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[Bayonet Hipshot]

The difference is between the knowledge we received and how our reaction to it is allowed to be expressed in game.   Words are so often put into our mouths or our objections are briefly put down.     I don't feel it is a prejudice against the Dalish religion but a prejudice against religion as a whole in the real world that makes the portrayal of religion in this one something of a parody.   

 

The Dalish gods are shown not to be gods in the accepted sense in our world, so in the world of Thedas you are steered into thinking that the Dalish have got it wrong and because they are not the benign creatures you thought they were, clearly Solas was in the right about locking them away, just at fault in not anticipating the adverse effects.   Solas claims to his followers that they are the "same as you or I".   Even in his time that was not the case and In Exile is quite correct in saying that in terms of modern Thedosians they are far above what even Tevinter can do in terms of magic.   Yet they have Dorian also saying that really they are just Magisters.   Clearly they are not.    However, what we are also not allowed to do is ask who exactly that term of Evanuris encompassed?   The Dalish belief is that he shut away 2 sets of gods.   One of those sets of gods were considered evil by the Dalish   You are just asked to assume that the term Evanuris only applied to the Creators and that they were responsible for her death.   We have two people, Abelas and Solas, saying that Mythal was murdered but merely Solas giving guilt to a collective group.   The only piece of evidence in favour of the Creators we are given is their own words against Solas, which you can miss.   Yet it is only used in support of your discovery that he is Fen'Harel, not as something you can use to question how they viewed him.   How did he entrap them?   Our legends claim they trusted you, yet clearly they did not.   What exactly happened?  Why did they kill Mythal?   Solas claims it was because they were drunk on power, yet all the evidence up to then suggested they accepted her judgements.   What changed?    Did something happen to them that made them behave as they did?   If they were so bad, why did it take so long for you to do anything about it?   I seem to recall that you like "the heady blend of power, intrigue, danger and sex".    I am being asked to question my entire belief system on insufficient evidence, being steered by the nose and then the god (for that is what he is in terms of power) dismisses me, after  which I am meant to make a snap judgement on how I wish to deal with this person.    It is the Star Child all over again, particularly if you played the end of ME3 before they did the revamp. 

 

Meanwhile, over in the Maker's camp, whilst I can express doubts, confess to being a fraud and generally lose all faith in the religion that is being constantly promoted by my advisors and others, no one else seems bothered by the issues at all.    It is all a matter of faith.    Even when everything that has happened seems to repudiate that faith.   I'm not talking about the Maker here.   I'll accept you can't prove him one way or the other.   However, the Chantry's depiction of him is something that they play around with to suit the situation.   Giselle outright argues that Andraste's words on magic should be seen in context and everyone happily seems to dismiss 800 years of prejudice against mages and magic by the Chantry as something that can now be simply changed.   According to WoT the number one article of faith in the Chantry is "Magic is a corrupting influence in the world".   This of course is totally contrary to what Andraste says in the Chant but the fact is that is what has been taught.   Yet we are asked to believe that simply because Vivienne is good at the Game, they vote in a MAGE as Divine or were even willing to consider her as candidate.   It just blew my mind when that happened on one play through because I hadn't even seen it coming (not having spoken enough to Vivienne to get the vote for me option on the War Table).    Where is the entire breakdown of faith in the Chantry as this occurrence?    Yet people apparently get more upset about Leliana throwing open the priesthood to other races and replacing the Canticle of Shartan.    Then on top of this you have the discovery that the elven gods are real, Solas created the Veil, he imprisoned the elven gods (not the Maker), the world and the Fade were all one once and there were a lot of creations that spanned both realities, among other things.  

 

I've never much reckoned the Chantry as a religion seeing as from DAO we were informed how they blatantly play around with the Chant to suit their politics and there was a clear contradiction between what Andraste said and their interpretation of it.   Still I could accept how the common people would have faith in it even if the nobles did totally disregard its moral teaching.     However, by the end of Trespasser I feel there have just been too many revelations and too many contradictions that there wouldn't at least be some sort of Thedas wide rejection of the organisation or a new "Protestant" Chantry.      I don't feel it sufficient that we may now go north to Tevinter and discover the truth there, much less end up destroying faith in the Imperial Chantry whilst leaving the southern one untouched.   

 

QFT,
 

[SwobyJ]

No, it's not. If they've "dismantled" anything it's to explore it. The Chant says the Maker created the Veil? Nope, that's a lie. The Chant says the Maker dwells in the Golden City? Nope, that's a lie. Popular opinion is that the Inquisitor was rescued by Andraste? Nope, that's a lie.

It's not different than saying the Creators aren't what you thought they were.

 

The Chant never says that the Maker created the Veil. However, the Maker, for all we can have faith about, may have created what the Veil is made up of.

 

The Maker is supposedly revealed to not dwell in the Golden City. However, for all the possibilities revealed to us, the Maker could have been on another realm of perception of the City all along.

 

The Inquisitor is supposedly not rescued by Andraste. However, for all possibilities revealed to us, whatever may exist as Andraste may have worked through what the Inquisitor experienced (thus metaphorically 'saving' the Inquisitor).

 

Plenty of ways to deny Andrastanism and/or the Chantry and/or the Chant and/or this newer Herald idea, but plenty of ways to consider faith in something better/else.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

If we believe in Solas because "he was there", then we have to believe in Corypheus for the same reason. Yet, every NPC disregard Corypheus as a liar who tell that stuff to "forget his sin". While Solas words are taken by those NPCs as purely fact.

 

I don't have problem with they destroying the elven religion, but I would like to see that also in the andrastian one. Mostly because we seen so many revelations in Inquisition that, if that happens IRL, would be destroying even the christianity.

 

Corypheus doesn't have the most sound mental sate, and also seems to change his story. 

 

Frankly, I think people are overstating just how "discredited" Andrastianism was by this game's story, but as some people have said, if that were the case, doesn't that undermine this thread's claim? How can there be a double standard if both religions are shown to be false? How can Andrastianism be destroyed if there's actually an unfair bias in favor of preserving it?

 

EDIT: By the way, just as a side note (given that it was mentioned a couple times), the Maker not living in the Golden City is exactly what the Chant says. He had supposedly already abandoned it by the time the magisters breached it.

[Zero]

According to Threnodies, the Maker sealed himself in the Golden City after the Original Sin. And then talks to the Magisters Sidereal when they corrupted the City with their Sin, so the City wasn't as abandoned as the rest of the Chant claim. Unless this is another inconsistency in their dogma.

 

http://dragonage.wik...e_of_Threnodies

 

Back to topic, my problem on how Andrastianism is treated in this game is not that the religion wasn't destroyed, but that there are no realistic reactions to the discoveries made by the Inquisitor in this game. You can say that monotheism is based on faith and that cannot be disproved, and that may be true IRL, but in a world where you can go to the Dream Realm, have magic and can talk with a guy from the time the Chantry was in its infancy, that those revelations don't had any consequence or al least some reactions from NPCs beyond "lalala, I see nothing, this isn't what I believe. FAITH!" is illogical.

[In Exile]

Corypheus doesn't have the most sound mental sate, and also seems to change his story. 

 

Frankly, I think people are overstating just how "discredited" Andrastianism was by this game's story, but as some people have said, if that were the case, doesn't that undermine this thread's claim? How can there be a double standard if both religions are shown to be false? How can Andrastianism be destroyed if there's actually an unfair bias in favor of preserving it?

 

EDIT: By the way, just as a side note (given that it was mentioned a couple times), the Maker not living in the Golden City is exactly what the Chant says. He had supposedly already abandoned it by the time the magisters breached it.

You have to appreciate that some of us in this thread are atheists. The very concept of Andrastrianism, in that regard, is just conceptually suspect and already on shaky ground as even being capable of being "credited" so to speak. The degree to which its doctrinal claims are factually disproven in, among other places, DA:I (or rather the extent to which the faith basically abandons that doctrine to create post-hoc explanations to preserve itself) is just the clearest example of how it is, ultimately, vacuous nonsense. 

 

Ultimately, I can't help but view religious doctrine and faith through this analytical lens. This is why I'm disinclined to say anything we see about the Evanuris disproves them from being gods - apart from maybe the Titans, they are by far the closest things to gods in the setting. In particular, I think this a priori, definitional notion of "divinity" that people claim separates gods from superpowered beings is not just gibberish, but arguably directly falsifiable in DA based on the indirect evidence we have as to the supernatural nature of the elves and spirits (and arguable the spirits-become-flesh that some think the elves originally were). 

 

Personally, I am far more inclined to say the Evanuris are "gods" in the literal sense than the Maker, that basically sounds like a made-up nonsense being even by the internal logic of Andrastianism. 

[Reznore57]

 

Back to topic, my problem on how Andrastianism is treated in this game is not that the religion wasn't destroyed, but that there are no realistic reactions to the discoveries made by the Inquisitor in this game. You can say that monotheism is based on faith and that cannot be disproved, and that may be true IRL, but in a world where you can go to the Dream Realm, have magic and can talk with a guy from the time the Chantry was in its infancy, that those revelations don't had any consequence or al least some reactions from NPCs beyond "lalala, I see nothing, this isn't what I believe. FAITH!" is illogical.

 

There's no revelation.

Andraste and the Maker not being involved is fine , they didn't swear to save humanity anytime some catastrophe happens.The Maker can brood all he wants , him being sour is part of the myth.

They are supposed to come through the day it will be total apocalypse...and with the Maker knowing everything he'd know when people need saving and when people can take care of themselves.

 

The main weak link and where we should get some stuff is the Golden City and the ancient elves.They were aware of the city...but there's no talk of any "Maker".

Mythal is fighting the Blight and it seems somewhat personal to her ...which doesn't make sense with the Chant of Light and what we know of ancient elves.There's no reason why an elven goddess would care that much .She has already been murdered and her empire and people already crumbled from inner fighting when Tevinter messed up.

[The Elder King]

Mythal caring to stop the Blight might be about just stopping a world-class threat.
Though her knowledge on the Old Gods' souls, combined with the fen'harel reveal and his actions, and the myth of the Forgotten ones being sealed underground support the theory that the latter might be the Old Gods.

[Ahriman]

The Chant never says that the Maker created the Veil. However, the Maker, for all we can have faith about, may have created what the Veil is made up of.

Huh? What is it then?

The Maker realized His own folly: He had created the spirits to resemble Him in all but the one and most important way: they did not have a spark of the divine within them. He expelled all the spirits out of the Golden City and into the Fade and proceeded to His next creation: life.
The Maker created the world and the living beings upon it, separated from the Fade by the Veil. His new children would be unable to shape the world around them and thus would need to struggle to survive. In return for their struggle, the Maker gave them the spark of the divine, a soul, and He watched with pleasure as His creations flourished and showed all the ingenuity that He had hoped for.

[Reznore57]

Huh? What is it then?

 

It's from a book written by an Enchanter in 8:12 Blessed.Not the Chant of Light.

 

Edit : link not working properly

Anyway here's the whole codex

 

Spoiler

The Maker's first creations were the spirits, glorious beings that populated the many spires of the Golden City, and the Chant of Light says that they revered the Maker with unquestioning devotion. The Maker, however, was dissatisfied. Although the spirits were like Him in that they could manipulate the ether and create from it, they did not do so. They had no urge to create, and even when instructed to do so possessed no imagination to give their creations ingenuity or life.

The Maker realized His own folly: He had created the spirits to resemble Him in all but the one and most important way: they did not have a spark of the divine within them. He expelled all the spirits out of the Golden City and into the Fade and proceeded to His next creation: life.

The Maker created the world and the living beings upon it, separated from the Fade by the Veil. His new children would be unable to shape the world around them and thus would need to struggle to survive. In return for their struggle, the Maker gave them the spark of the divine, a soul, and He watched with pleasure as His creations flourished and showed all the ingenuity that He had hoped for.

The spirits grew jealous of the living and coaxed from them into the Fade when they slept. The spirits wished to know more of life, hoping to find a way to regain the Maker's favor. Through the eyes of the living, they experienced new concepts: love, fear, pain, and hope. The spirits re-shaped the Fade to resemble the lives and concepts they saw, each spirit desperately trying to bring the most dreamers to their own realm so they could vicariously posses a spark of the divine through them.

As the spirits grew in power, however, some of them became contemptuous of the living. These were the spirits that saw the darkest parts of the dreamers. Their lands were places of torment and horror, and they knew that the living were strongly drawn to places that mirrored those dark parts of themselves. These spirits questioned the Maker's wisdom and proclaimed the living inferior. They learned from the darkness they saw and became the first demons.

Rage, hunger, sloth, desire, pride: These are the dark parts of the soul that give demons their power, the hooks they use to claw their way into the world of the living. It was demons that whispered into the minds of men, convincing them to turn from the Maker and worship false gods. They seek to possess all life as their due, forging kingdoms of nightmare in the Fade in the hopes of one day storming the walls of heaven itself.

And the Maker despaired once again, for He had given the power of creation to his new children—and in return they had created sin.

-- From The Maker's First Children, By Bader, Senior Enchanter of Ostwick, 8:12 Blessed.

[In Exile]

Huh? What is it then?

 

Proof that Solas is the Maker?

 

Edit: Being serious for a moment there are plenty of passages in the Chant about the Veil and Maker:

 

From Erudition 2:1:

 

The first of the Maker's children watched across the Veil And grew jealous of the life They could not feel, could not touch. In blackest envy were the demons born.

 

And from Threnodies 5: 

 

The children of the Maker gathered Before his golden throne And sang hymns of praise unending. But their songs Were the songs of the cobblestones. They shone with the golden light Reflected from the Maker's throne. They held forth the banners That flew on their own.

 

And the Voice of the Maker shook the Fade Saying: In My image I have wrought My firstborn. You have been given dominion Over all that exists. By your will All things are done. Yet you do nothing. The realm I have given you Is formless, ever-changing.

 

And He knew he had wrought amiss. So the Maker turned from his firstborn And took from the Fade A measure of its living flesh And placed it apart from the Spirits, and spoke to it, saying: Here, I decree Opposition in all things: For earth, sky For winter, summer For darkness, Light. By My Will alone is Balance sundered And the world given new life.

 

And no longer was it formless, ever-changing, But held fast, immutable, With Words for heaven and for earth, sea and sky. At last did the Maker From the living world Make men. Immutable, as the substance of the earth, With souls made of dream and idea, hope and fear, Endless possibilities.

 

You can read the rest of it in the DA wiki, but to me that reads like the Maker creating the Veil. 

[The Elder King]

Proof that Solas is the Maker?

Yeah, it sounds reasonable at this point. And the elven and Andrastian myths always had points in common to begin with.

[Ahriman]

It's from a book written by an Enchanter in 8:12 Blessed.Not the Chant of Light.

It's based on Canticle of Threnodies, which is a part of Chant. What are you trying to say?

[In Exile]

Yeah, it sounds reasonable at this point. And the elven and Andrastian myths always had points in common to begin with.

 

The timeline doesn't actually work, I think. It makes sense that humans would roll a bunch of figures into one (assuming they even existed pre-Veil), such as e.g. whatever ended up being trapped in the Golden City (e.g. a corrupt Titan) and the fundamental change of the world perpetrated by Solas (raising the Veil). 

[The Elder King]

The timeline doesn't actually work, I think. It makes sense that humans would roll a bunch of figures into one (assuming they even existed pre-Veil), such as e.g. whatever ended up being trapped in the Golden City (e.g. a corrupt Titan) and the fundamental change of the world perpetrated by Solas (raising the Veil).

Which timeline do you think doesn't work?

[Bayonet Hipshot]

According to Threnodies, the Maker sealed himself in the Golden City after the Original Sin. And then talks to the Magisters Sidereal when they corrupted the City with their Sin, so the City wasn't as abandoned as the rest of the Chant claim. Unless this is another inconsistency in their dogma.

 

http://dragonage.wik...e_of_Threnodies

 

Back to topic, my problem on how Andrastianism is treated in this game is not that the religion wasn't destroyed, but that there are no realistic reactions to the discoveries made by the Inquisitor in this game. You can say that monotheism is based on faith and that cannot be disproved, and that may be true IRL, but in a world where you can go to the Dream Realm, have magic and can talk with a guy from the time the Chantry was in its infancy, that those revelations don't had any consequence or al least some reactions from NPCs beyond "lalala, I see nothing, this isn't what I believe. FAITH!" is illogical.

An excellent point. The whole "la la la, Maker in unknowable, FAITH !" shindig might work in real life where there is no Fade or no magic but that's not Thedas. 

[Al Foley]

Greetings. I would like to talk about what I think is the giant elephant in the room when it comes to Dragon Age games and that is Bioware's blatant favoritism towards Andrastianism. Bioware has repeatedly, time and again, under different Lead Writers (formerly David Gaider, currently Patrick Weekes) stated that they will never flat-out prove or disprove the existence of the Maker. However, in the same vein, Bioware has decided to do the complete opposite with the Dalish Pantheon and the Stone, whom we now know respectively as the Evanuris and the Titans.

 

This is blatant favoritism and bias towards the Maker because what this implies is that the Elves and Dwarves have to confront the reality of their faiths and be shaken by the reality of their faiths but Andrastians are shielded from this. For example, the Andrastian's faith in the Maker and the Herald of Andraste is portrayed sympathetically throughout the game despite having no basis in fact, and even being proven wrong multiple times throughout the games such as as Adamant and in Trespasser. The Andrastian narrative and characters such as Cassandra Pentaghast and Mother Giselle constantly lecture the protagonist, and by extension, the player about how faith is not and should not be based on reason or evidence; as long as choosing to believe in something gives people hope and purpose and that this is a good thing.

 

Meanwhile, the narrative and the characters constantly pour fecal matter all over the Elves for retaining faith in their religion and traditions despite having no evidence at first, and then basically keeps calling them stupid for retaining faith in their beliefs after it has been revealed that their religion and beliefs are not all based in strict fact. Worse still, while the truth is presented as being completely irrelevant to the value of faith for Andrastians, that same game turns around and acts like the truth behind the stories of Elves is what is really important, and the Elves are morons for deriving faith from something not factually true and thus should abandon their faiths and beliefs.

 

This is also done to an extent to the Dwarves who choose to believe in the Stone. The Dwarven Inquisition members that we have such as Lace Harding and Varric Tethras (in essence, the Dwarf representatives of the Inquisition to the player) are Andrastians (and Varric continually mocks the Dwarven faith) and the Dwarves that worship the Stone such as Valta and Renn are either killed off or vanish under mysterious circumstances. If the Dwarven protagonist choose to worship the Stone, he or she is either ignored or has their beliefs washed away by the Andrastian members of the Inquisition after a dialogue with Josephine in Haven since after that dialogue, your Dwarven faith is never brought up again, its all Herald of Andraste and the Maker ? Why can't the Dwarven protagonist see themselves as having the Ancestor's Blessing or the Blessing of the Stone ?

 

My question is why this double standard is present ? Why should one group of the faithful in Thedas be allowed to retain an almost naive and innocent perspective of their faith ("Andraste's Chant is familiar across kingdoms, a source of shared custom.." but the Elven Creators and the Dwarven Stone are not sources of shared customs ?) while the other groups are denied this ? Bioware has stated that it intends to make games where everyone is flawed in some way so why not portray the Maker and Andrastianism in the same critical light they portray the Evanuris ?

 

Frankly, there is plenty of dirt on the Maker and the Andrastian religion that is depicted in the Codex and in the World of Thedas but none of the protagonists we have had so far, be it the Hero of Ferelden or Champion of Kirkwall or the Inquisitor is allowed to bring it up in some way. From a critical perspective, we can see that the Maker is a narcissistic masochistic indifferent god who cannot stand dissent and practices adultery. As Morrigan put it eloquently, the Maker is "an absentee father figure..". He also turned his back from his creations because they did not act they way he wanted them to do so even though it was he who created them and gave them free will. Worse still, the Maker effectively steals the lawfully wed wife of a mortal man to claim as his own and then later, he lets her endure torture as well as immolation at the stake. Lastly, he stated that unless his followers spread his teachings all over the world, he will not return to them or really give much of a damn about them.

 

How is it that we can have Solas talk about Falon'Din's vanity but we cannot have anyone, not even the protagonist bring up the Maker's vanity and adulterous behavior ? The Maker's vanity to want his word to spread to all four corners of the world, which is no different from the Qun's doctrine to spread their teachings throughout the world, has caused tremendous loss of life, and massive conflicts, just like Falon'Din's vanity for adulation created oceans of his follower's blood. Furthermore, we know from multiple Codex entries that the Andrastian Chantry as we know it, is established nearly 200 years later after the death of Andraste by Kordillus Drakon I.  Drakon I used violent coercive force to push forth his version of the Chant, Maker, and Andraste while wiping out many others such as Daughters of Song and driving other such as Blades of Hessarian to obscurity. This means that Andrastianism as we know it today, is not brought about by Andraste's blessings or the Maker's will, it was created through intolerant violent coercive political force. Yet no protagonist is allowed or even given the option to bring this up.

 

I for one would have loved to confront Mother Giselle or Cassandra Pentaghast or Sera about how their Andrastianism is not actually the true vision of Andraste or the Maker since Andraste died 200 years before the Andrastian Chantry was formed, it is in fact the vision of Drakon I which is instituted through violence and coercion. It is also truly odd and hypocritical how the Andrastian Chantry frowns on and even ridicules its followers who have visions. To them, only Andraste's vision is the valid one but ironically, it was Drakon I who wrote the Canticle of Exaltations describing his visions. How is this not heresy but Leliana's visions, for example, are inappropriate or scorn-worthy ? Oh, that's right, because Drakon I was the one who created the Chantry through violent force so his visions are not in question.

 

I would have loved to have a protagonist confront the supposed Seeker of Truth (it should have been Seeker of Faith, not truth), the Revered Mother Giselle about how their religion is not what they say it is and deal with the consequences. I would have loved it if Lavellan could have confronted Ameridan about being friends with a violent warmonger like Drakon I (I can understand forming an alliance but Ameridan explicitly stated that Drakon I was one of his oldest friends) who is alienating multiple interpretations of Andraste's teachings (possibly even Ameridan's own interpretation of the Maker and Creators)  in order to consolidate his power.

 

The only thing we know with absolute certainty is that once upon a time, there existed a woman called Andraste from the Alamarri tribe. At a certain age, after her marriage with Maferath, she experienced something and soon, she called the visions from something as the Maker's wisdom and together with her husband and the tribes, they began a war against the Tevinter Imperium and along the way, the managed to secure an alliance and friendship with the Elves lead by Shartan. Later, due to Maferath's betrayal for unknown reasons (perhaps it is jealousy of the Maker, perhaps it is to prevent further loss of lives that he made a deal with the Imperium or perhaps it was both), Andraste was captured, tortured and burned at the stake by Archon Hessarian. Hessarian, for whatever reason, repented his actions and converted. This is all we genuinely know.

 

Yet somehow, Andraste's words such as "Magic exist to serve man, not to rule over him" has been twisted to mean locking up mages in specific buildings, having legions of gullible men and women (Templars) become addicted to a highly dangerous substance (Lyrium) to watch over these mages and near absolute control over mages, having an agreement with the Dwarves to restrict the trade of this dangerous addictive substance to keep the gullible legion on a leash and then on top that, having an elite team (Seekers of Truth) formed to watch over all this. Yet the protagonists cannot really bring this up.

 

In fact, Jaws of Hakkon DLC should very well allowed us to question the validity that Templars are part of the Chantry because we learn there that a Templar is simply a specific fighting style involving the usage of magical substance that can be addictive,  which is not very different from a Reaver. There is also the reality that Shartan and his teaching were removed and whitewashed away from the Chant of Light even though Andraste and Shartan, Human and Elf, fought side by side against the Imperium, despite the fact that there are many City Elves who are Andrastians.

 

So the reality of the situation is that Andrastianism and the Maker are as flawed as the Evanuris and their teachings as well as the Qun and their teachings and the Dwarves and their teachings. Yet, throughout the series, especially in Inquisition, Bioware has shown blatant favoritism, blatant protectionism, blatant obscurantism and blatant sacrosanct towards the Andrastians and the Andrastianism while not granting the same courtesy to the Elves who believe in the Evanuris, to the Dwarves who worship the Stone, to the Qunari who follow the Qun and even to those who worship the Old Gods. I mean, wanting to have your teachings spread to all four corners of the world in order to make your God give a damn about you or wanting to spread your teachings by force as dictated by your philosopher-founder to achieve some form of utopia is not very different to those who wish to enter the Golden City to gain power. For all we know, the majority of Old God worshipers probably just behave like Varric or Cassandra or Giselle or Leliana - They take the good stuff and ignore the crappy ones or deflect them with claims of faith or have their own individual interpretation.

 

If Bioware wish to portray all peoples, all religions and all gods as flawed in some way, then they should extend this courtesy to Andrastians and Andrastianism instead of sheltering them from the possibility that their faith is wrong or flawed. Heck, I would have loved to confront Andrastians at the end of Trespasser because according to Andrastianism, the Maker created Thedas and everything in it, including the Fade, Spirits, Veil before turning away. Yet in Trespasser, Solas mentions that it is he (and his agents) who were responsible for creating the Veil and we learn that there is an entire line of story about Thedas' origin that does not involve the Maker at all. I would have loved to ask Cassandra or Giselle or Sera if they are going to be worshipping Fen'Harel now since he created the Veil and since Maker created the Veil, therefore logically Fen'Harel should be seen as the Maker and see their response as they try to stammer and deflect that their religious teachings is wrong with claims of faith.

 

I often wonder if Bioware is simply engaging in Andrastian favoritism and protectionism because they are afraid of causing offense towards real world monotheistic religion such as Christianity, Judaism and Islam because criticism of Andrastianism can be seen by some as criticism of Christianity and some would take it further and see it as criticism of monotheism. I mean, we have see how Christians react to entertainment that is critical to their faith when you see their responses towards films such as Da Vinci Code,  Agora, and Passion of the Christ. Are they afraid of possibly losing sales or something ? In the same vein, I do wonder if Bioware has no problem with criticizing polytheism or animism because they know polytheists and animists don't really care or if because majority of Bioware developers are from Christian nations and therefore might have a problem with criticizing monotheism but have no problem with criticizing polytheism or animism ?

 

Anyway, these are my thoughts on the matter. I hope that Bioware address this favoritism in their upcoming games by giving us Human followers who are not Andrastians as well as proper Dwarven followers who believe in the Stone. The only one we have had so far is Morrigan and as for Dwarves, Oghren is not a shining example of Dwarves and Sigrun does not look like she is returning again. Likewise, they should allow the protagonist, Human or non-Human alike, to question the Andrastian faith, to be critical of the Andrastian faith and deal with the consequences such as accusations of heathenous blasphemy or a healthy philosophical debate or what have you.

 

Have a nice day and cheers. I am curious to hear your thoughts and comments on this matter.

 

To discuss the issue at hand though I would imagine that one of two things will happen.  A. its either a flat out lie when they say they will not say whether or not the Maker exists. B. with different changing in terms of corporate leadership, pressure, and writers it is likely while Pat Weekes et all has no intention of revealing the Maker's legitimacy one way or another but then someone else will make the decision to make that decision.  C. They won't give facts but they will strongly imply the existance of the Maker one way or another.  Personally I think its likely to be revealed, or again implied, that the Maker is a member of the Evanuris.  

 

But regardless this does not show an example of favoritism to Chantry or Andrastianism, quite the opposite in fact.  Its vagueness leaves it open to debate constantly, where them answering the question about the fact that these beings exist, Titans and the Evanuris, but can also be legitimately called gods.  BioWare has effectively legitimatized those two religions in a way, hence no real bias towards Andrastianism.  

[Wulfram]

An excellent point. The whole "la la la, Maker in unknowable, FAITH !" shindig might work in real life where there is no Fade or no magic but that's not Thedas.

I think Magic and the Fade leave a greater space for the unknown and unknowable and thus for God.

(At least until Magic and the Fade succumb to scientific study, which Solas's actions suggest might be possible. But that will just leave magic as little different from Electro-Magnetism, and still no real threat to belief in God)

[Elfyoth]

With huge respect for the essay you've written, i think the fact that this is a made up religion is always going to be the crunch point. That and the bulk of the story is in the human society, written by human writers. and as you say, i think some remedial work is done in the massive tomes that accompany the series.

"Written by human writers."? So are you telling me that ALL of the humans believe in a religion that is focused on the church? Not all of the humans are christian, with all due respect, there are a lot of muslims bodahistd etc, and even then its not all of them, there are the jews as well. Saying that the writers sre human does not mean that their religion is based on a church. And if you think that anyone that dosent have a religion that is based on a church, well that's racist. Adding to the fact that there may be writers that are not christians in bioware.

[In Exile]

I think Magic and the Fade leave a greater space for the unknown and unknowable and thus for God.

(At least until Magic and the Fade succumb to scientific study, which Solas's actions suggest might be possible. But that will just leave magic as little different from Electro-Magnetism, and still no real threat to belief in God)

To me it's the opposite - it's "If Aliens, then Jesus" logic. Magic isn't supernatural in a world where it exists - it's just a naural phenomenon. And it can be responsible for things we IRL would feel inclined to say is the product of a god (see again what Solas does with the world and Veil).

[Nocte ad Mortem]

As for "disproving the existence of the maker", there's no way to disprove the existence of the maker. They can disprove the existence or legitimacy of Andraste and the way she represented her connection with the maker, thus, undermining the legitimacy of Andrastrianism as an organized religion, but you can't prove or disprove the existence of an absent, omnipotent creator figure. I imagine they will provide evidence regarding the nature of Andraste (I think she was a mage) and what her real agenda was, but I think it won't reflect strongly on whether there is or isn't a maker. It will only effect the religion she created by allegedly speaking for him. 

[straykat]

I think people bring way too much of their own baggage to this.

[straykat]

As for "disproving the existence of the maker", there's no way to disprove the existence of the maker. They can disprove the existence or legitimacy of Andraste and the way she represented her connection with the maker, thus, undermining the legitimacy of Andrastrianism as an organized religion, but you can't prove or disprove the existence of an absent, omnipotent creator figure. I imagine they will provide evidence regarding the nature of Andraste (I think she was a mage) and what her real agenda was, but I think it won't reflect strongly on whether there is or isn't a maker. It will only effect the religion she created by allegedly speaking for him. 

 

I would hope she isn't a mage, just for the simple reason that people in the real world have led rebellion movements (and religion as well) and they didn't need that to be inspiring. Gaider based her off of Joan of Arc especially (or in his words, "What if Joan was Jesus?") and she was just a peasant girl. Yet hundreds of years later, we still talk of her. Albert Einstein once said that one day people wouldn't believe Gandhi ever existed.. but it isn't because he did anything magical. 

[Ieldra]

As for "disproving the existence of the maker", there's no way to disprove the existence of the maker. They can disprove the existence or legitimacy of Andraste and the way she represented her connection with the maker, thus, undermining the legitimacy of Andrastrianism as an organized religion, but you can't prove or disprove the existence of an absent, omnipotent creator figure. I imagine they will provide evidence regarding the nature of Andraste (I think she was a mage) and what her real agenda was, but I think it won't reflect strongly on whether there is or isn't a maker. It will only effect the religion she created by allegedly speaking for him. 

You can't disprove it in a strict sense, but if people treated the question of the existence of their gods like any other hypothesis, they wouldn't believe in them unless there was some evidence *for* their existence - and an extraordinary hypothesis like the existence of a creator god would require equally extraordinary evidence. "You can't disprove it, thus my faith is justified" is complete BS.

 

I would rather like someone on Thedas to apply an analytical mindset to this question and come up with the answer: "Well, I can't know with complete certainty, but all our knowledge is preliminary, and based on what I observe, I can preliminarily conclude that there is no Maker".

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I would hope she isn't a mage, just for the simple reason that people in the real world have led rebellion movements (and religion as well) and they didn't need that to be inspiring. Gaider based her off of Joan of Arc especially (or in his words, "What if Joan was Jesus?") and she was just a peasant girl. Yet hundreds of years later, we still talk of her. Albert Einstein once said that one day people wouldn't believe Gandhi ever existed.. but it isn't because he did anything magical. 

Well, nobody in the real world is a mage, so it goes without saying. lol

 

From the narrative thus far, I think she will probably be a mage, though. They tend to go with whatever will shake things up the most, whatever the average person will be the most shocked to know. So, the Evanuris are just mortal mages and basically jerks. Ameridan was a mage and an elf. "The Stone" is probably rock monsters. If Andraste is just a mage, she's getting off pretty easily. 

[Nocte ad Mortem]

You can't disprove it in a strict sense, but if people treated the question of the existence of their gods like any other hypothesis, they wouldn't believe in them unless there was some evidence *for* their existence - and an extraordinary hypothesis like the existence of a creator god would require equally extraordinary evidence. "You can't disprove it, thus my faith is justified" is complete BS.

 

I would rather like someone on Thedas to apply an analytical mindset to this question and come up with the answer: "Well, I can't know with complete certainty, but all our knowledge is preliminary, and based on what I observe, I can preliminarily conclude that there is no Maker".

I don't disagree with what you're saying at all, actually. I was just addressing the claim that the devs had said they wouldn't prove/disprove the existence of the maker and what that means in practical terms. I imagine what they meant was that the maker is never going to actively make it's presence known, but neither is there really any way to disprove a deistic god with one hundred percent certainty. I doubt it's applicable to how much they plan to reveal about Andraste and the religion she created.