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[Iakus]

He's as ignorant as Corypheus. 

In a way, yeah.

 

Funny how both he and Corypheus wanted to claim godlike power so they could turn back the clock to an era they thought was "better", huh? 

[Iakus]

I think Solas defined his relationship to the present in a very effective and clear way.

"Me no like you."

"Me make you go bye bye."

 

https://youtu.be/5JvxH1WThhQ?t=95

 

Heh

[Ieldra]

In a way, yeah.

 

Funny how both he and Corypheus wanted to claim godlike power so they could turn back the clock to an era they thought was "better", huh? 

I've commented on that similarity before, but to get back to the topic: with characters who make plans like this, defenders of the status quo will inevitably be painted as the good guys, which is what the major Andrastian factions have been for a while now, and they look good because as bad as some aspects of the status quo engendered by their dominance are, there's something much worse lurking around the corner.

 

That's very annoying if you dislike Andrastianism. I'd rather have some sweeping change in the aftermath - or as a part - of one of our typical plots that benefits another non-"evil" faction (or even a reformed once-evil one). It is rather ironic. In the ME trilogy I wanted to defend a status quo that looked ever more desirable as details of possible alternatives materialized in the endings, but I couldn't. In DA, I'm put on rails to defend a status quo I've increasingly come to hate. It has become so bad that I occasionally contemplate how it would be to side with the villains just to sweep the Andrastianism-dominated status quo away. Of course, that would inevitably end up with a worse world. However, it would be really nice if I could work for a side I can support with some passion for a change, rather than being forced by strategy and political reason to work for the least-detestable one.

 

I feel like a one-person faction supporting the magic of Tevinter, the science ofthe qunari and an ethical framework dominated by  individual autonomy and obligation often alluded to by Solas, who unfortunately fails to live up to it. 

[Gervaise]

I agree with Ieldra, it is extremely annoying when you are forced to maintain a status quo that you hate, simply because the alternative is worse.   In DAO it was simple, the darkspawn threatened everyone and you'd have to be pretty dumb to side with the archdemon.    However, you had the chance to mess with things a little elsewhere.   The trouble was the real pay off, when you are able to request a boon for services rendered, was meaningless.   None of the ones that really made a difference lasted until the next game; there was no greater freedom for the Circle, no Dalish homeland and the city elves were pretty soon being oppressed all over again. 

 

In DA2 I was with Anders right up until the point that he blew up the Chantry.   That was too close to real life for me to approve, even though deep down inside I wanted to explode the Chantry metaphorically.    I wish they had had the Exalted March DLC but I'm guessing that by the end it would be back to the status quo once more.

 

Then to make matters worse, in DAI you are forced to be a religious icon.  Initially this was okay because they were calling you a heretic.   That was okay by me because I was an alternative to the current Chantry, although I would have preferred to have been totally separate from it.   As Dorian said, the title smacked of the southern Chantry but then the organisation itself had clearly been authorised by the previous Divine with the intention of it being her private army to replace the Templars.  It was always going to be a Chantry institution really.   Josephine was arguing that the Chantry was a unifier, a common link between nations.   That was when I got the feeling that I wasn't going to be able to radically change things.  Then we became mainstream.    Even though the whole Herald of Andraste thing was proven to be false, I was told to maintain the illusion for the sake of morale and then it turns out that the candidates for Divine are going to come from my organisation.  

 

It was hardly surprising that by the end of Trepasser nothing has really changed.    Whichever Divine you choose there is still a Chantry linked Circle and a College of Enchanters.   With Grand Enchanter Vivienne bankrolled by the nobility, it is easy to guess which way that is going even under Leliana.   The College will likely be hardly better off than the Mages Collective were.   After all they were largely tolerated, with the Templars turning a blind eye, provided they behaved themselves.    Leliana says that all races can join the Chantry.   Great, that's really wonderful, except what if they don't want to join the Chantry but follow their own religion?   None of the other Divine's allow this anyway so it will be something that will die a death in the future, with the human nobles (who control the Chantry) ensuring that other races are kept out of any significant positions.   Leliana restores the Canticle of Shartan (again the only one who does).   Too little, too late and in any case the university scholars simply say that much of it is probably not about the actual Shartan and he may not have been a real historical figure anyway, so that negates that gesture.   If you put Briala on the throne of Orlais her days are numbered because she was only being kept there by the power of the Inquisition and that is now neutered or non-existent.  

 

So instead of the  Chantry being crippled beyond recovery by the revelations in DAI or at the very least a schism in the ranks, it is business as usual.   Now I am expected to go north and save Tevinter's a*** because the alternative is worse, the Qun conquers the north.    I live in hope that Dorian will actually be able to bring about real change with his lucerni and Calpernia's vision becomes the reality, that Tevinter becomes "a crafter of wonders, a beacon of hope against the savage Qunari" and that the slaves are freed in order to allow them to reach their true potential as citizens of the Imperium.    I'm taking bets now: even if he does, how long do you suppose it will last?  

 

Then again, may be Solas will come up with something really original (with the help of the PC) that doesn't involve total annihilation for the entire population, flora and fauna of modern Thedas.   If it is anything along the line of synthesis I think I will scream.

[Ieldra]

So instead of the  Chantry being crippled beyond recovery by the revelations in DAI or at the very least a schism in the ranks, it is business as usual.   Now I am expected to go north and save Tevinter's a*** because the alternative is worse, the Qun conquers the north.    I live in hope that Dorian will actually be able to bring about real change with his lucerni and Calpernia's vision becomes the reality, that Tevinter becomes "a crafter of wonders, a beacon of hope against the savage Qunari" and that the slaves are freed in order to allow them to reach their true potential as citizens of the Imperium.    I'm taking bets now: even if he does, how long do you suppose it will last?

You know, it took about 15 seconds into DAO's intro to tell me I would dislike the dominant religion of the setting a great deal -  the first sentence ever spoken in this game sequence, one that came across to me as deeply reactionary in it message, reminding people of their station and denigrating human achievement and visions for a better future. That "prediction" has proven true, and my dislike deepened as I was forced to take up a religious role in DAI.   
 
At the same time, as I explored the lore of Thedas, I came tp deeply resent that a culture as interesting as Tevinter was relegated to the role of "Evil Empire". So, I harbor the same hope as you. No  matter the controversial history of its proponent, Calpernia's vision for Tevinter is one that resonates with me more than any other expressed vision for the future. That would be a cause I could embrace with passion, even knowing that the outcome would inevitably have its own downsides.

But then, those who look with wonder at the possibilities the future might bring appear to be increasingly in the minority, in RL as well as in video games. I'd rather see Bioware write against that dominant cultural trend.
 

Then again, may be Solas will come up with something really original (with the help of the PC) that doesn't involve total annihilation for the entire population, flora and fauna of modern Thedas.   If it is anything along the line of synthesis I think I will scream.

Yeah, me too. I supported Synthesis in the ME trilogy, but it left me feeling queasy because individuals couldn't opt out of it. A similar outcome on Thedas would feel like the Qun had won. I have sympathy for the agenda to bring back the ancient elves' magical aspects, but the price is not acceptable. Do it in a pocket dimension or something like that, and leave it to individuals to decide whether they want to live there or in Thedas-with-the-Veil.

[The Elder King]

I think the reason behind Solas' plan threatening the whole world of DA might be because they feel that without this con many would support easily his plan. Though without knowing what their plans are about that particular plot. From what we know we might not even have the option to change the fate of that decision, in one way or another, and being forced to see Solas' plan stopped or achieved.
I don't see it exactly as a new change though. While his plans, if achieved, will change the status quo of thedas, and for the players and inhabitants of thedas will be a new situation, it's basically returning to the previous status quo.
On Tevinter and the Chantry's dogma at the start of DAO, I fan see why it could bother some people (like Ieldra said), but while the message might be against human achievement and a better future...what the magisters planned wasn't exactly that (putting aside the horrific cost in lives to achieve it, and the negative outcome).

[Gervaise]

You know, the elves created a pocket dimension, so why doesn't he just open it up on the Fade side, let the magic flow in and then all his buddies can go live with him there.   Meanwhile people can still come and go between there and the real world via the eluvians.    I suppose a solution like that would be just too simple.

[Sah291]

Then again, may be Solas will come up with something really original (with the help of the PC) that doesn't involve total annihilation for the entire population, flora and fauna of modern Thedas. If it is anything along the line of synthesis I think I will scream.

Haha, you're right.... although it's kind of too bad, because something like synthesis would probably actually work in the Dragon Age setting. DA has the metaphysical and magical plot elements to explain and support it...whereas ME didn't really, and it came off as space magic out of nowhere. But you could already imagine a Thedas co-existing with spirits and fade, because it's already been part of the world and narrative. We have already gone to the fade and have had spirit characters walking around, merging with people, and becoming humans, etc.

Not saying I necessarily want that to happen. But it'd be believable if they did. And the changes might not all necessarily be as dramatic or different as we expect.

[Ieldra]

On Tevinter and the Chantry's dogma at the start of DAO, I fan see why it could bother some people (like Ieldra said), but while the message might be against human achievement and a better future...what the magisters planned wasn't exactly that (putting aside the horrific cost in lives to achieve it, and the negative outcome).

Their motivation wasn't exactly enlightening, sure, but the achievement of having crossed a boundary people thought to be insurmountable remains. More to the point, though, this story - the founding myth of Andrastianism - makes of those events a generalized message about the supposed sin in stepping beyond the boundaries prescribed for you by your gods. That's why I call it a reactionary message, and why I find the abovementioned favoritism so annoying. The magisters were reckless and evil, and plainly didn't care what the world would have to pay for their ambition, but that doesn't make any such ambition evil.

[Ieldra]

Haha, you're right.... although it's kind of too bad, because something like synthesis would probably actually work in the Dragon Age setting. DA has the metaphysical and magical plot elements to explain and support it...whereas ME didn't really, and it came off as space magic out of nowhere. But you could already imagine a Thedas co-existing with spirits and fade, because it's already been part of the world and narrative. We have already gone to the fade and have had spirit characters walking around, merging with people, and becoming humans, etc.

Not saying I necessarily want that to happen. But it'd be believable if they did. And the changes might not all necessarily be as dramatic or different as we expect.

If the Veil was removed, such things would be more common, and that wouldn't be an all that drastic change. However, it could make everyone mageborn, with all the perks and risks associated with that. The problem with such a scenario is the same as in ME3: the story so far suggests this is not a desirable outcome, and having it painted as desirable in the last minute by a controversial figure would be about as well received as it was in ME3.

[In Exile]

If the Veil was removed, such things would be more common, and that wouldn't be an all that drastic change. However, it could make everyone mageborn, with all the perks and risks associated with that. The problem with such a scenario is the same as in ME3: the story so far suggests this is not a desirable outcome, and having it painted as desirable in the last minute by a controversial figure would be about as well received as it was in ME3.

 

The conflict between mundanes and mages has been simmering for three games, including a civil war. That's a little different. And the pre-Veil history we get tells us the world isn't utopian at all because of it. This type of "synthesis" actually makes more sense for DA, even if the whole point will be stopping the apocalypse removing the Veil would cause due to good ol' Solas. 

[Sah291]

If the Veil was removed, such things would be more common, and that wouldn't be an all that drastic change. However, it could make everyone mageborn, with all the perks and risks associated with that. The problem with such a scenario is the same as in ME3: the story so far suggests this is not a desirable outcome, and having it painted as desirable in the last minute by a controversial figure would be about as well received as it was in ME3.

It could be possible everyone gains some level of magical ability, but that's not so different from what we have already with magical buffs, enchantments, and enchantments to abilities and weapons. Being a mage would probably still involve training to become skilled at it, and a different framework for working magic. It would maybe just be as accepted as something many people are naturally born with, and a learned skill like any other that can be developed...rather than some kind of "other" or fluke that has to be separated from the rest of society. The Eluvians could become a permanent part of Thedas, and we'd have fast travel and access to new regions. This would be a big deal and change Thedas. Like the invention of the airplane in real life. But it would open the world up more.

So yeah, it would require and force a shift in political attitudes and institutions on the issue of magic. That's the hard part, I think. But the actual mechanics of people gaining magical talent and interacting with the fade and spirits isn't so much, and the framework has already been built, if they decided to go in that direction.

I'm not so sure they are likely to do it, for reasons you mention, it might not be well received or desirable. But it could be done and would make sense in the context of the world that has been built, IMO.

[Ieldra]

The conflict between mundanes and mages has been simmering for three games, including a civil war. That's a little different. And the pre-Veil history we get tells us the world isn't utopian at all because of it. This type of "synthesis" actually makes more sense for DA, even if the whole point will be stopping the apocalypse removing the Veil would cause due to good ol' Solas.

Not what I meant. The conflict is there, but the story suggests that it would be highly risky for a whole population of unprepared human to suddenly become mageborn, because of the threat posed by malevolent spirits, who most likely, wouldn't suddenly become less malevolent simply because the Veil is weakened or removed.

Having said that, the scenario is open for the hypothesis that demons aren't all that common after all, and the Avvar seem to get along quite well with the spirit world as a rule.

[Gervaise]

The thing is simply giving people magical ability is not going to make for a fairer world if you don't recognise the current set up of noble elite reinforced by religious dogma is wrong.   In Orlais the nobles rule by Divine Right; in Tevinter they rule by Divine right; in the Qun the state is god; in old Arlathan they ruled because they had by-passed the divinity altogether and made themselves gods.  In each case anyone who doesn't agree with their rule is victimised and demonised for the "greater good".    So if Solas found a way to make everyone survive his magical boost to the world without setting up a different system of governance, nothing will have changed. 

 

So far as pushing the bounds of knowledge and achievement are concerned, there is nothing wrong with that provided other people do not suffer as a result and it isn't used simply to increase your personal power at the expense of everyone else.   The sad part is if you read the words of Andraste you realise what she was suggesting was a fairer society but they were twisted to suit someone else's agenda in order to reinforce their power, whether mage or non-mage.  

[Sah291]

The thing is simply giving people magical ability is not going to make for a fairer world if you don't recognise the current set up of noble elite reinforced by religious dogma is wrong.   In Orlais the nobles rule by Divine Right; in Tevinter they rule by Divine right; in the Qun the state is god; in old Arlathan they ruled because they had by-passed the divinity altogether and made themselves gods.  In each case anyone who doesn't agree with their rule is victimised and demonised for the "greater good".  

Well you are right of course, it wouldn't result in a utopia, there would still be conflict, and all these issues existed pre Veil too. I think that goes to show, these are really different issues, and not an inherent evil of magic, or lack thereof.

I just meant to point out it's possible in the world they have set up to actually go through with the Veil coming down, or a synthesis type scenario that wouldn't destroy believability or break the narrative. Plus there would still be a lot of conflict and new problems and areas of Thedas to explore for the series to continue on.

[In Exile]

Not what I meant. The conflict is there, but the story suggests that it would be highly risky for a whole population of unprepared human to suddenly become mageborn, because of the threat posed by malevolent spirits, who most likely, wouldn't suddenly become less malevolent simply because the Veil is weakened or removed.

Having said that, the scenario is open for the hypothesis that demons aren't all that common after all, and the Avvar seem to get along quite well with the spirit world as a rule.

Solas suggests the very nature of the relationship with spirits that we see in modern Thedas is a result of the fact that the Veil exists. Spirts would physically be able to be in Thedas in a way that makes the meat puppet approach so far kind of besides the point. Plus, as much as DAO made it a point the abomination thing was always a side shown to other issues with mages - like the stigma attached to bloom magic.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I found Solas kind of a hard character to get a sense of when it comes to pridefulness and humility because he appears to display the behavior of both to a certain extent. He rejects the claims of his own godhood and even the idea that he was a heroic liberator, but I think he takes a lot of pride in being a teacher. Probably too much, actually. Because I noticed a couple times he almost seems to get annoyed when people manage to reach the same conclusion as him without his guidance.

 

Most notably Morrigan's belief that the Creators were just mortal god-kings is not only essentially correct, but it's also completely in line with what Solas was outwardly professing to believe about them. Yet he gets weirdly defensive when Morrigan talks about Mythal.

 

I want to say there was another example of this, but unfortunately I'm drawing a blank right now.

 

Although his behavior throughout the Temple of Mythal was all kinds of confusing when it comes to Well of Sorrows. He agrees we need to take it's power, but he doesn't want Morrigan to drink from it, he doesn't want the Inquisitor to drink from it and he doesn't want to drink from it, so what did he want us to do?!

[Sah291]

Most notably Morrigan's belief that the Creators were just mortal god-kings is not only essentially correct, but it's also completely in line with what Solas was outwardly professing to believe about them. Yet he gets weirdly defensive when Morrigan talks about Mythal.

Yeah I noticed that too. He tells Morrigan she's wrong about everything pretty much, but acts conflicted about Mythal. I can only guess that at some point he respected her and thought she was different.

But the same doesn't go for the rest of the Evanuris. Maybe Mythal and Elgar'nan really were different from the younger generation of god kings/rulers that came later? We know Mythal was killed/overthrown somehow, and we don't yet really know what part Elgar'nan had in all of it.

But I think Morrigan believed the Evanuris were long dead and gone, like Mythal, while Solas knew they really were immortal and were still imprisoned. So that could have been what he meant.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think what we learn from Trespasser does seem to suggest the Dalish were right about him being their ruler. I got the sense that he was mostly their ringleader, from the memories in the Fade library, and as such he probably was responsible for Mythal's murder.

[Iakus]

I've commented on that similarity before, but to get back to the topic: with characters who make plans like this, defenders of the status quo will inevitably be painted as the good guys, which is what the major Andrastian factions have been for a while now, and they look good because as bad as some aspects of the status quo engendered by their dominance are, there's something much worse lurking around the corner.

 

That's very annoying if you dislike Andrastianism. I'd rather have some sweeping change in the aftermath - or as a part - of one of our typical plots that benefits another non-"evil" faction (or even a reformed once-evil one). It is rather ironic. In the ME trilogy I wanted to defend a status quo that looked ever more desirable as details of possible alternatives materialized in the endings, but I couldn't. In DA, I'm put on rails to defend a status quo I've increasingly come to hate. It has become so bad that I occasionally contemplate how it would be to side with the villains just to sweep the Andrastianism-dominated status quo away. Of course, that would inevitably end up with a worse world. However, it would be really nice if I could work for a side I can support with some passion for a change, rather than being forced by strategy and political reason to work for the least-detestable one.

 

I feel like a one-person faction supporting the magic of Tevinter, the science ofthe qunari and an ethical framework dominated by  individual autonomy and obligation often alluded to by Solas, who unfortunately fails to live up to it. 

 I wouldn't go so far as to say defenders of the status quo are shown as "the good guys".  At least not all the time.  I mean, the status quo is what brought about the split between mages and Templars, and the Orlesian civil war.

 

Corypheus and Solas, in fact, represent going backwards to "the bad old days" where things were arguably worse.  

 

Change is inevitable.  Quickly or slowly.  In small ways or in large.  The question is:  what form do you want the change to be?

 

And I'd support Tevinter more if Hessarian's policies had survived his death.

[Ieldra]

I wouldn't go so far as to say defenders of the status quo are shown as "the good guys".  At least not all the time.  I mean, the status quo is what brought about the split between mages and Templars, and the Orlesian civil war.
 
Corypheus and Solas, in fact, represent going backwards to "the bad old days" where things were arguably worse.

Exactly my point. We're more or less forced to defend the status quo because the villains give us something worse to worry about. Also, yes, I maintain that the defenders of the status quo are always painted as the good guys - in the end, in spite of all the infighting we all end up on the same side out of necessity. DAI goes even further and lets those people sideline your character in order to counter any threat *you* might have posed to the status quo.
 

Change is inevitable.  Quickly or slowly.  In small ways or in large.  The question is:  what form do you want the change to be?

I want to fight for a philosophy I can support with conviction, rather than for one I must support out of necessity, and I want that philosophy to become ascendant. So far, the closest I can plausibly imagine to represent that is a reformed Tevinter. In any case, Southern Thedas' Andrastianism most emphatically isn't it.
 

And I'd support Tevinter more if Hessarian's policies had survived his death.

That's why I said "reformed" - or at least on track to a serious reform that couldn't be easily reversed.

[Pasquale1234]

The thing is simply giving people magical ability is not going to make for a fairer world if you don't recognise the current set up of noble elite reinforced by religious dogma is wrong.

Well government and religion is part of it, but I think there may be other factors at play having to do with cooperation versus rebelliousness, individualism versus the common good, ego-centered selfishness versus altruistic benevolence. I don't think any of the cultures we've seen on Thedas have evolved to a point where they could handle all citizens having magical power.

When I consider the ramifications of all Theodosians suddenly gaining magical power, I see... Tuchanka.

[Sah291]

Exactly my point. We're more or less forced to defend the status quo because the villains give us something worse to worry about. Also, yes, I maintain that the defenders of the status quo are always painted as the good guys - in the end, in spite of all the infighting we all end up on the same side out of necessity.

It's a pattern that goes kind of like this: Status quo has grown corrupt and badly in need of reform, etc. Villians, opposition and/or minority group slowly gains sympathy and appears to have a point. But then opposition suddenly does something completely evil or outrageous (like blow up a Chantry or Conclave), that negates any moral high ground and sympathy they might have built up and shifts it back to Status quo? Status quo reforms, a little bit, maybe...sometimes they double down on what they were already doing before... and if the opposition had any sympathetic ideals or ideas, whatever they were originally before going insane, they are all but forgotten about. Until next time there is a dust up over the same problem.

That's not Bioware, that's just real life.

[In Exile]

Exactly my point. We're more or less forced to defend the status quo because the villains give us something worse to worry about. Also, yes, I maintain that the defenders of the status quo are always painted as the good guys - in the end, in spite of all the infighting we all end up on the same side out of necessity. DAI goes even further and lets those people sideline your character in order to counter any threat *you* might have posed to the status quo.
 
I want to fight for a philosophy I can support with conviction, rather than for one I must support out of necessity, and I want that philosophy to become ascendant. So far, the closest I can plausibly imagine to represent that is a reformed Tevinter. In any case, Southern Thedas' Andrastianism most emphatically isn't it.
 
That's why I said "reformed" - or at least on track to a serious reform that couldn't be easily reversed.

 

This is a fantasy problem generally, going back to the most common interpretation of LOTR. Fantasy is all about holding on to the status quo with desperation, perhaps with minor changes or reforms based on an implicit recognition of the divine right of kings, but generally speaking, the villains are (evil-y) trying to upset the status quo and we (in the sense of protagonists) are there to stop it. As much as I think JRPGs are wonky, and as much as I haven't played one since I was just about a teen, their plots often 1) deal a lot more with revealing the nature of the evil you're fighting (RPGs almost pride themselves on not even raising these questions about their lore) and 2) deal with upsetting rather than upholding the status quo. 

 

As an aside, your point about everyone being mages got me thinking: if Solas wins out, and assuming there's no mass genocide, even mages would "become" mages. Assuming human mages can even exist in the way Solas understands magic. Remember, what mages were and what they are is really different - to Solas the mundanes and mages both are the equivalent of tranquil. So it's not like everyone would become mages as we have them now.

[vertigomez]

While we don't really know the consequences of a world with no Veil, all this speculation about everybody suddenly becoming mages bothers me simply because... they didn't ask for it? It feels like a violation to me, like putting something in the water supply and not giving anyone a chance to opt out. Like, I'm trying to imagine how traumatizing it would be for people who are terrified of magic. I guess you could say, "they'd learn not to be" but it feels like they shouldn't be forced to. I think about all the people who are completely unqualified to resist demonic temptation because they're a farmer and they've not been trained for it, or the people who will go power-mad because suddenly they can kill people with their brain.

I'm trying to look at it from a pre-Veil world perspective, where everybody(?) had magic and it wasn't second guessed, and how those survivors felt to suddenly not have magic anymore. It would have been equally frightening. But I'm not sure two wrongs make a right, in this case? And you'd still have people vying for power. Does Solas mention any precautions for making sure it doesn't just turn into another Elvhenan/Tevinter with the more powerful mages squishing the less capable ones?

Sorry if the above is disjointed. I'm just trying to puzzle it out.