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[thats1evildude]

I don't see these being the same. The elvhen were a superior ancient civilisation. Solas actively believes in this point, for example. There's a difference between the deification of the past the Dalish engage in and the fact that relatively speaking the elvhen did have a magical empire of a kind that is incomprehensible to modern Thedas. I mean, despite all the love for him in the fanbase Solas is basically a racial supremacist.

Superior in power, perhaps. But they also destroyed themselves and nearly the entire world. Modern Thedas has not yet come that close to extinction.

[Gervaise]

Yes, I agree that if the Dalish should lose faith in their gods that is no reason why they should automatically convert to the Chantry.   However, until such time as they are released, nothing has really changed.   The ancient trickster Fen'Harel rubbished the memory of their gods.   Well he was the one who imprisoned them so of course he'd be trying to justify himself.  Particularly since the Dalish teach they trusted him and he betrayed them.    They know their gods are shut away and can't answer them.   The revelation about Mythal might give them pause since Lavellan actually met her and so she was able to confirm her murder if nothing else.   However, they have based their culture on following a model for living that they believe was given to them by their gods.   For all they know it might have been.   In any case, it has served them well enough since the fall of the Dales and ensured their continued survival.   So there is nothing wrong headed or stupid in having continued "faith" in that. 

 

If the city elves were having a wonderful time of it through being faithful to Andrastrianism, they might think it worth converting but the fact is they aren't and that is not likely to change much even under Leliana.    As the story in Masked Empire about the attitude of the University to Celene's suggestion to admit anyone who was sponsored by a noble, "You can lead a horse to water but......."

 

Also modern Thedas came very close to extinction during the 1st Blight.    It was only through the initiative of the first Grey Wardens that civilisation was saved, and some of the knowledge to defeat the Blight did in fact come from elven slaves.    So all those old memories handed down turned out to be useful for something. 

[Sah291]

@LobselVith8,

I still don't follow what you mean by traditional gods. According to the David Gaider quote you posted, the Dalish already believed they didn't create the world, but were born out of it. So how does finding out they didn't create the world invalidate them, when they already don't believe that? Or the fact that they could have once been mages or clan elders, who were revered and achieved apotheosis....because that's pretty much what Dalish lore already says about Ghilan'nain.

And yeah, this is a very specific, abstract, and very different idea of "godhood" but it isn't one the Dalish would seem to have a conflict with. They view their gods as being like powerful and wise teachers, and clan ancestors who taught them about the world and who they could learn from and emulate.

What invalidates them is the discovery they weren't very wise or enlightened at all. If that is the case, they didn't deserve to have followers, and the Dalish might abandon them or even join Fen'Harel. But whether they were or weren't worthy of being gods, isn't something Dalish Inquisitor can ever address. You are locked into agreeing they were false.

Now, that makes sense for an Andrastian. Humans who follow the Chant prohibit the idea of humans being divine or being gods, and the Tevinter Magisters are held up as examples of hubris. For good reason, it's an easy way for some tyrant out there to claim they are a "god" and perform some blood magic that seems powerful and enslave people. Which they don't want.

[Seraphim24]

He's not given more slack...it's just that there is racism and cultural conflict everywhere in the game...only humans can be nobility or figures in the Chantry.. there's mages vesus templars, Qunari, Dwarves... it just isn't something only the elves are at fault for. It's a bigger issue than just that.

I also don't think it is supremacism in Solas' case. He is the person responsible for waging a slave rebellion and destroying his own civilization. He regrets it. But also, he's very obviously being set up to fail, so I don't see how that is glorification of such ideas. It's commentary on how misguided it is, and to show people are maybe not appreciating what they have or focusing on current problems.

 

Yeah I don't really think Solas is a racial supremacist actually, he's just part of this insanely malevolent cult and broke ties with them essentially.

 

The Evanuris was basically super evil and kind of wanton and reckless, but supremacist?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well his plan is to destroy all other peoples to bring back his own.

[Seraphim24]

Well his plan is to destroy all other peoples to bring back his own.

 

That doesn't necessarily indicate he believes Elves are inherently superior to others.

[Sah291]

Yeah I don't really think Solas is a racial supremacist actually, he's just part of this insanely malevolent cult and broke ties with them essentially.

The Evanuris was basically super evil and kind of wanton and reckless, but supremacist?

I think for Solas this is about justice for the elves. He sees himself as giving back something he stole from them. I don't think he wants to bring back the empire exactly as it was though.

As for the Evanuris, they probably saw themselves as superior somehow... but it might not have started that way. I mean, they could have started off like the Chantry or Inquisition, and just went corrupt after years of war and fighting red lyrium or whatever. Or they could have been power hungry jerks right from the start who forced people to worship them and controlled anyone from ever challenging them. From what Solas says it kind of sounds to me more like the first. They started as heroes who protected the elves in a war, and grew corrupt.

[Steelcan]

That doesn't necessarily indicate he believes Elves are inherently superior to others.

not dead trumps dead on the superiority scale

[jlb524]

That doesn't necessarily indicate he believes Elves are inherently superior to others.

 

Not all elves, but some of them.  Like, the super special kind.

[LobselVith8]

Yes, I agree that if the Dalish should lose faith in their gods that is no reason why they should automatically convert to the Chantry.   However, until such time as they are released, nothing has really changed.   The ancient trickster Fen'Harel rubbished the memory of their gods.   Well he was the one who imprisoned them so of course he'd be trying to justify himself.  Particularly since the Dalish teach they trusted him and he betrayed them.    They know their gods are shut away and can't answer them.   The revelation about Mythal might give them pause since Lavellan actually met her and so she was able to confirm her murder if nothing else.   However, they have based their culture on following a model for living that they believe was given to them by their gods.   For all they know it might have been.   In any case, it has served them well enough since the fall of the Dales and ensured their continued survival.   So there is nothing wrong headed or stupid in having continued "faith" in that. 

 

Yeah, the Dalish are still a nomadic group so there wouldn't really be much of a drastic shift in how they live their lives - they may revise their vallaslin to represent something other than the Evanuris, for example, but they would still hunt, work, look after each other, protect the clan from the dangers of the wilderness and any humans who threaten them, so the basics would remain the same. I don't see them capitulating to conversion to the Chantry or human rule after the centuries they've suffered simply to maintain their autonomy.

 

Also modern Thedas came very close to extinction during the 1st Blight.    It was only through the initiative of the first Grey Wardens that civilisation was saved, and some of the knowledge to defeat the Blight did in fact come from elven slaves.    So all those old memories handed down turned out to be useful for something. 

 

True, the elves were said to be instrumental in helping create the Joining ritual.

[Seraphim24]

I just thought of this randomly but for renumerations on religions that....

 

Spoiler

turned out to be kind of horrible maniac deranged kind of cults the Breath of Fire series (specially 2 and 3) are worth checking out...

 

https://en.wikipedia.../Breath_of_Fire

[Pasquale1234]

Well his plan is to destroy all other peoples to bring back his own.

It might be more accurate to say that he plans to bring back his own people.

The destruction of everyone else is just collateral damage in his mind.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It might be more accurate to say that he plans to bring back his own people.

The destruction of everyone else is just collateral damage in his mind.

This is *probably* true, but it is also a distinction without a difference, in my mind.

[Seraphim24]

not dead trumps dead on the superiority scale

 

 

Not all elves, but some of them.  Like, the super special kind.

 

 

This is *probably* true, but it is also a distinction without a difference, in my mind.

 

He views people in terms of racial categories, and is operating on the principle that one category of people needs to be saved and the other does not.

 

That still doesn't mean he inherently views one as superior to the other, he's operating on logic not emotion.

[Pasquale1234]

This is *probably* true, but it is also a distinction without a difference, in my mind.

Well... your original statement sounds like he's going to purposely and intentionally destroy other people to achieve his goal of bringing back his own.

As I understand it, achieving his goal of bringing back his people doesn't really require the destruction of everyone else. It's just a side effect of what he has to do to achieve his goal.

Shrug.

[Steelcan]

Well... your original statement sounds like he's going to purposely and intentionally destroy other people to achieve his goal of bringing back his own.

As I understand it, achieving his goal of bringing back his people doesn't really require the destruction of everyone else. It's just a side effect of what he has to do to achieve his goal.

Shrug.

he indicates that there's no way around it and yet he persists.

[Gwydden]

He views people in terms of racial categories, and is operating on the principle that one category of people needs to be saved and the other does not.

 

That still doesn't mean he inherently views one as superior to the other, he's operating on logic not emotion.

You don't think racists use logic to justify their beliefs? After all, no one sees themselves as the villain, and people tend to have reasons why they think others are inferior or deserve different treatment from the one they enjoy themselves.

 

Solas has clearly established that he considers his world worth burning the current one for. Modern Thedosians are not valuable enough for their lives to be more than an unfortunate sacrifice waiting to happen. At the very least, he is a cultural supremacist.

[In Exile]

That doesn't necessarily indicate he believes Elves are inherently superior to others.

 

He goes on at length to explain how he didn't even see non-elvhen (and I use that spelling because modern elves were out) as people. Even now he thinks mass extermination is OK to bring back his people, and throughout the game he advances ridiculously racist views. Solas is a racist. A beloved racist, but certainly a racist.

[In Exile]

@LobselVith8,

I still don't follow what you mean by traditional gods. According to the David Gaider quote you posted, the Dalish already believed they didn't create the world, but were born out of it. So how does finding out they didn't create the world invalidate them, when they already don't believe that? Or the fact that they could have once been mages or clan elders, who were revered and achieved apotheosis....because that's pretty much what Dalish lore already says about Ghilan'nain.

And yeah, this is a very specific, abstract, and very different idea of "godhood" but it isn't one the Dalish would seem to have a conflict with. They view their gods as being like powerful and wise teachers, and clan ancestors who taught them about the world and who they could learn from and emulate.

What invalidates them is the discovery they weren't very wise or enlightened at all. If that is the case, they didn't deserve to have followers, and the Dalish might abandon them or even join Fen'Harel. But whether they were or weren't worthy of being gods, isn't something Dalish Inquisitor can ever address. You are locked into agreeing they were false.

Now, that makes sense for an Andrastian. Humans who follow the Chant prohibit the idea of humans being divine or being gods, and the Tevinter Magisters are held up as examples of hubris. For good reason, it's an easy way for some tyrant out there to claim they are a "god" and perform some blood magic that seems powerful and enslave people. Which they don't want.

 

It made perfect sense for all my characters, who were openly atheist regardless of their origin. 

[In Exile]

Well... your original statement sounds like he's going to purposely and intentionally destroy other people to achieve his goal of bringing back his own.

As I understand it, achieving his goal of bringing back his people doesn't really require the destruction of everyone else. It's just a side effect of what he has to do to achieve his goal.

Shrug.

 

He is purposely and intentionally destroying them. Recklessness and indifference is intent. And Solas doesn't even deny it! He actively acknowledges that his journey and methods are evil. He views it at as a necessary evil because he views what he did as more monstrous than what he's doing, but not for a moment does he think it isn't a crime. 

[Giantdeathrobot]

I do think Solas is a racist. Not a frothing-at-the-mouth, Third Reich style racist, but one that is uncaring of any race but his own, or even worse, a probably idealized view of what his race is.

[Gwydden]

I do think Solas is a racist. Not a frothing-at-the-mouth, Third Reich style racist, but one that is uncaring of any race but his own, or even worse, a probably idealized view of what his race is.

Hitlers view was that Jews and Slavs had to go to make room for Germans. "Living space" he called it, or some such. I don't find Solas' justification much more defensible than that.

[Steelcan]

Hitlers view was that Jews and Slavs had to go to make room for Germans. "Living space" he called it, or some such. I don't find Solas' justification much more defensible than that.

I don't want to be the guy defending the Third Reich, but it was a tad more complex than that

 

crazy and unjustifiable, but more complex

[Gwydden]

I don't want to be the guy defending the Third Reich, but it was a tad more complex than that

 

crazy and unjustifiable, but more complex

Definitely. But that was one of the excuses waved around, and is eerily similar to Solas' own.

 

EDIT: If a less recent example would prove less polemic, an analogy can be drawn to the Romans conquering, ravaging and subjugating entire "barbarian" civilizations for the glory of Rome. They didn't even try to hide they were selfish assholes (Julius Caesar praised the Gauls' resistance in his little book): who the #$#@ cares that we're killing them by the thousands, destroying their holy sites, outlawing their religion, sacking their cities and temples, and taxing them like there's no tomorrow? Patriotism, @!$#! Rome deserves better than everyone else!

[ModernAcademic]

I'm pretty sure a leader or a politician who began using a speech where they don't view other races or species as people and who justifies their genocide is certainly going to provoke a negative public reaction. At least nowadays, that is.