642 Antworten in diesem Thema

[vertigomez]

This whole premise is erroneous, though. Just like IRL, religions with an unknowable, unquantifiable, omnipotent, singular God are going to be able to explain everything away with: "God works in mysterious ways. This is a test of your faith. Maybe God engineered this situation just-so!"

It's like asking how someone can believe in evolution and creationism at the same time. They believe that God is responsible for evolution.

Polytheism has a far more anthropomorphized concept of the godhead. THIS DOES NOT MAKE IT LESS VALID. The Creators being god-mages and the Avvar worshipping powerful spirits and the dwarves venerating the Stone/their Ancestors are not somehow being shat on by the devs because they're less "mysterious and vague~" and more concrete than Andrastianism's "IDK faith maybe?" situation. Being able to continually make up excuses is a feature of an abstract, inhuman deity.

Mother Giselle's "maybe the Maker interfered and that's why this all happened, even if it wasn't Andraste who saved you from the Fade" isn't the devs telling you that she's right. That's just how someone who wholeheartedly believes (or wants to believe) in that kind of god thinks. It's evident in Sebastian's dialogue with Fenris, too:

Fenris: Danarius once killed a little boy to fuel blood magic that let him impress his fellow Senators at a party. What was the [Maker's] purpose there?
Sebastian: Perhaps it was witnessing that which will give you the strength to prevent it ever happening again.

No amount of realistic explanation is ever going to convince someone with an unknowable God that they did not somehow interfere. Just look at the Urn of Sacred Ashes quest: Oghren LITERALLY SAYS that the temple is built on a butt-ton of lyrium as an explanation for the goings-on, but the faithful would say that the Maker is ultimately responsible for the location of the Ashes. Wise as He is, maybe He knew the Guardian needed to subsist on lyrium idk.

tl;dr the devs are not showing favoritism to Andrastianism. Uncertainty and faith is literally the purpose of that religion.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

*snip*

Uncertainty and faith is literally the purpose of that religion.

 

Yes, uncertainty and faith is the cornerstone of Andrastianism with many evidence to support such a claim. However, Bioware makes an Andrastian's uncertainty and faith as virtues even though they clearly are not virtues.

 

Leliana, Sebastian, Cassandra, Giselle, devout Andrastian Inquisitors, etc are all shown to be very faithful and pious people and Bioware holds faithfulness demonstrated by these people as virtuous. Yet, when you try to point out the inconsistencies of their faith, the criticism is ignored. However, Bioware does not extend the same courtesy to non-Andrastian Elves, Dwarves, and Qunari for that matter. For example, a non-Andrastian Elf is treated at best, a naive ignoramus or at worst, like fecal matter.

 

All I am saying is that in the next game, Andrastians should get the fecal matter treatment that non-Andrastian Elves got in Inquisition because there is, frankly, an overwhelming amount of dirt on Andrastianism that is pushed under the rug, relegated to Codex entries or World of Thedas entries and never brought up in game with other characters. The inconsistency about the woman being Andraste ? Mostly ignored. The reality that it was not Maker who made the Veil ? We did not get to see the Andrastian response. The reality that Southern Chantry is not Andrastianism, but rather Drakonism ? Completely ignored and you can't even bring it up, even with Ameridan who was there when Drakon was being a warmonger.

 

Bioware has said, time and again, that they wish to create a fantasy world where everyone and their cultural systems are flawed in some way. So why can't the flaws in the Andrastian Human cultural system be depicted as it actually is ? Why must it be relegated to Codex entries and World of Thedas sections ? Why can't Andrastians get a dose of "your faith is flawed" when non-Andrastians like the Dalish and the Old God worshipers get it ?

[vertigomez]

The Chantry has faithful people with good hearts and power-hungry zealots who are punished by the narrative. We REPEATEDLY find evidence that it's not "really real" as Sera would say - the Urn sitting on huge lyrium deposits, Corypheus going to the seat of the Maker and finding it empty, Solas creating the Veil. That the faith of Andrastian characters holds out in the face of all this doesn't mean the Chantry's flaws are glossed over. It's just what faithful people do. It's like asking why bakers bake - it's what they do.

Why do you think Leliana has to make all those reforms in the first place? Why do you think Anders targeted the Chantry - the symbol of the faith and ultimately what he holds as responsible for the Circles, moreso than the templars themselves - even though he's an Andrastian? Even characters who believe in the Maker, who believe in Andraste, don't always hold this rosy view of the institution that people claim Bioware has.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

My main problem with how Andrastrianism was handled in DA:I is how its narrative completely drowned out anything else. To me, it really isn't that interesting, which made the game itself a bit bland. The most interesting bits still ended up being related to the ancient elves and to dwarven culture, imo. I realize this is totally subjective and maybe some people think the Andrastrian elements are super interesting, but I just don't enjoy them. It's not that "it's human", even, it's that it's just not very creative and can't really go anywhere but in circles. I know people say to the issue of other cultures being downplayed that it was originally meant to be human only, but that would have just made it so much worse for my own tastes. I also don't think the over saturation of Andrastrian themes in DA:I was just because "they're the majority", because it wasn't this much of a problem in either game before. Even in DA2, where you do have to play a human, I didn't feel the specifically Andrastrian themes over powered the narrative to this extent. They chose to make you lead a group that was created as a tool of the Divine and lead by incredibly devout Andrastrians, with maybe the exception of Josephine, who seems fairly moderate on the issue. It was just too much, in my opinion. I hope in the next game they step back from that kind of thing and give a more balanced spread.

[Catilina]

I like Andrastian religion, and I like Chantry, as it is. I like like the faithful, pious ones, and I like zealots and hypocrites too. Its so real. For example: I like sister Petrice's character, and Elthina, and Sebastian (Sebastian help Fenris so much, but he is a pious vengeful bastard...), I like Leliana, Cassandra and Vivienne's and Sera's character. Colorful characters, and colorful religion.

 

And I like that, this religion are symbolize the real world mayor religions (those with good and bad side). I think, the christianity-analogy are not bad: so much manifold, different and yet the similar, full off dogmatic and less dogmatic believers and heretics.

 

The dwarves are living separately, they are difficult to spread their religion.

[Ahriman]

Nice writing, OP. It's not like Chantry doesn't have controversial points (kudos to BW here), but we can't bring it up for some reason.

I do hope that next time we won't be shoved into andrastian/passive whatever.

Inq: I'm not a Herald of your Andraste.

Cassandra: Shut up and just pretend, you little sh my lord.

Inq: Okay...

These were some of my most annoying episodes in DA:I.

[Gervaise]

One of the most annoying things was when I told Cassandra I believed in my own gods and she asked if there wasn't room in my thinking for one more?   Making it seem as though I was the inflexible religious zealot.   No opportunity to reply that I'd be most happy to oblige but I thought it was the Chantry who wouldn't tolerate any gods but the Maker.    Then later we discover that Ameridan did feel the two faiths were compatible but his mate Drakon wanted to keep things simple.   That was the sort of thing that was so irritating.  Suddenly the Chantry representatives are open minded about other faiths and those professing them are being shown as the narrow minded bigots.  In fact I was just being honest when asked about what I believed, unlike the Chantry personnel who seem to change what they believe with the weather and if events don't fit with their professed faith, simply accommodate the faith to fit events.

 

Do you suppose this was because of the reaction to the portrayal of Petrice in DA2 and so they swung completely back the other way?

[LobselVith8]

It's not favoritism, it's just a reflection of the different conceptions of God and gods according to monotheism and polytheism.

I respectfully disagree. I think there's a stark difference in how the Andrastian faith is treated in comparison to the faith of the Dalish.

The Elven pantheon was neither proven nor disproven, it was just stripped of its myths because its actors are concrete, physical beings. Solas & co. can still be deities in the eyes of mortal elves, should those elves choose to seek their favor. And many do, once they realize that Solas is the Fen"Harel of legend. "...for what is a god but a being of immense power?"

The narrative has us hear that they aren't gods and that they're apparently one-dimensional villainous caricatures. I'd say that disproves the elven religion.

[thats1evildude]

Why now ? Why not during the Blights or Exalted Marches ? Is it because "the Maker works in mysterious ways" ? Blights were far more devastating to Andrastians compared to the Breach.

1) The Blights were the result of man's hubris and thus Thedas must endure them.

2) The Exalted Marches were conflicts engineered by men and the apocalypse was never a possibility.

3) The Blights never kicked off with the death of the current Divine, and none of them began in the middle of the Mage-Templar war. Also, the Breach was only less destructive than the Blights because the Herald stopped it; after only a year in the bad future, it had grown to massive proportions and threatened to swallow the world (what was left of it, anyway).

[LobselVith8]

One of the most annoying things was when I told Cassandra I believed in my own gods and she asked if there wasn't room in my thinking for one more? Making it seem as though I was the inflexible religious zealot.

Actually, what Cassandra did was incredibly crude. Would anyone here seriously ask someone of a different faith to accommodate their religious beliefs to share your own? You don't ask someone who is Jewish if they can make room for Jesus, for example.

[Gervaise]

Perhaps it would have helped if some of the ideas presented earlier in the game had been developed later.   When you go to Val Royeaux the Chantry Mother there asks if you believe that you were sent by the Maker.   If you say yes and ask her what her interpretation is of events, she says quite honestly that she has several but "I am left to question all I have been taught".   She then goes on to say "For you to be true, a great many things must be false, and if you are false, a great many things must have failed."   This does seem to be addressing the problem that the Herald presents to people of faith but these people are always on the opposing side and we never learn how this Chantry Mother reconciled her faith with events as they progressed.   May be she was like Rodderick who seemed to totally come round but it would have been interesting to hear what she later had to say.   

 

In some ways it is all too easy for us to overcome objections.    We do a few war table missions and suddenly the Chantry are no longer a threat.   After the Winter Palace suddenly they are looking to our organisation for the new Divine.    I don't believe that the writers are necessary prejudiced in favour of the Chantry but they simply have trouble confronting the issues they have raised in a meaningful way.   May be if we had been confronted with someone who had totally lost their faith it would have made it seem less contrived but that doesn't really happen.  

 

It was also annoying at times to have words put into your mouth concerning the Dalish and their beliefs.   I felt the worst one was when my Solas romance was forced to say "So that's just another thing we got wrong."    I didn't feel that way at all.   At this point there seemed so much we had got right.   Our gods were confirmed to have existed after all, which previously was open to doubt.    The revelations by Solas in Trespasser seemed to confirm so much more.    I didn't have a problem with them revealing what they did about the Evanuris, although I did wonder why they suddenly started calling them by a different name and still wonder just how many gods that term encompasses.   What was more significant, though, was the implications for the Chantry faith because what Solas had revealed was way more significant than whether I was really the Herald or not.    You would think there would be a Chantry Mother or sister somewhere who would be saying "I am left to question all I have been taught."    In a way I'm glad I was a sceptical elf from the outset because if I had been a pious Andrastrian I would have been having a real crisis of faith.

[Sah291]

Well, like a couple others have pointed out, polytheism lends itself more easily to this sort of criticism from monotheists, I guess, because polytheists don't consider the gods to be perfect or omnipotent, etc.

In polytheism, gods are not completely infallible or ineffable. Monotheistic creator gods on the other hand are supposed to be either completely transcendental, and/or they are the original and supreme creator or architect of ultimate reality, etc. They represent ultimate reality or ultimate divinity and authority, and are therefore perfect and complete in every way....but by their very nature unknowable to the human mind. So there is this whole grappling with faith in an ultimately unknowable god that doesn't directly act or intercede, perhaps except through people, etc.

It's not that polytheists don't have similiar concepts that could be used to explore the same idea. The universe itself is often considered to be either eternal, or sometimes, cyclical. But there are concepts of primordial beings that created the universe as we know it (representing concepts like chaos or the first light, etc)...but these beings gave birth to new beings, who in turn gave birth and created the world, and so on and so forth.

So the gods themselves would be part of creation..which is continously happening and unfolding. Which means they can have desires, reproduce, have conflicts with one another, change, and participate in the creation (and destruction) of the world, etc. And they can be more knowable or active in the world with humans. There could be lesser spirits still, who could act as intermediaries between the gods and humans. Which is one reason why they are depicted as so anthromorphized and human like. You could have a spirit for every part of creation, every major idea or concept, or even places, etc. Sound familiar with all those Spirits of Whatever in Dragon Age?

Anyway, not to go too far off on a tangent. Point is, there is a heck of a lot of polytheist ideas in the game already, but the majority of the audience aren't polytheists or animists, so they aren't as relatable to the player. The Andrastian religion is, more or less. Animism is even more foreign. It's even supposed to be foreign to the Dwarves, who have forgotten a lot about the Titans, etc.

Hopefully, if we are going to Tevinter, we will get to see some criticism, since they follow the Black Divine there and have some very differet views of Andraste. And maybe we will get to see another side of the Evanuris, etc.

[vertigomez]

The narrative has us hear that they aren't gods and that they're apparently one-dimensional villainous caricatures. I'd say that disproves the elven religion.

Uh, no. What is a god? Look at ancient Hellenic religion: mortals could become gods, and the pantheon was FULL of power-hungry arseholes. This doesn't make it less valid than Christianity or Islam.

The revelations only "disprove" elven religion if you yourself take a very monotheistic, black-and-white view of what religion is and what the nature of a god is.

[LobselVith8]

Uh, no.

 

Considering that we're explicitly told they weren't gods, let's just say I disagree with you.

 

What is a god? Look at ancient Hellenic religion: mortals could become gods, and the pantheon was FULL of power-hungry arseholes. This doesn't make it less valid than Christianity or Islam.

 

I'm pretty sure the Dalish didn't think the elven gods were one-dimensional caricatures, which is how they're described.

 

The revelations only "disprove" elven religion if you yourself take a very monotheistic, black-and-white view of what religion is and what the nature of a god is.

 

It actually disproves the idea that the Creators were more nuanced and fleshed out since we're told they're ridiculously and cartoonishly evil.

[vertigomez]

Considering that we're explicitly told they weren't gods, let's just say I disagree with you.

Again, what is a god? Are the Avvar gods not gods because they're spirits? I think they still count. If the Old Gods are just dragons, are they not gods? I'd disagree with that, and I disagree that being a god-mage doesn't make you a god, either, unless you subscribe to a VERY specific definition of godhood.
 

I'm pretty sure the Dalish didn't think the elven gods were one-dimensional caricatures, which is how they're described.

It actually disproves the idea that the Creators were more nuanced and fleshed out since we're told they're ridiculously and cartoonishly evil.

Why, because they're power-hungry a-holes? What else is new? You're describing most gods in most pantheons around the world.

[LobselVith8]

Again, what is a god? Are the Avvar gods not gods because they're spirits? I think they still count. If the Old Gods are just dragons, are they not gods? I'd disagree with that, and I disagree that being a god-mage doesn't make you a god, either, unless you subscribe to a VERY specific definition of godhood.

 

Again, since Solas says they aren't gods but simply powerful mages (and since we're equating this information with such tales like Elgar'nan fighting the Sun), I really don't see the point. They're clearly not gods in the way that the Dalish believed.

 

Why, because they're power-hungry a-holes? What else is new? You're describing most gods in most pantheons around the world.

 

While the developers have made it clear that they won't handle the Andrastian faith in a comparable way.

[Wulfram]

I tend to interpret Solas's claim - and that of his followers - that the Evanuris were/are not gods as more of a political statement than objective fact, but the presentation in game seems to suggest we're supposed to accept it at face value.

The Inquisitor seems to take it as a fact, which is one of the things that annoys me about Trespasser.

[The Elder King]

I don't think they're gods as the dalish believed, but I'd say they're more then powerful mages. They're on a different league.

[Sah291]

Solas' view of the Evanuris is pretty biased and one sided, though, you have to admit. We have really only seen them so far from his perespective, and from the perspective of humans and Andrastianism....

But anyway, I think this is hitting the central theme of the game. What is a god, and what qualifies something as a god? And what makes one worth following or not? Is it simply enough to have followers or to be very powerful? Or to have been responsible for creation? Or, etc?

[vertigomez]

Again, since Solas says they aren't gods but simply powerful mages (and since we're equating this information with such tales like Elgar'nan fighting the Sun), I really don't see the point. They're clearly not gods in the way that the Dalish believed.

Okay? So their perception of their gods was wrong. That doesn't mean they have to reject the belief system in its entirety, unless you're a person who only sees value in omnipotent, unknowable, unfathomable deities. It's okay to worship something that's real. It's even okay to worship something that's terrible and awesome a la Old Testament God or Asha'bellanar.

While the developers have made it clear that they won't handle the Andrastian faith in a comparable way.

Andrastianism teaches that the Maker has forsaken his people and over and over again we're confronted with corruption in the Chantry itself, so much so that an Andrastian - Anders - blows it to pieces to make a point.

What do you want, proof that the Maker is just a powerful spirit, or that Andraste was a mage? There are already people in-universe who speculate that this is the case, and the Southern faithful will never believe it anyway.

[LobselVith8]

Okay? So their perception of their gods was wrong. That doesn't mean they have to reject the belief system in its entirety, unless you're a person who only sees value in omnipotent, unknowable, unfathomable deities. It's okay to worship something that's real. It's even okay to worship something that's terrible and awesome a la Old Testament God or Asha'bellanar.

 

I don't see why the Dalish would continue to follow them once they discover they are villainous.

 

Andrastianism teaches that the Maker has forsaken his people and over and over again we're confronted with corruption in the Chantry itself, so much so that an Andrastian - Anders - blows it to pieces to make a point.

 

While we are provided with far more positive representation with members of the Chantry while the narrative continually frames the Dalish in a negative light. We have the games pushing us to like characters like Elthina and Giselle. The developers are even willing to change things to persuade fans to feel differently about a character, like they were with Giselle apologizing in Trespasser for what she said about Dorian (because of all the fan backlash against her for it).

 

The games never try and do that with the Dalish despite how some players feel about them. The scene where Hawke encounters Clan Sabrae, for example, involves Hawke being confused while the Dalish are apprehensive; rather than inform the player that the Dalish have a myriad of reasons to be cautious, it instead involves Varric and Fenris make disparaging remarks towards them. Unless you read the codex entries about the Chantry outlawing their religion and the attacks they face, or wait until Act III and hear optional and easily missed dialogue about the Andrastian humans threatening them with vilence to convert, you'd never understand why they are wary in the first place.

 

How the developers handle the Andrastian faith, and even Andrastians, is very different than how they handle other religions, particularly the religion of the Dalish that they recently dismantled by vilifying the Creators.

[Zero]

The perception the game, specially Trespasser, imposes on us is that the Evanuris are evil beings that have to be sealed away because if not the world is doomed. They literally demonized the Dalish religion to a point that worshiping the Evanuris is something foolish, like if you're worshipping the darkspawn for that matter. Heck, Sera outright says the Dalish are stupid after the events of the Arbor Wilds for still believing in their gods.

 

While Andrastianism is presented as a force "of good and unity", despite all the stuff that demonstrates that the Chantry was created under false basis, and their leaders changed historical facts (Ameridan) just to amass power. And nobody says "Andrastian are stupid for believing the Maker created the Veil", for example.

 

In fact, all the battle against Corypheus does reinforce the tale of evil Tevinter Mages who doomed the world by going to the Golden City bull***t, even if Corypheus says there was no god in that City, that was already evil and tainted when they went there. "It just him lying because of x and y", is what Mother Giselle says if you confront her with the truth. Yet, no Dalish is depicted saying "is Fen'Harel propaganda that the Evanuris are evil. We know Fen'Harel is a trickster and of course he will say that". No, the game is absolutely clear all believe the Evanuris are evil, beyond shadows of doubt, even if the one revealing the truth admits that the elven myths about him are true and he is an evil bastard who destroyed the elven world, and is going to destroy the current one as well.

 

 

Why do you think Vivienne would be the best option for this? She seems to want to uphold the status quo the most of all the Divine choices.

 
Putting a mage in the Sunburst Throne is making Orlesian Andrastianism be a step closer to become like the Imperial Andrastianism, regardless of whatever measures Vivienne took as Divine Victoria. Cassandra is really disgusted in Trespasser for this, and still abandons the Exalted Council in the epilogue, because she thinks Viv is "perverting the Chant of Light". Really, is the only time in the game I see an andrastian getting shocked because something of Andrastianism is wrong.

[The Elder King]

It's not just because they're evil that they were sealed. It's because they're incredibly powerful, otherwise Solas would've just killed them. And his action was partially based on revengenfor Mythal.
Which historical facts Ameridas changed?

Also, I think the Veil reveal will have its effect on Andrastian faith in the next game.

[vertigomez]

I don't see why the Dalish would continue to follow them once they discover they are villainous.

Zeus and Kali and YHWH could all be considered villainous. That doesn't stop people from venerating them.

While we are provided with far more positive representation with members of the Chantry while the narrative continually frames the Dalish in a negative light. We have the games pushing us to like characters like Elthina and Giselle. The developers are even willing to change things to persuade fans to feel differently about a character, like they were with Giselle apologizing in Trespasser for what she said about Dorian (because of all the fan backlash against her for it).

TONS of people hate Elthina for being an apathetic, placating, sanctimonious pushover, and Giselle and Sebastian for being preachy. Petrice is one of the most manipulative, least liked, villainous characters in the franchise.

The games never try and do that with the Dalish despite how some players feel about them. The scene where Hawke encounters Clan Sabrae, for example, involves Hawke being confused while the Dalish are apprehensive; rather than inform the player that the Dalish have a myriad of reasons to be cautious, it instead involves Varric and Fenris make disparaging remarks towards them.

The guard says, "We are the last of the elvhen." and Varric and Fenris criticize him for it because there are elves everywhere and the Dalish don't get to decide who's a real elf.

Unless you read the codex entries about the Chantry outlawing their religion and the attacks they face, or wait until Act III and hear optional and easily missed dialogue about the Andrastian humans threatening them with vilence to convert, you'd never understand why they are wary in the first place.

Merrill's introduction literally has her saying that her people tell horror stories of your kind - good reason to be wary, and she goes on to say that normally the Dalish are good people who help each other.

How the developers handle the Andrastian faith, and even Andrastians, is very different than how they handle other religions, particularly the religion of the Dalish that they recently dismantled by vilifying the Creators.

No, it's not. If they've "dismantled" anything it's to explore it. The Chant says the Maker created the Veil? Nope, that's a lie. The Chant says the Maker dwells in the Golden City? Nope, that's a lie. Popular opinion is that the Inquisitor was rescued by Andraste? Nope, that's a lie.

It's not different than saying the Creators aren't what you thought they were.

[Zero]

Which historical facts Ameridas changed?

 

Ameridan was a Dalish mage elf, lover of a mage elven woman as well. Yet the Chantry says he was a chaste human knight, just because having an Inquisitor elf friend of the Chantry founder it would have been odd with their demonizing of the Dales people.