so it's not like there would be many divergent views about their religion among the People.

I could walk into just about any church, temple, synagogue, what-have-you and pass out a questionnaire about their faith/beliefs, and I *guarantee* you they would not all provide exactly the same answers. Groups such as these congregations come together over some shared core beliefs, shared core values, etc. - but by no means do they all believe exactly the same stuff.

The Dalish are raised within a specific clan's culture.

[LobselVith8]

And yet when someone like Sera discovers there is an actual city in the fade, it surprises her. So obviously not all Andrasteans took the chant literally at all times... This insustence that the elves must believe in a literal truth of these stories hopds no merit. All we know is that they tell these stories. That says mothing of how they interpret them.

Is the discussion whether or not some may not take it literally, rather than all of them not taking it literally? Because I was under the impression you were speaking of the latter, rather than the former.

I can understand the former, but the latter makes no sense in the context of a cultural and religious group like the Dalish. And the Dalish are a religious group of elves (that's one of the primary reasons why they are targeted by Andrastian humans).

It's no different than how Andrastians believe in religious stories about the Maker. Sure, some can see it as allegory, but it's ridiculous to argue that all of them do when these are their religious stories.

[Pasquale1234]

It's no different than how Andrastians believe in religious stories about the Maker. Sure, some can see it as allegory, but it's ridiculous to argue that all of them do when these are their religious stories.

We've provided examples of Andrastians not all believing exactly the same stuff. They didn't all believe the same things about the Herald.

We've seen some signs that some Andrastian beliefs are incorrect, but I don't see anyone here trying to say their faith has been invalidated. Instead, they'll offer up some excuse about "maybe the Maker....".

[LobselVith8]

We've provided examples of Andrastians not all believing exactly the same stuff. They didn't all believe the same things about the Herald.

We've seen some signs that some Andrastian beliefs are incorrect, but I don't see anyone here trying to say their faith has been invalidated.

I'd say that the Evanuris being villains who enslaved ancient elves would invalidate the religion of the Dalish.

[Pasquale1234]

I'd say that the Evanuris being villains who enslaved ancient elves would invalidate the religion of the Dalish.

Or invalidate some assumptions they may have made about the Evanuris.

You can be a villain and slaver and still have done the things the elves believe they did.

[LobselVith8]

Or invalidate some assumptions they may have made about the Evanuris.

You can be a villain and slaver and still have done the things the elves believe they did.

The reason the Dalish follow their faith is because of their view on the gods. To find out that the Evanuris were villainous beings who subjugated your ancestors would make it rather pointless to follow the religion.