642 respuestas en este tema

[LobselVith8]

Zeus and Kali and YHWH could all be considered villainous. That doesn't stop people from venerating them.

 

People venerating flawed gods as the fables describe isn't the same as the Dalish finding out that the Creators are outright villainous beings.

 

TONS of people hate Elthina for being an apathetic, placating, sanctimonious pushover, and Giselle and Sebastian for being preachy. Petrice is one of the most manipulative, least liked, villainous characters in the franchise..

 

How some players viewed Elthina, and how the story framed her, are very different things. And Elthina is positioned as being in opposition to Petrice, as well as the person who can "bring peace".

 

The guard says, "We are the last of the elvhen." and Varric and Fenris criticize him for it because there are elves everywhere and the Dalish don't get to decide who's a real elf.

 

Which takes a codex to explain that it comes from what was said during the last stand in the Dales - and is now utilized by the Dalish to symbolize how they will never forsake their culture or religion no matter what. It takes a codex to explain because the developers never bothered to have an actual scene where it's noted why they use this phrase. Instead, we simply have the Dalish denigrated.

 

Merrill's introduction literally has her saying that her people tell horror stories of your kind - good reason to be wary, and she goes on to say that normally the Dalish are good people who help each other.

 

A brief sentence, while we see a myriad of different Andrastians, and the information about the multitude of threats faced by the Dalish are left to codex entries that the casual player isn't likely to see, so they'll never understand why the Dalish are apprehensive in the first place.

 

No, it's not. If they've "dismantled" anything it's to explore it. The Chant says the Maker created the Veil? Nope, that's a lie. The Chant says the Maker dwells in the Golden City? Nope, that's a lie. Popular opinion is that the Inquisitor was rescued by Andraste? Nope, that's a lie.

It's not different than saying the Creators aren't what you thought they were.

 

The Creators are revealed to be villains; the Dalish never believed the elven gods were villainous. And pointing to the veil doesn't really work when no one in the story uses it to deconstruct the Andrastian faith in the way that the vanilla game and Trespasser do with the religion of the Dalish. Which isn't surprising because the vanilla game also involves Giselle saying that the Maker could still be involved even after we discover that Andraste wasn't the one we met in the Fade.

[vertigomez]

Ameridan was a Dalish mage elf, lover of a mage elven woman as well. Yet the Chantry says he was a chaste human knight, just because having an Inquisitor elf friend of the Chantry founder it would have been odd with their demonizing of the Dales people.

This is just one more mark against the Chantry, though. How can people claim Andrastianism is always exonerated when we know there are people within the Chantry who do terrible things and many of their core beliefs are challenged in DAI? Where's the unfairness when it's happening to the Chantry, to the Dalish, to the Stone?

[LobselVith8]

This is just one more mark against the Chantry, though. How can people claim Andrastianism is always exonerated when we know there are people within the Chantry who do terrible things and many of their core beliefs are challenged in DAI? Where's the unfairness when it's happening to the Chantry, to the Dalish, to the Stone?

 

In a DLC that didn't bother to cover Drakon invading his neighbors, forcibly converting people to his particular Cult of the Maker (that would become the Chantry of Andraste) and killing followers of other faiths (like the Daughters of Song) because it tried to shift all the blame on the elves (as we see with Ameridan's dialogue putting all the blame on him, followed by companions like Cassandra and Sera also blaming the elves - and only them).

[vertigomez]

People venerating flawed gods as the fables describe isn't the same as the Dalish finding out that the Creators are outright villainous beings.

...It's the same thing. I can open up any holy text or myth for an example.
  

How some players viewed Elthina, and how the story framed her, are very different things. And Elthina is positioned as being in opposition to Petrice, as well as the person who can "bring peace".

Isabela and Anders both call Elthina out on her stance. Meanwhile Sebastian adores her. The story frames her as someone who considers herself a peacekeeper, and presumably lots of Chantry loyalist agree, but there are people who are angry at her inaction and apathy. She's not presented as an unambiguously heroic character.
 

Which takes a codex to explain that it comes from what was said during the last stand in the Dales - and is now utilized by the Dalish to symbolize how they will never forsake their culture or religion no matter what. It takes a codex to explain because the developers never bothered to have an actual scene where it's noted why they use this phrase. Instead, we simply have the Dalish denigrated.

So an elf like Fenris is in the wrong for taking offense at being told that the Dalish are, in fact, the last of the elvhen?
 

A brief sentence, while we see a myriad of different Andrastians, and the information about the multitude of threats faced by the Dalish are left to codex entries that the casual player isn't likely to see, so they'll never understand why the Dalish are apprehensive in the first place.

So your complaint is that there's not more focus on the Dalish in a game that is largely not about the Dalish?

You know what we got about dwarves in this game? Bartrand the money-grubbing turncoat and Varric who's not into dwarfiness at all. Those were valid characters to have around; I don't need the narrative to constantly remind me that Orzammar is under constant threat from the darkspawn. If I want to see that firsthand, I'll pop in DAO and play an Aeducan or Brosca.
 

The Creators are revealed to be villains; the Dalish never believed the elven gods were villainous. And pointing to the veil doesn't really work when no one in the story uses it to deconstruct the Andrastian faith in the way that the vanilla game and Trespasser do with the religion of the Dalish. Which isn't surprising because the vanilla game also involves Giselle saying that the Maker could still be involved even after we discover that Andraste wasn't the one we met in the Fade.

That's how the concept of an unknowable god works. You can saying that literally anything is His will, that it all happened according to His plan, etc. That's how the big ol' Abrahamic religions work IRL and it's how Andrastianism works in Thedas.

How does the source of the Veil not challenge anyone's beliefs? If I was playing an Andrastian character, they'd be examining their faith. If I played a Dalish character, they'd be doing likewise.

[LobselVith8]

...It's the same thing. I can open up any holy text or myth for an example.

 

It isn't. I don't really see why you continue to contest this. The Dalish view them as gods, not powerful mages; they view them as flawed beings, not villainous mages. Their stories involve Elgar'nan fighting the Sun, which isn't comparable to a powerful mage but a more traditional god of mythology.

 

Isabela and Anders both call Elthina out on her stance. Meanwhile Sebastian adores her. The story frames her as someone who considers herself a peacekeeper, and presumably lots of Chantry loyalist agree, but there are people who are angry at her inaction and apathy. She's not presented as an unambiguously heroic character.

 

Anders is also positioned as someone who blows her up, and it colors everything he says because some people refuse to take anything he says at face value simply because of that act. In comparison, Elthina is continually framed by the developers as a good character and as someone who can bring peace between Meredith and Orsino. She is, in fact, presented as an unambiguously good character.

 

So an elf like Fenris is in the wrong for taking offense at being told that the Dalish are, in fact, the last of the elvhen?

 

Or the Dalish could have simply explained why they use that phrase in the first place, instead of using the scene so that Fenris and Varric can color the Dalish in a very negative light with their dialogue, and therefore color how the player views them as well. Instead of having the scene focus on explaining why the Dalish would be wary of outsiders - from humans attacking them when they stay too long in one area to Andrastians threatening them with violence to convert, and the additional issue of templars hunting them down - it simply serves as a scene intended to frame the Dalish in a very negative way.

[The Elder King]

Ameridan was a Dalish mage elf, lover of a mage elven woman as well. Yet the Chantry says he was a chaste human knight, just because having an Inquisitor elf friend of the Chantry founder it would have been odd with their demonizing of the Dales people.

I thought you meant Ameridas changed some historical fact. I misunderstood what you meant.
That might've happened after the end of the war between Orlais and the Dales, when the Chantry tried to erase the positive things that elves did related with Andraste/the religion. While I don't agree with it it's a common thing winners do with losers. The Romans did the same with their former enemies, portraying them in a negative way compared to themselves.

[Zero]

...It's the same thing. I can open up any holy text or myth for an example.
 

 

 

It's not the same thing. Mythological gods are flawed, yes, but no outright evil. They are selfish and bastards, but care for their worshippers (according to myth, at least), and can be called by them to make their lives easy. Zeus is selfish, yes, but he is still regarded as a good, compassionate god that worshippers would call to calm the storms, bring rain to crops and other stuff.

 

The Evanuris just were evil mages who wanted to control the world, and care nothing about their worshippers at all. Dunno why a dalish would call to a god who wanted he to live in slavery.

[LobselVith8]

So your complaint is that there's not more focus on the Dalish in a game that is largely not about the Dalish?

 

I think you mean my criticism focuses on how unbalanced the portrayal is when the Dalish are shown, as I already explained a few times already with Hawke meeting the Sabrae Clan.

 

That's how the concept of an unknowable god works. You can saying that literally anything is His will, that it all happened according to His plan, etc. That's how the big ol' Abrahamic religions work IRL and it's how Andrastianism works in Thedas.

 

And the developers treat it as sacrosanct while they vilified the Creators and pretty much regard the faith of the Dalish as being wrong since their gods are said to be villainous mages.

 

How does the source of the Veil not challenge anyone's beliefs? If I was playing an Andrastian character, they'd be examining their faith. If I played a Dalish character, they'd be doing likewise.

 

No one uses that information to challenge Andrastian beliefs in Inquisition or Trespasser. We only see scenes where Dalish beliefs are continually challenged.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Again, what is a god? Are the Avvar gods not gods because they're spirits? I think they still count. If the Old Gods are just dragons, are they not gods? I'd disagree with that, and I disagree that being a god-mage doesn't make you a god, either, unless you subscribe to a VERY specific definition of godhood.
 

Why, because they're power-hungry a-holes? What else is new? You're describing most gods in most pantheons around the world.

 

I don't really agree, either. Aren't Ancient Greek Gods and Ancient Norse Gods, for example, still believed to be inherently Divine in nature that makes the beyond humanity? They're responsible for the fundamental workings of the cosmos. They control things like why storms happen at all, why the sun itself moves across the sky and are the ones that bring souls to their place in the afterlife, in accordance with their cosmic judgment. 

 

And in myth and legend, even legendary heroes believing themselves to be equal to the gods was considered a fatal hubris. 

 

I mean, in Ancient Egypt the people believed their Pharaohs to be gods, but were they ever considered equal to Ancient Egyptian Pantheon? 

 

Second, I don't know the numbers of people around the world who will see their own gods as malevolent power hungry A-holes and still worship them, either in modern or ancient times, but in the case of the Dalish I do believe that revealing the Creators to be cruel and oppressive such does disprove their religion. They envisioned their gods as reasonably benevolent and good-natured, but this would make them monstrous impostors. And I don't think that's exactly an unusual attitude among monotheists or polytheists. 

 

I don't know a whole lot about Hinduism, for instance, but what little I've seen of their religious materials seems to emphasize the benevolence of their deities. 

 

But of course, someone who knows more about that can correct me if I'm off base, so I'll use another example. In the Forgotten Realms setting, all the gods are known to exist. But even though they aren't omnipotent, people still worship one or more of them. But if there was someone who was follower of Tyr, Torm and Ilmater and later discovered that somehow they weren't the gods of justice, duty and hope, but murder, cruelty and slavery or something, then his religion would be disproven. If that happened, he would then turn to different gods.

 

Also, I don't think the Old Gods are "just dragons." They are intelligent enough that they have communicated clear orders to both their priests and the darkspawn. Also most of them are somehow male, even though for ordinary dragons, that should be impossible. Are they gods? We don't know exactly, but I think if we discovered that they were just dragons, then I would say that they wouldn't be.

[R0vena]

In fact, all the battle against Corypheus does reinforce the tale of evil Tevinter Mages who doomed the world by going to the Golden City bull***t, even if Corypheus says there was no god in that City, that was already evil and tainted when they went there. "It just him lying because of x and y", is what Mother Giselle says if you confront her with the truth. Yet, no Dalish is depicted saying "is Fen'Harel propaganda that the Evanuris are evil. We know Fen'Harel is a trickster and of course he will say that". No, the game is absolutely clear all believe the Evanuris are evil, beyond shadows of doubt, even if the one revealing the truth admits that the elven myths about him are true and he is an evil bastard who destroyed the elven world, and is going to destroy the current one as well.

 

Isn't it a little premature to assume what all think or not on the matter of Fen'Harel's relevations? We as an Inquisitor literally found out about it in the last few minutes of the game. We had no chance to find out what anybody thinks on the matter. 

[Zero]

Isn't it a little premature to assume what all think or not on the matter of Fen'Harel's relevations? We as an Inquisitor literally found out about it in the last few minutes of the game. We had no chance to find out what anybody thinks on the matter. 

 

Seeing literally all of Thedas elves (Dalish or not) following Solas rebellion in the epilogue, is a good indicator that many indeed believed in his words.

[The Elder King]

Seeing literally all of Thedas elves (Dalish or not) following Solas rebellion in the epilogue, is a good indicator that many indeed believed in his words.

The fact that they believed him doesn't mean what he said is all true, considering he might be lying on them to his plan helping elves.

[Sah291]

I don't really agree, either. Aren't Ancient Greek Gods and Norse Gods, for example, still believed to be inherently Divine in nature that makes the beyond humanity? They're responsible for the fundamental workings of the cosmos. They control things like why storms happen at all, why the sun itself moves across the sky and are the ones that bring souls to their place in the afterlife, in accordance with their cosmic judgment. 
 
And in myth and legend, even legendary heroes believing themselves to be equal to the gods was considered a fatal hubris. 
 
I mean, in Ancient Egypt the people believed their Pharaohs to be gods, but were they ever considered equal to Ancient Egyptian Pantheon? 
 
Second, I don't know the numbers of people around the world who will see their own gods as malevolent power hungry A-holes and still worship them, either in modern or ancient times, but in the case of the Dalish I do believe that revealing the Creators to be cruel and oppressive such does disprove their religion. They envisioned their gods as reasonably benevolent and good-natured, but this would make them monstrous impostors. And I don't think that's exactly an unusual attitude among monotheists or polytheists. 
 
I don't know a whole lot about Hinduism, for instance, but what little I've seen of their religious materials seems to emphasize the benevolence of their deities. 
 
But of course, someone who knows more about that can correct me if I'm off base, so I'll use another example. In the Forgotten Realms setting, all the gods are known to exist. But even though they aren't omnipotent, people still worship one or more of them. But if there was someone who was follower of Tyr, Torm and Ilmater and later discovered that somehow they weren't the gods of justice, duty and hope, but murder, cruelty and slavery or something, then his religion would be disproven. If that happened, he would then turn to different gods.
 
Also, I don't think the Old Gods are "just dragons." They are intelligent enough that they have communicated clear orders to both their priests and the darkspawn. Also most of them are somehow male, even though for ordinary dragons, that should be impossible. Are they gods? We don't know exactly, but I think if we discovered that they were just dragons, then I would say that they wouldn't be.

The Pharaohs did at times portray themselves as being divine, and as offspring or avatars of the gods. Usually particular gods only--like Ra or Horus, I think. But, they would be the Ra or Horus of the kingdom and of the earthly/mortal relam. Not of the entire world or universe as such.

This is somewhat a hard concept I had trouble with when I first started to study it. And this is true in Hinduism to some extent as well. There is an Indra of the above, and Indra of the below.

There is Zeus/Jupiter, ruler of Heaven. There is Zeus/Jupiter, as a divine archetype or genius that rules a city, or as the patron of an individual, etc.

Often in myth, when you read such and such god did this or that, it's not always literal. They could be used poetically in this sort of archetypical way to describe events or philosophical ideas. Poetry or theater were common devotional forms for the Greeks, but the myths weren't regarded as canon or revealed scripture, the same way as the Bible, etc. There were other versions of myths, depending on the region or time period.

[LobselVith8]

Seeing literally all of Thedas elves (Dalish or not) following Solas rebellion in the epilogue, is a good indicator that many indeed believed in his words.

I would hope that Bioware actually adheres to the cultural depiction of the Dalish being wary of Fen'Harel and that they don't vilify them further by making them blindly follow Fen'Harel.

[The Elder King]

I would hope that Bioware actually adheres to the cultural depiction of the Dalish being wary of Fen'Harel and that they don't vilify them further by making them blindly follow Fen'Harel.

I don't think it's vilify. The revelations of the Evanuris might lead them to follow him.
I'd prefer them to be wary though.

[LobselVith8]

I don't think it's vilify. The revelations of the Evanuris might lead them to follow him.
I'd prefer them to be wary though.

Their stories involve him being a trickster, so it would be logical for them to be wary of Fen'Harel. I also think that putting them with an enemy would further vilify them, and I think Bioware needs to back off that. It's getting ridiculous at this point.

[Zero]

They're not andrastians. They don't matter for the plot, thus they will be vilified because is more easy for the plot just to get a race to blame for all while exalting all the "virtues" of adrastianism. Same with the Grey Wardens or mages, for that matter.

[Sah291]

Their stories involve him being a trickster, so it would be logical for them to be wary of Fen'Harel. I also think that putting them with an enemy would further vilify them, and I think Bioware needs to back off that. It's getting ridiculous at this point.

I doubt it, by the end of the game, it's Solas who is portrayed as a villian.

The Evanuris may have been imperfect to begin with. But I think it was done to explain why the Veil was created in the first place and why Solas waged a war/rebellion against them. They had gone too far, became too powerful, etc. We are meant to sympathize with that reason, probably as a reason to justify stopping Solas and keeping the Veil. The Veil was supposed to be a check on the power of the gods and spirits, and the Fade in general.

The key thing is Solas believes that his own actions went too far, and people have suffered for being cut off from the Fade. So now we have to weigh the potential for tyrant god kings to emerge versus a Thedas where magic will eventually disappear if the Veil is kept or strengthened like the Qunari want.

[The Elder King]

They're not andrastians. They don't matter for the plot, thus they will be vilified because is more easy for the plot just to get a race to blame for all while exalting all the "virtues" of adrastianism. Same with the Grey Wardens or mages, for that matter.

Plenty of mages and Wardens are Andrastians. I doubt the negative portrayals were due to that reason.
Not to mention the same, if not worse, portrayals of the templars, which by your logic should've been considered Paladins and saints, which the games don't.

[Pasquale1234]

A brief sentence, while we see a myriad of different Andrastians, and the information about the multitude of threats faced by the Dalish are left to codex entries that the casual player isn't likely to see, so they'll never understand why the Dalish are apprehensive in the first place.

Such a casual player isn't going to care, either.
 

It isn't. I don't really see why you continue to contest this. The Dalish view them as gods, not powerful mages; they view them as flawed beings, not villainous mages. Their stories involve Elgar'nan fighting the Sun, which isn't comparable to a powerful mage but a more traditional god of mythology.

Did something somewhere convince you that the Dalish necessarily see gods as being something different from powerful mages?

Solas / Fen'Harel's opinion of them is just that - one god's opinion.

Mythal and Fen'Harel have been shown to actually exist. We've also seen loads of eluvians in use, glimpses of what Arlathan might have been, evidence that elven immortality is a real thing, and evidence of some very strong ancient elven magic.

We're seeing that ancient elven figures are not just myths, but actually exist. It may be that the form in which they exist does not exactly match current Dalish beliefs, but that is not uncommon. Legends passed down orally century after century tend to change over time.
 

And the developers treat it as sacrosanct

Sacrosanct? Andrastian faith is just that. Faith. Beliefs. Not necessarily Truth.

When Cassandra, Leliana, or some Cleric starts telling my character about their faith, I automatically believe them. That the faith they're expressing is what they genuinely believe, that is - not that it's necessarily the truth or the only truth.

Faith is just faith, not fact.

[LobselVith8]

Did something somewhere convince you that the Dalish necessarily see gods as being something different from powerful mages?

 

Yes - their lore. Or are you suggesting powerful mages literally fight the sun?

[Pasquale1234]

Yes - their lore. Or are you suggesting powerful mages literally fight the sun?

I can't speak for powerful mages, but I've been known to fight the sun - mostly with sunscreen, sunglasses, visors, and shade trees.

Things mentioned in mythology, folklore, or legends aren't always literal.

[straykat]

I think there's good reason for favoritism towards Andrastianism. It was pure in intent and positive in it's fight. Sometimes history has a spark of light like that.. mostly of them anti-slavery movements like this. But Bioware isn't in favor of the Chantry. Slightly different thing. They've wrecked it as much as other things. Even the Inquisitor themselves is a wrecking ball.

[LobselVith8]

I can't speak for powerful mages, but I've been known to fight the sun - mostly with sunscreen, sunglasses, visors, and shade trees.

Things mentioned in mythology, folklore, or legends aren't always literal.

 

In other words, the Dalish clearly see their gods being different than powerful mages.

[Steelcan]

the levels of salt coming from the elf fandom recently should be enough to keep the pretzels at every home baseball game in America fully seasoned for a year