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[Sah291]

Before I was an atheist, I was a Hindu and yeah, many monotheists look down on polytheists even though polytheism by its very nature, encourages more diversity of worship and tolerance of said diversity.

There's that, from a religious perspective. But I think there is a political one there as well. I mean, the Chantry is thought to promote unity. That is how the Andrastians view it. The Dalish, on the other hand, want to have their own society and worship in their own way, and that is seen as threatening to that.

Fairly or unfairly, interest in native, ancestral, or folk religions have been at times associated with nationalism (or rather, used as propaganda tools for nationalists with political agendas), so it has sometimes been viewed with suspicion in Christian nations in this way.

I believe that the Evanuris started out just fine. They were, after all, the Creators of the Elvhen Civilization who taught the Elvhen how to live and if they did not put the Titans to sleep or make them forget, the Elvhen Civilization would not have flourished.

However, the war that broke out, either with the Titans or the Forgotten Ones, changed them. During the war, in a world without a Veil, collective Elven belief in their leaders would have granted these said leaders enormous amounts of power since in a world without Veil, beliefs can be made into reality. This war ended with the Evanuris triumphing and the subsequent realization by said Evanuris that the collective belief of the Elven people made them powerful.

That's sounds in line with what Solas suggests. There was war, which lead to a lot of corruption with the people, as well as the gods themselves. The gods became violent and drunk with power, while the people became paranoid and fearful, so they encouraged simple authority and chains of command, etc. There was red lyrium floating around.

Having said all that, I believe that not all the Evanuris were outright evil. Mythal most certainly isn't and we only have evidence that Falon'Din, Andruil, and Ghilan'nain are the outright evil ones. We do not know how Dirthamen or June or Sylaise behaved. Elgar'nan might very well not be evil but be a lot like Odin or Zeus or Indra, terrifying jerk but not outright evil. Perhaps some of them could possibly even repent.

It doesn't sound like they were all evil, but... it also doesn't seem like Solas really had a choice. When he put the Veil up, he locked them all away, the good along with the bad.

Why is it that we have both Andrastianism and Creator worship being discredit yet the Creator worshiper is railroaded into being negative about it whereas the Andrastian can say "FAITH !" and be done with it ? Why can't an Elven Inquisitor say something like:- "Not all of the Creators are evil, Solas made a mistake locking them all up." or say "Some of the Creators might be evil but they did not start out that way and you, Fen'Harel, destroyed our civilization. Truly, you are a harellan."

That could have balanced things out just fine. IRL, Zeus has done plenty of bad things and so did Odin. The avatars of Vishnu such as Krishna and Rama made plenty of mistakes and Rama treated his wife like shite. Shiva the Destroyer burned Kama the God of Love in his wrath and gave his blessings to the demon Raavana. Yet these deities are worshiped by many worldwide (not sure about Zeus or Odin but Hindu gods like Shiva, Krisha and Rama have lots of worshipers worldwide). As you point out, that the whole deal with faith.

Why is only the Andrastians that are allowed to have faith and be faithful despite all the happens to their religion but the rest are not ? That is most definitely favoritism.

All good questions... it's a double standard. A Dalish Inquisitor should have been able to challenge Solas, in Tresspasser, instead of only be able to agree with his view that they were false gods. It should have been an alternative dialogue choice. I'm guessing they just didn't think of it. A human Inquisitor wouldn't have had any reason to disagree.

Yes, Odin and Zeus both have modern followers today in religions like Hellenismos and Asatru and other related neo-pagan traditions. The difference is, these are small reconstructionist and revival efforts, since there is no surviving living tradition. So much like the Dalish, there is a lot of trying to piece stuff together from from history, much of it lost, and much written by later era Christians who had their own interpretations.

[SwobyJ]

Proof that Solas is the Maker?

 

Edit: Being serious for a moment there are plenty of passages in the Chant about the Veil and Maker:

 

From Erudition 2:1:

 

The first of the Maker's children watched across the Veil And grew jealous of the life They could not feel, could not touch. In blackest envy were the demons born.

 

And from Threnodies 5: 

 

The children of the Maker gathered Before his golden throne And sang hymns of praise unending. But their songs Were the songs of the cobblestones. They shone with the golden light Reflected from the Maker's throne. They held forth the banners That flew on their own.

 

And the Voice of the Maker shook the Fade Saying: In My image I have wrought My firstborn. You have been given dominion Over all that exists. By your will All things are done. Yet you do nothing. The realm I have given you Is formless, ever-changing.

 

And He knew he had wrought amiss. So the Maker turned from his firstborn And took from the Fade A measure of its living flesh And placed it apart from the Spirits, and spoke to it, saying: Here, I decree Opposition in all things: For earth, sky For winter, summer For darkness, Light. By My Will alone is Balance sundered And the world given new life.

 

And no longer was it formless, ever-changing, But held fast, immutable, With Words for heaven and for earth, sea and sky. At last did the Maker From the living world Make men. Immutable, as the substance of the earth, With souls made of dream and idea, hope and fear, Endless possibilities.

 

You can read the rest of it in the DA wiki, but to me that reads like the Maker creating the Veil. 

 

Nope. But I say a few things to this.

 

1)Demons during time of the elves were arguably not 'demons' as they're called in this time of Thedas. The Chant describes things in a certain way for a certain time of Tevinter leading into following of Andraste (that now, the Chantry tries to interpret/control the view of by followers). It does not appear that during the time of the elves, things like "DEMONS having ENVY of others" was explicitly a thing. Particularly the 'demons' word. It appears that 'pre-Veil' (to follow DAI's story reveal about it), the elvhen did not differentiate from spirits and demons so much as Chantry (and Tevinter) era humans. The Dalish had a term for all of these entities (Elgar), and a term for those that crossed the Veil (Daris). Either could be good or bad, either could be helpful or dangerous, and it is human-and-Veil-world-affected today-Dalish view that has demons as more dangerous and 'spirits' as more helpful than demons.

So what I mean is that Erudition is Hessarian describing how things are to be seen to Andraste's followers, after the folly of the Tevinter and the fall of the Elvhan and the establishment of the Veil. Something like "Yeah at some point the first of the Maker's children saw across the Veil (which we do not confirm to be made by the Maker as intrinsic to the realms) and their resulting envy created the roaming demons we're dealing with now." (at that time, it may have been a huge problem)

It explains things for the people at that time, in the way they most needed to know.

 

2)Different realms does not mean the Veil. The Veil is its own thing, even before DAI. The Maker can easily be considered to have made the different realms but not put the Veil between them.

Remember that the Chant likely originally had much more elven insight than the Chantry goes with. It may be assuming we know things that we don't actually know. It may be assuming that we understand that the Veil is its own force with its own story.

 

3)The only explicit 'Maker made the Veil' stuff is, as seen in the post above, by an Enchanter post-Chant. And even that can also be considered to be more of a description of Thedas and the Fade at the time of writing, not at the time of creation of either.

 

4)Nothing stops Bioware from investigating how Fen'Harel and other gods had previous incarnations/portions of self that may technically mean something like 'Solas is the Maker' without Solas actually identifying as the Maker in almost any practical way. DAI has NOT dug deep enough into lore of the dwarves and especially earlier.

 

 

Basically, personally, I consider there to be at least just enough room in the lore for Bioware to go and get away with "Solas made the Veil, things were misinterpreted or assumed or only true in ways that we still don't better understand yet".

[SwobyJ]

It's based on Canticle of Threnodies, which is a part of Chant. What are you trying to say?

 

That Canticle says nothing about the Maker creating the Veil, only two realms in opposition to each other. The Veil is something else, always has been. Not as clearly as a Green Lyriumy thing in physical view, sure, but always something else, as the 'object' that divides the realms today.

[SwobyJ]

As for "disproving the existence of the maker", there's no way to disprove the existence of the maker. They can disprove the existence or legitimacy of Andraste and the way she represented her connection with the maker, thus, undermining the legitimacy of Andrastrianism as an organized religion, but you can't prove or disprove the existence of an absent, omnipotent creator figure. I imagine they will provide evidence regarding the nature of Andraste (I think she was a mage) and what her real agenda was, but I think it won't reflect strongly on whether there is or isn't a maker. It will only effect the religion she created by allegedly speaking for him. 

 

And DAI may have changed the Chantry just enough to absorb and survive this upcoming information.

 

I don't think we should write off a story of 'unification' (of sorts, perhaps varied sorts depending on RP) of the north and south Chantry.

[SwobyJ]

I would hope she isn't a mage, just for the simple reason that people in the real world have led rebellion movements (and religion as well) and they didn't need that to be inspiring. Gaider based her off of Joan of Arc especially (or in his words, "What if Joan was Jesus?") and she was just a peasant girl. Yet hundreds of years later, we still talk of her. Albert Einstein once said that one day people wouldn't believe Gandhi ever existed.. but it isn't because he did anything magical. 

 

She could end up not being a mage in the more typical present-Thedas sense.

 

The writers seem to make a point that sometimes 'powers' are not necessarily to be called 'magic' (except maybe practically in conversations on these forums). That they aren't always about some mutant state within a mortal born in Thedas. Particularly recently was the seeming clear statement that what Valta gained in Descent wasn't 'magic' (even if to most mortals on Thedas they'd scream 'MAGEEEEE!!!!!').

 

Something else could have happened to Andraste so she's not the mage that the north religious politics supposes, nor the pure human without anything else than talking to the Maker going on, that the south religious politics supposes (we already know they scrub away anything Shartan).

 

And those powers don't need to be so... blatant as a 'mage's'. But inspiring enough to exaggerate in religion later, nonetheless.

[straykat]

She could end up not being a mage in the more typical present-Thedas sense.

 

The writers seem to make a point that sometimes 'powers' are not necessarily to be called 'magic' (except maybe practically in conversations on these forums). That they aren't always about some mutant state within a mortal born in Thedas. Particularly recently was the seeming clear statement that what Valta gained in Descent wasn't 'magic' (even if to most mortals on Thedas they'd scream 'MAGEEEEE!!!!!').

 

Something else could have happened to Andraste so she's not the mage that the north religious politics supposes, nor the pure human without anything else than talking to the Maker going on, that the south religious politics supposes (we already know they scrub away anything Shartan).

 

And those powers don't need to be so... blatant as a 'mage's'. But inspiring enough to exaggerate in religion later, nonetheless.

 

All I mean though is it'd be a weird if the real world is even more amazing than this one. We HAVE characters like Andraste and they didn't need this.

 

Or perhaps that should be the case. Reality is always better in the end, no matter how hard writers try to dazzle with fiction.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

And DAI may have changed the Chantry just enough to absorb and survive this upcoming information.

 

I don't think we should write off a story of 'unification' (of sorts, perhaps varied sorts depending on RP) of the north and south Chantry.

Sure, they could accept she was a mage. If that's as far as it goes, I doubt it'll be a big deal, except treatment of mages may improve. They will accept a mage Divine at this point, so I doubt it's that far of a stretch. 

 

The possibilities for how far from the truth the Andraste story ranges could go in any direction, because she's always been presented as just a normal, physical person. It could be left totally ambiguous, that she was a human, non-mage that believed everything she said completely. It could be that she made up everything and never believed any of it, or that it was all a political tool. Maybe Shartan was her real lover and she only made up the maker story to get away from her human husband without suspicion. Maybe instead, she was actually as corrupt as the worst of the Evanuris and was just using the slave uprising for her own ends. Maybe she was Mythal or some other known figure, because they seem to like tying everything together.

 

Either way, people could still feel about it the way a Dalish romancing Solas can feel about her vallaslin. Basically, "it doesn't matter about the original meaning, it matters what it means to me". That seems like a popular theme they like working with. I imagine some narratives would damage or change Andrastrianism to a fairly large extent, though, if they decide to use them.

[SwobyJ]

All I mean though is it'd be a weird if the real world is even more amazing than this one. We HAVE characters like Andraste and they didn't need this.

 

Or perhaps that should be the case. Reality is always better in the end, no matter how hard writers try to dazzle with fiction.

 

I think at the least, the big claims of miracles by Andraste are more like, at most, stretches of the world itself (perhaps related to such things like Titans?) adjusting to her journey due to something in her, and not so much only "I'm Andraste and I wave my hands and the waters part because I am just so loved by the Human Figure Maker that you are to call out for!!!!"

 

I mean, I think that's why we have the Inquisitor story. One can see it as the Maker allowing Andraste to make you her Herald of her return in some fashion (and maybe therefore a sign of the Maker someday returning), or one can see it as a guy having a fancy power that taps into things, that just happened to fit well enough with mythology that a lot of people follow.

[straykat]

I think at the least, the big claims of miracles by Andraste are more like, at most, stretches of the world itself (perhaps related to such things like Titans?) adjusting to her journey due to something in her, and not so much only "I'm Andraste and I wave my hands and the waters part because I am just so loved by the Human Figure Maker that you are to call out for!!!!"

 

I mean, I think that's why we have the Inquisitor story. One can see it as the Maker allowing Andraste to make you her Herald of her return in some fashion (and maybe therefore a sign of the Maker someday returning), or one can see it as a guy having a fancy power that taps into things, that just happened to fit well enough with mythology that a lot of people follow.

 

I don't know what her miracles were, if any. Does it ever go into detail?

 

If she's not a normal woman just fighting slavers though, it'll ruin and distract from what's important about the character. It's bad enough as it is. Hardly anyone even wants to talk about Andraste. The Chantry latches on to anti-mage rhetoric, but loses sight of why she even fought Tevinter. While fans just care about theories of her being an OGB or some incarnation of Mythal. 

 

And what gets lost is the rebel. And it'll get even more lost if the writers start focusing on mage stuff or mysticism.

[SwobyJ]

Sure, they could accept she was a mage. If that's as far as it goes, I doubt it'll be a big deal, except treatment of mages may improve. They will accept a mage Divine at this point, so I doubt it's that far of a stretch. 

 

The possibilities for how far from the truth the Andraste story ranges could go in any direction, because she's always been presented as just a normal, physical person. It could be left totally ambiguous, that she was a human, non-mage that believed everything she said completely. It could be that she made up everything and never believed any of it, or that it was all a political tool. Maybe Shartan was her real lover and she only made up the maker story to get away from her human husband without suspicion. Maybe instead, she was actually as corrupt as the worst of the Evanuris and was just using the slave uprising for her own ends. Maybe she was Mythal or some other known figure, because they seem to like tying everything together.

 

Either way, people could still feel about it the way a Dalish romancing Solas can feel about her vallaslin. Basically, "it doesn't matter about the original meaning, it matters what it means to me". That seems like a popular theme they like working with. I imagine some narratives would damage or change Andrastrianism to a fairly large extent, though, if they decide to use them.

 

All those perspectives are possibilities.

 

Frankly, I think Bioware may even be testing themselves in the long run to give even the Qun (albeit not necessarily in its presently expressed form) legitimacy. And I hate the Qun. So yes the lore may include evidence that may be considered to mean things like Andraste being corrupt (or at least much more corrupt than the Chantry supposes) and just making up stories the best she knew how, or others making up stories for her that she goes along, or both but stories become some thing they truly believe in as time goes on.

 

One big thing that is inevitable is change. Change will happen. The way that things are, will be something else. This has been true in the histories of Thedas (and irl cough) and it'll be true in this important Dragon Age (and irl for our future cough). Only the 'spirits'/ideas do not change by themselves.

[SwobyJ]

I don't know what her miracles were, if any. Does it ever go into detail?

 

If she's not a normal woman just fighting slavers though, it'll ruin and distract from what's important about the character. It's bad enough as it is. Hardly anyone even wants to talk about Andraste. The Chantry latches on to anti-mage rhetoric, but loses sight of why she even fought Tevinter. While fans just care about theories of her being an OGB or some incarnation of Mythal. 

 

And what gets lost is the rebel. And it'll get even more lost if the writers start focusing on mage stuff or mysticism.

 

Her miracles were described less as spells and more as the world favoring her. Crops growing the best, landslides ruining her enemies, etc. And not just a few, but many, that always seemed to help Andraste and her forces and hurt Tevinter and Old God worship. And its all more directly attributed to the 'Maker', not Andraste, though she is described as the one the Maker wanted by his side (and after her death, she became his Bride).

 

That's why I think Titan (and related) lore will matter. A lot. Andraste can still be 'mostly normal' as a person while tapped into more. If she's a mage, it doesn't mean she actively manifested her powers - they could still have passive effects that she and others were either not aware of or didn't reveal to her, so she carries on, or discovers at some point but still keeps low. If she's helped by something titanic, it doesn't mean she understood it as that, but instead some assistance from her single god 'Maker' of the ancient humans. Her journey in itself can still be one of a human rallying slaves.

 

[LobselVith8]

Sometimes you do, but typically only when you consider yourself to have good mutual respect with that person. People's particular religious beliefs are not actually as set in stone as any religious institution officially supposes.

 

Maybe Bioware hasn't made clear to enough players that its super duper hard for Cassandra and the Inquisitor (not the player, the Inquisitor) to not at least have high respect for each other, allowing themselves to have these sorts of conversations.

 

Cassandra may be 'devoutly Andrastan', but she is also reformist (that comes with a degree of questioning to the very institutions she is part of) , and she also is, in my opinion, supposed to show a positive portrayal of faith - the idea that it comes with healthy doubt but embodies the continued overcoming of that doubt.

So she may be asking that line because she herself does not find it offensive if she was asked the opposite in turn ("Is there not room for several more?"). She wouldn't agree with that line of questioning, but she seems to accept that there will be many views out there, and just that its her job to positively promote what she considers to be the true way. I really think Cassandra has no issue with Dalish believing only in the Dalish gods - other than that she thinks that the Maker is the true one to be followed.

 

I suppose you and I have very different ideas, then, because I would never try to dissuade someone from following their religious beliefs simply because they were different than my own.

 

As to the other issues you brought up, the Inquisitor is still a stranger to Cassandra when she asks him or her why they don't make room in their pantheon for her god. Given what Cassandra says about the Temple of Mythal, I don't get the impression that she respects elven worship of the gods.

[Gervaise]

The Qun is easy to accommodate so far as their beliefs are concerned.   I don't know how they could reveal anything untoward about that considering they deny the existence of gods anyway.   Their doctrine is that Koslun wandered the world looking for an example of a fair system of government but found none, sat down to meditate on this in the wilderness, saw a swarm of locusts and had an epiphany.   Returned home and wrote down his philosophy on life.    The only way they could find to disturb the qunari on this would be to show them that Koslun never intended for society to be arranged in the way it is in the Qun.   Any revelations regarding the qunari are going to come from what their origins were, which Koslun had nothing to do with.  

 

I've never had a problem with Andraste herself, just what the Chantry has done with her.   I'd love to be able to discover not only her true history but her actual words.   At the moment I don't trust anything in the southern Chant.   May be if we go north and get to see the Imperium's version and can compare the two, find which bits confirm the other, I might feel a bit more inclined to believe any of it came from Andraste.     At present I'd go with the bits that are acknowledged as the oldest.

 

This thread has really got me delving back into the lore books and each time I do, I come up with something else to cast doubt on the Chantry or make me wonder why people weren't reacting more to things like finding what appeared to be Justinia in the Fade.   I realise that with the late addition of races, they couldn't incorporate my Dalish being freaked out by walking bodily in what is thought to be their "holy place" and disappointment that it wasn't better.   However, there was an explanation for this in that it was probably better when the elf gods had care of the place and Nightmare had made a few changes since then.   It would also have been amusing for him to have warned to keep a watch out for Fen'Harel prowling the place and see what reaction we got from Solas.    

 

The interesting bit is when you read what the Chantry teach about the Fade.   It is the place which all souls must pass through on death, but the faithful continue on to the Maker's side and it is only the wicked and unfaithful that get stuck there, doomed to wander endlessly.   Which begs the question, what would Justinia's soul still be doing there unless she was damned by the Maker?   Instead of Cassandra seeming mildly surprised to see her there, she should have been horrified that she still was.   It seems pretty obvious from this that it was just a spirit impersonating her but I would have appreciated a bit more certainty from the Chantry believers, Cassandra, Leliana and Giselle that that was the case.   Instead Leliana almost seems to believe it was her.  

 

Ho, hum, what a strange bunch they are.

[SwobyJ]

I suppose you and I have very different ideas, then, because I would never try to dissuade someone from following their religious beliefs simply because they were different than my own.
 
As to the other issues you brought up, the Inquisitor is still a stranger to Cassandra when she asks him or her why they don't make room in their pantheon for her god. Given what Cassandra says about the Temple of Mythal, I don't get the impression that she respects elven worship of the gods.

 
You wouldn't - but that's a big part of common cultural discourse nonetheless. In fact, its a big part of religions themselves - conversion, evangelism, doctrine not being exclusive to followers, but spoken by people towards non-followers. Even the (otherwise?) kindest people, can be considered 'god botherers', and this isn't at all uncommon to this day.
 
And I don't think Cassandra respects elven worship of gods. I think she respects that they they worship the gods. For example, I don't think Cassandra would have been someone to declare a holy war against the Dales or Dalish based only on them believing differently. She's justify efforts to convert them, in itself, but she wouldn't justify anything that gave her the sense of forced conversion. I think she'd crack hard down on anyone trying forced conversion, but she'd consider it highly important, to the foundation of the Chantry itself, to make efforts to spread the Chant further and further. It is her own cultural position that the Chant is something to be shared. She indeed, as indicated, even accepts that the Dalish worship several other gods, but that doesn't stop her from at minimum, in personal interactions, suggesting that there could be one other one with a theology that is crucially important.
 
She seems the sort that has relatively more of the the value system of "If it doesn't make sense to me, I don't do it". However, what makes sense to her, is still tolerance of other beliefs and acceptance of the existence of other beliefs - at least until the days of everyone singing the Chant anyway. She believes in a just god that would not insist on force to have others do what is correct about itself, though she does believe in an unjust world that requires force to have others do what is correct about other matters. And of course she has bias - she's just, in my opinion, designed as a character who is not inevitably blinded by their bias. But she even admits as such that she is at least occasionally very wrong.
 
I think she doesn't see value in elven gods but she remains open enough to the possibility of being given convincing enough evidence to better validate them. She just doesn't see it yet while she does see enough evidence in what she does believe. And she believes in the Maker existing in some way, and the validity of the Chantry as an institution, but not exactly what the Chantry puts out on a particular time.

"If we are to spread the Maker's word across the world, we must do so with open hearts and open hands."

[straykat]

 

I've never had a problem with Andraste herself, just what the Chantry has done with her.   I'd love to be able to discover not only her true history but her actual words.   At the moment I don't trust anything in the southern Chant.   May be if we go north and get to see the Imperium's version and can compare the two, find which bits confirm the other, I might feel a bit more inclined to believe any of it came from Andraste.     At present I'd go with the bits that are acknowledged as the oldest.

 

 

You don't even believe in much of it to get the gist of where they're going here. What's so controversial about this, for example:

 

Blessed are they who stand before

The corrupt and the wicked and do not falter.

Blessed are the peacekeepers, the champions of the just.

 

Blessed are the righteous, the lights in the shadow.

In their blood the Maker's will is written.

 

Basic righteous warrior, die for a good cause type of stuff. There's nothing Tevinter will offer that will change this. It's not like Tevinter has a version with the complete opposite. "Blessed are those who launch babies from catapults, and kick puppies".

[SwobyJ]

The Qun is easy to accommodate so far as their beliefs are concerned.   I don't know how they could reveal anything untoward about that considering they deny the existence of gods anyway.   Their doctrine is that Koslun wandered the world looking for an example of a fair system of government but found none, sat down to meditate on this in the wilderness, saw a swarm of locusts and had an epiphany.   Returned home and wrote down his philosophy on life.    The only way they could find to disturb the qunari on this would be to show them that Koslun never intended for society to be arranged in the way it is in the Qun.   Any revelations regarding the qunari are going to come from what their origins were, which Koslun had nothing to do with.  
 
I've never had a problem with Andraste herself, just what the Chantry has done with her.   I'd love to be able to discover not only her true history but her actual words.   At the moment I don't trust anything in the southern Chant.   May be if we go north and get to see the Imperium's version and can compare the two, find which bits confirm the other, I might feel a bit more inclined to believe any of it came from Andraste.     At present I'd go with the bits that are acknowledged as the oldest.
 
This thread has really got me delving back into the lore books and each time I do, I come up with something else to cast doubt on the Chantry or make me wonder why people weren't reacting more to things like finding what appeared to be Justinia in the Fade.   I realise that with the late addition of races, they couldn't incorporate my Dalish being freaked out by walking bodily in what is thought to be their "holy place" and disappointment that it wasn't better.   However, there was an explanation for this in that it was probably better when the elf gods had care of the place and Nightmare had made a few changes since then.   It would also have been amusing for him to have warned to keep a watch out for Fen'Harel prowling the place and see what reaction we got from Solas.    
 
The interesting bit is when you read what the Chantry teach about the Fade.   It is the place which all souls must pass through on death, but the faithful continue on to the Maker's side and it is only the wicked and unfaithful that get stuck there, doomed to wander endlessly.   Which begs the question, what would Justinia's soul still be doing there unless she was damned by the Maker?   Instead of Cassandra seeming mildly surprised to see her there, she should have been horrified that she still was.   It seems pretty obvious from this that it was just a spirit impersonating her but I would have appreciated a bit more certainty from the Chantry believers, Cassandra, Leliana and Giselle that that was the case.   Instead Leliana almost seems to believe it was her.  
 
Ho, hum, what a strange bunch they are.

Well Koslun himself may have to do, even indirectly, with the origins of the qunari. There's so much vague there that I think we'll only begin to truly press into it with DA4.

 

Yes the Chantry as time went on, more likely got worse and wrong, than better and right. Though it also grew into a large enough institution that there's an argument to be made that if positive reform can be done to it, that reform may be very wide reaching and much more effective than burning the whole thing down and hoping for the best.

 

And indeed, the Fade, and especially the Raw Physical Fade we visit in DAI, can be considered a mega corrupted portion of it that perhaps would not have been such longer ago (whatever one's religious views).

 

'Justinia' doesn't have to be considered to be 'wandering' or 'stuck' there. The 'passing through the Fade' is not given any timetable at all. It can be considered that this is her passing through, or that this is a spiritual remnant of what she was, or other things.

 

Cassandra more desires to believe the core Chantry dogma, so she leans toward it being the case that it is either Justinia stopping through before passing on, or just that its a remnant of the real Justinia that passed on. In either case, she does not seem to consider that Justinia is, well, wicked.

 

Leliana is more of the ideological revolutionary, so she does seem more open to the idea that it was really Justinia wandering the Fade. However, she maintains the conventional position that the Fade doesn't tell the 'truth', so there really isn't much there to be sure about. She seemed worried by the Divine being there and saying what she said, and that's enough for me. In either case, 'The Divine is dead' is all either person knows, and all they think they'll ever know.

 

I'm not too bothered by neither being highly distressed. Cassandra seems curious and Leliana seems worried, and that's good enough. Now if 'Justinia' revealed some knowledge that only Cass/Leliana knows but put in some scary context that might reveal she was a wicked person... that's another matter. But she didn't. She instead *guided* the Inquisitor through and out of the Fade, and took the appearance more of a bright spirit than a known shape of a demon. In all ways that ended up counting, she seemed to be helpful and close enough to what they knew Justinia was (which was a good Divine). It'd only be people that think all spirits are dangerous demons that would be against all this, and Cass and Leliana do not have those beliefs (though, like, Sera does).

[Xerrai]

The favoritism makes sense, though, does it not?

The world is dominated by humans, the majority of which are Andrastian. The areas where Andrastianism isn't the state religion could likely be counted on one hand. (Orzamaar, Kal-Sharok, Rivain, Par Vollen). Most other religons are usually held by nomads or other isolated (i.e Avaar, Dalish) populations that are not considered large enough to be considered a nation/state.

 

But I wouldn't say that the games have not done anything to poke at the Andrastian faith. One of the big background conflicts in DAI was how much the Chantry was failing. They only spoke the Chant but seldom acted on its principles. The clergy was divided, they failed to comfort the people, and were more concerned with having pretty cathedrals than dealing with emergent problems. Their negligence was also a factor in how the mage-Templar conflict rolled out.

With a religion figurehead like the Maker--who will never be proven or disproven--one of the few ways to effectively poke at or criticize the religion is to find flaw with its implementation at the hands of mortals. Its easy enough to find in modern settings, even though the game may not bring as much attention to it as much as it should.

 

But I trust we will learn more about Andraste in the future. Or if not her, then other works (i.e the Veil) that were also supposedly made by the Maker.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Well sorry if every other god has been proven to be false while the Maker still retains his perfection as if he does even care of those little apes of Thedas that are cursing his name....billions of years after their death he will still be there.

[Steelcan]

This thread is like text wall central

[Sah291]

She could end up not being a mage in the more typical present-Thedas sense.

The writers seem to make a point that sometimes 'powers' are not necessarily to be called 'magic' (except maybe practically in conversations on these forums). That they aren't always about some mutant state within a mortal born in Thedas. Particularly recently was the seeming clear statement that what Valta gained in Descent wasn't 'magic' (even if to most mortals on Thedas they'd scream 'MAGEEEEE!!!!!').

Something else could have happened to Andraste so she's not the mage that the north religious politics supposes, nor the pure human without anything else than talking to the Maker going on, that the south religious politics supposes (we already know they scrub away anything Shartan).

And those powers don't need to be so... blatant as a 'mage's'. But inspiring enough to exaggerate in religion later, nonetheless.

I think we already see this distinction between the circle mages and the Templars/Seekers. They all engage in what could be described as mystical ritual... but magic is all about creating change and influencing the world. What the Seekers do is about being in harmony with the will of the Maker, etc. It's not called magic, and it is accepted by the Chantry.

What Valta and also Dagna gained was some mystical or spiritual insight into the Titans...but not all mystics are mages.

Personally I think it's sort of silly... but it does give insight into why the Chantry is so anti mage and why they are so hyper focused on Andraste's teaching about magic not ruling over men.

This is about faith and trusting the Maker's will, and not becoming enslaved by their own magic trying to change the nature of things. Like the Magisters storming the Golden City to become gods, or whatever it was they were trying to do.

(Also, I really don't want to see mages turned into superhero mutants..but I kinda have a feeling they will)

[SwobyJ]

The favoritism makes sense, though, does it not?

The world is dominated by humans, the majority of which are Andrastian. The areas where Andrastianism isn't the state religion could likely be counted on one hand. (Orzamaar, Kal-Sharok, Rivain, Par Vollen). Most other religons are usually held by nomads or other isolated (i.e Avaar, Dalish) populations that are not considered large enough to be considered a nation/state.

 

But I wouldn't say that the games have not done anything to poke at the Andrastian faith. One of the big background conflicts in DAI was how much the Chantry was failing. They only spoke the Chant but seldom acted on its principles. The clergy was divided, they failed to comfort the people, and were more concerned with having pretty cathedrals than dealing with emergent problems. Their negligence was also a factor in how the mage-Templar conflict rolled out.

With a religion figurehead like the Maker--who will never be proven or disproven--one of the few ways to effectively poke at or criticize the religion is to find flaw with its implementation at the hands of mortals. Its easy enough to find in modern settings, even though the game may not bring as much attention to it as much as it should.

 

But I trust we will learn more about Andraste in the future. Or if not her, then other works (i.e the Veil) that were also supposedly made by the Maker.

 

This is why I'm (as much as I can be for a Dragon Age player that barely if even considers himself a fan) excited for the future!

 

Tevinter has a mix of not following typical Chantry dogma, and those who don't follow it at all!

Anderfels does have devout, perhaps more fanatical Andrastans, but even they may have a different take than the 'norm' (Orlais, Ferlden, Nevarra?, Free Marches?, Antiva?), and the story may be highly flavored by darkspawn lore.

There's opportunity to uncover even more revelatory dwarven lore!

There's the elven capital land!

Antiva seems to care more about money and killing than any of the peaceful values of the Chant!

Rivain is a buncha spirit huggers, so why?!

And the Qunari are super anti-Chant!

 

 

 

On one hand, its only a 'handful' of major regions that majority reject the Chant, so it makes sense for a game, at least ONE game, to focus on it.

On the other, its only a 'handful' of major regions that majority support the Chant as we've normally understood it and as the present political hegemony (Orlais, southern Chantry, Chantry Circles, Templar Order, Seekers of Truth) encourages. So there's PLENTY of room for more to focus on in FUTURE games.

 

Personally, I've had no problem with Inquisition having most of the focus its had. Just as long as Bioware doesn't stick to that in the series while there's rich material in the rest of known Thedas, let alone the rest of the world with only lore hints and the unknown reaches.

[Gervaise]

Yes, it is all stirring stuff and I actually like the moral teachings that are contained in the Chant.   I'd believe in the Chantry a bit more if they took nobles to task who didn't abide by it.    Take this bit for instance:

 

"All men are the Work of our Maker's Hands,

from the lowest slaves to the highest kings.

Those who bring harm without provocation to the least of His children

Are hated and accursed by the Maker."

 

Of course it is that qualifier "without provocation" that gives the nobles the let out for their abuse.   The Chevaliers train their recruits by setting them loose in the alienage?   Oh, that's okay because some elf from there caused offence to a lady, so it's all right to kill any elf we come across.    Still I'd love to know what justification they use for rape.   Probably the standard one, she led me on, she provoked me to it.   Considering that they actually do teach that the wicked and the unrighteous will be damned in the after life, it is odd that people aren't more worried by their conduct.    

 

Andraste stood for something.   I dare say she wasn't perfect but she did at least do her best to free the slaves and doesn't appear to have shown any favouritism.   She certainly was willing to call the non-human elf Shartan her brother in arms.  

 

Where have the Divines been down the years condemning the Game? At least that is something Drakon did get right, for all the good it did.   Many innocents have  suffered in that, just as Briala's parents did and the only thing they did to "provoke" their fate was work for the wrong side.   Justinia actually encouraged Celene to go and put the elven rebellion down with violence when she, like Celene, must have known they had only rebelled because of an injustice that went unanswered after years putting up with such incidents.   I blame Celene for being too weak to stick to her original plan, which was to diffuse the situation peacefully by bringing the perpetrator to justice, even if not open justice, but Justinia saying she would only deal with the mage situation if Celene dealt with the elves is terrible.    And when Gaspard sponsored a play that was hugely insulting to the memory of Andraste and using her for paltry political gain, no one objected or called him to task over it but the only anger was directed at Celene as the subject of the parody.    Apparently a few gifts to the Chantry and they look the other way.  

[SwobyJ]

I think we already see this distinction between the circle mages and the Templars/Seekers. They all engage in what could be described as mystical ritual... but magic is all about creating change and influencing the world. What the Seekers do is about being in harmony with the will of the Maker, etc. It's not called magic, and it is accepted by the Chantry.

What Valta and also Dagna gained was some mystical or spiritual insight into the Titans...but not all mystics are mages.

Personally I think it's sort of silly... but it does give insight into why the Chantry is so anti mage and why they are so hyper focused on Andraste's teaching about magic not ruling over men.

This is about faith and trusting the Maker's will, and not becoming enslaved by their own magic trying to change the nature of things. Like the Magisters storming the Golden City to become gods, or whatever it was they were trying to do.

 

Yes. We as players could even see it as hypocrisy. That's not 'abilities', it is magic in denial! That's not lyrium consumption, it is blood magic in denial! That's not magic serving man, it is mages being slaves! etc etc

 

On the other hand, there does seem to be a purity there. An inpure purity (heh), but a purity. Do we take that supposedly better path, or do we resist and fight and do whatever we can to change it? Perhaps it even needs us to do that? The Order and Chaos idea.

 

But my main point was that there's a certain paradigm that most characters most of the time in Dragon Age live in... but this paradigm doesn't actually work for *everything*. This is how mages are actually only a particular sort of creature, but Valta with 'powers' are another, and while Valta could be considered a mage by some, she doesn't think she is, and conversely... perhaps 'mages' are not just 'mages' that most people suppose they are.

Other stuff like this gets investigated in the series. What is blood magic? What is the taint? What makes up lyrium? Why does it sing? Is it a stone or alive? Is Thedas stuck and dead, or is it more alive and active than any realm? 

 

Lots of questions that get touched on in DA, and thankfully IMO starting to be really explored in DAI, but they all press at and even breach the edges of the world we and Thedosians 'thought we knew' in DAO.

 

And yes, mystical might be a better word than magical. In DA, it seems that magic may be a performance by a mortal in which they expend mana (is mana the power of blood with trace lyrium mixed in it from birth?) draw upon energies of the Fade to perform feats on Thedas. We're given exception like in the Raw Fade part of DAI, but even that is an example of pressing against the boundaries of what was normally understood (only the Magisters had visited the Fade in the 'physical', as far as anyone knew, and there were few details of it).

Phenomenon that does not fit this qualification of magic, may arguably not 'truly' be "magic", but forces of something else, that we can end up giving different names to. Sure it is 'magical' as we IRL would call it, but it may not be the best term in the lore.

 

Anyway, this leads to ideas about Andrastanism, the Maker, Templars, etc. That they all point to something that is ...typical (a person, a Titan or origin of its existence or more, lyrium like mages may have as well, etc), but because of so much invested with it, and how it is invested, it becomes 'larger than typical/life'. It matters more, at least arguably. Templar matter more because they keep the peace - though maybe a better relationship between them and others could be formed. The Maker matters more because it created the major realms - though maybe a better relationship between us and the Maker could be formed. Andraste may matter more because her story and its spread encourages a better world than what was before - though maybe a better relationship between society and her and her story could be formed. These positions may be of their own way of particular Order that encourages a domination.. of equality. Maybe it is an illusion, maybe it is BULLSHEEE, maybe it is a lie. Maybe it'll never be truly achieved. Maybe it was never achieved. ... Or maybe it is exactly the sort of thing that is needed to make the world better. Always better. Never has been the best, but perhaps still better than say, mages slaving everyone weaker than them, titans rampaging over everyone else, a huge violent mess of energies, etc. Better than the chaos it may be in opposition of. In all the chaos of the world, this doesn't include just the 'bad', but the 'good'. Like hope. Hope itself exists, and it is a concept about trying to believe in something better.

 

 

2:37+

 

https://youtu.be/uX2ZKUAjQ6A?t=2m37s

[Giantdeathrobot]

I'm really not sure about that.

 

Inquisition spends a lot of time dwelling on the failings and lies/half truths of the Chantry. Sure, the faithful (even those who are ''good guys'') handwave it in various ways, but that's just something that can easily be done with monotheist religions featuring an absent god. ''The Maker works in mysterious ways'' and all that, which your character can refute. Doesn't mean the writers approve of such an attitude, but that it's the appropriate attitude for followers of the Chantry to use, just like falling back on the whole No True Scotsman fallacy is the appropriate attitude for followers of the Qun who see their beliefs challenged.

 

Plus, as far as I see it the Maker was already described from the get-go as a bipolar dick, abandoning His children at the drop of a hat to skulk in a corner every time they did something He didn't like. He just needs to start smiting people left and right to be an even bigger jerk than Old Testament God. The Evanuris being slightly bigger dicks, according to Solas, doesn't seem like such a slap in the face.

 

One thing I do agree is that the perspective of a Dalish Elf character is a bit limited, and we should have been able to challenge Solas a bit more. But I do not see blatant favoritism here, not to mention we only have Solas's side of the story so far. It's possible the Evanuris get more development further down the line, like the Stone got in Inquisition/Descent.

[Sah291]

Yes. We as players could even see it as hypocrisy. That's not 'abilities', it is magic in denial! That's not lyrium consumption, it is blood magic in denial! That's not magic serving man, it is mages being slaves! etc etc

On the other hand, there does seem to be a purity there. An inpure purity (heh), but a purity. Do we take that supposedly better path, or do we resist and fight and do whatever we can to change it? Perhaps it even needs us to do that? The Order and Chaos idea.

But my main point was that there's a certain paradigm that most characters most of the time in Dragon Age live in... but this paradigm doesn't actually work for *everything*. This is how mages are actually only a particular sort of creature, but Valta with 'powers' are another, and while Valta could be considered a mage by some, she doesn't think she is, and conversely... perhaps 'mages' are not just 'mages' that most people suppose they are.
Other stuff like this gets investigated in the series. What is blood magic? What is the taint? What makes up lyrium? Why does it sing? Is it a stone or alive? Is Thedas stuck and dead, or is it more alive and active than any realm?

Lots of questions that get touched on in DA, and thankfully IMO starting to be really explored in DAI, but they all press at and even breach the edges of the world we and Thedosians 'thought we knew' in DAO.

And yes, mystical might be a better word than magical. In DA, it seems that magic may be a performance by a mortal in which they expend mana (is mana the power of blood with trace lyrium mixed in it from birth?) draw upon energies of the Fade to perform feats on Thedas. We're given exception like in the Raw Fade part of DAI, but even that is an example of pressing against the boundaries of what was normally understood (only the Magisters had visited the Fade in the 'physical', as far as anyone knew, and there were few details of it).
Phenomenon that does not fit this qualification of magic, may arguably not 'truly' be "magic", but forces of something else, that we can end up giving different names to. Sure it is 'magical' as we IRL would call it, but it may not be the best term in the lore.

Anyway, this leads to ideas about Andrastanism, the Maker, Templars, etc. That they all point to something that is ...typical (a person, a Titan or origin of its existence or more, lyrium like mages may have as well, etc), but because of so much invested with it, and how it is invested, it becomes 'larger than typical/life'. It matters more, at least arguably. Templar matter more because they keep the peace - though maybe a better relationship between them and others could be formed. The Maker matters more because it created the major realms - though maybe a better relationship between us and the Maker could be formed. Andraste may matter more because her story and its spread encourages a better world than what was before - though maybe a better relationship between society and her and her story could be formed. These positions may be of their own way of particular Order that encourages a domination.. of equality. Maybe it is an illusion, maybe it is BULLSHEEE, maybe it is a lie. Maybe it'll never be truly achieved. Maybe it was never achieved. ... Or maybe it is exactly the sort of thing that is needed to make the world better. Always better. Never has been the best, but perhaps still better than say, mages slaving everyone weaker than them, titans rampaging over everyone else, a huge violent mess of energies, etc. Better than the chaos it may be in opposition of. In all the chaos of the world, this doesn't include just the 'bad', but the 'good'. Like hope. Hope itself exists, and it is a concept about trying to believe in something better.


2:37+

https://youtu.be/uX2ZKUAjQ6A?t=2m37s

Well, I think there's value in both points of view, myself. There is something to be said for understanding the cycle of violence, practicing humility, and understanding you can't always force your will onto things, and expect everything to work out the way you intend. On the other hand, that kind of philosophy can go so far that people ignore injustices or believe they can't or shouldn't do anything about them. Or that we shouldn't try to improve things. So it's not so black and white.

I'm not sure what you mean about mages being a different sort of creature? Do you mean like, as in mutant or enhanced human that has been influenced or altered by some power or force? Rather than a mystical interpretation like I'm talking about? Like that there is literally something in their blood or DNA, or they are descended from elves or dragons or something?