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[In Exile]

And when the codex entries read that they believe the stories to be true, do we ignore them to continue this discussion over whether or not the Dalish believe in their own religious stories?

They're a religious and cultural group aimed at trying to stay true to their way of life; they're not a pan-elven group or anything like that, so it's not like there would be many divergent views about their religion among the People.

That's absolutely not true. I'm going to flag my Jewish card again. Even within a single denomination you will see a diversity of views. In fact a great source of diversity is what it even means to "stay true" to an identity and preserve a culture.

But I'm going to bookmark this post for whenever you suggest we can't make general inferences about what all clans believe from what a single clan believes.

[In Exile]

I'd say that the Evanuris being villains who enslaved ancient elves would invalidate the religion of the Dalish.

The ancient elves clearly disagree with you. Ask Abelas whether he think Mythal is a villain who enslaved him.

[LobselVith8]

That's absolutely not true. I'm going to flag my Jewish card again. Even within a single denomination you will see a diversity of views. In fact a great source of diversity is what it even means to "stay true" to an identity and preserve a culture.

But I'm going to bookmark this post for whenever you suggest we can't make general inferences about what all clans believe from what a single clan believes.

I don't think I'm ever going to claim that a religious group doesn't follow their own religion, but go ahead.

[Seraphim24]

Just so we're clear though, nearly everyone in the world hates "Jewish people," not just "white supremacists."

 

I read somewhere that minus pogroms and etc over thousands of years from all kinds of people, the population of "Jewish people" would be like 300 million instead of 13 million that it is now.

[In Exile]

I don't think I'm ever going to claim that a religious group doesn't follow their own religion, but go ahead.

No one apart from the imaginary people you're debating have ever said this point. Certainly no one in this thread has said such nonsense.

You have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to a persecuted cultural/religious group trying to preserve that shared identity in the face of a majority trying to stamp them out. The result is absolutely NOT a uniform view, even among the people who are religious. Just look at someone who is Reform vs. a Chabadnic.

[LobselVith8]

The ancient elves clearly disagree with you. Ask Abelas whether he think Mythal is a villain who enslaved him.

Have I become Fen'Harel now? And I don't recall Abelas saying anything to invalidate what Solas says.

Unless Solas was lying and the Evanuris weren't villains, I don't see why the Dalish would continue to follow their religion if they find out the truth.

[In Exile]

Have I become Fen'Harel now? And I don't recall Abelas saying anything to invalidate what Solas says.

Unless Solas was lying and the Evanuris weren't villains, I don't see why the Dalish would continue to follow their religion if they find out the truth.

We have actual codex entries written by Abelas on his relationship with Mythal. He takes his name to express the devastation he feels at her loss. I will find them. But to suggest he sees Mythal as a villain or himself as a slave is unreal. He does see himself as bound by a duty but that is not the same.

Solas believes they were villainous. That doesn't make them villains. We have no idea what "the" truth is about the Evanuris. We have Solas's truth.

The truth the Dalish carry with them is very different.

[LobselVith8]

You have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to a persecuted cultural/religious group trying to preserve that shared identity in the face of a majority trying to stamp them out. The result is absolutely NOT a uniform view, even among the people who are religious. Just look at someone who is Reform vs. a Chabadnic.

The stories clearly differ from time to time, as we see with Merrill telling a different story about Fen'Harel's betrayal (with a weapon) than the one we read about, or with the Dalish who follow the Forgotten Ones and have crimson vallaslin, but a religious people of people will believe in their own religion, for the most part.

[In Exile]

The stories clearly differ from time to time, as we see with Merrill telling a different story about Fen'Harel's betrayal (with a weapon) than the one we read about, or with the Dalish who follow the Forgotten Ones and have crimson vallaslin, but a religious people of people will believe in their own religion, for the most part.

That's a meaningless tautology. People are not a hive mind. They need not have the same views. At least you've admitted your mistake: there's no reason to believe there's any commonality in what the Dalish believe.

Edit: And how do you even square away the fact these stories change with your insistence the Dalish literally believe them to be true? Are you saying they literally believe contradictory stories are true?

[Melbella]

We have actual codex entries written by Abelas on his relationship with Mythal. He takes his name to express the devastation he feels at her loss. I will find them. But to suggest he sees Mythal as a villain or himself as a slave is unreal. He does see himself as bound by a duty but that is not the same.

Solas believes they were villainous. That doesn't make them villains. We have no idea what "the" truth is about the Evanuris. We have Solas's truth.

The truth the Dalish carry with them is very different.

We also have something else Solas tells us: spirits reflect what people believe. Maybe after millennia of the Dalish believing their gods to be benevolent protectors, whatever remains of their spirits can have changed to reflect that. Whatever they were before, in Solas' time, doesn't mean that is what they are now, or might be if ever released.

[Xerrai]

Have I become Fen'Harel now? And I don't recall Abelas saying anything to invalidate what Solas says.

Unless Solas was lying and the Evanuris weren't villains, I don't see why the Dalish would continue to follow their religion if they find out the truth.

Solas gave but one viewpoint.
The ancient memories of the Vir Dirthara give another.
Solas viewed the evanuris as malevolent slavers. But others viewed them as gods that would save/care for them.
And neither of them would have to lie about it--that would be simply what they believed.

[Seraphim24]

You know the Evanuris being malevolent slavers and as figures of high authority, prestige, and power are not mutually inconsistent.

 

That's kind of how I view the dynamic in the US, to be honest between lots of different groups.

[LobselVith8]

That's a meaningless tautology. People are not a hive mind. They need not have the same views. At least you've admitted your mistake: there's no reason to believe there's any commonality in what the Dalish believe.

At no point did I claim the Dalish were a "hive mind".

Edit: And how do you even square away the fact these stories change with your insistence the Dalish literally believe them to be true? Are you saying they literally believe contradictory stories are true?

So you're saying that followers of a religion can't possibly believe in their religious stories if there isn't a consensus among them all about the religious stories?

[In Exile]

At no point did I claim the Dalish were a "hive mind".


So you're saying that followers of a religion can't possibly believe in their religious stories if there isn't a consensus among them all about the religious stories?

 

It sounds like you have a real issue with what this LobselVith8 person has to say. Maybe take it up with him, particularly with the suggestion that the "Dalish" have one unitary view, are one unitary and indivisible culture, and that we can treat them all as an inseparable whole. He's the only one who's been suggesting that this entire thread. To whit:

 

And when the codex entries read that they believe the stories to be true, do we ignore them to continue this discussion over whether or not the Dalish believe in their own religious stories?

They're a religious and cultural group aimed at trying to stay true to their way of life; they're not a pan-elven group or anything like that, so it's not like there would be many divergent views about their religion among the People.

 

[LobselVith8]

Solas gave but one viewpoint.

If - and let me repeat that I'm using if once again for this scenario - Solas is telling the truth about the brutality and the slavery of the Evanuris, I see no reason why the Dalish who discover this would continue following the elven pantheon. Their religion describes the Creators as anything but tyrannical slavers.

The ancient memories of the Vir Dirthara give another.
Solas viewed the evanuris as malevolent slavers. But others viewed them as gods that would save/care for them.
And neither of them would have to lie about it--that would be simply what they believed.

Which is another line of discussion entirely from the one I was involved with. Admittedly, I'd hope that the Creators wouldn't be turned into one-dimensional caricatures, but I don't get the impression from Trespasser that this will be the case.

[thats1evildude]

I agree with Lobselvith that the elven religion has been invalidated. Unlike Lobselvith, I think that's absolutely a good thing. Believing in the superiority of the ancient civilization was holding the elves back.

[LobselVith8]

It sounds like you have a real issue with what this LobselVith8 person has to say. Maybe take it up with him, particularly with the suggestion that the "Dalish" have one unitary view, are one unitary and indivisible culture, and that we can treat them all as an inseparable whole. He's the only one who's been suggesting that this entire thread. To whit:

You do realize you quoted me saying that the Dalish generally believe in their own religion, not that every single Dalish in existence had the same views on every single subject imaginable, right?

[Reznore57]

If - and let me repeat that I'm using if once again for this scenario - Solas is telling the truth about the brutality and the slavery of the Evanuris, I see no reason why the Dalish who discover this would continue following the elven pantheon. Their religion describes the Creators as anything but tyrannical slavers.

 

 

And their lore describe Arlathan as being an utopia...where elves were debating whatever for ages , all chill and hippie like.

Turns out the Dalish got a lot of things right , and got a lot of things wrong.

The Ancient Elvhen empire and the ancient elves were ruthless , it wasn't about a bunch of good gods vs a bunch of bad gods.

People were fighting about magic and power , and they had a lot of those to fight about.

There were debates of course but lots of magically clubbing each others on the head too.

 

As it stands the thing the Creators are the most worshipped for are true.They did build a great empire for the elves and kept it in one piece for a long time.

Once the Evanuris were disposed of  , things fell to pieces.

Although it is implied they were at the end ruining all the things , no one was able to counter what Solas did once the Evanuris were trapped.So clearly without those Gods , the elves as an empire weren't able to survive the whims of a rebel "non god" mage.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The ancient elves clearly disagree with you. Ask Abelas whether he think Mythal is a villain who enslaved him.

 

Orana believed her life was was fine as a slave to Hadriana. That doesn't necessarily mean Hadriana wasn't a villain.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Anyway I think Andraste was overtly favored... Gaider and Bio created her as an inspirational messianic figure.

 

The ironic thing is that Andraste is modeled after Joan of Arc and most people don't really know the real Joan of Arc, preferring to simply think of her as a badass woman.

 

Source:- http://www.history.c...out-joan-of-arc

 

In other words, Joan of Arc is a mess that people assume to be a Saint. Just imagine the reaction if Andraste was revealed to be a mess that people simply assumed to be a prophet.

[Seraphim24]

^ All those things make me even more convinced of her greatness to be honest.

 

There's things I could quibble with such as some of her commanders like Duke of Alencon and others saying while she did not fight she was instrumental in some strategic decisions, certainly the entire shape of the siege of Orleans changed after her appearance, I know that article says "were rejected" but that evidence is directly contradicted by some of her closest commander friends basically.

 

I mean, we can sort of get it too in a sense, Gilles De Rais was probably at least as instrumental in influencing the actual military outcomes, and of course no one needs to go digging to figure out all that was wrong with his story.

 

Actually reading about it I was surprised how many battles she was involved in, I thought it was basically just like one, but she basically changed the course of the Hundred Years war.

 

As for her volatility yeah I mean France was amazingly messed up at the time, so I don't think I'd be surprised by that, she certainly would have a self-righteousness to her. I think most of the depictions though tend to get a lot of that (neither exaggerating or under-selling) the ultimate portrait. My reference is the TV miniseries that came out in 1999.

 

[Seraphim24]

I think it's the "mess" portion that's precisely why they often serve as inspirational figures.... certainly as compared to plastic copy paste heroism.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

^ All those things make me even more convinced of her greatness to be honest.

 

*snip*

 

So a woman with a volatile temper and multiple mental disorders who didn't actually fight is somehow great ? Help me out here because I'm not getting it.

[Seraphim24]

Well it didn't say "multiple mental disorders," it just said modern doctors would of labeled some of these things as X or Y in their opinion.

 

I don't know, you could say she was that, or you could say she daydreamed a lot, was highly passionate, and that strategic decisions were more valuable to the outcome than necessarily sword in hand. I mean, so she didn't attack anyone at the Battle of Patay, but deciding to take on the engagement in the first place (and which is credited to Joan of Arc's influence) was probably one of the most influential military moments of the hundred years war.

 

https://en.wikipedia...Battle_of_Patay

 

Anyway I'm just saying I bumped into the "True story" of Joan of Arc a while ago and I didn't find it especially convincing, rather the opposite. Besides, the visions and such have been a part of her story from the very beginning.

[straykat]

Nice to see where the convo went after I left. I'm not needed here