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Bioware's Favoritism Towards Andrastianism


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#476
Vit246

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Zathrian's clan in Dragon Age: Origin's 

Marathari's clan in Dragon Age 2

The clan in Dragon Age: The Masked Empire

 

Just a guess. 

 

*sigh*

 

Zathrian was driven by grief and anger and he knew what he was doing and what he had to really do to put an end to it provided he gets persuaded to see the light. And the clan doesn't have to die.

Marethari's clan dies because they were stupidly enraged and Hawke killed them all. The demon pretty much did jack shite. And the clan still doesn't have to die.

The clan in TME was such a ridiculous strawman I frankly refuse to acknowledge it.

 

You can't just make a blanket statement without context.


Modifié par Vit246, 28 juillet 2016 - 12:13 .


#477
Qun00

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No other Thedosian religion is openly mocked quite as often as Andrastianism.

#478
Steelcan

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No other Thedosian religion is openly mocked quite as often as Andrastianism.

because having blasphemy laws in the setting might make it too close to actually being Medieval



#479
Vit246

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because having blasphemy laws in the setting might make it too close to actually being Medieval

Now that you mention it, I wish the setting had blasphemy laws.



#480
Qun00

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because having blasphemy laws in the setting might make it too close to actually being Medieval


Unnecessary. The characters could be against that on their own.

#481
TEWR

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Let's not forget Bioware's open favoritism towards the Templars by way of giving them far more content in Inquisition through the War Table then the Mages.



#482
ShadowLordXII

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*sigh*

 

Zathrian was driven by grief and anger and he knew what he was doing and what he had to really do to put an end to it provided he gets persuaded to see the light. And the clan doesn't have to die.

Marethari's clan dies because they were stupidly enraged and Hawke killed them all. The demon pretty much did jack shite. And the clan still doesn't have to die.

The clan in TME was such a ridiculous strawman I frankly refuse to acknowledge it.

 

You can't just make a blanket statement without context.

 

To clarify, Zathrian's actions were in response to his clan getting attacked, his son being tortured and murdered and his daughter getting raped, forcibly impregnated and driven to suicide. His clan saw hundreds of years of relative peace until the descendants of the werewolves attacked Zathrian's clan to try and force him to left the curse.

 

Marethari refused to let go of Merrill and pointlessly sacrificed herself because she couldn't trust Merrill to handle herself or trust Hawke to be able to protect her. After the demon was slain (which would have happened anyway as Merrill brought Hawke and Company along to help her), the clan's stupidity really is the only logical reason why they were wiped out.

 

Didn't read TME, so no comment there.

 

And even with the above, the Chantry still comes out as way worst regarding their approach to magic.



#483
DebatableBubble

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No other Thedosian religion is openly mocked quite as often as Andrastianism.

 

And has not had any major revelations supporting it. What has been revealed has contradicted parts of it.



#484
KaiserShep

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Let's not forget Bioware's open favoritism towards the Templars by way of giving them far more content in Inquisition through the War Table then the Mages.

 

 

Well, that would make sense. The Templars are typically more accepted throughout Thedas, so they can freely operate without much issue. Even if some people resent them for walking out on the Chantry, the most they'd fear are villagers throwing rotten fruit, rather than an angry mob with pitchforks. You couldn't send a legion of mages to much of anything, especially not during a time with a magical cataclysm afoot. 


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#485
Qun00

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And has not had any major revelations supporting it. What has been revealed has contradicted parts of it.


Here I thought it was Bioware's favorite...

#486
KaiserShep

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And has not had any major revelations supporting it. What has been revealed has contradicted parts of it.

 

 

Well, that certainly makes it the most realistic. 



#487
IHaveReturned1999

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To clarify, Zathrian's actions were in response to his clan getting attacked, his son being tortured and murdered and his daughter getting raped, forcibly impregnated and driven to suicide. His clan saw hundreds of years of relative peace until the descendants of the werewolves attacked Zathrian's clan to try and force him to left the curse.

I don't blame Zathrian for cursing them for what they done to his children, and part of me wants to help him to complete his vengeance (Ooh I really want to!). But I helped the spirit to lift the curse for Zathrian's sake and for the people he loved, not for the spirit or for those werewolves.

#488
thesuperdarkone2

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Let's not forget Bioware's open favoritism towards the Templars by way of giving them far more content in Inquisition through the War Table then the Mages.


You mean the same Templars that are ignored in trespasser? Not to mention the whole Lucius being a douche in Val royeaux stuff and cameos in the Mage mission

Plus you only get more war table missions if you ally with them and barris survives. You are kidding yourself if you think the game prefers the Templars

#489
Gervaise

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The defence I am giving further up is based on how it appears to a Lavellan who is not in a romance with Solas.    He never gets told about the slave markings.   In fact if you kill Corypheus quickly enough, you never even get his mocking comments.     All he sees is the vallaslin being removed by Fen'Harel.    So nothing about nobles marking their slaves.    He also never met Felassan and when talking with Briala, just gets told ancient elf society was not much different from modern ones.

 

There have been instances of people willingly working on a religious monument with great industry without them being slaves.   In fact working on cathedrals and abbey buildings was a useful way of supplying employment in the local community and the people put heart and soul into the effort because it meant something to them.   When you see the thousands of elves maintaining a magical ritual that builds the Grand Sollanium there is no mention of slavery and it is unlikely that unwilling participants would be able to maintain that amount of concentration in the job at hand.    It is also unlikely that thousands of servants/slaves could have built that statue in a single afternoon without magic.   The memories of the reaction to his action do not suggest that people were pleased and relieved to be free of their gods; on the contrary they wanted them back.  

 

Now I don't dispute that at the end the Evanuris had become corrupt.   May be that is the nature of things.   Solas seems to suggest as much.    It could also have been because of something external acting upon them, such as red lyrium.    That seems to be sufficient to turn anyone into a raging megalomaniac. 

 

What I am trying to get at is how culpable were the entire pantheon in Mythal's death.   What led up to it?    I don't know how long Solas had been around but apparently there had been thousands of years of elven history when the empire was built, the great magical structures he admired were put into place, magic was used by all people as easily as breathing and he recalls it all with nostalgia.   He even admits that the Evanuris weren't always seen as gods and therefore likely they weren't tyrants either.    They could well have been the guides and teachers that the Dalish remember but this was before the war that started them on the road to corruption.  Presumably the Evanuris became generals in the war because they were considered best able to lead or the only ones willing to do so.   So instead of simply saying that the entire Dalish belief system is invalidated by what the gods became, it might be better to question why this happened?

 

Just look at Andrastrianism.   It was started, so we are told, by someone who wanted to free her people from tyrants and slavery.    Then the faith was first adopted by the chief of those tyrants, in a blood bath of his rivals, and slavery exists to this day under the banner of the Maker.    Down south, another tyrant, Drakon, achieved hero status because of his efforts in the 2nd Blight but he also wiped out numerous other religions and rival cults to the Maker, until only his own remained.  Yet Andrastrianim is celebrated as a great unifier.    Like hell it is.   It is a convenience that keeps the corrupt rulers in power.

 

Before tearing down the modern world, perhaps Solas should think more carefully as to why things go wrong.    Still if I could get rid of all the corrupt systems of government in Thedas in one fell swoop, without the ordinary people suffering as a result, I'd sort of go for it.   What a minute, isn't that what the Qun were going to do?    Of course, naturally I didn't want them to succeed.   

 

Still the actual system of governance currently promoted by the Dalish is actually a pretty good basis for a bigger community.  Just remove the requirement for the Keeper/Guide to always be a mage.    They believe this is how their ancient world was governed and for all we know, perhaps early on that was the case.    That's why simply rubbishing their belief isn't good enough, particularly when we are constantly asked to uphold political systems that seem no different to that which Solas condemns.   You do actually need laws that people abide by and someone to lead, just not the ones we currently have.   If any of the rulers in Thedas actually upheld the moral code of the Maker, I wouldn't have such a problem with Andrastrianism but as it stands, it is a dead faith: their god doesn't respond to them and they don't live their lives by his teaching.

 

Solas also tends to change his motives in the narrative.   First he raised the Veil because  he wanted to punish the Evanuris, then he says if he hadn't done so, the Evanuris would have destroyed the world.    So he destroyed the world of the elves, to prevent the destruction of the whole world but was upset because in stopping the latter, he didn't anticipate the former?     How were they going to destroy the world?    How is putting everything back as before going to change anything?    Even if the corrupt Evanuris were destroyed, how can he be sure a new set of super elves wouldn't arise to rule over the rest once more?

 

I also get this nasty suspicion that the way the narrative is going, we are going to discover the Evanuris were really responsible for the Blight, thus leading to yet more suffering for the elves as people blame them for that and ultimately a lot of dead elves because they end up on the wrong side from our hero PC.    If that is the case, I think I'll just decide not to play.


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#490
Gervaise

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With regard to the Dalish and the responsible use of magic, each of those instances of a clan being wiped out, was connected with the fact that the Keeper had contravened Dalish belief that you don't mess with spirits.   It was an individual going against traditional teaching of the Dalish Elders.

 

In the case of Zathrian, at the next Arlathvhen, the hahren'al (gathering of the Elders), specifically condemned the actions of Zathrian as a "crime against nature", in manipulating the spirit at the heart of the forest as he did.  

 

In the case of Marethari, having banished Merrill for refusing to give up her blood magic and demon associations, that should have been an end of it.  However, as the clan later acknowledges if you don't wipe them out, she put the welfare of one individual, Merrill, above that of the clan, even though, by her own choice, she was no longer part of it.     No doubt, the hahren'al would have condemned that at the next gathering.

 

In the case of Thelhen, his clan seemed well aware they were dabbling with forces beyond their control.   Thelhen seemed to think it worth the risk to get control of the eluvians.   It was a big prize.   Still I suspect he was probably encouraged on that path by Felassan because it seems too convenient that his mission was precisely to get hold of control of the eluvians.    However, Thelhen was not willing to do the deal with Imshael that he demanded, that of allowing someone to become possessed.    This would suggest that at this point Thelhen was adhering to Dalish beliefs on the matter and probably regretting summoning the demon that he had.   Whether the demon would have ultimately controlled the clan anyway from its prison into letting it go free, whether the Keeper would have succumbed to temptation or simply banished the demon back to the Fade, is a somewhat moot point, since the clan was wiped out by the actions of Michel and the failure of Felassan to prevent this, since he knew full well that it would result in freeing the demon.    At the end, the only survivor, Mihris, has learned the lesson of this sequence of events, since she says she will be looking for a clan that doesn't deal in demons.   The majority of clans don't because, I repeat, it is specifically against their cultural traditions to involve themselves in any magic involving spirits.


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#491
Inkvisiittori

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*sigh*

 

Zathrian was driven by grief and anger and he knew what he was doing and what he had to really do to put an end to it provided he gets persuaded to see the light. And the clan doesn't have to die.

Marethari's clan dies because they were stupidly enraged and Hawke killed them all. The demon pretty much did jack shite. And the clan still doesn't have to die.

The clan in TME was such a ridiculous strawman I frankly refuse to acknowledge it.

 

You can't just make a blanket statement without context.

 

Marethari is to blame for every dalish elf of her clan who died in DA2.

 

The dalish never stay in one place for long because it is too dangerous - yet clan Sabrae stays in the same area for almost a decade.

 

The only reason for this seems to Marethari's concern for Merrill - who has of her own freewill abandoned the clan. This is same Marethari who moved the clan away even when Tamlen was still missing - why is it different for Merrill? Keeper who sacrifices safety of the entire clan for one person is extremely irresponsible. She lets a demon possess her forcing Merrill and Hawke kill her. Did she honestly not think how badly the clan would react to this? A known blood mage deserter and a shem killed their Keeper - is it any wonder they want revenge? Marethari is the one who has frightened them with tales about Merrill's blood magic in the first place - so much so that Pol even runs to his own death rather than be near her. Either she didn't think consequences and is very shortsighted or only cares about the fact that "Merrill is safe at last" - either way she is not suited to be a leader of the clan (unfortunately for them this was not realized before).

 

Marethari's stupidity and Merrill's mindless obsession with the Mirror is to blame for clan Sabrae's fate.

 

Zathrian's only fault would be to trust an outsider to help the clan (if his clan is killed by the Warden). I guess that was because he was desperate. In my worldstate I sided with Zathrian and killed the werewolves so his clan is alive and well. I don't blame him for wanting to avenge his family - but Zathrian should not have bring his clan to the area where the werewolves were in the first place. That was his mistake. I don't remember if there was some reason why he did it, but if not then it was just a careless decision.

 

I agree about clan Virnehn. I did not like at all how the dalish were presented in TME. In my opinion it was not very good writing for it simply felt like a way to make Briala and others look better in comparison. They were described as petty and ill-tempered folk - like some stupid human bandits. Nothing like the dalish clan Marric and Loghain met in The Stolen Throne. On the other hand Solas did say that all dalish clans are completely different from each other because they have lived in seclusion for so long. That makes sense. I just wish we could get more positive examples of the dalish elves because it feels like so much more often we get only very negative one's...


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#492
Ieldra

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Well, when you get down to it, the lands DAI take place in are dominated by humans who follow the southern Chantry.  And so that is going to be the dominant religion shown in the game.  Yet even there we find people who believe in different ways.

 

We've got the devout Cassandra who believes the Chantry has lost it's way

We have the casual believer Sera who's terrified of the stories being "really real"

We have the non-religious believer Dorian 

We have Varric, who protestations to the side, has quietly started believing in the Maker in his own way.

 

And in addition, the mere existence of Coryphious paradoxically calls into question one of the biggest precepts of the Chantry:  That the magisters blackened the Golden CIty, and the Maker cursed them and cast them out. 

If you haven't noticed, that exactly underscores my point. The organization - the Chantry - may be criticized, but the beliefs themselves are never called into question. The mere existence of Corypheus calls into question exactly nothing. but rather supports the beliefs: he is a darkspawn, he was one of the magisters who entered the City. That the City was already black when he got there is asserted only by him - and who trusts the villain of the story?


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#493
Zero

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Zathrian's only fault would be to trust an outsider to help the clan (if his clan is killed by the Warden). I guess that was because he was desperate. In my worldstate I sided with Zathrian and killed the werewolves so his clan is alive and well. I don't blame him for wanting to avenge his family - but Zathrian should not have bring his clan to the area where the werewolves were in the first place. That was his mistake. I don't remember if there was some reason why he did it, but if not then it was just a careless decision.

 

Well, Zathrian didn't bring his clan to a region infested by werewolves. They ambushed him, and attacked his clan while they were crossing the forest. According to lore, there is only one road in the Brecilian Forest, and using this road is a must for the Dalish (because their Aravels). However, the werewolves were acting out of desperation. They tried to parley with Zathrian before, and he refused them so many times, that the werewolves had to force him to listen this time. 

 

Zathrian isn't blameless, also. He was punishing people that had nothing to do with the murders of his family. Those werewolves were at least three centuries removed of their ancestors, yet they were paying only because Zathrian was too "old to forget" (his own words —he says that if you convince him to free the Lady of the Forest). I would have killed those werewolves myself if they were the same persons who killed his son and raped his daughter... but those weren't. Those werewolves were innocent people paying for crimes they didn't commit.

 

If you kill the werewolves, the epilogue states Zathrian cannot live with that hatred and disappears some time after the Fifth Blight (possibly, he killed himself).

 

That's why I prefer for him the redemption route: lift the curse, die a hero in the eyes of his clan (Lanaya's words), and simultaneously paying with his own life for all the suffering he caused to innocent people (the current werewolves). 

 

Yet, all this episode leaves the Dalish mages in a better position than the Chantry, as Zathrian can potentially take responsability of this and stop the fight even if that cost his life, instead of doing pointless Conclaves that accomplished nothing or forcing empresses to kill elves to suppress the war. 


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#494
Gervaise

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It is poor writing to suggest the reason clans are so different is living in seclusion when we are told they have a major gathering of the clans every 10 years specifically to exchange lore and keep in touch, so they will maintain a commonality between them.   Different clans may react in different ways to their neighbours depending on the region they are in and some may be more hostile with humans than others.    Some have turned to banditry.    However, those that have moved furthest away from traditional culture and values likely wouldn't bother attending the Arlathvhen at all.

 

The clan in Masked Empire was about as extreme as you can get.    Thelhen's opinion about the city elves and the clans that assist them was in complete contradiction to what we have witnessed and been told before in codices.   They are not "poor cousins, lost to us forever" because the Dalish are maintaining their ancient culture specifically against the day when they have a homeland that both Dalish and city elves can enjoy, when they can teach the latter the things that have been lost.    They may look down on city elves who remain in the human settlements allowing themselves to be oppressed but that is specifically because they would welcome them into their clans if they no longer wanted to submit to this.   That is why they have the mantra "We are the last of the elvhen and never again will we submit."    That is what it means to be a Dalish, no one tells you how you should live, least of all the humans.  

 

The way the clan was depicted in Masked Empire was specifically to "excuse" the actions of Briala and company in allowing them to be torn apart by a demon.   Also to make it seem as though Felassan had been right to keep her from joining the Dalish and Briala was wrong to think that the Dalish were at all concerned about the kin in the cities.   Also the idea that the Dalish had devised some sort of torture that they use on captives as a form of amusement.    This almost justifies the stories that the Chantry spread about the barbaric elves.    Yet once again, is in complete contradiction of Dalish culture, namely the Vir Assan.  "Strike true; do not waver.  And do not let your prey suffer".    

 

The whole rubbishing of the Dalish belief system, together with their own character assassination in Masked Empire and DAI, seems to me to be setting them up for a fall in future games.    No doubt, knowing the amount of anti-elf sentiment in the fan base, they hope that reducing any sympathy we have for the Dalish will negate any potential backlash against their demise.      I think it is a pity that they have done this to the Dalish.   I never regarded them as perfect and my sympathies tended to be more with the city elves, but after what has been done to them recently, and having thoroughly immersed myself in their culture to play my Lavellan, I am now resentful at this turnaround and manipulation of established lore about them to make them appear the villains and therefore disposable.


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#495
Zero

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The whole rubbishing of the Dalish belief system, together with their own character assassination in Masked Empire and DAI, seems to me to be setting them up for a fall in future games.    No doubt, knowing the amount of anti-elf sentiment in the fan base, they hope that reducing any sympathy we have for the Dalish will negate any potential backlash against their demise.      I think it is a pity that they have done this to the Dalish.   I never regarded them as perfect and my sympathies tended to be more with the city elves, but after what has been done to them recently, and having thoroughly immersed myself in their culture to play my Lavellan, I am now resentful at this turnaround and manipulation of established lore about them to make them appear the villains and therefore disposable.

 

I cannot have said this better even if I tried (because my bad english). I think the same. I was not a Dalish fan, but what they're doing is destroying one of the best non-tolkieneske elven concepts in modern fiction.



#496
Dean_the_Young

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It is poor writing to suggest the reason clans are so different is living in seclusion when we are told they have a major gathering of the clans every 10 years specifically to exchange lore and keep in touch, so they will maintain a commonality between them.  

 

 

Dude, have you ever dealt with people who only get in touch every ten years?

 

(No, seriously- have you?)

 

That's, like, worse than high school reunions. At least those occur with people who actually lived and grew up together for significant portions of their life. Dalish have less contact with eachother than rival football teams. Every clan is bringing different experiences, and different perspectives, and different wants and needs, and only has a very short amount of time to share and take in each other's. And on top of that they're horse-trading people for their own personal needs and desires, before going away to live their own lives in their own corners of the world where their immediate neighbors once more have far more relevance. Yeah, a transferee takes their experiences with them, but foreign transfer students hardly culturally unite international schools. If a Dalish lives to the venerable age of fifty, they might- might- remember seeing a bunch of Dalish clans together four times in their life.

 

Getting more and more different, to the point of cultural fragmentation, isn't absurd, it's expected- so much so that expecting otherwise is ridiculous. Coming together once a decade in the name of cultural unity doesn't mean it actually does that, any more than making sure to drink water once a year keeps you alive. You have to drink water a lot more often that that to stay healthy, and you have to interact with people a lot more than once a decade to keep a uniform culture.

 

But the Dalish don't, which is why they don't, which is why the myth of a common True Elven culture has always been just that- a myth. The Dalish never had a single True Culture- they don't even have the record keeping to define their own culture, let alone the knowledge of what True Elf culture actually was. They just have common things so vague they're mostly non-falsifiable, and call it good enough since it's all interchangeable. We (and by 'we', I mean 'people who didn't actually think about it') only believed there was a single Dalish culture because our insights into Dalish culture were limited to effectively one clan type at first in DAO. Then in every source since we've seen different types, and different takes, on the Dalish identity.

 

There's no deconstruction, or fall, or reversal of things claimed, because none of this is new. Guess what? Those small groups of people in different places with different neighbors and different circumstances, filled with people with different views, who all only get together once a decade or so and do things their own way... they're actually kidna different from eachother! Who knew?

 

Well, besides the people who read the codexes about the difference in tribes, and listened to the Dalish elves and saw the differences in views and group dynamics, and had any passing familiarity with how common cultures are actually forged and maintained and noted how the Dalish lack most of those means.


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#497
Dean_the_Young

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I cannot have said this better even if I tried (because my bad english). I think the same. I was not a Dalish fan, but what they're doing is destroying one of the best non-tolkieneske elven concepts in modern fiction.

 

Since the Dalish have been written as highly self-destructive since DAO, wouldn't that be the point?

 

The Dalish have been depicted as many things, but I can't think of the time where the writers wrote of the Dalish way of life and attitudes as good. Deserving pity, sometimes, but hardly venerable. One of first possible introductions to the Dalish culture is to contemplate the murder of innocent humans with a mostly sympathetic ally encouraging cold-blooded murderer, and the great infliction we have to overcome in the course of the Dalish questline is of a bigoted man who woulld rather watch his people suffer and die than stop inflicting misery and suffering on innocent people.

 

That's not even getting into the Dalish narrative of DA2, let alone the revelations of DAI.



#498
Inkvisiittori

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Zathrian isn't blameless, also. He was punishing people that had nothing to do with the murders of his family. Those werewolves were at least three centuries removed of their ancestors, yet they were paying only because Zathrian was too "old to forget" (his own words —he says that if you convince him to free the Lady of the Forest). I would have killed those werewolves myself if they were the same persons who killed his son and raped his daughter... but those weren't. Those werewolves were innocent people paying for crimes they didn't commit.

 

"No one is innocent." - Leliana. 

 

Killing those humans will not bring Zathrian's family back. They are dead forever and so should they who killed them suffer forever as well. They did not kill and rape Zathrian - they did that to his children. So the only way to get revenge is to do the same - curse them and all who descend from them.

 

Eye for an eye, a son for a son.



#499
Iakus

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If you haven't noticed, that exactly underscores my point. The organization - the Chantry - may be criticized, but the beliefs themselves are never called into question. The mere existence of Corypheus calls into question exactly nothing. but rather supports the beliefs: he is a darkspawn, he was one of the magisters who entered the City. That the City was already black when he got there is asserted only by him - and who trusts the villain of the story?

If he only stated that in DAI, I would agree, he would likely be trash-talking the Herald, trolling him/her  to show how superior he is.  Every word would be suspect.

 

But, he stated very similar things back in the Legacy DLC, where he was confused from his recent awakening, didn't know who he was talking to, and had no reason to lie.

 

Similarly, his memories at the Shrine of Dumat by implication bolster his claim: "They spit on our deeds and claim we brought darkness into the world.  We discovered the darkness.  We claimed it as our own, let it permeate our being."  Again with no way of knowing anyone but he would discover this.


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#500
Iakus

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Even Solas gives credence that the Maker might exist in a conversation with Cassandra.

It is certainly possible.  And it is equally possible that the Maker is not a god as we would understand it:  an old man with a bird image, either as abenevolent protector or a vengeful lightning-hurler.

 

I mean we now have confirmation that the elven Creators exist, though the form of the Evanuris is not what we would have expected.  

 

Similarly, the Titans are likely an aspect of the Stone venerated by dwarves, long forgotten. And they certainty aren't a form of divinity we would expect.

 

And the jaws of Hakkon showed that Hakkon, as well as Korth and other Avvar deities exist, albeit they are powerful Fade spirits.

 

So who knows what form the Maker might take, if he was ever to be revealed?

 

Edit:  How much you want to bet Koslun wasn't exactly the person the Qunari believe him to be as well?