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[Iakus]

They said they won't do that. Which means Andrastianism stays a potentially valid religion while all others have been revealed as frauds as their objects of veneration have been revealed as mundane. Again, my point stands.

But Andrastrianism has already been undercut.

 

The Maker did not create the Veil.

The Maker did not curse the magisters who stormed the Black City.  He never even met them, he was already gone.

There is strong, albeit circumstantial evidence that Andraste was in fact a mage (and possibly an abomination, or at least possessed) and took advantage of natural phenomena to bolster her cause.

 

Besides which, is Solas less worthy of veneration because he's "just an elf?"  He's still a phenomenally powerful being, everything the Dalish aspire to be and more.

 

Is Hakkon, or Korth unworthy of Avvar worship because they are "Just Fade spirits?"

 

Again, as Morrigan said "What is a god?"  Clearly in Thedas it's not an old man with a long white beard sitting on a cloud.  THedas's deities appear to be a study in Our Gods are Different

[KaiserShep]

But Andrastrianism has already been undercut.

 

The Maker did not create the Veil.

The Maker did not curse the magisters who stormed the Black City.  He never even met them, he was already gone.

There is strong, albeit circumstantial evidence that Andraste was in fact a mage (and possibly an abomination, or at least possessed) and took advantage of natural phenomena to bolster her cause.

 

 

 

The fact that these things are hearsay and/or circumstantial are more than enough to leave Andrastianism perfectly intact. I mean, the black city thing is pretty much revealed by no one but a corrupted evil monster, so obviously no one is going to really give that a good long think. Heck, real life studies do little to nothing to affect actual religious beliefs. 

[KumoriYami]

Well, I'm just going to say. Yes. Bioware certainly favours Andrastianism. If you're a Dalish elf, you come off ignorant to your own beliefs (even if they're presumably wrong as of now), and if you're a Dwarf, you hardly mention the Stone. Regardless of your race in Inquisition, you magically seem knowledgably about the Chant and Andraste despite how most races aside from human don't exactly have the same beliefs in the Maker that humans seem to have.

[Iakus]

The fact that these things are hearsay and/or circumstantial are more than enough to leave Andrastianism perfectly intact. I mean, the black city thing is pretty much revealed by no one but a corrupted evil monster, so obviously no one is going to really give that a good long think. Heck, real life studies do little to nothing to affect actual religious beliefs. 

By that same logic, though, Dalish Creator worship is still intact despite the revelation of Solas and Flemeth as Fen'Harel and Mythal.  Because no one is going to take such claims seriously. 

[SgtSteel91]

By that same logic, though, Dalish Creator worship is still intact despite the revelation of Solas and Flemeth as Fen'Harel and Mythal. Because no one is going to take such claims seriously.

Who in the game doesn't take their claims seriously, except possibly your player character?

[Donquijote and 59 others]

But Andrastrianism has already been undercut.

 

The Maker did not create the Veil.

The Maker did not curse the magisters who stormed the Black City.  He never even met them, he was already gone.

There is strong, albeit circumstantial evidence that Andraste was in fact a mage (and possibly an abomination, or at least possessed) and took advantage of natural phenomena to bolster her cause.

 

Besides which, is Solas less worthy of veneration because he's "just an elf?"  He's still a phenomenally powerful being, everything the Dalish aspire to be and more.

 

Is Hakkon, or Korth unworthy of Avvar worship because they are "Just Fade spirits?"

 

Again, as Morrigan said "What is a god?"  Clearly in Thedas it's not an old man with a long white beard sitting on a cloud.  THedas's deities appear to be a study in Our Gods are Different

Basically you're just saying that the Maker is not guilty for any of these things and that they are all mistakes made by mortals.

Morrigan's definition of god doesn't make sense because is based on a total lack of theoretic knowledge about philosophy and metaphysics for  her they are just being with power which is just a juvenile definition.

 

Solas and the Evanuris are more  powerful than most mortals but they are not  gods  for the standards of a monotheistic and pantheistic view and i would dare to say that they are not even gods for the polytheistic standards,since they are not so above the others mages like the greek gods with mortals

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Heck, real life studies do little to nothing to affect actual religious beliefs. 

Real life studies can't disprove something that cannot be disproved.

[Illegitimus]

 

Basically you're just saying that the Maker is not guilty for any of these things and that they are all mistakes made by mortals.

Morrigan's definition of god doesn't make sense because is based on a total lack of theoretic knowledge about philosophy and metaphysics for  her they are just being with power which is just a juvenile definition.

 

Solas and the Evanuris are more  powerful than most mortals but they are not  gods  for the standards of a monotheistic and pantheistic view and i would dare to say that they are not even gods for the polytheistic standards,since they are not so above the others mages like the greek gods with mortals

 

 

<snort>  You vastly underestimate the power range of deities in Greek mythology and others as well as overlooking the fact that we have only seen Solas and Mythal after they've been reduced to a mere fraction of their power level when Mythal was worshipped as a goddess and they slew beings who made and destroyed mountain ranges.  

[Iakus]

 

Basically you're just saying that the Maker is not guilty for any of these things and that they are all mistakes made by mortals.

Morrigan's definition of god doesn't make sense because is based on a total lack of theoretic knowledge about philosophy and metaphysics for  her they are just being with power which is just a juvenile definition.

 

Solas and the Evanuris are more  powerful than most mortals but they are not  gods  for the standards of a monotheistic and pantheistic view and i would dare to say that they are not even gods for the polytheistic standards,since they are not so above the others mages like the greek gods with mortals

 

Wait, not guilty of what exactly?

 

How would you define a god in a way that excludes the Evanuris, the Old Gods, the Titans, and the Avvar gods, yet still includes the Maker?

[SgtSteel91]

Wait, not guilty of what exactly?

 

How would you define a god in a way that excludes the Evanuris, the Old Gods, the Titans, and the Avvar gods, yet still includes the Maker?

 

The way real life God is, which is how the Maker is being portrayed and supported by most of the npcs.

[Paul E Dangerously]

Honestly, you could even pretty much say that DA as a whole runs on "Everything you believe is wrong". Mainly because damn near everything has basically been through the telephone game, and isn't even close to the original sources.

 

The dwarves know more about themselves than anyone, thanks to the Shaperate, and even what they know is flawed. Deletions from the Memories, records lost in overrun thaigs, etc.

[Iakus]

The way real life God is, which is how the Maker is being portrayed and supported by most of the npcs.

 

The Maker has not made his presence felt in at least a thousand years.

 

The Chantry portrays the Maker in ways that resemble the Judeo-Christian God.  But that is their own interpretation.  DAI is interesting in that its codex list a number of other interpretations of Andraste and the Maker.  Some of which continue into the Dragon Age.  HEck even the views between the northern and southern Chantries are significant.

[Addictress]

 

Basically you're just saying that the Maker is not guilty for any of these things and that they are all mistakes made by mortals.

Morrigan's definition of god doesn't make sense because is based on a total lack of theoretic knowledge about philosophy and metaphysics for  her they are just being with power which is just a juvenile definition.

 

Solas and the Evanuris are more  powerful than most mortals but they are not  gods  for the standards of a monotheistic and pantheistic view and i would dare to say that they are not even gods for the polytheistic standards,since they are not so above the others mages like the greek gods with mortals

 

The Evanuris are exactly like the Greek gods compared to mortals. They're immortal and shaped reality as the people in Thedas understand it.

[Ieldra]

The way real life God is, which is how the Maker is being portrayed and supported by most of the npcs.

Any real god would be indistinguishable from a super-powered mage. Any entity who came out proclaiming he's the Maker would be incapable of proving it. So really, from the perspective of an observer, there are only super-powered mages like the Evanuris. There is no meaningful definition of "god" that can be reality-checked.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

You vastly underestimate the power range of deities in Greek mythology and others as well as overlooking the fact that we have only seen Solas and Mythal after they've been reduced to a mere fraction of their power level when Mythal was worshipped as a goddess and they slew beings who made and destroyed mountain ranges.  

Solas and Mythal being lesser beings in a world with the veil is a non issue for my evalutation since they were not the only ones who were weakened by it's creation and if they are more powerful and complete without the veil so are all the others beings of Thedas.

The Evanuris are exactly like the Greek gods compared to mortals. They're immortal and shaped reality as the people in Thedas understand it.

The Evanuris powers are sustained and nurtured by the nature of the world is not something inherent within them.On the other hand the primary Greek gods were the rulers and creators of their own respective domains(The Sun,The Sky,The oceans, ecc..) they were considered creators in the literal sense of the meaning.

 

 

The Chantry portrays the Maker in ways that resemble the Judeo-Christian God.

I don't think the Maker can be equated to the Elohim of judaism there are several differences between them.

 

-Elohim does not have a sex while The Maker is male which seem to imply that The Maker is an anthropomorphic being.

-Elohim is purely transcendental while The Maker domain was rumored to be a physical place in the fade.

-Elohim was never interpreted as a being whom abandoned the world like The Maker.

-Elohim is supposed to be flawless while The Maker seem to make mistakes like creating things of whom he is not happy about  after a while.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Solas and Geldauran also both imply that the Evanuris aren't really fundamentally different types of beings from their worshipers. That says to me that any elvhen could theoretically become as powerful as as them if they tried. Plus the Evanuris don't seem to truly rule their domains the way the Dalish thought they did.

 

Essentially I think Solas just sees them as the equivalent of how present day people in Thedas would see a modern Tevinter magister claiming to be a god.

[IHaveReturned1999]

Why should Zathrian care for Ferelden? Their misfortune is not his problem. He could move his clan to somewhere else if darkspawn became a problem for them. He only agreed to help the Warden because he helped his clan against the werewolves.

So do you claim that Zathrian is the one who told elves humans are responsible for their mortality? You are wrong that myth was born when they first met humans before Tevinter slaved elves and destroyed what remained of Arlathan, long before Zathrian was even born.

I feel very sorry for him and I sympathize his pain and anger towards humans. Part of me wants to help him with his vengeance upon the werewolves, but I chose to help the werewolves not because for the spirit's sake and the beasts. I'm doing this for him and his tribe to be released from the curse.

[Steelcan]

Any real god would be indistinguishable from a super-powered mage. Any entity who came out proclaiming he's the Maker would be incapable of proving it. So really, from the perspective of an observer, there are only super-powered mages like the Evanuris. There is no meaningful definition of "god" that can be reality-checked.

unless he fabricated an entire other world into being.  That would settle it pretty conclusively.

[Kabraxal]

Any real god would be indistinguishable from a super-powered mage. Any entity who came out proclaiming he's the Maker would be incapable of proving it. So really, from the perspective of an observer, there are only super-powered mages like the Evanuris. There is no meaningful definition of "god" that can be reality-checked.

Maybe those like the Greek and Nordic pantheons would be indistinguishable from "super powered mages", but the a god of pure will/being whose existence is beyond simple humanistic measures of space, time, and all the relativistic nonsense we take as objective reality would clearly not be confused with a super powered mage. The displays of power would break every physical law and would warp our own perceptions so greatly, there would be no confusing "extremely powerful alien being" with "this is a god...".

That "reality check" will simply be reality being broken. There would be no doubts after that.

[Seraphim24]

Maybe those like the Greek and Nordic pantheons would be indistinguishable from "super powered mages", but the a god of pure will/being whose existence is beyond simple humanistic measures of space, time, and all the relativistic nonsense we take as objective reality would clearly not be confused with a super powered mage. The displays of power would break every physical law and would warp our own perceptions so greatly, there would be no confusing "extremely powerful alien being" with "this is a god...".

That "reality check" will simply be reality being broken. There would be no doubts after that.

 

Correct, current reality would become impossible to perceive, because it doesn't exist any longer. 

 

Though, in a sense Ieldra is right because that power to break reality is, in essence, stemming from being a super powered mage (or in that case, a really, super powered mage)

 

I think it's like how people are like gosh so and so was great, and interesting, and magical, and powerful, but then they lost to X. 

 

God essentially is all that but doesn't lose to anyone, thus imposing an entire new order of existence. Which is, pretty different.  

[IHaveReturned1999]

The Chantry are just a bunch of power hungry, narcissistic, insecure racists that created this religious bull for power over people, but it is the will of the people who made this happen not the powers that be.

[Illegitimus]

Maybe those like the Greek and Nordic pantheons would be indistinguishable from "super powered mages", but the a god of pure will/being whose existence is beyond simple humanistic measures of space, time, and all the relativistic nonsense we take as objective reality would clearly not be confused with a super powered mage. The displays of power would break every physical law and would warp our own perceptions so greatly, there would be no confusing "extremely powerful alien being" with "this is a god...".

That "reality check" will simply be reality being broken. There would be no doubts after that.

 

The only test of a god is destroying the world?  I think Solas has a good shot at the job.  

[Iakus]

Maybe those like the Greek and Nordic pantheons would be indistinguishable from "super powered mages", but the a god of pure will/being whose existence is beyond simple humanistic measures of space, time, and all the relativistic nonsense we take as objective reality would clearly not be confused with a super powered mage. The displays of power would break every physical law and would warp our own perceptions so greatly, there would be no confusing "extremely powerful alien being" with "this is a god...".

That "reality check" will simply be reality being broken. There would be no doubts after that.

Which again comes to the question of "What is a god?"  I mean, is Zeus a god?  Or a really powerful mage?

[Kabraxal]

The only test of a god is destroying the world?  I think Solas has a good shot at the job.  

 

I said nothing about destroying the world.  I am simply stating that the all encompassing, omnipotent/omniscient style of god would simply shatter any and rules of "reality".  If such a god manifested itself, the simple illusion we call reality would warp and crumble and our tiny little brains would be exposed to the full brunt of actual reality.  There would be no questioning what you are meeting at that point.  No displays of actual power.  No creation or discussion.  Just the simple act of being would crush any illusion they are a simple over powered mage.

 

Which again comes to the question of "What is a god?"  I mean, is Zeus a god?  Or a really powerful mage?

 

That is the greater debate in philosophy that few discuss... which is why ignosticism is a really appealing ideology.  Personally, I wouldn't mind leaving Zeus as a god and creating a new word to describe the actual finality and immediacy of the pure being of "God", but that is something no one could agree with on one word.

 

The human language is messy...