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Bioware's Favoritism Towards Andrastianism


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#351
bzombo

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Greetings. I would like to talk about what I think is the giant elephant in the room when it comes to Dragon Age games and that is Bioware's blatant favoritism towards Andrastianism. Bioware has repeatedly, time and again, under different Lead Writers (formerly David Gaider, currently Patrick Weekes) stated that they will never flat-out prove or disprove the existence of the Maker. However, in the same vein, Bioware has decided to do the complete opposite with the Dalish Pantheon and the Stone, whom we now know respectively as the Evanuris and the Titans.

 

This is blatant favoritism and bias towards the Maker because what this implies is that the Elves and Dwarves have to confront the reality of their faiths and be shaken by the reality of their faiths but Andrastians are shielded from this. For example, the Andrastian's faith in the Maker and the Herald of Andraste is portrayed sympathetically throughout the game despite having no basis in fact, and even being proven wrong multiple times throughout the games such as as Adamant and in Trespasser. The Andrastian narrative and characters such as Cassandra Pentaghast and Mother Giselle constantly lecture the protagonist, and by extension, the player about how faith is not and should not be based on reason or evidence; as long as choosing to believe in something gives people hope and purpose and that this is a good thing.

 

Meanwhile, the narrative and the characters constantly pour fecal matter all over the Elves for retaining faith in their religion and traditions despite having no evidence at first, and then basically keeps calling them stupid for retaining faith in their beliefs after it has been revealed that their religion and beliefs are not all based in strict fact. Worse still, while the truth is presented as being completely irrelevant to the value of faith for Andrastians, that same game turns around and acts like the truth behind the stories of Elves is what is really important, and the Elves are morons for deriving faith from something not factually true and thus should abandon their faiths and beliefs.

 

This is also done to an extent to the Dwarves who choose to believe in the Stone. The Dwarven Inquisition members that we have such as Lace Harding and Varric Tethras (in essence, the Dwarf representatives of the Inquisition to the player) are Andrastians (and Varric continually mocks the Dwarven faith) and the Dwarves that worship the Stone such as Valta and Renn are either killed off or vanish under mysterious circumstances. If the Dwarven protagonist choose to worship the Stone, he or she is either ignored or has their beliefs washed away by the Andrastian members of the Inquisition after a dialogue with Josephine in Haven since after that dialogue, your Dwarven faith is never brought up again, its all Herald of Andraste and the Maker ? Why can't the Dwarven protagonist see themselves as having the Ancestor's Blessing or the Blessing of the Stone ?

 

My question is why this double standard is present ? Why should one group of the faithful in Thedas be allowed to retain an almost naive and innocent perspective of their faith ("Andraste's Chant is familiar across kingdoms, a source of shared custom.." but the Elven Creators and the Dwarven Stone are not sources of shared customs ?) while the other groups are denied this ? Bioware has stated that it intends to make games where everyone is flawed in some way so why not portray the Maker and Andrastianism in the same critical light they portray the Evanuris ?

 

Frankly, there is plenty of dirt on the Maker and the Andrastian religion that is depicted in the Codex and in the World of Thedas but none of the protagonists we have had so far, be it the Hero of Ferelden or Champion of Kirkwall or the Inquisitor is allowed to bring it up in some way. From a critical perspective, we can see that the Maker is a narcissistic masochistic indifferent god who cannot stand dissent and practices adultery. As Morrigan put it eloquently, the Maker is "an absentee father figure..". He also turned his back from his creations because they did not act they way he wanted them to do so even though it was he who created them and gave them free will. Worse still, the Maker effectively steals the lawfully wed wife of a mortal man to claim as his own and then later, he lets her endure torture as well as immolation at the stake. Lastly, he stated that unless his followers spread his teachings all over the world, he will not return to them or really give much of a damn about them.

 

How is it that we can have Solas talk about Falon'Din's vanity but we cannot have anyone, not even the protagonist bring up the Maker's vanity and adulterous behavior ? The Maker's vanity to want his word to spread to all four corners of the world, which is no different from the Qun's doctrine to spread their teachings throughout the world, has caused tremendous loss of life, and massive conflicts, just like Falon'Din's vanity for adulation created oceans of his follower's blood. Furthermore, we know from multiple Codex entries that the Andrastian Chantry as we know it, is established nearly 200 years later after the death of Andraste by Kordillus Drakon I.  Drakon I used violent coercive force to push forth his version of the Chant, Maker, and Andraste while wiping out many others such as Daughters of Song and driving other such as Blades of Hessarian to obscurity. This means that Andrastianism as we know it today, is not brought about by Andraste's blessings or the Maker's will, it was created through intolerant violent coercive political force. Yet no protagonist is allowed or even given the option to bring this up.

 

I for one would have loved to confront Mother Giselle or Cassandra Pentaghast or Sera about how their Andrastianism is not actually the true vision of Andraste or the Maker since Andraste died 200 years before the Andrastian Chantry was formed, it is in fact the vision of Drakon I which is instituted through violence and coercion. It is also truly odd and hypocritical how the Andrastian Chantry frowns on and even ridicules its followers who have visions. To them, only Andraste's vision is the valid one but ironically, it was Drakon I who wrote the Canticle of Exaltations describing his visions. How is this not heresy but Leliana's visions, for example, are inappropriate or scorn-worthy ? Oh, that's right, because Drakon I was the one who created the Chantry through violent force so his visions are not in question.

 

I would have loved to have a protagonist confront the supposed Seeker of Truth (it should have been Seeker of Faith, not truth), the Revered Mother Giselle about how their religion is not what they say it is and deal with the consequences. I would have loved it if Lavellan could have confronted Ameridan about being friends with a violent warmonger like Drakon I (I can understand forming an alliance but Ameridan explicitly stated that Drakon I was one of his oldest friends) who is alienating multiple interpretations of Andraste's teachings (possibly even Ameridan's own interpretation of the Maker and Creators)  in order to consolidate his power.

 

The only thing we know with absolute certainty is that once upon a time, there existed a woman called Andraste from the Alamarri tribe. At a certain age, after her marriage with Maferath, she experienced something and soon, she called the visions from something as the Maker's wisdom and together with her husband and the tribes, they began a war against the Tevinter Imperium and along the way, the managed to secure an alliance and friendship with the Elves lead by Shartan. Later, due to Maferath's betrayal for unknown reasons (perhaps it is jealousy of the Maker, perhaps it is to prevent further loss of lives that he made a deal with the Imperium or perhaps it was both), Andraste was captured, tortured and burned at the stake by Archon Hessarian. Hessarian, for whatever reason, repented his actions and converted. This is all we genuinely know.

 

Yet somehow, Andraste's words such as "Magic exist to serve man, not to rule over him" has been twisted to mean locking up mages in specific buildings, having legions of gullible men and women (Templars) become addicted to a highly dangerous substance (Lyrium) to watch over these mages and near absolute control over mages, having an agreement with the Dwarves to restrict the trade of this dangerous addictive substance to keep the gullible legion on a leash and then on top that, having an elite team (Seekers of Truth) formed to watch over all this. Yet the protagonists cannot really bring this up.

 

In fact, Jaws of Hakkon DLC should very well allowed us to question the validity that Templars are part of the Chantry because we learn there that a Templar is simply a specific fighting style involving the usage of magical substance that can be addictive,  which is not very different from a Reaver. There is also the reality that Shartan and his teaching were removed and whitewashed away from the Chant of Light even though Andraste and Shartan, Human and Elf, fought side by side against the Imperium, despite the fact that there are many City Elves who are Andrastians.

 

So the reality of the situation is that Andrastianism and the Maker are as flawed as the Evanuris and their teachings as well as the Qun and their teachings and the Dwarves and their teachings. Yet, throughout the series, especially in Inquisition, Bioware has shown blatant favoritism, blatant protectionism, blatant obscurantism and blatant sacrosanct towards the Andrastians and the Andrastianism while not granting the same courtesy to the Elves who believe in the Evanuris, to the Dwarves who worship the Stone, to the Qunari who follow the Qun and even to those who worship the Old Gods. I mean, wanting to have your teachings spread to all four corners of the world in order to make your God give a damn about you or wanting to spread your teachings by force as dictated by your philosopher-founder to achieve some form of utopia is not very different to those who wish to enter the Golden City to gain power. For all we know, the majority of Old God worshipers probably just behave like Varric or Cassandra or Giselle or Leliana - They take the good stuff and ignore the crappy ones or deflect them with claims of faith or have their own individual interpretation.

 

If Bioware wish to portray all peoples, all religions and all gods as flawed in some way, then they should extend this courtesy to Andrastians and Andrastianism instead of sheltering them from the possibility that their faith is wrong or flawed. Heck, I would have loved to confront Andrastians at the end of Trespasser because according to Andrastianism, the Maker created Thedas and everything in it, including the Fade, Spirits, Veil before turning away. Yet in Trespasser, Solas mentions that it is he (and his agents) who were responsible for creating the Veil and we learn that there is an entire line of story about Thedas' origin that does not involve the Maker at all. I would have loved to ask Cassandra or Giselle or Sera if they are going to be worshipping Fen'Harel now since he created the Veil and since Maker created the Veil, therefore logically Fen'Harel should be seen as the Maker and see their response as they try to stammer and deflect that their religious teachings is wrong with claims of faith.

 

I often wonder if Bioware is simply engaging in Andrastian favoritism and protectionism because they are afraid of causing offense towards real world monotheistic religion such as Christianity, Judaism and Islam because criticism of Andrastianism can be seen by some as criticism of Christianity and some would take it further and see it as criticism of monotheism. I mean, we have see how Christians react to entertainment that is critical to their faith when you see their responses towards films such as Da Vinci Code,  Agora, and Passion of the Christ. Are they afraid of possibly losing sales or something ? In the same vein, I do wonder if Bioware has no problem with criticizing polytheism or animism because they know polytheists and animists don't really care or if because majority of Bioware developers are from Christian nations and therefore might have a problem with criticizing monotheism but have no problem with criticizing polytheism or animism ?

 

Anyway, these are my thoughts on the matter. I hope that Bioware address this favoritism in their upcoming games by giving us Human followers who are not Andrastians as well as proper Dwarven followers who believe in the Stone. The only one we have had so far is Morrigan and as for Dwarves, Oghren is not a shining example of Dwarves and Sigrun does not look like she is returning again. Likewise, they should allow the protagonist, Human or non-Human alike, to question the Andrastian faith, to be critical of the Andrastian faith and deal with the consequences such as accusations of heathenous blasphemy or a healthy philosophical debate or what have you.

 

Have a nice day and cheers. I am curious to hear your thoughts and comments on this matter.

It is Bioware's world and they can portray it any way they want. They're obviously vague about the existence of the maker in all three games, but Dragon Age is not an Atheists vs Religion game. It is a very small part of the overall game. When the major players in the current plot are very religious you are going to have a lot of characters speaking about the Andrastian faith as if it were fact. You seem to be coming at this from a meta perspective, which I normally don't mind, but in a situation like this you can't mix your real world perspective with a video game unless you're looking to be upset about something.



#352
IHaveReturned1999

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This is not actually how it's been presented. Qamek is used any time anyone doesn't submit to filling their role in the Qun. Nobody is allowed to leave. Nobody is allowed to pick their own career, choose where they live or what they do to any substantial extent. Nobody is allowed to fall in love. "Disrupting the Qun" enough to be a victim of the qamek (and it's also spoken of that torture techniques, such as sleep deprivation, are used along with the toxin) can be guilty of nothing more than having fallen in love with another Qunari and refusing to give up that relationship. It could be that you simply don't agree with the career that's been selected for you. You don't have to be a criminal to be tortured under the Qun. You just have to have to refuse to do literally anything you're told to do. Any individuality it erased by force. The Qun is a lot more disturbing that you're crediting it.

They select of what a person's good at and a knack for so they put them there to start that profession, and the reason why they're so tight gripped about their ways simply because the Qunari have Dragon blood. Because by nature they are extremely violent so that's why they need the Qun to keep them in check, and @ least the people under the Qun never starve, there is always justice for everyone, no one is superior to another, and no corruption.

#353
Nocte ad Mortem

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They select of what a person's good at and a knack for so they put them there to start that profession, and the reason why they're so tight gripped about their ways simply because the Qunari have Dragon blood. Because by nature they are extremely violent so that's why they need the Qun to keep them in check, and @ least the people under the Qun never starve, there is always justice for everyone, no one is superior to another, and no corruption.

Dragon blood is actually just random speculation that Iron Bull put out. It's possible, maybe even likely, but we don't know for sure. They do not need the Qun to keep them from being overly savage, however. That's purely up to in game racism. That's why the Tal-Vashoth Inquisitor is perfectly capable of making just as rational choices as anyone else. It's why Iron Bull is exactly the same once he leaves the Qun. That's a stereotype, and the game proves to you that it isn't true. The last sentence, I imagine when we go north, we'll find very little of that is actually true. I very much doubt there's "no corruption" and "justice for everyone" in the Qun, but we'll see. 


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#354
Sifr

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They select of what a person's good at and a knack for so they put them there to start that profession, and the reason why they're so tight gripped about their ways simply because the Qunari have Dragon blood. Because by nature they are extremely violent so that's why they need the Qun to keep them in check, and @ least the people under the Qun never starve, there is always justice for everyone, no one is superior to another, and no corruption.

 

Tashoth and the Tal-Vashoth who seek to desert demonstrate that the Qun is not required for them to remain in check.

 

One theory that I've raised before on the forums is that the Qunari may have indoctrinated their people to believe this so that they can control them better. So the real reason for some of the Tal-Vashoth turning violent is because they believe that this is how they must act outside of the Qun.

 

This in turn reinforces the notion that the Tal-Vashoth are violent without the Qun, thus feeding back into the propaganda machine that seeks to teach them that "No Qun = Savagery". The Tal-Vashoth may have been intentionally created by the Qunari precisely for that purpose, a dangerous and extremely savage group of deserters that can serve as both a boogeyman and deterrent to their people if they get ideas of leaving.

 

If the Qunari society can - and indeed does - brainwash their citizens in that manner... then yeah, the Qun would be more than a little disturbing?

 

(Of course, this is merely my own speculation at this point, so take that with a grain of salt, but it would fit with how underhanded the Qunari have been presented)



#355
IHaveReturned1999

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Dragon blood is actually just random speculation that Iron Bull put out. It's possible, maybe even likely, but we don't know for sure. They do not need the Qun to keep them from being overly savage, however. That's purely up to in game racism. That's why the Tal-Vashoth Inquisitor is perfectly capable of making just as rational choices as anyone else. It's why Iron Bull is exactly the same once he leaves the Qun. That's a stereotype, and the game proves to you that it isn't true. The last sentence, I imagine when we go north, we'll find very little of that is actually true. I very much doubt there's "no corruption" and "justice for everyone" in the Qun, but we'll see.

in DA 2 the Tal Vashoth killing random people proves otherwise. And the Chantry is far more corrupt and stupid and wants to stay in power and they want to keep the lies of an imaginary god to have power over people, and they're the ones who kept the racial discrimination against the elves as well.

#356
GoldenGail3

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in DA 2 the Tal Vashoth killing random people proves otherwise. And the Chantry is far more corrupt and stupid and wants to stay in power and they want to keep the lies of an imaginary god to have power over people, and they're the ones who kept the racial discrimination against the elves as well.

Well at least there god isn't trying to kill them (coughs) Solas (coughs) and everyone on the planet for a imaginary world that seized to exist millions of years ago.  



#357
IHaveReturned1999

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Well at least there god isn't trying to kill them (coughs) Solas (coughs) and everyone on the planet for a imaginary world that seized to exist millions of years ago.

And your point is?

#358
GoldenGail3

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And your point is?

That the ancient elves are always going to be worse than anything you compare than them too. 


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#359
Andraste_Reborn

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in DA 2 the Tal Vashoth killing random people proves otherwise.

 

That's like saying that all those Carta thugs killing random people proves that dwarves are naturally violent. For that matter, all three games are full of human bandits. There is no actual evidence that the qunari need the Qun to curb their aggression, or that they're more violent than any of the other sapient species in Thedas. The Vashoth Inquisitor can behave just as calmly and reasonably as any other with no apparent effort, and we've met Tal'Vashoth who don't just run around killing random travelers, like Armaas and Maraas. I suspect the reason many Tal'Vashoth turn bandit is a mixture of sell-fulfilling prophecy and the fact that most of them are from the Antaam and don't have any other skills.


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#360
Nocte ad Mortem

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That's like saying that all those Carta thugs killing random people proves that dwarves are naturally violent. For that matter, all three games are full of human bandits. There is no actual evidence that the qunari need the Qun to curb their aggression, or that they're more violent than any of the other sapient species in Thedas. The Vashoth Inquisitor can behave just as calmly and reasonably as any other with no apparent effort, and we've met Tal'Vashoth who don't just run around killing random travelers, like Armaas and Maraas. I suspect the reason many Tal'Vashoth turn bandit is a mixture of sell-fulfilling prophecy and the fact that most of them are from the Antaam and don't have any other skills.

This makes the point well, but I'd also add that I think the Tal-Vashoth in Kirkwall are similar to the Casteless Dwarves in Orzammar. Some in Orzammar believe the Casteless are often criminals because they're inherently flawed, but actually they're just given extremely few other options to survive. The Tal-Vashoth in Kirkwall, too, have extremely few options. They can't be free with their own people, and human society is not accepting of the Qunari race. Some manage to make it, but the fact that a Qunari Inquisitor starts out with the lowest ranking in court implies they're even less accepted than elves and dwarves. The Kirkwall Tal-Vashoth were people with limited skills and very limited options to start with. Their situation is sympathetic, if you stop to think about it. 


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#361
In Exile

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in DA 2 the Tal Vashoth killing random people proves otherwise. And the Chantry is far more corrupt and stupid and wants to stay in power and they want to keep the lies of an imaginary god to have power over people, and they're the ones who kept the racial discrimination against the elves as well.


As that Qunari in Act 3 explains, the Tal-Vashoth aren't actually free of their role in the Qun. They just slot themselves into the role of the violent Tal-Vashoth Raiders.
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#362
Reznore57

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There's no way to know if Qunari are naturally more violent , you'd need some scientific research and not just the quanri rumor is....

But I think it's far from impossible , if it turns out Qunari are somewhat related to dragons , Reavers who drink dragon blood can become bloothirsty and insane.

Sten did kill a whole family , children included in a fit of insanity and rage , massacre made by Tal Vashoth are reported to be gruesome , and Iron Bull love violence.Now of course all of this could be true of some humans/elves/dwarves as well...and there's the whole nuture vs nature stuff.

So for now the question is up in the air.

What we know is , even if it turns out to be true , qunari don't need the Qun to keep their urges in check.The Bull seems to be capable all by himself to channel his violence towards baddies.



#363
IHaveReturned1999

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There's no way to know if Qunari are naturally more violent , you'd need some scientific research and not just the quanri rumor is....
But I think it's far from impossible , if it turns out Qunari are somewhat related to dragons , Reavers who drink dragon blood can become bloothirsty and insane.
Sten did kill a whole family , children included in a fit of insanity and rage , massacre made by Tal Vashoth are reported to be gruesome , and Iron Bull love violence.Now of course all of this could be true of some humans/elves/dwarves as well...and there's the whole nuture vs nature stuff.
So for now the question is up in the air.
What we know is , even if it turns out to be true , qunari don't need the Qun to keep their urges in check.The Bull seems to be capable all by himself to channel his violence towards baddies.

I got my source entirely from him and his biggest fear is him going crazy, and he said he lost people to the Tal-Vasoth when he was in Scheron. So he wasn't lying about all of it and I know not all of them are bad, but from the Qunari's experience with them proves that they're trouble. The whole dragon blood thing does explains why they have horns and huge.

#364
Gervaise

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The other thing you have to remember is that there are Vashoth, who have never lived under the Qun, and Tal-Vashoth, who have escaped from them.    The Inquisitor is Vashoth, so has never had their mind messed with by the thought police, which could account for why they seem more able to control themselves than Tal-Vashoth, who are probably still pretty messed up.   Tal-Vashoth are still constantly hunted by the Ben-Hassrath as traitors and most people are not prepared to accept them, so they are likely to be pretty tightly strung through never having any sense of security and looking constantly over their shoulders for pursuit.   Add into that they are likely to have a grudge against the Qun and that makes for a pretty unhappy person.  

 

It is a pity we aren't told more about Vashoth as they would be a better way of determining just how unstable qunari are as a race.   I formed the impression that they are no more likely to attack people than the Dalish are.   Some are prone to banditry, but others just try and stay out of trouble.  

 

As Bull says, Seheron is a mess.   I wouldn't judge anyone by what goes on there.   It's a constant war zone even in "peacetime".  



#365
In Exile

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There's no way to know if Qunari are naturally more violent , you'd need some scientific research and not just the quanri rumor is....
But I think it's far from impossible , if it turns out Qunari are somewhat related to dragons , Reavers who drink dragon blood can become bloothirsty and insane.
Sten did kill a whole family , children included in a fit of insanity and rage , massacre made by Tal Vashoth are reported to be gruesome , and Iron Bull love violence.Now of course all of this could be true of some humans/elves/dwarves as well...and there's the whole nuture vs nature stuff.
So for now the question is up in the air.
What we know is , even if it turns out to be true , qunari don't need the Qun to keep their urges in check.The Bull seems to be capable all by himself to channel his violence towards baddies.


Sten didn't actually go crazy. You have to listen to what he says carefully. He panicked. It wasn't rage.

#366
Xilizhra

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Sten didn't actually go crazy. You have to listen to what he says carefully. He panicked. It wasn't rage.

Is that better?



#367
Medhia_Nox

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If their intention was to not criticize monotheistic religions... I think they failed pretty heavily.  While I don't fly off the handle in an atheistic freak crusade about the many flaws the Chantry has... they are clear and endemic to the types of systems that comprise the Andrastean faith. 

 

I mean... the entire Mage/Templar war was a criticism of Andrasteanism and its antiquated policies that became draconian law over mages.

 

Yes, dwarves and elves will now have to deal with the "reality" of their religions.  But 1) The dwarves don't "really" have to worry.  Nothing they believed in was really faith based.  The stone - the paragons.  All of it wasn't "somewhere else".  It was all real to begin with.  and 2)  You're going to find the Evanuris are "something more" - it's already obvious with Flemythal.  The Evanuris will transcend Solas' debacle and remain worshipped. 

 

In fact - these two faiths will only become stronger because they have elements to them that are tangible in ways that Andraste herself no longer is (she is relegated to history). 

Solas' story after he is dealt with - will again be turned into a point of faith.  This will just be another story among hundreds about the Dread Wolf and his schemes.  The elves will continue to use him as a cautionary tale - but might now also use him as a source of pride.  A reason to stand tall against their oppressors.  Personally - I would like them to encounter Elgar'nan and have him be the source of this... but I fear Bioware will relegate the other Evanuris to mere villains.


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#368
Gervaise

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I think you are right about the way the dwarves and Dalish would react and hope the writers don't have them suddenly abandoning their traditions.   I had my Lavallen going home to his clan and asking his Keeper a bit of advice because his head was all over the place with the amount of information he'd received, and she basically said that she doesn't see much has changed.   They know now their gods were definitely real and not made up and have had it confirmed that they can't help them even if they want to.   Mythal was something new but not an insurmountable problem and Fen'Harel is pretty much what he's always been to them; a trickster who can't be trusted.   So they have a choice of believing everything he says or the warning given by the Evanuris.   In any case, even he seemed to imply that the Evanuris didn't start off bad and the majority of their lore seems to be based off that earlier era when they were guides, teachers and protectors.   Their lore states that at the end they were in a war with the Forgotten Ones and as she says, sometimes in war people do terrible things.   However, they still don't know who murdered Mythal, just that someone was responsible and in that particular case Fen'Harel is apparently not guilty.   So what is the point of abandoning their faith and traditions when they have served them well enough up to now?   They are still hanging in there after 700 years of everyone hating them, so she has a point.

 

There is also a line in the song about the elves in Trespasser that seems to hint that the Dalish might be the ones who will come to the aid of Thedas against the wolf, although they may not survive the fight.   Not very cheery if you are a Dalish but the elves always seem to get the short straw.   


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#369
Jedi Master of Orion

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I never really got the sense that the Evanuris used to be benevolent from the reveals, just that they used to be less arrogant and that they didn't develop a god complex right away.


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#370
Nocte ad Mortem

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I think it's up to interpretation, but my Dalish Inquisitors couldn't take the religion seriously as it was meant to be after what they'd learned. I believe it's true that the Evanuris were just normal elves that happened to be exceptionally powerful in their magic use. I think the existence of Corypheus is there to prove to us that everything we know about them is true, that they can alter the fabric of reality as we knew it (Corypheus almost brings down the veil) and that Mythal can move between bodies having started as a mortal (as Corypheus does in his own way). To me, worshipping them is equal to worshipping Corypheus in a general way. I believe most of the negative aspects were true, although even at that they may have not been as bad as Corypheus, DA's most stereotypically evil villain ever. I think the vallaslin were slave marks and I'm disappointed that Solas won't offer to remove them for a friend, since art depicts him doing it for any slave that came to him. As for the nature of the Evanuris, I think they were people with diverging agendas, as people usually have. Some were probably more or less malevolent, but the society they created was a negative example and not one to look up to or idealize. I'm sure some people will continue to worship the Evanuris, but I think they're ultimately misguided. 

 

Of course, all this does play into the theme they heavily focused on in DA:I, which is.. what really is a god? What is really divine? Is it better for people to have harsh truth or well meaning faith? It's obvious what question DA:I wants to pose with Corypheus, the Titans and the Evanuris vs the monotheism of the Andrastrians. Does someone become a god just because they're acknowledged as such? Is godhood just a matter of gaining enough power, or is it something more metaphysical? Are gods blinked into existence as gods, or can mundane figures become gods through their own ambitions, or even just because of chance circumstances? Which religions are undermined or uplifted by the events does have a lot to do with your answers to those questions.  


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#371
Xerrai

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[...]
Solas' story after he is dealt with - will again be turned into a point of faith.  This will just be another story among hundreds about the Dread Wolf and his schemes.  The elves will continue to use him as a cautionary tale - but might now also use him as a source of pride.  A reason to stand tall against their oppressors.  Personally - I would like them to encounter Elgar'nan and have him be the source of this... but I fear Bioware will relegate the other Evanuris to mere villains.

I doubt that would happen. Or at least I hope it wouldn't.

I see them as portraying them just as good/bad as other modern thedosian monarchs. With one or two evanuris having traits that are universally disliked so that it doesn't seem to one-sided.

 

They had good--or at least sympathetic--motivations at the start, but either lost sight of that goal, went through a character change over time, or were simply not good enough with their leadership skills. Like Celene and her willingness to encourage reform for the elves even though she could easily revert to being just as corrupt as any player of the game would. Or the Chantry/Templars which started with good ideas on how to treat people but eventually became oppressive to certain races/people over time.


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#372
Medhia_Nox

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@Xerrai:  I actually want them to all be "good" - in the way beings with greater perspective can be "good" even if their actions aren't always about love. 

 

I want the Dalish to have been right about Solas - that he's a trickster and a "devil" - and is trying to get an army convinced the Evanuris are evil so he can finish what he started three thousand years ago and be the single elven god.  I want this to be why he liked the "idea" of the Maker - I want him to want to become "the Maker".

 

Then -  with the revelation the Evanuris are "good" (again - in a way that is different than mortals are "good) - and we side with them and put Solas down. 

The Evanuris then walk back into the Fade as free entities to guide the elven people to new glories. 

 

That is the story I would tell *shrugs*



#373
Xerrai

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@Xerrai:  I actually want them to all be "good" - in the way beings with greater perspective can be "good" even if their actions aren't always about love. 

 

I want the Dalish to have been right about Solas - that he's a trickster and a "devil" - and is trying to get an army convinced the Evanuris are evil so he can finish what he started three thousand years ago and be the single elven god.  I want this to be why he liked the "idea" of the Maker - I want him to want to become "the Maker".

 

Then -  with the revelation the Evanuris are "good" (again - in a way that is different than mortals are "good) - and we side with them and put Solas down. 

The Evanuris then walk back into the Fade as free entities to guide the elven people to new glories. 

 

That is the story I would tell *shrugs*

Meh. Can't say I relate (you should know me as a Solas fan so of course yours is a story I would dislike), but I suppose its not that different than other idyllic fantasies fans can come up with.

Mine is for Vivviene to be revealed as being more "evil" than she already is so I can feel justified when I rip her reputation and status to shreds.

 

But Bioware generally goes for more nuanced storytelling in most cases.


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#374
SgtSteel91

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I feel like when you support and get Leliana elected as the next Divine, you're sort of making a very critical statement on the Andrastianism. Like, the Chantry and Adrastianism as a whole is so corrupt and its core tenants are so damaging to everyone who isn't a non-Mage Human Noble that it needs to be systematically broken down and rebuilt into something new, which is what Leliana does as Divine Victoria.



#375
In Exile

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Is that better?


No. I actually think what Sten did is much worse - and very much based in the idea that "bas" are things, like someone throwing a tantrum by smashing a vase. As Alistair points out, Sten is remorseful for his loss of control.