Such a casual player isn't going to care, either.
A casual player is informed by the scene - which is the issue.
Sacrosanct? Andrastian faith is just that. Faith. Beliefs. Not necessarily Truth.
We know that the developers have said that they will never answer whether or not the Maker is real - while the faith of the Dalish is invalidated. That's a rather stark difference in how the two faiths are treated.
I'm not even gonna touch on Dwarven "religion", which seems like something that really didn't even seem to exist before Inquisition in the same way Inquisition handles it (heck, Origins even has "narrative" text claiming the Dwarves don't have a religion at all...this isn't exactly how its portrayed, but still).
The core point of this thread is off-base. DA:I goes to great lengths to discredit pretty much every aspect of Andrastian doctrine. Even the core premise of the Inquisition - that Andraste intervened in the physical world and has some physical herald - is rank heresy based on the usual Andrastian doctrine (particularly vis-a-vis their own interpretation of their absentee god). We spent the entire game seeing various adherents of this religion adopt increasingly comical and ridiculous far-fetched views (or in the case of Josephine, openly self-serving views).
The point about DA never confirming or denying the existence of the Maker (and note that the DG quotes actually related to gods generally, which DA:I already departs from by dealing with the Evanuris) has more to do with an epistemic point: that we can't prove god IRL and, unlike say the Forgotten Realms where people know their gods are real, Bioware does not want it to be known in-setting whether these gods ever exist (as gods).
This extends, actually, to the Evanuris and especially to the "stone" (i.e., the Titans). Thus far the Titans are the closest thing we see to a god apart from Solas and Mythal. In fact, the Maker is the single figure in the setting that looks like a fraudulent crock of BS. In a setting where magic is real and where ostensibly non-gods like Solas (or self-declared non-gods) can so fundamentally alter physical reality that by our IRL standards they would be gods, the Maker's total absence is pretty much a sign-post to any rational person the whole thing is smoke and mirrors.
In other words, the Dalish clearly see their gods being different than powerful mages.
Yeah. Like this one dude who literally altered the entire fabric of reality, ripped away the fundamental nature of the elves in a way that stripped them of the fundamental essence of their magic and their immortality, and possibly fundamentally altered the nature of spirits and their relationship to the physical world.
The Evanuris - including Solas - were so different from powerful mages as the Dalish understand magic there's no possible comparison. Even Solas tells us this when he talks about what the elvhen were - what they did, what they build, how they lived. We see this repeated in the (relatively intense) focus that DA:I has on the elvhen. They were beings of a kind basically impossible for modern Thedas to understand, living in a world that's largely incomprehensible to Thedosians.
The elvhen - much less the Evanuris, who stood as gods over them - were gods as far as everyone in modern Thedas is concerned, humans and elves alike.
I don't really agree, either. Aren't Ancient Greek Gods and Ancient Norse Gods, for example, still believed to be inherently Divine in nature that makes the beyond humanity? They're responsible for the fundamental workings of the cosmos. They control things like why storms happen at all, why the sun itself moves across the sky and are the ones that bring souls to their place in the afterlife, in accordance with their cosmic judgment.
And in myth and legend, even legendary heroes believing themselves to be equal to the gods was considered a fatal hubris.
I mean, in Ancient Egypt the people believed their Pharaohs to be gods, but were they ever considered equal to Ancient Egyptian Pantheon?
Second, I don't know the numbers of people around the world who will see their own gods as malevolent power hungry A-holes and still worship them, either in modern or ancient times, but in the case of the Dalish I do believe that revealing the Creators to be cruel and oppressive such does disprove their religion. They envisioned their gods as reasonably benevolent and good-natured, but this would make them monstrous impostors. And I don't think that's exactly an unusual attitude among monotheists or polytheists.
I don't know a whole lot about Hinduism, for instance, but what little I've seen of their religious materials seems to emphasize the benevolence of their deities.
But of course, someone who knows more about that can correct me if I'm off base, so I'll use another example. In the Forgotten Realms setting, all the gods are known to exist. But even though they aren't omnipotent, people still worship one or more of them. But if there was someone who was follower of Tyr, Torm and Ilmater and later discovered that somehow they weren't the gods of justice, duty and hope, but murder, cruelty and slavery or something, then his religion would be disproven. If that happened, he would then turn to different gods.
Also, I don't think the Old Gods are "just dragons." They are intelligent enough that they have communicated clear orders to both their priests and the darkspawn. Also most of them are somehow male, even though for ordinary dragons, that should be impossible. Are they gods? We don't know exactly, but I think if we discovered that they were just dragons, then I would say that they wouldn't be.
The Evanuris would certainly argue that they have an inherently divine nature. Solas challenges it - but we are talking about, as I said above, a being who altered the physical reality of Thedas in a way that's basically impossible to conceive for modern Thedosians. The Inquisitor's supposedly divine power - closing rifts - is the most basic and puerile use of a power that belonged, as far as we can tell, quintessentially to Solas. And that's a power actually worshiped as divine.
A big part of DA:I is about what it means to believe in divinity, and whether something is divine because it has some kind of platonic ideal nature of "divine", or whether it's communal faith in one's divinity that renders that person divine.
Abellas, for example, clearly believed Mythal had an inherently divine nature. All we have so far is Solas telling us he is not divine. Well, this brings us back to the spirits example for the Avaar. Do the spirits have a divine nature? Relative to humans, arguably - they have lots of features we in myths ascribe to divine beings. What does it mean for them to be "inherently" divine? That's just a matter of belief.
Beyond that, certainly the Elvhen didn't see their own gods as malevolent beings. Solas, who led a rebellion against them, saw them as malevolent. I see YHWH as an incredibly malevolent being, based on how it is described. If I challenged it and won, does that mean I was right about it being malevonent (let's ignore the implications for omnipotence)?
Edit:
Here's the best example. Is Hakkon a god? Does the fact that other Thedosians have a mechanical explanation for how it came about (a dragon abomination) make it less of a god, based on its powers, or its nature? Why does being a spirit mean it's not bestowed with a divine nature? What makes the nature "divine"?
Yeah. Like this one dude who literally altered the entire fabric of reality, ripped away the fundamental nature of the elves in a way that stripped them of the fundamental essence of their magic and their immortality, and possibly fundamentally altered the nature of spirits and their relationship to the physical world.
None of that makes Solas a god in the traditional sense that the Dalish viewed the Creators as gods, although you seemed to have missed the point of the discussion I was having when you replied to that segment of my post. If you are were trying to debate what makes a god - which isn't actually brought up as the premise of the Creators, since the only point of view we're provided with is Solas saying they weren't gods and that their divinity is a misrepresentation - then there was no reason for you to quote me if you were going to ignore what I was discussing.
The Evanuris - including Solas - were so different from powerful mages as the Dalish understand magic there's no possible comparison. Even Solas tells us this when he talks about what the elvhen were - what they did, what they build, how they lived. We see this repeated in the (relatively intense) focus that DA:I has on the elvhen. They were beings of a kind basically impossible for modern Thedas to understand, living in a world that's largely incomprehensible to Thedosians.
The issue is simply that the story does ask us to question what makes a god - we have Solas outright say that they weren't gods, but powerful mages, and that their perceived divinity is simply how they were misconstrued over time due to their achievements.
Well, like a couple others have pointed out, polytheism lends itself more easily to this sort of criticism from monotheists, I guess, because polytheists don't consider the gods to be perfect or omnipotent, etc.
In polytheism, gods are not completely infallible or ineffable. Monotheistic creator gods on the other hand are supposed to be either completely transcendental, and/or they are the original and supreme creator or architect of ultimate reality, etc. They represent ultimate reality or ultimate divinity and authority, and are therefore perfect and complete in every way....but by their very nature unknowable to the human mind. So there is this whole grappling with faith in an ultimately unknowable god that doesn't directly act or intercede, perhaps except through people, etc.
*snip*
Before I was an atheist, I was a Hindu and yeah, many monotheists look down on polytheists even though polytheism by its very nature, encourages more diversity of worship and tolerance of said diversity.
*snip*
While the developers have made it clear that they won't handle the Andrastian faith in a comparable way.
Spot on, especially considering that the Maker is vain, adulterous, narcissistic and masochistic but you won't hear any talk of Maker's vanity for example.
Solas' view of the Evanuris is pretty biased and one sided, though, you have to admit. We have really only seen them so far from his perespective, and from the perspective of humans and Andrastianism....
But anyway, I think this is hitting the central theme of the game. What is a god, and what qualifies something as a god? And what makes one worth following or not? Is it simply enough to have followers or to be very powerful? Or to have been responsible for creation? Or, etc?
I believe that the Evanuris started out just fine. They were, after all, the Creators of the Elvhen Civilization who taught the Elvhen how to live and if they did not put the Titans to sleep or make them forget, the Elvhen Civilization would not have flourished.
However, the war that broke out, either with the Titans or the Forgotten Ones, changed them. During the war, in a world without a Veil, collective Elven belief in their leaders would have granted these said leaders enormous amounts of power since in a world without Veil, beliefs can be made into reality. This war ended with the Evanuris triumphing and the subsequent realization by said Evanuris that the collective belief of the Elven people made them powerful.
This slowly over time lead to the transitions of the Evanuris from leaders to generals to god kings and god queens. I for one would posit the hypothesis that in the early days of the Elvhen Civilization, the Evanuris started out as Keepers of their specific clans and these clans later grew in size to become states or kingdoms in their own right with each Evanuris-Keeper being the leader. It would certainly mimic the growth pattern of the earliest civilizations IRL.
The realization that collective belief made them powerful lead the Evanuris to elevate themselves to godhood and institute mechanisms to prevent others from reaching to their level such as restricting Dragon shapeshifting to themselves. Obviously these mechanisms were not fixed because Ghilan'nain and Solas did manage to get elevated as well.
Over time, drunk in their power, many of the Evanuris turned evil, with Mythal being the best of them. When Mythal was slain by the other Evanuris, possibly as a retaliation for her smiting down Andruil who had gone crazy with her Void armor and weapons, the lead to a massive civil war amongst the Elvhen (or the war could have started already) and all this prompted Solas to banish the Evanuris away and create the Veil (most probably because the Evanuris were using Red Lyrium, we see many paintings depicting this).
Having said all that, I believe that not all the Evanuris were outright evil. Mythal most certainly isn't and we only have evidence that Falon'Din, Andruil, and Ghilan'nain are the outright evil ones. We do not know how Dirthamen or June or Sylaise behaved. Elgar'nan might very well not be evil but be a lot like Odin or Zeus or Indra, terrifying jerk but not outright evil. Perhaps some of them could possibly even repent.
None of that makes Solas a god in the traditional sense that the Dalish viewed the Creators as gods, although you seemed to have missed the point of the discussion I was having when you replied to that segment of my post. If you are were trying to debate what makes a god - which isn't actually brought up as the premise of the Creators, since the only point of view we're provided with is Solas saying they weren't gods and that their divinity is a misrepresentation - then there was no reason for you to quote me if you were going to ignore what I was discussing.
No, you're wrong. It makes Solas a god exactly in the sense that the Dalish believe the "Creators" (who, ironically, the Dalish don't believe were Creators) were gods. Let's use a different example: the elvhen all having magic. The Dalish believe the elves were all originally 'gifted' with magic - but the Dalish conception of a "mage" can't even begin to comprehend what it meant to have magic, as Solas described it. The Dalish think they were all beings like, say their Keepers. But as Solas explains, the elves were so fundamentally different in their magic and nature that by comparison, modern peoples are to them as tranquils are to modern mages.
Edit: Let me clarify this a bit. Solas performed a feat that no other elvhen mage did (and perhaps could): he created the Veil. It's not clear by what means he did it, other than it meant the use of his foci (or Mythal's foci, if the dev notes continue to be canon). You presume: (i) that Solas is the same kind of being as any average elvhen, who happens to have magic; (ii) that the Evanuris are the same kinds of beings as Solas; and (iii) that these kinds of beings couldn't be conceived of as divine. That's all mistaken, even by the internal logic of the Dalish in the present and certainly by the internal logic of the elvhen in the past.
You have two points: (i) Solas challenges the divinity of the Evanuris, so they can't be divine; and (ii) Solas challenges the benevolence of the Evanuris, so they couldn't have been benevolent. But neither of these points are substantiated, and the very scant Dalish stories that we have don't cast the Evanuris in quite the benevolent light you seem to think they were cast. As the Temple of Mythal proves, the Evanuris weren't uniquely tyrants.
I read your post - but I wasn't about to correct 4 pages of misconception and lamentation that the Dalish worldview isn't completely venerated, even though DA:I was by far the game that was the most empowering for the elves in the series, and featured elven perspectives to the greatest degree.
The issue is simply that the story does ask us to question what makes a god - we have Solas outright say that they weren't gods, but powerful mages, and that their perceived divinity is simply how they were misconstrued over time due to their achievements
No, you're wrong. It makes Solas a god exactly in the sense that the Dalish believe the "Creators" (who, ironically, the Dalish don't believe were Creators) were gods. Let's use a different example: the elvhen all having magic. The Dalish believe the elves were all originally 'gifted' with magic - but the Dalish conception of a "mage" can't even begin to comprehend what it meant to have magic, as Solas described it. The Dalish think they were all beings like, say their Keepers. But as Solas explains, the elves were so fundamentally different in their magic and nature that by comparison, modern peoples are to them as tranquils are to modern mages.
No, Solas isn't. The Dalish believe the Creators are gods in the traditional sense, which is why one of their stories involves Elgar'nan fighting his father - the Sun. Since this clearly isn't the case, then Solas and the Creators clearly aren't gods in the way the Dalish believed them to be.
I read your post - but I wasn't about to correct 4 pages of misconception and lamentation that the Dalish worldview isn't completely venerated, even though DA:I was by far the game that was the most empowering for the elves in the series, and featured elven perspectives to the greatest degree.
Focusing on elven artifacts and moments in time isn't the same as focusing on elven perspectives. The perspectives of the Andrastian elves and the Dalish elves is incredibly marginalized.
And the more I think about it, the more this doesn't sound right. Where does Solas say the Evanuris were powerful mages? He says they were the first of his kind. He says they were war heroes who eventually came to call themselves gods, and were worshiped as such. He vehemently denies their divinity and says they became monsters. But were does he reduce them to just powerful mages, as if they were just leaders of his kind and nothing else? Those are your words. Solas challenges their divinity, but he doesn't suggest they were necessarily the same as all other elvhen (his "the first of my kind do not die so easily" or whatever the exact line was actually suggests they aren't exactly the same as the other elvhen).
Solas calls them "false gods" (which is a term also echoed by the Inquisitor). Despite your "theory", the storyline involves dialogue addressing that Evanarius are explicitly called "elven mages".
The core point of this thread is off-base. DA:I goes to great lengths to discredit pretty much every aspect of Andrastian doctrine. Even the core premise of the Inquisition - that Andraste intervened in the physical world and has some physical herald - is rank heresy based on the usual Andrastian doctrine (particularly vis-a-vis their own interpretation of their absentee god). We spent the entire game seeing various adherents of this religion adopt increasingly comical and ridiculous far-fetched views (or in the case of Josephine, openly self-serving views).
This is true but the Andrastian response to this reality is to blatantly ignore it. Many of them ignore them or simply say that "I have faith" or give some pathetic self serving interpretation.
The same is true of Inquisitors who choose to be devoutly Andrastian. The revelations did not affect them in the slightest.
Yet Elven Inquisitors are expected to feel regret, sorrow and heartbroken when they learn the truth about their faith as well as endure ridicule and mockery from others for their faith.
Why can't Andrastian Inquisitors express regret, sorrow and heartbreak as they slowly learn the truth about their religion and why can't a non-Andrastian Inquisitor pull a Sera or a Solas towards the Andrastians and mock them when they learn the reality of Andrastianism ?
Why is it that we have both Andrastianism and Creator worship being discredit yet the Creator worshiper is railroaded into being negative about it whereas the Andrastian can say "FAITH !" and be done with it ? Why can't an Elven Inquisitor say something like:- "Not all of the Creators are evil, Solas made a mistake locking them all up." or say "Some of the Creators might be evil but they did not start out that way and you, Fen'Harel, destroyed our civilization. Truly, you are a harellan."
That could have balanced things out just fine. IRL, Zeus has done plenty of bad things and so did Odin. The avatars of Vishnu such as Krishna and Rama made plenty of mistakes and Rama treated his wife like shite. Shiva the Destroyer burned Kama the God of Love in his wrath and gave his blessings to the demon Raavana. Yet these deities are worshiped by many worldwide (not sure about Zeus or Odin but Hindu gods like Shiva, Krisha and Rama have lots of worshipers worldwide). As you point out, that the whole deal with faith.
Why is only the Andrastians that are allowed to have faith and be faithful despite all the happens to their religion but the rest are not ? That is most definitely favoritism.
No, Solas isn't. The Dalish believe the Creators are gods in the traditional sense, which is why one of their stories involves Elgar'nan fighting his father - the Sun. Since this clearly isn't the case, then Solas and the Creators clearly aren't gods in the way the Dalish believed them to be.
Focusing on elven artifacts and moments in time isn't the same as focusing on elven perspectives. The perspectives of the Andrastian elves and the Dalish elves is incredibly marginalized, for example.
The perspective of "Andrastian" elves is captured by Sera, who features incredibly prominently in-game. As well as Briala, and the elven servants we speak to in the Winter Palace. The perspective of the ancient elvhen features very prominently - in Solas and in Abelas (and Mythal). The Dalish certainly feature - both in the clan we meet (the first purely positive portrayal of the Dalish, in fact) and the actual perspective of the literal Dalish elves - those who lived in the Dales - through the codices we discover. This is a rich and varied portrayal. The current Dalish being a well-deserved footnote doesn't mean the elves perspective is marginalized - it just means the perspective you like is marinalized.
As to your first point, that's nonsense. It's nonsense for two reasons. First, it suggests that if Elgar'nan (1) didn't literally capture the sun and (2) literally isn't the son of the sun, then the entire Dalish faith is false. That's ridiculous. These stories could be metaphorical and Elgar'nan could still be a god. Second, it suggests that if one part of the Dalish religious myth is wrong, then it's all wrong. That's also nonsense.
More importantly, let's say I agree with your nonsense. Then you're completely wrong in your point about Andrastian faith: the DA series then completely discredits it repeatedly in every game, by overturning and discreting multiple aspects of the doctrine.
This is true but the Andrastian response to this reality is to blatantly ignore it. Many of them ignore them or simply say that "I have faith" or give some pathetic self serving interpretation.
The same is true of Inquisitors who choose to be devoutly Andrastian. The revelations did not affect them in the slightest.
Yet Elven Inquisitors are expected to feel regret, sorrow and heartbroken when they learn the truth about their faith as well as endure ridicule and mockery from others for their faith.
Why can't Andrastian Inquisitors express regret, sorrow and heartbreak as they slowly learn the truth about their religion and why can't a non-Andrastian Inquisitor pull a Sera or a Solas towards the Andrastians and mock them when they learn the reality of Andrastianism ?
Why is it that we have both Andrastianism and Creator worship being discredit yet the Creator worshiper is railroaded into being negative about it whereas the Andrastian can say "FAITH !" and be done with it ? Why can't an Elven Inquisitor say something like:- "Not all of the Creators are evil, Solas made a mistake locking them all up." or say "Some of the Creators might be evil but they did not start out that way and you, Fen'Harel, destroyed our civilization. Truly, you are a harellan."
That could have balanced things out just fine. IRL, Zeus has done plenty of bad things and so did Odin. The avatars of Vishnu such as Krishna and Rama made plenty of mistakes and Rama treated his wife like shite. Shiva the Destroyer burned Kama the God of Love in his wrath and gave his blessings to the demon Raavana. Yet these deities are worshiped by many worldwide (not sure about Zeus or Odin but Hindu gods like Shiva, Krisha and Rama have lots of worshipers worldwide). As you point out, that the whole deal with faith.
Why is only the Andrastians that are allowed to have faith and be faithful despite all the happens to their religion but the rest are not ? That is most definitely favoritism.
This is wrong. First of all, an Andrastian Inquisitor has multiple occasions to say that their faith is completely shattered. For example, an Inquisitor can say that the revelation in the Fade has shattered their faith and they renounce it. You get the same option after Corypheus - you can tell Mother Giselle that you are a fraud. There are lots of options to renounce faith if you start with saying you're Andrastian.
I can't speak to the range of options in Trespasser, but I don't think we can treat these the same way. The revelation about the Evanuris is an 11th hour revelation - it comes about as late as possible in the game. The Maker is discredited way earlier.
And keep in mind that the characters that say this arble-garble about the Maker are NPCs. Trespasser doesn't give us a Dalish NPC that could react to what Solas says about the Evanuris. The Inquisitor also doesn't get to have a heartfelt reveal about faith with the ostensible spirit of Justinia in the Fade, as I recall.
The perspective of "Andrastian" elves is captured by Sera, who features incredibly prominently in-game. As well as Briala, and the elven servants we speak to in the Winter Palace. The perspective of the ancient elvhen features very prominently - in Solas and in Abelas (and Mythal). The Dalish certainly feature - both in the clan we meet (the first purely positive portrayal of the Dalish, in fact) and the actual perspective of the literal Dalish elves - those who lived in the Dales - through the codices we discover. This is a rich and varied portrayal. The current Dalish being a well-deserved footnote doesn't mean the elves perspective is marginalized - it just means the perspective you like is marginalized.
Sera is racist against elves and Briala is incredibly marginalized to the point where the massacre of Halamshiral (that help put her on her current course) is barely mentioned and her goals require TME in order to fully understand. We get more dialogue in the last two games with the Dalish than we do with Keeper Hawen's clan. Again, the elven perspective is marginalized, and this has been brought up by multiple people, not simply on BSN but elsewhere.
As to your first point, that's nonsense. It's nonsense for two reasons. First, it suggests that if Elgar'nan (1) didn't literally capture the sun and (2) literally isn't the son of the sun, then the entire Dalish faith is false. That's ridiculous. These stories could be metaphorical and Elgar'nan could still be a god. Second, it suggests that if one part of the Dalish religious myth is wrong, then it's all wrong. That's also nonsense.
It isn't nonsense - it's the simple fact that the Dalish viewed the Creators as traditional gods, which is obvious given how their religious stories say that Elgar'nan is the son of the Sun and had a literal battle with him.
You pretty much engaged me in a conversation I was having with someone else, and you seemed to have little understanding what the conversation was actually about because you're grasping at straws here. If the Creators aren't traditional gods as they are in the religious stories of the Dalish, then they aren't gods as the Dalish envisioned them to be. That was the point of the conversation I was having, a point you seemed to have missed.
Maybe you should try reading a little more carefully the next time you feel the need to disagree me.
This is true but the Andrastian response to this reality is to blatantly ignore it. Many of them ignore them or simply say that "I have faith" or give some pathetic self serving interpretation.
The same is true of Inquisitors who choose to be devoutly Andrastian. The revelations did not affect them in the slightest.
Yet Elven Inquisitors are expected to feel regret, sorrow and heartbroken when they learn the truth about their faith as well as endure ridicule and mockery from others for their faith.
Why can't Andrastian Inquisitors express regret, sorrow and heartbreak as they slowly learn the truth about their religion and why can't a non-Andrastian Inquisitor pull a Sera or a Solas towards the Andrastians and mock them when they learn the reality of Andrastianism ?
Why is it that we have both Andrastianism and Creator worship being discredit yet the Creator worshiper is railroaded into being negative about it whereas the Andrastian can say "FAITH !" and be done with it ? Why can't an Elven Inquisitor say something like:- "Not all of the Creators are evil, Solas made a mistake locking them all up." or say "Some of the Creators might be evil but they did not start out that way and you, Fen'Harel, destroyed our civilization. Truly, you are a harellan."
That could have balanced things out just fine. IRL, Zeus has done plenty of bad things and so did Odin. The avatars of Vishnu such as Krishna and Rama made plenty of mistakes and Rama treated his wife like shite. Shiva the Destroyer burned Kama the God of Love in his wrath and gave his blessings to the demon Raavana. Yet these deities are worshiped by many worldwide (not sure about Zeus or Odin but Hindu gods like Shiva, Krisha and Rama have lots of worshipers worldwide). As you point out, that the whole deal with faith.
Why is only the Andrastians that are allowed to have faith and be faithful despite all the happens to their religion but the rest are not ? That is most definitely favoritism.
Hey my Dalish Inqui got to meet his favorite Goddess , who was overall nice "You do the people proud" .
Actually answered his prayers , she did help save the world.
You can ask her why she remained hidden from the Dalish , and she doesn't laugh at you or anything.She seems regretful about some unknown stuff.
He got to meet ancient elves who were living among those Gods...granted they were a bit sour.
He got tricked by the Elven God trickster .
Andrastian player , what did they get..."The Dawn will Come oh yeah yeah yeah...." "You are now the Herald of Andraste! " "But it wasn't Andraste in the Fade! " "Sshhh child the spirit told you believe what you want to believe."
I'd say the Andrastian player got the bad deal here and not the other way around.
*snip*
Andrastian player , what did they get..."The Dawn will Come oh yeah yeah yeah...." "You are now the Herald of Andraste! " "But it wasn't Andraste in the Fade! " "Sshhh child the spirit told you believe what you want to believe."
I'd say the Andrastian player got the bad deal here and not the other way around.
I lol-ed hard at that. Let me share something that happened when I was RP-ing my Mage Lavellan.
Thamry Lavellan was dumbfounded when he saw these Humans breaking out into a chant / song. As the First, when the Clan has been forced to evacuate a particular place, the most sensible thing to do is to practice thrifty resource management, make sure everyone survives through sensible food allocations and medical assistance to those who have problems, send some of the Hunters to scout out the area ahead and make sure its clear for the rest of the clan and move on to a next settlement location.
He was trained to lead a clan after all. Yet, here are these Humans with their "Dawn Will Come" nonsense. The only reason he did not facepalm at the moment was because Solas called him away from all that to talk about the Orb and Skyhold.
It was one of the reasons he readily accepted the role of Inquisitor. In his mind, all it takes is one defeat and the Humans are already going nuts. So he realized that he should step up and be the "Keeper" of the "Inquisition clan" because the rest of the Humans don't look like they are capable of doing so.
WTF?
Yet another BOO HOO Elves are not presented as perfect innocent victims of human brutality Bioware is Biased against Elves tis time with a slant being elven beliefs are not enshrined as true and wonderful and perfect. LMFAO It is these post of rabid fans of the DA setting time and time again make targets of themselves for acting and behaving like fools. There are no innocents, they never promised that they wouldn't reveal the nature of Elven myths and now that they have you are crying that bioware is biased because of it? WTF?
What the hell is it with rabid mage fans and rabid elf fans of this series? Is it too challenging for people to grasp that there are no innocence in Dragon age? That no one actually holds a monopoly of truth? OMG my wonderful perfect Elves started the war of the Dales Bioware sucks. OH no my investment in elven mythology turns out to be misguided Bioware sucks.
Sure everything was fine when your precious elves were the perfect innocents which they never actually where you just can't deny the truth any more. And because the story is literally about a reformation within the Chantry Bioware is being a big fat meanie to my precious elves. I love how you shape the narrative of Bioware is Biased by how it is so terrible that the faith Dwarves or Elves have gets shaken to the core but the turn around in the same paragraph and whine that it doesn't change NPCs when we see Andrastian beliefs are shown to be wrong are worse misguided at best. WTF? You do realise that your complaint actually disproves the favouritism you claim.
You have NEVER had full agency in any BIOWARE RPG you are never going to be given full agency. You likewise were given constant opportunities in DA:I to disbelieve religious aspects of your position. WAH WAH WAH But I wanted to delve into a theological debate with NPCS, because bioware never gave me this chance they are hypocrites and Biased. Wah wah wah.
Seriously I am 90% sure this is nothing but a troll post because it is so poorly thought out it ignores blatant options the player has in DA:I to be a disbeliever and proceeds to go on a tirade oh I can't do X Y and Z boo hoo. Sorry but your agency in every bloody RPG is LIMITED. Get over it. It is an imaginary religion it is childish to get angry at the game for telling the story about the Andrastianism reformation and you can't choose to destroy the faith. Boo hoo for you.
I have zero sympathy for Rapid Elf fans and Rabid mage fans they are so fraking neck deep in their own biases that they can't come to terms with the facts mages are not innocent victims nor are elves. There are no perfect golden groups in Thedas they are all wrong and flawed and do evil to others. Boo hoo you can't handle a MATURE setting with no golden 'children' suck it up.
Yes, uncertainty and faith is the cornerstone of Andrastianism with many evidence to support such a claim. However, Bioware makes an Andrastian's uncertainty and faith as virtues even though they clearly are not virtues.
Leliana, Sebastian, Cassandra, Giselle, devout Andrastian Inquisitors, etc are all shown to be very faithful and pious people and Bioware holds faithfulness demonstrated by these people as virtuous. Yet, when you try to point out the inconsistencies of their faith, the criticism is ignored. However, Bioware does not extend the same courtesy to non-Andrastian Elves, Dwarves, and Qunari for that matter. For example, a non-Andrastian Elf is treated at best, a naive ignoramus or at worst, like fecal matter.
All I am saying is that in the next game, Andrastians should get the fecal matter treatment that non-Andrastian Elves got in Inquisition because there is, frankly, an overwhelming amount of dirt on Andrastianism that is pushed under the rug, relegated to Codex entries or World of Thedas entries and never brought up in game with other characters. The inconsistency about the woman being Andraste ? Mostly ignored. The reality that it was not Maker who made the Veil ? We did not get to see the Andrastian response. The reality that Southern Chantry is not Andrastianism, but rather Drakonism ? Completely ignored and you can't even bring it up, even with Ameridan who was there when Drakon was being a warmonger.
Bioware has said, time and again, that they wish to create a fantasy world where everyone and their cultural systems are flawed in some way. So why can't the flaws in the Andrastian Human cultural system be depicted as it actually is ? Why must it be relegated to Codex entries and World of Thedas sections ? Why can't Andrastians get a dose of "your faith is flawed" when non-Andrastians like the Dalish and the Old God worshipers get it ?
I really think this is a sort of 'wait for the series to continue further' sort of thing.
The Inquisitor and co. doesn't do the sorts of things you want them to do, oh well. This is the Inquisition chapter. There will be more.
Religion and in particular the Chantry is just questioned and reformed in DAI. Oh well, there will be more.
They can only do so much. Has it occured to you that DAI is to build up Andrastanism before future games (relatively) tear it down?
North is Tevinter.
North is earlier Maker worship.
North is Rivain hedge magic.
North is Qunari.
North is Old Gods and Darkspawn.
North are (mostly) human cultures that pay even more of just lip service to the Chantry than even Orlais and such.
Its like, okay, we got the Skyhold near the Temple of Sacred Ashes and the Val Royeaux seat of the Chantry. We got that. Is it really such a surprise that Bioware wanted to try to do an (relatively) uplifting story about those who worship the Maker and Andraste? About those who feel righteous in a cause about it all?
We're not going to get all RP options we want at all times for all games. We got an Inquisitor that is at the very least inspired enough by the goings on around them that, yeah, they don't step out to be the bitter anti-Chantry/Andraste critic. That's not the Inquisitor character, just as the Warden (at least eventually) isn't allowed to go "Screw you all, I didn't ask for this, the Wardens are creepy and corrupt and I want out of this crap coercion to 'save the world' from Blights." That's not the Warden. There's limitations.
We get other characters and I'm ALMOST 100% CERTAIN that the next protagonist will have a DIFFERENT take and story when it comes to Andraste. 100%. Things could even be INVERSE of DAI. Instead of being 'faithful or tolerant of faith' we could get 'unfaithful or tolerant of unfaith'. We could end up with a whole setup where its a friggin stuggle to play things even somewhat Andrastan, as we're surrounded by challenging discoveries, character POVs, and events - while the Elven gods appear and show an actually godly splendor.
Just be a little patient, is all I guess I'm saying?
Andrastian player , what did they get..."The Dawn will Come oh yeah yeah yeah...." "You are now the Herald of Andraste! " "But it wasn't Andraste in the Fade! " "Sshhh child the spirit told you believe what you want to believe."
I'd say the Andrastian player got the bad deal here and not the other way around.
Yet, the Andrastian player didn't get his whole faith destroyed when discovered the gods s/he worships were as evil as the humans who enslaved his/her ancestors, and enslaved his people in a way that even the Tevinter Imperium of old looks like a nation of saints. Ah, those tattoos you use to revere your gods? Slavery marks.
Yeah, you, member of a race that lost everything to slavers, had been worshipping slaver gods as well. And the other characters (Sera and such) actually laugh at you for that.
At least the Andrastian have the "believe want you want" and people not mocking at him/her for that.
I respectfully disagree. I think there's a stark difference in how the Andrastian faith is treated in comparison to the faith of the Dalish.
The narrative has us hear that they aren't gods and that they're apparently one-dimensional villainous caricatures. I'd say that disproves the elven religion.
I view that a little differently. Villainous? Yeah, it was going there. But it seems it wasn't always that way, and for all we know, we could get a story that adds deeper context on how the corruption happened to them.
In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if we find good arguments on how the Evanuris even continue to attempt to help the Dalish from beyond the Veil.
I don't think Bioware's out to utterly disprove or prove any Thedosian culture. I think they want to have characters believe and act on things.
I respectfully disagree. I think there's a stark difference in how the Andrastian faith is treated in comparison to the faith of the Dalish.
The narrative has us hear that they aren't gods and that they're apparently one-dimensional villainous caricatures. I'd say that disproves the elven religion.
I view that a little differently. Villainous? Yeah, it was going there. But it seems it wasn't always that way, and for all we know, we could get a story that adds deeper context on how the corruption happened to them.
In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if we find good arguments on how the Evanuris even continue to attempt to help the Dalish from beyond the Veil.
I don't think Bioware's out to utterly disprove or prove any Thedosian culture. I think they want to have characters believe and act on things. Cultures/civilizations can have warped mirrors of history, lack knowledge or insight, but they may also provide accurate mirrors of history, and provide knowledge or insight. That the Dalish have a pretty messed up view of parts of history doesn't surprise me at all - so does the Chantry. We still have plenty of room for the Dalish to be switched around in the next game or two to even being outright virtuous as a culture.
If there's one thing I think DAI offered, it was a semi-refresh of the lore (not exactly, but in the way that a splash of water refreshes) and establishment of Thedas, allowing a greater foundation for concepts to be explored in all sorts of different ways in future games. I just wouldn't be so certain that Bioware's out on a trip to destroy the Dalish, for example, with every game from now on.
The difference is between the knowledge we received and how our reaction to it is allowed to be expressed in game. Words are so often put into our mouths or our objections are briefly put down. I don't feel it is a prejudice against the Dalish religion but a prejudice against religion as a whole in the real world that makes the portrayal of religion in this one something of a parody.
The Dalish gods are shown not to be gods in the accepted sense in our world, so in the world of Thedas you are steered into thinking that the Dalish have got it wrong and because they are not the benign creatures you thought they were, clearly Solas was in the right about locking them away, just at fault in not anticipating the adverse effects. Solas claims to his followers that they are the "same as you or I". Even in his time that was not the case and In Exile is quite correct in saying that in terms of modern Thedosians they are far above what even Tevinter can do in terms of magic. Yet they have Dorian also saying that really they are just Magisters. Clearly they are not. However, what we are also not allowed to do is ask who exactly that term of Evanuris encompassed? The Dalish belief is that he shut away 2 sets of gods. One of those sets of gods were considered evil by the Dalish You are just asked to assume that the term Evanuris only applied to the Creators and that they were responsible for her death. We have two people, Abelas and Solas, saying that Mythal was murdered but merely Solas giving guilt to a collective group. The only piece of evidence in favour of the Creators we are given is their own words against Solas, which you can miss. Yet it is only used in support of your discovery that he is Fen'Harel, not as something you can use to question how they viewed him. How did he entrap them? Our legends claim they trusted you, yet clearly they did not. What exactly happened? Why did they kill Mythal? Solas claims it was because they were drunk on power, yet all the evidence up to then suggested they accepted her judgements. What changed? Did something happen to them that made them behave as they did? If they were so bad, why did it take so long for you to do anything about it? I seem to recall that you like "the heady blend of power, intrigue, danger and sex". I am being asked to question my entire belief system on insufficient evidence, being steered by the nose and then the god (for that is what he is in terms of power) dismisses me, after which I am meant to make a snap judgement on how I wish to deal with this person. It is the Star Child all over again, particularly if you played the end of ME3 before they did the revamp.
Meanwhile, over in the Maker's camp, whilst I can express doubts, confess to being a fraud and generally lose all faith in the religion that is being constantly promoted by my advisors and others, no one else seems bothered by the issues at all. It is all a matter of faith. Even when everything that has happened seems to repudiate that faith. I'm not talking about the Maker here. I'll accept you can't prove him one way or the other. However, the Chantry's depiction of him is something that they play around with to suit the situation. Giselle outright argues that Andraste's words on magic should be seen in context and everyone happily seems to dismiss 800 years of prejudice against mages and magic by the Chantry as something that can now be simply changed. According to WoT the number one article of faith in the Chantry is "Magic is a corrupting influence in the world". This of course is totally contrary to what Andraste says in the Chant but the fact is that is what has been taught. Yet we are asked to believe that simply because Vivienne is good at the Game, they vote in a MAGE as Divine or were even willing to consider her as candidate. It just blew my mind when that happened on one play through because I hadn't even seen it coming (not having spoken enough to Vivienne to get the vote for me option on the War Table). Where is the entire breakdown of faith in the Chantry as this occurrence? Yet people apparently get more upset about Leliana throwing open the priesthood to other races and replacing the Canticle of Shartan. Then on top of this you have the discovery that the elven gods are real, Solas created the Veil, he imprisoned the elven gods (not the Maker), the world and the Fade were all one once and there were a lot of creations that spanned both realities, among other things.
I've never much reckoned the Chantry as a religion seeing as from DAO we were informed how they blatantly play around with the Chant to suit their politics and there was a clear contradiction between what Andraste said and their interpretation of it. Still I could accept how the common people would have faith in it even if the nobles did totally disregard its moral teaching. However, by the end of Trespasser I feel there have just been too many revelations and too many contradictions that there wouldn't at least be some sort of Thedas wide rejection of the organisation or a new "Protestant" Chantry. I don't feel it sufficient that we may now go north to Tevinter and discover the truth there, much less end up destroying faith in the Imperial Chantry whilst leaving the southern one untouched.
I really don't see much of a reason to think Solas is off base about the Evanuris, he was there and knew them personally, after all. The message of the Sanctuary of the Dread Wolf was that the Evanuris were specifically not fundamentally different from the rest of their kind.
Actually, what Cassandra did was incredibly crude. Would anyone here seriously ask someone of a different faith to accommodate their religious beliefs to share your own? You don't ask someone who is Jewish if they can make room for Jesus, for example.
Sometimes you do, but typically only when you consider yourself to have good mutual respect with that person. People's particular religious beliefs are not actually as set in stone as any religious institution officially supposes.
Maybe Bioware hasn't made clear to enough players that its super duper hard for Cassandra and the Inquisitor (not the player, the Inquisitor) to not at least have high respect for each other, allowing themselves to have these sorts of conversations.
Cassandra may be 'devoutly Andrastan', but she is also reformist (that comes with a degree of questioning to the very institutions she is part of) , and she also is, in my opinion, supposed to show a positive portrayal of faith - the idea that it comes with healthy doubt but embodies the continued overcoming of that doubt.
So she may be asking that line because she herself does not find it offensive if she was asked the opposite in turn ("Is there not room for several more?"). She wouldn't agree with that line of questioning, but she seems to accept that there will be many views out there, and just that its her job to positively promote what she considers to be the true way. I really think Cassandra has no issue with Dalish believing only in the Dalish gods - other than that she thinks that the Maker is the true one to be followed.
It was also annoying at times to have words put into your mouth concerning the Dalish and their beliefs. I felt the worst one was when my Solas romance was forced to say "So that's just another thing we got wrong." I didn't feel that way at all. At this point there seemed so much we had got right. Our gods were confirmed to have existed after all, which previously was open to doubt. The revelations by Solas in Trespasser seemed to confirm so much more. I didn't have a problem with them revealing what they did about the Evanuris, although I did wonder why they suddenly started calling them by a different name and still wonder just how many gods that term encompasses. What was more significant, though, was the implications for the Chantry faith because what Solas had revealed was way more significant than whether I was really the Herald or not. You would think there would be a Chantry Mother or sister somewhere who would be saying "I am left to question all I have been taught." In a way I'm glad I was a sceptical elf from the outset because if I had been a pious Andrastrian I would have been having a real crisis of faith.
I think, like I've indicated in previous post (sorry for spamming), that this is just the case of the Inquisitor being the Inquisitor - still with certain set parameters. It really isn't necessarily that the 'Dalish got it wrong', period, but that the Inquisitor Elf is a character to say this at that point in their journey. One way or another, we at least lean Generally Slightly Andrastan Sympathetic in DAI. IMO this won't always be the case in the whole series.
And yes, that is counteracted by various things that should make any Andrastan Inquisitor have worries. Things that have them have to twist at least *something* around to make their faith continue to 'work'.
I'm not even gonna touch on Dwarven "religion", which seems like something that really didn't even seem to exist before Inquisition in the same way Inquisition handles it (heck, Origins even has "narrative" text claiming the Dwarves don't have a religion at all...this isn't exactly how its portrayed, but still).
That said, with regards to the Elves, I'm firmly of the opinion that Bioware never should've delved as directly into the Elven mythologies in the first place. But I don't see how screwing up the belief in the "Maker" undoes the problem that they've created. Ruining one "religion" doesn't un-ruin the other. If anything, it just means we end up with rehashed plot points. And given that those sorts of plot points are a tired enough cliche as it is, I'd just rather they let this play out and then leave well enough alone.
This is basically my exact perspective on this matter, too.
I really don't see much of a reason to think Solas is off base about the Evanuris, he was there and knew them personally, after all. The message of the Sanctuary of the Dread Wolf was that the Evanuris were specifically not fundamentally different from the rest of their kind.
If we believe in Solas because "he was there", then we have to believe in Corypheus for the same reason. Yet, every NPC disregard Corypheus as a liar who tell that stuff to "forget his sin". While Solas words are taken by those NPCs as a fact.
I don't have problem with they destroying the elven religion, but I would like to see that also in the andrastian one. Mostly because we've seen so many revelations in Inquisition that, if that would happen IRL, it would be destroying even the christianity. Yet, andrastianism endures because "faith".
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