657 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

While we don't really know the consequences of a world with no Veil, all this speculation about everybody suddenly becoming mages bothers me simply because... they didn't ask for it? It feels like a violation to me, like putting something in the water supply and not giving anyone a chance to opt out. Like, I'm trying to imagine how traumatizing it would be for people who are terrified of magic. I guess you could say, "they'd learn not to be" but it feels like they shouldn't be forced to. I think about all the people who are completely unqualified to resist demonic temptation because they're a farmer and they've not been trained for it, or the people who will go power-mad because suddenly they can kill people with their brain.

I'm trying to look at it from a pre-Veil world perspective, where everybody(?) had magic and it wasn't second guessed, and how those survivors felt to suddenly not have magic anymore. It would have been equally frightening. But I'm not sure two wrongs make a right, in this case? And you'd still have people vying for power. Does Solas mention any precautions for making sure it doesn't just turn into another Elvhenan/Tevinter with the more powerful mages squishing the less capable ones?

Sorry if the above is disjointed. I'm just trying to puzzle it out.

 

I understand where you're coming from, and it's absolutely an erasure of autonomy. But I would frame it differently: this is the magnitude of the crime that Solas committed in the first place. Think about how he views the world, and what he's done, because of the far-reaching consequences of his actions. I don't think Solas cares about the cultural point - he was trying to overthrow the entirety of his culture anyway. Part of what drives him is that he views himself as having committed an unforgivable crime and destroyed the world in the process. 

 

In the same way the Inquisitor wants to fix the world, Solas does too. The problem is that his world doesn't exist anymore, and hasn't, for a long time. Hell, even nutcase Corypheus wanted to "fix" the world. 

[Nocturnalchemy]

Does Solas mention any precautions for making sure it doesn't just turn into another Elvhenan/Tevinter with the more powerful mages squishing the less capable ones?

 

Solas explicitly says that he doesn't intend to fill you in on all of his plans, but he states that he has them, nonetheless. My guess, based on some of his party banter with Cassandra, is that he's going to use the idea of the Maker as the template for the "one true god" that he intends to become (since he implies that he admires the concept of the Maker - a god with no need to proclaim its divinity and supremacy to the world). In essence, he becomes a remote figure of absolute power, forever able to keep the world "right," without the lesser beings ever being aware of the movements of his invisible hand. Thus, he can eternally keep the world the way it "should be," without having to directly interfere in the lives of others in any way that they could possibly directly observe. He instead becomes the wind and the rain, and the motions of the stars; just fundamental forces in the universe that subtly keep everyone on the straight and narrow, as he perceives it.

[Sah291]

I'm trying to look at it from a pre-Veil world perspective, where everybody(?) had magic and it wasn't second guessed, and how those survivors felt to suddenly not have magic anymore. It would have been equally frightening. But I'm not sure two wrongs make a right, in this case? And you'd still have people vying for power. Does Solas mention any precautions for making sure it doesn't just turn into another Elvhenan/Tevinter with the more powerful mages squishing the less capable ones?
Sorry if the above is disjointed. I'm just trying to puzzle it out.

Well, Solas describes the fade in the pre Veil world as being everywhere, kind of like the air. But the thing is, with something that's literally everywhere like air, we don't tend to think about it much, it's just part of the background and the world people take for granted. Until suddenly we don't have it. It's very likely elves pre Veil would have had an equally hard time imagining a world without magic, I think. Maybe this was the source of their conflict with the Dwarves and Titans, who knows.

But yeah, I think Solas fully expects the transition to cause extreme chaos, just like it did the first time when he put the Veil up.

As far as free will and being like adding medicine or something to the water. That's a tough one, because it sounds like establishing free will was the purpose of the Veil in the first place. But in doing so, Solas violated the free will of everyone who wanted to keep the status quo and the Evanuris system.

This is an issue inherent to solving problems collectively, because you are always violating the free will of someone, unless there is unanimous agreement and consent among everyone. Is it better to do things for the greater good, and if so, who gets to decide what the greater good is? Or is it better to let people decide for themselves individually? But what if people use their free will to voluntarily decide to enslave themselves, what then? Should people intervene? I don't think any of these are easily answered questions. I think Solas is just at a point where he said screw it, I'm interfering.

[Sah291]

My guess, based on some of his party banter with Cassandra, is that he's going to use the idea of the Maker as the template for the "one true god" that he intends to become (since he implies that he admires the concept of the Maker - a god with no need to proclaim its divinity and supremacy to the world). In essence, he becomes a remote figure of absolute power, forever able to keep the world "right," without the lesser beings ever being aware of the movements of his invisible hand. Thus, he can eternally keep the world the way it "should be," without having to directly interfere in the lives of others in any way that they could possibly directly observe. He instead becomes the wind and the rain, and the motions of the stars; just fundamental forces in the universe that subtly keep everyone on the straight and narrow, as he perceives it.

LOL... that fits Solas almost too well.

My other theory was that he might have originally intended to leave Mythal as the sole goddess of the new world... especially if they had been working together. But that plan would be out now, obviously, but he does have her power. So he could make himself god king.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

LOL... that fits Solas almost too well.

My other theory was that he might have originally intended to leave Mythal as the sole goddess of the new world... especially if they had been working together. But that plan would be out now, obviously, but he does have her power. So he could make himself god king.

Not necessarily. Flemeth has split her body into fragments before, and is seen sending something into the Eluvian before her encounter with Solas, so she could still be around. Or, Solas having Flemeth's power/essence may only be a temporary thing, and when he is finished he will release and restore her.

[In Exile]

Not necessarily. Flemeth has split her body into fragments before, and is seen sending something into the Eluvian before her encounter with Solas, so she could still be around. Or, Solas having Flemeth's power/essence may only be a temporary thing, and when he is finished he will release and restore her.

 

Flemeth, I think, is dead. While Bioware could bring her back, I think that was more of a "one-off" way to cover up their "how did Flemeth survive a sword to the throat?" Besides, I think the idea is that Mythal's mantle is going to be thrust on Morrigan whether she likes it or not, and Flemeth being around undercuts that passing of the torch. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Flemeth, I think, is dead. While Bioware could bring her back, I think that was more of a "one-off" way to cover up their "how did Flemeth survive a sword to the throat?" Besides, I think the idea is that Mythal's mantle is going to be thrust on Morrigan whether she likes it or not, and Flemeth being around undercuts that passing of the torch. 

That's a shame if so. I like Flemeth a lot more than Morrigan and would rather she still be around than Morrigan taking that role. 

[In Exile]

That's a shame if so. I like Flemeth a lot more than Morrigan and would rather she still be around than Morrigan taking that role. 

 

I'm indifferent to Morrigan as successor Mythal, but I like her character. Her VA, though? Can't have DA without Captain Janeway. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I'm indifferent to Morrigan as successor Mythal, but I like her character. Her VA, though? Can't have DA without Captain Janeway. 

Her VA, while talented, doesn't really do anything for me and I wouldn't see DA any lesser without her. 

[Seraphim24]

Well, Solas describes the fade in the pre Veil world as being everywhere, kind of like the air. But the thing is, with something that's literally everywhere like air, we don't tend to think about it much, it's just part of the background and the world people take for granted. Until suddenly we don't have it. It's very likely elves pre Veil would have had an equally hard time imagining a world without magic, I think. Maybe this was the source of their conflict with the Dwarves and Titans, who knows.

But yeah, I think Solas fully expects the transition to cause extreme chaos, just like it did the first time when he put the Veil up.

As far as free will and being like adding medicine or something to the water. That's a tough one, because it sounds like establishing free will was the purpose of the Veil in the first place. But in doing so, Solas violated the free will of everyone who wanted to keep the status quo and the Evanuris system.

This is an issue inherent to solving problems collectively, because you are always violating the free will of someone, unless there is unanimous agreement and consent among everyone. Is it better to do things for the greater good, and if so, who gets to decide what the greater good is? Or is it better to let people decide for themselves individually? But what if people use their free will to voluntarily decide to enslave themselves, what then? Should people intervene? I don't think any of these are easily answered questions. I think Solas is just at a point where he said screw it, I'm interfering.

 

I think if people voluntarily enslave themselves, that's just fine, the problem is always imposing that on someone. 

 

But yeah, "The egghead finally acts!" is kind of an interesting interpretation of Solas, ehehe..

[Seraphim24]

In terms of the Maker concept and Solas's idea that "a Maker would just be accepted" is false because lets just say someone is all-loving and all-knowing and all the things people want.... well 1) That is what like everyone "pretends" to be, and people aren't capable of distinguishing between the real thing and fakes) 2) There is no requirement that the Maker be revealed or something to the entire world, in the modern world sans communication or knowledge or whatever and other connection that person might just be obscured for one reason or another. Maybe their family isn't anything special.,,, they are more like a Hawke than a Cousland.

 

In Thedas, it's possible the Maker even existed in human form, at one point or another, maybe hadn't discovered the power or something, and maybe got caught in a massive Darkspawn ambush without a weapon or something,

 

So Solas is fatally flawed in that way, and kind of just adding to the problems because he is incapable of understanding that concept.

 

Kind of like in the real world, I see immensely powerful, extraordinarily capable individuals just all over, in the most random places, but again ordinary people can't interpret them as such (in fact often struggle to interact with them properly) so basically Solas's entire vision is flawed.

[Seraphim24]

Although maybe that's why Solas sees the kind of chaos as necessary.... before Thedas can even acknowledge a powerful Maker figure, the world has to be prepared... in it's current state they would be obscured, but as all the "fake" and "lies" and "deceivers" and "villains" are purged it might be possible at some point.

[Gervaise]

Solas is a paradox.   He believes in the right of all free thinking people to exist, yet he would deny that right in order to restore the world he wants.   He believes the freedom of the individual to choose the life they want, yet denies it if they make the "wrong" choice.   He denies the false gods who impose their will on others and claims he is not a god, yet he acted in a god like way in the past to change reality and is planning on doing the same again in the future simply because the world is not how he thinks it should be.   He objects to the concepts of good and evil, of chains of command, of keeping things simple, yet he pronounced judgement over a group of individuals, kills followers who don't follow orders and has a simplistic view when it comes to ensuring the survival of his own people.  

 

He claims he didn't like the system of governance that was established under the Evanuris but it would seem that for the majority, that system of governance was desirable and worked.    Mythal was the ultimate adjudicator and mediator for the ancient elves.   Surely that was using the concept of good and evil, as seen through her eyes, and chains of command that recognised her as such?    He seemed happy enough to abide by that system until she was killed.   So in a way he was objecting to the break down of law and order to be replaced by the chaos that followed her death.    

 

We still don't have enough information about the events that led to him raising the Veil.   All we have is an event, the murder of Mythal, and him ascribing collective guilt to the Evanuris.   I want to know the circumstances leading up to them taking this action.   I want to know why the Evanuris turned against her?    I want to know who exactly was involved?   Solas acted as prosecution, judge and jury for the Evanuris.     The presence of shrines honouring the other Creators within the Temple of Mythal, the lack of other ancient elves, beyond his own followers, actually objecting to the Evanuris,  plus the myths and legends of the Dalish that portray them as guides and teachers of the people, all speak in their defence.     Abelas was bound to the will of Mythal but he did it by his own choice, as does anyone who drinks from the Well.   Solas regards this as slavery but Abelas did not view it that way.    Could that be the difference between Solas, and his followers, and the rest of the People?   Outside of the societies, like the Rivaini, the Dalish and the Avaar, you are hard pressed in Thedas to find a system of governance that does not involve the strong abusing their power and limiting the freedoms of those weaker than themselves, whether it be individual leaders like the Magisters or the State in the form of the Qun.   I abhor the Orlesian Game and how often the lower orders suffer as a result; the nobility act as though they are gods when they order the death of servants or fellow nobles to advance their own position, yet Solas actually enjoyed observing their antics and found it a turn on.    It seems to me he was quite happy with the system in old Arlathan until the death of Mythal.

 

The stories in the Temple of Mythal, such as the madness of Andruil, and Solas' own recounting of the vanity of Falon'Din, suggest to me that something went wrong at the end that led to the breakdown of authority and the death of Mythal.     Was it simply a case of absolute power corrupting absolutely or was there some other external factor involved?   I need more answers and am unwilling to make future decisions on the basis of Solas' word alone.    To my mind he was always playing a part and, not withstanding his decision to save me at the end, he betrayed my friendship and my trust, thus living up to the Dalish view of him as a trickster god, not a rebel hero.

[Reznore57]

Problem with Solas is he's somewhat "nice" enough...he doesn't want to see people suffer and all that (although of course he would make people suffer if he thinks it's worth it..very much a "the end justify the means " kind of guy.) and he dreams of a completly unrealistic world where people would be at their peak and would regulate themselves .

He gives a very stupid "well you kill the bad guys " to the question of mage troubles...You don't say , Solas.

If people dies because of magic well *shrug* of course some careless children would die , what can you do...

 

This is not the idea behind a working society , as a society you don't shrug when people die because of a known danger , you try to find solutions.

When there's people causing big troubles , it's not as simple as well...you kill them.

He has the same laissez-faire attitude towards blood magic , according to him blood magic is misused because it is illegal and not ...perhaps it was made illegal because it was misused and made countless victims when it was legal.

 

He's 100% pro freedom at the cost of security.

And the problem is you can't  take him seriously.He can't have a average Joe view of the issue because he is one of the most powerful mage standing in Thedas.

[Melbella]

The stories in the Temple of Mythal, such as the madness of Andruil, and Solas' own recounting of the vanity of Falon'Din, suggest to me that something went wrong at the end that led to the breakdown of authority and the death of Mythal.     Was it simply a case of absolute power corrupting absolutely or was there some other external factor involved?   I need more answers and am unwilling to make future decisions on the basis of Solas' word alone.    To my mind he was always playing a part and, not withstanding his decision to save me at the end, he betrayed my friendship and my trust, thus living up to the Dalish view of him as a trickster god, not a rebel hero.

Perhaps the Blight they created/found/unleashed tainted them and drove them mad like it did Andruil in the tale. Perhaps it happened over time so no one really noticed until it was too late.

[In Exile]

Solas views the corrupting influence of power as an inescapable feature of having it for too long. The Evanuris were immortals worshiped as gods for who knows how many ages. They fought at least one (potentially apocalyptic) war and - seeing as how the Dalish got the outline right - may well have been in the midst of another one with their counterparts in the forgotten ones.

[IHaveReturned1999]

The whole thing about the Chantry is simply about power.

[ShadowLordXII]

OP's spot on.

 

The favoritism becomes even more blatant with how the writers retcon, whitewash, backtrack and blackwash to try and hold up the Chantry on a platter higher than other faiths.

 

1) In-game, Alistair speculates that Templar abilities do not require lyrium and that lyrium is just a means of control by the Chantry. Speculation supported by how Alistair and the Warden can use templar powers without lyrium and leaves us thinking about what templar abilities truly are and whether they qualify as magic.

 

But Gaider retconned Alistair and turned him into a liar by strictly confirm that lyrium is necessary for Templar powers. Which basically infers that Alistair was lying and taking lyrium behind your back or that this part of the conversation never happened. But then in Inquisition, the writers contradict themselves when Cullen confirms that templars don't start taking lyrium until after they complete their vows and Alistair was recruited before his training and yet could still use templar powers despite not taking that first draught of lyrium. Sloppy writing? Lack of narrative coherence maintenance? Or blatant backtracking which results in more potential plot holes?

 

2) The Dalish system was not portrayed as better or worst than the Chantry system, just different. However, once two games confirm that the Chantry approach to magic is objectively problematic and makes more problems than it solved, it looks like the writers realized that other magic systems like the Dalish seemed far better by comparison. So instead of acknowledging this fact and working it into the story, the writers throw in a bullshit "three mage" rule for the sake of knocking down and blackwashing the Dalish to try and make the Chantry seem better.

 

However, this still fails due to the fact that the Dalish don't view magic as a corrupting influence, merely as a natural part of the world. Therefore, they appear to view magic with healthy respect and caution rather than dogmatic suppression and fear like Andrastians do. And the Dalish viewpoint of magic didn't result in a continent-spanning war that brought their civilization and system of faith to the brink of destruction. Which makes the "three mage" rule retcon and other slaps in the face to the Dalish all the more obvious as intentional or unintentional incidents of black-washing.

 

3) The noteworthy absence of City elves and the lack of reference to their plight also seems like a deliberate exclusion to whitewash the Chantry. Not only to keep things PC, but to also keep from reminding the players that there's an entire caste of people whom are oppressed, tormented and abused and the Chantry either looks the other way or condones it. Oh wait! It was the Chantry who ordered the alienages to be set up in the first place. Places of fervent poverty where people are barred from livable work and the right to defend themselves; hunger and crime are ripe; and elves are often murdered, beaten, raped or sold into slavery without consequence. All under the Chantry's loving watch even though these people are supposed to be followers of the faith as well. This horrific reality of life was forced on city elves as the gift for renouncing their false Dalish beliefs. Yeah, great trade or wait, it's not like the elves truly had a choice what with the Chantry and Orlais completely stripping the elves of the homeland which Andraste's sons gave to them in gratitude for the aid which Shartan and other elves gave their mother.

 

And to add insult to injury, Shartan's deeds were rendered as heresy and banned from the Chant. Even though Shartan and his followers died protecting Andraste. Go ahead and defend this one Bioware, I'll wait. And the "flawed and human" excuse won't work here or anywhere else.

 

With that in mind, it's unsurprising that the Inquisitor can't be a City elf. After all, can you honestly see a City Elf Inquisitor being able to sit in the same room as Celene, knowing that the empress ordered the deaths of thousands of elves? Or that Celene leads a nation where thousands of elves are crammed into a small living space inside of Orlais' capital that's barely the size of Denerem's market square? Or that Orlais' celebrated Chevaliers have a graduation ritual that involves slaughtering elves to "test their blades"? Or the fact that according to the History of Ferelden codex, Ferelden elves were sold as property by Orlesians during the Occupation? And how does this reflect on the Chantry that not only is Orlais the empire that formally organized the Chantry, but that Orlais remains the nation that's closest to the Chantry?

 

But no, none of the above is hardly mentioned or shown because that would make things uncomfortable and weaken any defense of the Chantry that the writers or Chantry supporters could try and come up with.

 

4) Deliberate side-stepping away from true criticism and questioning of Chantry beliefs and Andrastianism which the OP already spoke of in good detail so I won't be redundant here. I will say that the PC is allowed to discuss related matters here, but the game locks the conversation from being too critical of the Chantry and ultimately, the PC is forced to be an Andrastianist ally despite being held as a demi-god himself and could easily have the power and pull to either take control of the Chantry himself (per the dropped Inquisitor Divine ending) or become the founder of a new Andrastian Faith that's closer to Andraste's teachings in practice and writing than the Chantry itself.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Chantry doesn't control the alienages or treatment of the City Elves.

[ShadowLordXII]

The Chantry doesn't control the alienages or treatment of the City Elves.

 

They don't do jack to help either. And again, the Chantry created the alienage system after the Dales.

 

So they're just as responsible for the condition of city elves due to their initial actions and lack of actions.

[thesuperdarkone2]

If I may correct your post, an elven inquisitor is dalish not a city elf

[Hanako Ikezawa]

If I may correct your post, an elven inquisitor is dalish not a city elf

Unfortunately. 

[ShadowLordXII]

If I may correct your post, an elven inquisitor is dalish not a city elf

 

I'll edit it for clarity, but that's part of my point.

 

The fact that the Inquisitor can't be a City Elf is part of the problem with marginalizing or removing references and mentioning of the Alienage. This would be more problematic with a city elf because that theoretical inquisitor would've LIVED through that stuff.

 

Or worst, Bioware would have crapped on the city elves for the sake of their favoritism like they did the dalish elves. IE, retcon aspects of their culture to make the Chantry seem better by comparison and not allowing the elf inquisitor to really stand up for themselves or go on the offensive.

[actionhero112]

They don't do jack to help either. And again, the Chantry created the alienage system after the Dales.

 

So they're just as responsible for the condition of city elves due to their initial actions and lack of actions.

Didn't the start of the City Elf origin begin with a sister marrying the warden and their betrothed, and later objecting to their kidnapping?

 

Wasn't there templars in the alienage investigating demons in origins? 

 

Weren't there elves in the Inquisition throughout the game? 

 

This is bias imo. You don't see the chantry aiding the elves within the alienages because you don't want to. Truth is, the Chantry is one of the more egalitarian organizations in Thedas, with almost no systematic racial bias, or even a gender bias. 

 

Change comes slowly, push too quickly and you just get violence. Also I hate this idea that unless you're actively working to change something, you're complicit in it. Are the Dalish complicit in the treatment of the castless or of othering of surface dwarves? 

[Xerrai]

Didn't the start of the City Elf origin begin with a sister marrying the warden and their betrothed, and later objecting to their kidnapping?

 

Wasn't there templars in the alienage investigating demons in origins? 

 

Weren't there elves in the Inquisition throughout the game? 

 

This is bias imo. You don't see the chantry aiding the elves within the alienages because you don't want to. Truth is, the Chantry is one of the more egalitarian organizations in Thedas, with almost no systematic racial bias, or even a gender bias. 

 

Change comes slowly, push too quickly and you just get violence. Also I hate this idea that unless you're actively working to change something, you're complicit in it. Are the Dalish complicit in the treatment of the castless or of othering of surface dwarves? 

Oh it most certainly has bias. Politics regarding clergy membership aside (must be human, Divine must be female), they have revised their Chant on more than one occasion purely because of bias (ex. Canticle of Shartan), and they teach that the elves have gone farther away from the Maker than man. Furthermore, when dealing with acts of charity, it is not uncommon for them to use race as a means of controlling who gets what.

 

For instance, when telling the Chantry of Jader to distribute food to the refugees/needy they gave clear instructions on who should get the food first. First the Chantry Sisters (who started a food strike to goad the Chantry to give food in the first place knowing they wouldn't send it otherwise), then the Orlesian peasants, the Ferelden refugees, then the elves. Mother Giselle essentially screwed any hope she had of rising within the Chantry precisely because she went against Chantry orders--she gave food to the needy regardless of race and class.

 

Perhaps once the Chantry was as egalitarian as you claim, but one of the big points in Dragon Age Inquisition was how much the Chantry fallen in that regard. They were more concerned with consolidating power than consoling t he masses, and has been that way for some time now.