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Bioware's Favoritism Towards Andrastianism


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#576
ShadowLordXII

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Ok?  So that relates to an elven invasion how?

 

The invasion was a response to hundreds of years of Orlesian and Chantry hostility and aggression (as I pointed out earlier) fueled by irreconcilable political, cultural and religious motivations. Acting like these tensions are irrelevant is short-sighted as they're important to why tensions escalated to the point of war.

 

The invasion never would have had to happen if Orlais/Chantry had left the Dales alone, but based on well-known and documented Orlesian expanionist ambitions (ie, Drakon wiping out rival Andrastian faiths to prop up the Chantry he largely created; Conquering land like the Free Marches, Ferelden and the Anderfels; and the fact that the Dales were stripped from the elves rather than forcing the elves to pay a hefty reparations) and Chantry core beliefs (namely that all peoples in the four corners must sing the Chant for the Maker to care about the world again), that was unlikely to happen.


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#577
Jedi Master of Orion

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It's pretty hard to imagine an expansionist Empire like Orlais not having any forces ready to defend it's own heartland, especially from a neighbor that it had at least four years of borders tensions with. Montsimmard was a major strategic city in it's own right, not some random backwater on the way to Val Royeaux. Even back then, Orlais was larger and much more populated than the Dales, they would be able to sustain casualties that the elves were not.



#578
Steelcan

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I'd really like to know what turned the tide, how did the Elves screw up so magnificently that even a Bight weakened enemy that they were decisively beating in the field and whose capital they had taken was able to turn the war around and wholly destroy their state? 



#579
Hanako Ikezawa

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I'd really like to know what turned the tide, how did the Elves screw up so magnificently that even a Bight weakened enemy that they were decisively beating in the field and whose capital they had taken was able to turn the war around and wholly destroy their state? 

They found Solas in the Fade and asked him for advice. :P

But yeah, I'm curious about that as well. However since we are moving north chances are that will be a question that remains unanswered. 


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#580
ShadowLordXII

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Yeah, in which the elves were ever unhelpful by staying out of it. 

 

The Tale of Iloren proves false this assertion.

 

It's clear that there was at least one Dalish clan fighting the darkspawn in the Anderfels during the Second Blight.

 

Furthermore, the alleged presence of an elven army at Montsimmond suggests that the elves did initially send help, but the commander judged the situation to be hopeless when his army arrived and withdrew to guard the border and his own people rather than have his people die for nothing.

 

And Orlais pulled the same tactic in the Fifth Blight. When they were not allowed to enter Ferelden due to Loghain's regency, the Orlesians and accompanying Grey Wardens stayed to protect the border rather than enter untenable ground in face of Ferelden's civil war and near unchecked advance of the darkspawn.


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#581
Steelcan

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The invasion was a response to hundreds of years of Orlesian and Chantry hostility and aggression (as I pointed out earlier) fueled by irreconcilable political, cultural and religious motivations. Acting like these tensions are irrelevant is short-sighted as they're important to why tensions escalated to the point of war.

 

The invasion never would have had to happen if Orlais/Chantry had left the Dales alone, but based on well-known and documented Orlesian expanionist ambitions (ie, Drakon wiping out rival Andrastian faiths to prop up the Chantry he largely created; Conquering land like the Free Marches, Ferelden and the Anderfels; and the fact that the Dales were stripped from the elves rather than forcing the elves to pay a hefty reparations) and Chantry core beliefs (namely that all peoples in the four corners must sing the Chant for the Maker to care about the world again), that was unlikely to happen.

And yet we know that even the prime expansionist himself Drakon, favored at the very least quiet relations with the elves.  Do you have any evidence that he favored attacking them or that he carried out campaigns against them?  So the precendent in terms of Dalish/Orlesian relations was at least somewhat peaceful. 

 

The only evidence we have that there was a Chantry presence in the Dales that contributed to hostilities would be the murder of the converted Emerad Knight and his lover.  There is no evidence of mass movement of missionaries, at least not one that can be verified in game. 

 

 

The invasion woud never have happened if the elves hadn't invaded.  Full Stop.  If the war was a pre-emptive attack on a potential future enemy then it would explain the elven success, but they would have no moral standing on it.  There were no indications that the Orlesians were preparing to invade as I've pointed out.  So "sure we invaded their land, killed their people, and burned their cities and farms, and there's no reason to think they were about to attack us, but they did it also a while ago!" isn't a very good defense, especially in the aftermath of a Blight, that the elves sat out.

 

As for the reparations issue, why didn't the Soviets just stop and ask for money from the Reich instead of going all the way to Berlin?  Because that would have been stupid.


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#582
Hanako Ikezawa

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The Tale of Iloren proves false this assertion.

 

It's clear that there was at least one Dalish clan fighting the darkspawn in the Anderfels during the Second Blight.

 

Furthermore, the alleged presence of an elven army at Montsimmond suggests that the elves did initially send help, but the commander judged the situation to be hopeless when his army arrived and withdrew to guard the border and his own people rather than have his people die for nothing.

 

And Orlais pulled the same tactic in the Fifth Blight. When they were not allowed to enter Ferelden due to Loghain's regency, the Orlesians and accompanying Grey Wardens stayed to protect the border rather than enter untenable ground in face of Ferelden's civil war and near unchecked advance of the darkspawn.

So as they said, the Dales did not help Orlais against the Second Blight. 

 

The situation with the Fifth Blight is different, since in that case the nation beseiged with the Blight didn't want help and threatened to fight the aiding forces if they pressed the issue. To be comparable it would have to be that when the Dales came to help Orlais, Orlais turned them away which is not the case. 



#583
Steelcan

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The Tale of Iloren proves false this assertion.

 

It's clear that there was at least one Dalish clan fighting the darkspawn in the Anderfels during the Second Blight.

 

Furthermore, the alleged presence of an elven army at Montsimmond suggests that the elves did initially send help, but the commander judged the situation to be hopeless when his army arrived and withdrew to guard the border and his own people rather than have his people die for nothing.

 

And Orlais pulled the same tactic in the Fifth Blight. When they were not allowed to enter Ferelden due to Loghain's regency, the Orlesians and accompanying Grey Wardens stayed to protect the border rather than enter untenable ground in face of Ferelden's civil war and near unchecked advance of the darkspawn.

The Dales had not fallen, why would there be a Dalish clan in the Anderfels at all?  I suspect this tale is wrong.

 

Or the Elvish commander sat back and let them be destroyed out of spite.  Both options are possible.



#584
Illegitimus

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The Tale of Iloren proves false this assertion.

 

It's clear that there was at least one Dalish clan fighting the darkspawn in the Anderfels during the Second Blight.

 

Furthermore, the alleged presence of an elven army at Montsimmond suggests that the elves did initially send help, but the commander judged the situation to be hopeless when his army arrived and withdrew to guard the border and his own people rather than have his people die for nothing.

 

And Orlais pulled the same tactic in the Fifth Blight. When they were not allowed to enter Ferelden due to Loghain's regency, the Orlesians and accompanying Grey Wardens stayed to protect the border rather than enter untenable ground in face of Ferelden's civil war and near unchecked advance of the darkspawn.

 

The Tale of Iloren proves no such thing. -As described, Iloren's clan only engaged the Darkspawn on one isolated occasion because their efforts to run away had been frustrated.  That's not at all the same thing as coming to the aid of the Gray Warden allies.  Also the presence of the elven army suggests nothing except that they were guarding their own border.  



#585
ShadowLordXII

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And yet we know that even the prime expansionist himself Drakon, favored at the very least quiet relations with the elves.  Do you have any evidence that he favored attacking them or that he carried out campaigns against them?  So the precendent in terms of Dalish/Orlesian relations was at least somewhat peaceful. 

 

The only evidence we have that there was a Chantry presence in the Dales that contributed to hostilities would be the murder of the converted Emerad Knight and his lover.  There is no evidence of mass movement of missionaries, at least not one that can be verified in game. 

 

 

The invasion woud never have happened if the elves hadn't invaded.  Full Stop.  If the war was a pre-emptive attack on a potential future enemy then it would explain the elven success, but they would have no moral standing on it.  There were no indications that the Orlesians were preparing to invade as I've pointed out.  So "sure we invaded their land, killed their people, and burned their cities and farms, and there's no reason to think they were about to attack us, but they did it also a while ago!" isn't a very good defense, especially in the aftermath of a Blight, that the elves sat out.

 

As for the reparations issue, why didn't the Soviets just stop and ask for money from the Reich instead of going all the way to Berlin?  Because that would have been stupid.

 

Did Drakon offer any indication that this was not merely biding his time? We know for a fact that he launched aggressive campaigns that conquered much of Thedas including modern-day Ferelden, much of the Free Marches, Nevarra and the Anderfels. In fact, its inferred that Drakon's ambitions were confounded by the Dales' isolationism. Furthermore, Drakon's son, Kordillus Drakon II, was of a clearly different opinion despite his father's friendship with Inquisitor Ameridan.

 

War was inevitable when Chantry and Orlesian beliefs/ambitions contradict any notion of the Dales being able to exist as it's own culture and religion. Period. Tensions would not have escalated to the point of invasion and war if the Dales were left alone. I'm not condoning the Invasion and in hindsight, it looks like the elves overextended themselves. I'm merely pointing out the truth that the fuel behind the war had been building for years and most of that fuel was put their by Chantry/Orlais breathing down the Dales' back.

 

And considering that the elves of the Dales just got out from hundreds of years of slavery and cultural deprivation after their first homeland was wiped out by aggressive human neighbors (Tevinter), I can't blame the Dales for not backing down and trying to keep history from repeating itself.

 

For all we know, the Dales simply had an advantage in momentum and winning the right battles up until the Exalted March counterattack took the tide away from them. There's no proof that the Orlesians were helplessly caught off guard and innocent of aggressive intent. Simply that the Elves were initially winning the war for a time.

 

Germany still exists today and it's people were not displaced and stripped of their culture despite a brutal occupation by Russia. The German people have not been rendered down into wandering exiles or second-class citizens scattered across the world in perpetual poverty.

 

So as they said, the Dales did not help Orlais against the Second Blight. 

 

The situation with the Fifth Blight is different, since in that case the nation beseiged with the Blight didn't want help and threatened to fight the aiding forces if they pressed the issue. To be comparable it would have to be that when the Dales came to help Orlais, Orlais turned them away which is not the case. 

 

I was answering a comment that the elves were completely unhelpful and the tale I brought up suggests otherwise. Don't move the goalposts. Also, the Anderfels saw some of the worst of the Blight's madness, so the presence of at least one elf clan fighting the darkspawn there cannot be dismissed.

 

It's still a potential case of one sovereign nation initially choosing to help another and then changing it's mind when the costs outweighed the gains. Also, I'd point out that there's no record of Orlais formally asking the Dales for help. AKA, the elves were under no obligation to help them if they weren't asked to help even if an alliance existed as inferred by Ameridan's memories. On the other hand, Cailan formally asked Orlais for aid and despite this, Orlais didn't fight too hard to help Ferelden when it seemed that Ferelden was content with letting itself burn.

 

Still, it is possible that the elf army did nothing out of spite. It's still equally possible that they saw that they couldn't do anything to help. More proof and confirmation that there was an army at Montsimmond will be needed to know for certain.


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#586
Illegitimus

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The Dales had not fallen, why would there be a Dalish clan in the Anderfels at all?  I suspect this tale is wrong.

 

Or the Elvish commander sat back and let them be destroyed out of spite.  Both options are possible.

 

Iloren's clan may not have been "Dalish" at all.  They would have been on the opposite side of the continent from the Dales, beyond the fringes of the old Tevinter Empire.  They could have been a clan founded by Tevinter runaways to the north who had nothing to do with Andraste's rebellion and the founding of the Dales, but remembered as Dalish because they were the prototype for the modern Dalish lifestyle.  In which case of course, the treaty against the Blights would have had nothing to do with them.  



#587
Jedi Master of Orion

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Actually until the Second Blight the Anderfels was still a Tevinter province.



#588
Shechinah

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On the other hand, Cailan formally asked Orlais for aid and despite this, Orlais didn't fight too hard to help Ferelden when it seemed that Ferelden was content with letting itself burn.

 

 

A small note to this before I have to go; as far as I can remember, Orlais did send reinforcements including Grey Wardens to Fereldan but the forces were turned away at the border presumably on Loghain's orders since this seems to have taken place after Ostagar. I believe it is Riordan who reveals this in Arl Howe's dungeon when he and the Warden with their party encounter him although it may be depending on what dialogue option is selected.


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#589
Obsidian Gryphon

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History can be rewritten by the ones who wrote it, tales can be changed by the ones who tell it, changing and morphing from what was. There is no basis to effectively engrave the past of Southern Thedas in stone except for the ones who lived it.



#590
Vit246

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Since we're on the subject on nations and armies not helping each other in a Blight, it could be argued Orlais kinda did the same. Third Blight, while darkspawn were ravaging the Free Marches, Orlais did nothing and preferred to prioritize its own territory. It required the political pressure of an external influence called Grey Wardens to move their butts. Fourth Blight, Tevinter refused to send aid to any nation, and Orlais only allowed a token force. 


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#591
Gervaise

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According to Bioware's latest on-line source book, Drakon's aid to the Anderfels was not as noble as it might appear.   The reason his army was up north at all was that he was hoping to capitalise on Tevinter's weakness through the 2nd Blight but then likely saw an opportunity when the Grey Wardens begged his help for the Anderfels and turned aside.   This proved a good move because not only did the grateful Anders convert to his faith but he also claimed the Anderfels as part of his Empire.   Some 30 odd years later, whilst the 2nd Blight was still raging, the people of the Anderfels decided they didn't want to be part of Orlais anymore and declared their independence.  May be they didn't like the attitude of Drakon's son or thought that it had been a pretty shabby trick taking them over as part of the fight against the darkspawn.

 

Both Orlais and Tevinter, the two most powerful nations in Thedas have had a pretty checkered history with helping people against the Blight.   During the 3rd Blight they both took advantage of the Marcher States by occupying them under the pretence of saving them from the darkspawn.    During the 4th Blight Tevinter refused to send any aid at all (presumably they couldn't see any benefit to themselves in doing so) and Orlais only sent token assistance.  

 

Yet the elves of the Dales are meant to be damned for not helping during the 2nd Blight when it is equally possible that they tried but arrived too late.   Montsimmard lies way out of the Dales, so it is odd the elven army would be there at all if they weren't intent on helping.   Everywhere was afflicted by the Blight.   The darkspawn were appearing in Ferelden, so it is equally possible they were appearing in the Dales and the elves were largely engaged in combatting them there.     The presence of Dalish in the Anderfels in the story about Iloren would suggest that they did send some aid.   Likely these were allies of Ameridan and were keeping his promise to Drakon.     The source book quoted above, has a passage that specifically states it is suspicious that the only account we have of the non-assistance by the Dalish during the Blight comes from their enemies.   More likely there were groups that helped, even if it wasn't an official army, but like every other instance of elves working co-operatively with their human neighbours it was wiped from history by the Chantry for political reasons.    Iloren and his clan can simply be added to Shartan and Ameridan, as elves who were treated shabbily by Chantry scholars, who for much of the time have been in charge of official history. 

 

I imagine the only reason they couldn't remove Garahel's name from the records is because he was too prominent a figure, he was a hero to the people of the Freemarches and the Grey Wardens knew the truth.   Plus of course he was a city elf, not a Dalish.   Not that his efforts improved the lives for the city elves at all after the 4th Blight.    If nothing else he was a glaring example of how the short sided human rulers were wasting the potential sitting right under their noses.  That of course was Celene's motivation for helping the elves, it would make her rule more successful, not that she actually cared about their conditions.   Still, a selfish ruler improving their lives for the sake of herself is better than no action at all.

 

The daft part is, if I was trying for political propaganda concerning the elves, instead of eliminating references to friendly elves, I would be highlighting them, to show how previous rulers have valued their contribution and would be only too happy to do so again.    If they had done this and the Dalish still sat out in the woods and refused to compromise, then you would have a valid criticism.    The thing is, while we as players only discover about these bits of history in dribs and drabs, they would actually be known to the Dalish.    They know about Shartan working with Andraste.   They know about Ameridan.   They know about Illoren.    Yet they are also aware that the Chantry denies their existence and keeps the elves that did surrender to Chantry rule in squalid little compounds where they are subject to constant abuse and mistreatment.    That doesn't send a very positive message about the benefits of surrendering to human cultural rule.

 

So the problem my Lavellan is currently grappling with is that the past is no longer something he wants to recover.   This makes life simple when deciding where he stands on the Solas issue, he utterly opposes him.    However, he still feels that the basic values of his society, based on their erroneous view of what the gods were like, is actually superior than anything else he has encountered.    If the Evanuris were tyrants, then Tevinter are simply a rather inglorious and lesser imitation of them.   Orlais is no better for whilst they don't have mage rulers, they have utterly corrupt nobility who care for nothing other than playing their Game.     The Chantry, who based on the mortality of their own Chant, ought to be outright condemning them, instead reinforce the status quo with their ideas of Divine Right of inheritance.   Any respect he might have had for the Chantry was done away with when he was encouraged to outright lie about the truth of his acquisition of the anchor.  This extends even to those people who were his allies and one of whom might now be Divine.  

 

Having had the opportunity to study at close hand how the various rulers of Thedas in the south conduct themselves and their political systems he rejects them all.   He also rejects Tevinter and the Qun.    He hasn't yet had the opportunity to visit Rivain so he is withholding judgement on their social system.    Wycome was a glorious experiment that he would like to replicate but that was only achieved with the backing of the might of the Inquisition and the on going support of the current Viscount of Kirkwall.   It was also necessary to eliminate the ruling elite to bring this about.    So really they just hit lucky.  I wouldn't be surprised if it is discovered it fell by the wayside in the future because that is what happened in Ferelden with both the Dalish and the city elf boon.

 

So as an elf who wants to do the best for his people, both Dalish and city, and wants to build a future for them that neither clings to false gods, forces them to follow a faith he doesn't believe in (the Chantry) or compels them to endure the corrupt systems of government that keep them forever in the gutter, please tell me, what exactly are his options other than establish a settlement in the Arbor Wilds and hope Orlais doesn't try and annex it or find some other out of the way place that they can call their own?   Incidentally, he is not a mage.


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#592
Inkvisiittori

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So I guess I should be glad that my City Elf Warden chose to have the werewolves wipe out the Dalish.

 

What I meant (by that quote specifically) is that Zathrian - who we get to know better and who's story we learn - is a more sympathetic character than the faceless werewolf hordes we kill. If the game had given us a chance to get to know Swiftrunner and rest of the pack better, then maybe the choice between Zathrian and the werewolves had been more difficult (like the choice between quarians vs geth, Tali vs Legion). As it is the werewolves are just mindless beasts controlled by a demon (from the Warden's POV). 



#593
Ieldra

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So who knows what form the Maker might take, if he was ever to be revealed?

They said they won't do that. Which means Andrastianism stays a potentially valid religion while all others have been revealed as frauds as their objects of veneration have been revealed as mundane. Again, my point stands.


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#594
Ieldra

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By making compromises and working on creating conditions where humans won't try to kill them if they stay in one place too long. They've done it in Rivaini, and there are absolutely things they could change about themselves that would make co-location far easier.

 

We know that the primary reasons they get chased off at an institutional level- and that's really all it is, a shooing rather than a deliberate attempt to hunt and kill- in a lot of places is because of their deliberate choice of mage policy. If they didn't insist on mageocracy and simply let mundanes be their history-keepers and leaders, the Templars wouldn't give a damn and the Chantry would only care in so much that bushwhacking occurs. Not bushwhacking humans is easy- it takes more effort to do than not to do- and compromises could be made about what happens to their mages.

 

There's actually a number of compromises that could be done. Might a Dalish clans in a Kingdom simply refuse to have any mages, and trade them to other clans to be someone other kingdom's problem? They could easily turn over mages to the Circles for training and safeguarding and Templar goodwill, with a possible negotiation of those mages being allowed to keep Dalish lore/visit Dalish clans and regularly interact. Or, if the Dalish clan was really convincing and credible and committed to a nomadic way of life, perhaps they could negotiate to bring the Templar oversight in- that a Templar maintains nominal oversight, and walks with the clan, and can mediate conflicts with human villagers.

That's not compromise, that's complete cultural surrender. You're asking the Dalish to give up one of their few cultural traditions all clans we've seen so far have in common - and what does the other side give for that?


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#595
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When they killed Zathrian's children they also destroyed any future children they might have had - thus ending far more than just one life. This could be Zathrian's justification for cursing all their descendants.

It will not make the perpetrators suffer any more, but it might help Zathrian cope with the pain his children's death has brought him.

If you side with Zathrian and help him destroy the Lady and her werewolves it is over, either way... I don't know if he even then will be ever able to forgive or forget. Would it help him at all to try to make him see the light and make peace with the descendants of those who murdered his family? Maybe... or maybe it is just far too late.

The blood of those dalish elves who were killed by these werewolves is on Zathrian's hands. I wonder what that makes him feel? Does he feel horrible remorse or is he still too blinded by his lust for revenge to care? Perhaps both.


That's insane. Killing children doesn't for example justify sterilizing you. It absolutely does not justify killing your children, who are innocent, or killing your children's children. It certainly doesn't justify torturing them. It absolutely does not justify torturing them by to rising them into monsters that might hurt innocents in the future! Zathrian is an absolute monster.

But beyond that, Zathrian is the vilest form of traitor to the Dalish, and propagates a virulent racist myth. He knows he is "immortal" because of the magic he cast. Yet he lies to the Dalish about what makes him immortal. He willingly spreads a racist myth about humans. He actively destroys the chance the Dalish might learn the truth about Elvhenan by streaming this lie about his life.

Probably the most evil character we get in the setting apart from Loghain who isn't just an evil caricature.

#596
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"One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic."


Did you just unironically quote Stalin?
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#597
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Right because Orlais and the Chantry in no way has any responsibility for the political, cultural and religious pressure breathed down the Dales' back for many generations prior to Red Crossing. Proof of this lies in Orlais' expansionist policy at the time and at many points later in history as well as the Chantry's stated belief that "everyone in the four corners of the earth" must adhere to the Chant.

This is nonsense. The Red Crossing wasn't an official act of the Dalish government. A Dalish military unit went completely rogue and perpetrated a massacre. We know from Ameridan there were Dalish hardliners who wanted to draw up an iron curtain with Orlais, but we don't know much about the nature of the complete diplomatic picture on both sides. We know there were ostensibly border skirmishes but from the Red Crossing codex it sounds like it happens at the local village level, not fully sanctioned by Orlais. It could be like WWI and Germany.

And then a Dalish military unit goes rogue and commits some war crimes to engage in an extra territorial and unsanctioned hunt for one of their deserters. Ask yourself what would happen IRL if the Russian special forces massacred a small town in the US while hunting a desserter and having gone totally rogue. The only way we avoid WWIIII is thanks to diplomatic channels unique to modern society.

#598
Inkvisiittori

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That's insane. Killing children doesn't for example justify sterilizing you. It absolutely does not justify killing your children, who are innocent, or killing your children's children. It certainly doesn't justify torturing them. It absolutely does not justify torturing them by to rising them into monsters that might hurt innocents in the future! Zathrian is an absolute monster.

But beyond that, Zathrian is the vilest form of traitor to the Dalish, and propagates a virulent racist myth. He knows he is "immortal" because of the magic he cast. Yet he lies to the Dalish about what makes him immortal. He willingly spreads a racist myth about humans. He actively destroys the chance the Dalish might learn the truth about Elvhenan by streaming this lie about his life.

Probably the most evil character we get in the setting apart from Loghain who isn't just an evil caricature.

 

I don't think Zathrian is a monster or even insane. Did he seem like a madman to you? He was just deeply hurt by those people and is unable to let go of his anger. From Zathrian point of view this is justification enough - I don't know if he wants to see them suffer or what his reasons are, but he clearly doesn't want to let the curse end (or he would have done so long ago or at least when the werewolves started to kill his people). 

 

What do you mean he lied?



#599
Inkvisiittori

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Did you just unironically quote Stalin?

 

Who said it first is irrelevant.



#600
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I don't think Zathrian is a monster or even insane. Did he seem like a madman to you? He was just deeply hurt by those people and is unable to let go of his anger. From Zathrian point of view this is justification enough - I don't know if he wants to see them suffer or what his reasons are, but he clearly doesn't want to let the curse end (or he would have done so long ago or at least when the werewolves started to kill his people).

What do you mean he lied?


He's absolutely a madman. Apart from the fact that he's willing to risk dooming Ferelden for the sake of sating his vengeance by killing the only two Grey Wardens in Fereldan, he's maliciously cursed generations of innocents as a result of his bloodlust. It's hard to imagine something worse than doesn't cross into the realm of outright caricature.

From Stalin's point of view, the mass murder of millions is A-OK. From the point of view of someone unfortunately afflicted with mental illness, I might be the King of England. Ridiculous subjective perception doesn't mean anything. It's why crimes don't depend on the force of how justified you feel you are in committing them.

And I explain the lie: Zathrian's perpetuating a racist myth about the source of elven immortality. There's no reason or purpose for him to lie - it just feeds his racism. And it's contrary to his duties as a keeper, at least if we see them as actually preserving the truth of the history of the elvhen and recovery of lost knowledge from Elvhenan.
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