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Bioware's Favoritism Towards Andrastianism


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#551
Sah291

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The answer is yes. I can easily see that. That's not why the Inquisitor can't be a City Elf. What I can't imagine is the final conversation with Solas if the elf was a city elf. There were a bunch of "everything you believe in is no more than a quarter true" revelations aimed at Dalish elves that would just fall flat if the elf wasn't Dalish in the first place. The big Dwarf revelation only came in DLC, but it did come and more or less justified their inclusion.

Well considering the story was originally human only, I felt they wanted the Inquisitor to come from a more conservative or traditional background to start. Hence a human noble from a pious Chantry connected family, and a Circle mage who is noble and attended the Conclave to negotiate, and not an Apostate. The Dalish who aim to keep their old ways are the traditional elven equivalent. The Dwarven and Qunari Inquisitor don't really fit that pattern, but they added DLC to justify them, so that each Inquisitor is now potentially set against and apart from their own people and traditional culture due to circumstances. The Qunari fights Qunari, the Dwarf kills a Titan, the Dalish confronts Solas, the human opposes apostates and renegade Templars, and fights for Chantry reform. Each race is likely to regard the Inquisitor as a heretic, traitor, or outsider for one reason or another by the end of the game, as reactionary forces mount against them.

What strikes me is that if the Dalish side with Solas, Lavellan, who was once a hero who represented change for the elves, will now really be an antagonist in their eyes...a traitor fighting on the side of shem humans against their own people... that's pretty tragic, but potentially interesting. Too bad we will have a new protagonist though.
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#552
Xilizhra

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I think werewolves loose their minds after well they are turned to werewolves...so it would be complicated to punish them for something they had no control over.

That would be a viable defense for their actions before the Lady of the Forest restored their minds, yes. Not after.

 

 

You even get a small side quest in DA2 (if you made peace between elves and those humans) one human is chased by a group of Dalish who wants to gut him and he says he's sorry and all that but the elves don't care.

If you protect the human  you get another small group of Dalish fond of suicide by Hawke.

This is why diplomatic Hawke is superior.

 

So the answer is 'no' and 'never.' Got it.

Well, Adrian's absent, so I can't deal with her for killing Pharamond. And don't worry, I wasn't planning on bringing down any werewolves who didn't kill Dalish. It's possible that Swiftrunner is the only one whose participation in that can be proven, but that would be better than nothing.



#553
Pasquale1234

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How can the dalish start a new future if humans try to kill them if they stay in one place for too long


By making different choices?

Once the old religious myths, legends, etc. have been dismantled (as mentioned in the post to which you responded), the dalish will find themselves in the unique position of getting (or having) to reinvent themselves.

Squatting on someone else's land is probably never a particularly good choice.
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#554
Steelcan

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By making different choices?

Once the old religious myths, legends, etc. have been dismantled (as mentioned in the post to which you responded), the dalish will find themselves in the unique position of getting (or having) to reinvent themselves.

Squatting on someone else's land is probably never a particularly good choice.

The Dalish are going to be faced with a choice at some point, maybe even with Solas, do they actually learn what the Ancient Elves were like and then support that?  Keep up their own nomadic way of life with no end in sight, or come to an accord with the Andrastians.


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#555
Xilizhra

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Squatting on someone else's land is probably never a particularly good choice.

Tell that to the humans.



#556
Steelcan

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Tell that to the humans.

after the war between the Evanuris, and with Solas coming in, large parts of the world might have well been uninhabited, if you are referring to the Dales, they lost.


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#557
Xilizhra

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after the war between the Evanuris, and with Solas coming in, large parts of the world might have well been uninhabited, if you are referring to the Dales, they lost.

Ah, so it's no longer squatting if you slaughter the population? Good to know; that makes my evil alter ego's idea to cull the human population with magical disease seem much more palatable.



#558
Steelcan

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Ah, so it's no longer squatting if you slaughter the population? Good to know; that makes my evil alter ego's idea to cull the human population with magical disease seem much more palatable.

its no longer squatting if you are the new owner of the land



#559
Hanako Ikezawa

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Ah, so it's no longer squatting if you slaughter the population? Good to know; that makes my evil alter ego's idea to cull the human population with magical disease seem much more palatable.

When the Dales declared war against Orlais, they agreed to the situation where if they lose they could lose their land. That is a reality of war everyone understands. 



#560
Xilizhra

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When the Dales declared war against Orlais, they agreed to the situation where if they lose they could lose their land. That is a reality of war everyone understands. 

Ah, that lovely fantasy mindset in which decisions made by a few aristocrats are expected to be considered binding to the rest of the population. In other words, morally speaking, it's worthless bullshit.

 

its no longer squatting if you are the new owner of the land

So if Solas wins, the elves will own everything.


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#561
Ghost Gal

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When the Dales declared war against Orlais, they agreed to the situation where if they lose they could lose their land. That is a reality of war everyone understands. 

 

No they didn't, Orlais declared war on them over Red Crossing, which happened due to both sides not trusting one another, which was due to border skirmishes born of humans trying to undermine elven autonomy by trying to push their religion and ways onto them. Not to mention Orlais was itching for an excuse to invade them anyway due to Orlais' Imperialist expansion. (Note: The Dales stands between Orlais and Ferelden, and once the Dales fell Orlais eventually moved eastward into Ferelden.)

 

Humans pester and attack elves, but it's the elves' fault for fighting back. Typical troll logic.


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#562
Dean_the_Young

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What compromises?

 

The compromises that come with co-existence with others when you can't get everything you want.

 

 

This is, of course, an entirely separate question from whether the Dalish should want some things at all. Sometimes societies need to change and question things taken for granted just because that's how they always were. To return to the subject- mage Keepers. Why should the Dalish want this? Why shouldn't the Dalish want to change this?

 

You claim the Dalish revere magic, but magic a very small part what the Dalish do and how they live. They aren't a society built around the practice or conduct of magic: they don't enchant, they don't rely on it, it's not a particularly integral part of their religion or modern rituals. The primary place for mages in the clan isn't as magical workhorse to do things no other worker can, but as scholar and leader- two zones that magic is not a requirement for. It's a waste of the magical potential, and a oligarchial dynamic that exists for no reason than 'because that's how we always did so.'

 

That sort of conservatism is no excuse for choosing how to lead a society, particularly when it implicitly improves discrimination on the basis of accidents of birth. This is a bad cultural practice for the Dalish, just as it's a bad cultural practice of the Magisters. The favor of the Creators no more justify a mage oligarchy than the Maker favors the Tevinter Magisters oppression of Tevinter. Reverence for magic no more justifies a mage elite than fear of magic justifies the Saarebas. For the Dalish, it's a practice that's also their own choice, and it's a choice that has real-world implications with relations to the dominant powers surrounding them. Mage-leaders are an additional tension on top of mages themselves with the primary security threat. Mage-leaders are also intrensically biased with their own perspective, conflating their own interests with the interests of The People. A non-mage keeper could have a different perspective, including one where the needs of the many aren't entangled with the needs of the one on top.

 

What occurs from there can still be on the Dalish own terms, and be something other than a capitulation. What 'revering magic' means to them can be something they decide for themselves- without false delimmas of 'Dalish Keepers or Chantry Slaves.' This is the sort of change of thinking the Dalish need if they're going to change their situation rather than hope it changes for them for the better.

 

Of course no one really expects the Keepers to step down or diminish their position for the good of the people- why would they? They not just taught and indoctrinated (and teach and indoctrinate) that it's natural and right that their elven subordinates revere them. It's also in their class interests to keep encouraging the magic-less elves to defer to them. Whether or not it helps lead to the Dalish extinction isn't really how they're addressing their problems in the here-and-now, or else they would have made major changes already.

 

 

Those they have with the city elves? Or those they actually signed with the mages and failed so miserably to uphold? Or even those they also failed to uphold with the Templar order? The Chantry hasn't a good reputation at the time to uphold their compromises. Only a fool will make a compromise with an institution historically known to withhold their promises if things don't go the way they wanted.

 

 

Then fool every serious group in the world be, because they don't demand perfection and historically infallible partners before making deals. Not only are the partners for peace imperfect, but so are your very own Dalish. I could just as well mock any Andrastian advocate of better ties for the Dalish for compromising to xenophobic, racist, murderous, and demons-consorting tribals with bad history skills. These, too, would be accurate discriptions of Dalish behavior across history that could be lobbed at any Andrastian who suggested compromise- and about as fair a generalization.

 

Deals to make the world and improve relations better don't come from the morally pure people who like us and have never hurt or opposed us. If they did, we wouldn't have any reason to improve relations in the first place. And if the Dalish want to do something other than fragment and collapse as an identity, they're going to have to deal with the people and organizations that exist rather than fantasize that they'll somehow outlast them all and inherity the world if they change nothing about themselves.

 

But, well, if you like them being an impoverished people who excel at misery...

 

 

I was going to just roll my eyes and dismiss you outright as a not very serious person, but MisterJB had a good point of your penchant for exageration and sillyness.

 

 

I would also add generalization regarding the temperament of Templars alongside the ridiculous notion that a sole Templar would be dangerous when massively outnumbered and that a Chantry willing to compromise would be sending Alriks to Dalish clans so they can create intercultural accidents.
 

 

I'll admit, I laughed at the last one. Even a cynical, amoral pragmatist would know better.



#563
Dean_the_Young

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Ah, that lovely fantasy mindset in which decisions made by a few aristocrats are expected to be considered binding to the rest of the population. In other words, morally speaking, it's worthless bullshit.

 

And yet, it's one in which you engage in quite often, with your propensity towards authoritarian posturing on social changes and attempting to fix every situation to your desired outcome by picking the 'right' aristocrats and elites, no matter how credible (or wishful) you cast their support base to be.

 

 

 

 

So if Solas wins, the elves will own everything.

 

 

Including most the dead elves.

 

Of course, going on past history, Solas's record for winning is pretty bad, so it'll be more like the Evunaris will own everything, again.



#564
Dean_the_Young

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Ah, so it's no longer squatting if you slaughter the population? Good to know; that makes my evil alter ego's idea to cull the human population with magical disease seem much more palatable.

 

Not really. That not-alter-ego justified it on the basis of cultural contamination, after all. Even the culturally contaminated elves were going to have to die.



#565
Steelcan

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No they didn't, Orlais declared war on them over Red Crossing, which happened due to both sides not trusting one another, which was due to border skirmishes born of humans trying to undermine elven autonomy by trying to push their religion and ways onto them. Not to mention Orlais was itching for an excuse to invade them anyway due to Orlais' Imperialist expansion. (Note: The Dales stands between Orlais and Ferelden, and once the Dales fell Orlais eventually moved eastward into Ferelden.)

 

Humans pester and attack elves, but it's the elves' fault for fighting back. Typical troll logic.

so the Orlesians declared war on them, then decided to lull them into a false sense of security by putting up little resistance as the elves marched through the countryside to burn Val Royeaux?

 

More likely following the destruction of Red Crossing the Elves poured over the border and Orlais declaration of war was simply understood.  The Eves have offered up no proof of other causes of the war, so we are forced to assume that Red Crossing was the end of the "border friction" and start of the war proper.  And seeing as how the Orlesians were in no way prepared its not really likely that they started it.


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#566
Steelcan

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Ah, that lovely fantasy mindset in which decisions made by a few aristocrats are expected to be considered binding to the rest of the population. In other words, morally speaking, it's worthless bullshit.

 

Through the social contract that feudalism puts forth, yes.



#567
ShadowLordXII

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so the Orlesians declared war on them, then decided to lull them into a false sense of security by putting up little resistance as the elves marched through the countryside to burn Val Royeaux?

 

More likely following the destruction of Red Crossing the Elves poured over the border and Orlais declaration of war was simply understood.  The Elves have offered up no proof of other causes of the war, so we are forced to assume that Red Crossing was the end of the "border friction" and start of the war proper.  And seeing as how the Orlesians were in no way prepared its not really likely that they started it.

 

Right because Orlais and the Chantry in no way has any responsibility for the political, cultural and religious pressure breathed down the Dales' back for many generations prior to Red Crossing. Proof of this lies in Orlais' expansionist policy at the time and at many points later in history as well as the Chantry's stated belief that "everyone in the four corners of the earth" must adhere to the Chant.


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#568
KaiserShep

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That would be a viable defense for their actions before the Lady of the Forest restored their minds, yes. Not after.

 

 

Thinking about this, if some angsty elf cursed me and turned me into a werewolf because some dude long dead hurt his now-ancient family, I'd probably maul his little clan day and night to pass the time, because why not? He should've turned me into something that couldn't maul the living snot out of his tribe, like a pigeon. Then he'd just have to deal with his dome being whitewashed all day. 


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#569
Steelcan

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Right because Orlais and the Chantry in no way has any responsibility for the political, cultural and religious pressure breathed down the Dales' back for many generations prior to Red Crossing. Proof of this lies in Orlais' expansionist policy at the time and at many points later in history as well as the Chantry's stated belief that "everyone in the four corners of the earth" must adhere to the Chant.

Ok?  So that relates to an elven invasion how?

 

We know that at first the war was decidedly in favor of the Elves as they carved a path to Val Royeaux, so we can assume that the elves were winning in the field, they even took Val Royeaux itself until any serious counterattack seems to have worked.  From this we can assume a few things.  The Orlesian troops at the border and the areas behind it were unprepared for conflict or were overwhelmed.  Meaning they either were not expecting an invasion, or their troops that were stationed were insufficient.  Had they been planning an invasion all along they would have had more troops along the border, enough to halt and turn the elven attack back almost immediately since even a crippled Orlais was able to turn the war around in the end (even once the Exalted March was called only Orlais supplied troops). 

 

So there is no reason to think that the Orlesians had large numbers of troops already on the border, suggesting that they were not preparing an invasion, or even that the border tensions were all that serious (or that the elven attack was too fast and powerful for the troops to fight them back in which case it must be asked how the advance was stopped at all).


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#570
Jedi Master of Orion

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It could simply be that their standing armies at the time were defeated because they were less well trained, or less motivated or tactically outmaneuvered or something. And by the time the Divine called for an Exalted March they began to overwhelm the elves with more numbers. Even with the reinforcements from the Mages, Templars and other faithful who answered the call to fight, it took Orlais 10 years to defeat the Dales, during which there were "many elven victories."



#571
Steelcan

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It could simply be that their standing armies at the time were defeated because they were less well trained, or less motivated or tactically outmaneuvered or something. And by the time the Divine called for an Exalted March they began to overwhelm the elves with more numbers. Even with the reinforcements from the Mages, Templars and other faithful who answered the call to fight, it took Orlais 10 years to defeat the Dales, during which there were "many elven victories."

That's unlikely though.  The damage to Orlais's total troops numbers had to have been minimal if they were able to prosecute the war for so long afterwards.  Even with the reinforcements of Templars and Mages they cannot have amounted to tens of thousands of soldiers to replace the hypothetical entire armies lost in the opening days of the war.  Orlais already had an expansionist streak at this point so its unlikely their troops lacked training or equipment, and they certainly wouldn't have if they were indeed planning an invasion of the Dales.

 

 

Well I suppose its possible that the Orlesians could have had troop numbers so ridiculously higher than the elves that they could eat these losses and be no worse for the wear, but I'd be surprised if they had 3x the numbers of soldiers of the elves.  The elven commanders would have otherwise known that an invasion would have been doomed, or maybe they figured that their elan and warrior spirit would carry the day over numbers, supplies, and whatnot.  This is possible, but given the other points I've raised I find it unlikely.


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#572
The Hierophant

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Wasn't Orlais still recovering from the Second Blight?



#573
KaiserShep

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Wasn't Orlais still recovering from the Second Blight?

 

 

Yeah, in which the elves were ever unhelpful by staying out of it. 



#574
Steelcan

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Wasn't Orlais still recovering from the Second Blight?

even more evidence!



#575
The Hierophant

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Yeah, in which the elves were ever unhelpful by staying out of it. 

 

 

even more evidence!

Mind you that was a 90 year war. It took Ferelden nearly a decade to recover after only one year.