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Bioware's Favoritism Towards Andrastianism


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#151
Pasquale1234

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A casual player is informed by the scene - which is the issue.


That's true a lot of scenes throughout the series of games.

People who don't study every single codex in all 3 games plus read all of the other materials published are naturally not going to understand all of the background and/or take some things out of context. Even people who have been fully exposed to all relevant material will come away with different interpretations of what they see. For that matter, people come away from actual real world events with different interpretations. And people who are so casual about the material that they can't be bothered to even read the codexes clearly don't care, anyway. They have other reasons for playing the game.

Why is this an issue?
 

We know that the developers have said that they will never answer whether or not the Maker is real - while the faith of the Dalish is invalidated. That's a rather stark difference in how the two faiths are treated.


How is the faith invalidated?

In order to make that statement, you have to believe that you have full understanding of exactly what that faith is. All I've ever seen are some stories, legends, and statues describing a pantheon and their deeds. Not much different, really, from the ancient Greek pantheon, Roman pantheon, et. al. People who have studied these mythologies might be able to spin yarns about these gods and goddesses and their exploits in great gory detail - but that would tell me nothing about their actual faith.

What we actually see from current Dalish in the games are lines like, "may the dread wolf never hear your steps" - and lo and behold, the dread wolf actually exists and gives us reason to fear him! We see some of their other legends shown to be true - the eluvians, immortality, Arlathan.

Meanwhile, the Chantry remains more of a political organization than anything else. There is quite a variance in what individual Andrastians believe. Leliana joined the Warden's team because she believed the Maker spoke to her (via a bush IIRC?) - which flies in the face of other beliefs, and the Guardian called her out on it. They have different views about whether the Inquisitor is truly the Herald of Andraste - and even if they decide it was instead Justinia V who saved the Inquisitor, they still don't bother to share that information, but instead let the people believe whatever they wish. Some of the most devout Andrastians in the game don't all have the same beliefs, why would the Dalish? There's a complete separation between the North & South Chantries - clearly, Andrastianism is not some ubiquitous thing.

And why does it matter whether the Maker exists?
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#152
SwobyJ

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Well, I think there's value in both points of view, myself. There is something to be said for understanding the cycle of violence, practicing humility, and understanding you can't always force your will onto things, and expect everything to work out the way you intend. On the other hand, that kind of philosophy can go so far that people ignore injustices or believe they can't or shouldn't do anything about them. Or that we shouldn't try to improve things. So it's not so black and white.

I'm not sure what you mean about mages being a different sort of creature? Do you mean like, as in mutant or enhanced human that has been influenced or altered by some power or force? Rather than a mystical interpretation like I'm talking about? Like that there is literally something in their blood or DNA, or they are descended from elves or dragons or something?

 

I mean that there's more particular to a mage than it just being an empowered mortal. That it may more specifically have to do with their blood, biological composition, whatever. In terms of ancestry, I really think a DA4 in Tevinter may get deeper into this - what makes a 'mage', (and related, what makes a 'templar'). What lyrium really is, too. We've 'done' our main conflict between Mages and Templars, so now it may be time to see what they have actually had in common ground - lyrium.



#153
Jedi Master of Orion

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According to Threnodies, the Maker sealed himself in the Golden City after the Original Sin. And then talks to the Magisters Sidereal when they corrupted the City with their Sin, so the City wasn't as abandoned as the rest of the Chant claim. Unless this is another inconsistency in their dogma.

 

http://dragonage.wik...e_of_Threnodies

 

Back to topic, my problem on how Andrastianism is treated in this game is not that the religion wasn't destroyed, but that there are no realistic reactions to the discoveries made by the Inquisitor in this game. You can say that monotheism is based on faith and that cannot be disproved, and that may be true IRL, but in a world where you can go to the Dream Realm, have magic and can talk with a guy from the time the Chantry was in its infancy, that those revelations don't had any consequence or al least some reactions from NPCs beyond "lalala, I see nothing, this isn't what I believe. FAITH!" is illogical.

 

That's not what is says. It says the Maker sealed himself himself in the Golden City after man was created. The Chantry doctrine says he left the Golden City to go somewhere else after the First Sin, which is why later in Threnodies it refers to "the empty throne."



#154
LobselVith8

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That's true a lot of scenes throughout the series of games.

People who don't study every single codex in all 3 games plus read all of the other materials published are naturally not going to understand all of the background and/or take some things out of context. Even people who have been fully exposed to all relevant material will come away with different interpretations of what they see. For that matter, people come away from actual real world events with different interpretations. And people who are so casual about the material that they can't be bothered to even read the codexes clearly don't care, anyway. They have other reasons for playing the game.

Why is this an issue?

 

I'd say it's an issue with the Dalish because some players consistently get the wrong impression about why they are so apprehensive about outsiders. When some people act like the only reason the Dalish live separately from humans is because of their own arrogance, it pretty much ignores that their religion is criminalized, their clans are frequently attacked, and even templars pursue them.

 

How is the faith invalidated?

 

If the Creators aren't traditional elven gods as the Dalish believe, then their faith in the Creators is wrong, and thus far we are told that they are villainous people. We frequently hear terms like "false gods" and "elven mages" used to describe the Creators in Trespasser, so it's also not an issue where we're asked to consider what a god actually is because this is never even remotely suggested by the story.



#155
Sah291

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I mean that there's more particular to a mage than it just being an empowered mortal. That it may more specifically have to do with their blood, biological composition, whatever. In terms of ancestry, I really think a DA4 in Tevinter may get deeper into this - what makes a 'mage', (and related, what makes a 'templar'). What lyrium really is, too. We've 'done' our main conflict between Mages and Templars, so now it may be time to see what they have actually had in common ground - lyrium.


Well the Tevinter mages certainly believe that, and they track blood lines for this reason. Though one has to wonder how much of all the bloodline stuff is more about keeping track of nobility, since in Tevinter, that would be the same class of people.

Regardless, training seems to be an incredibly important factor for a mage to develop their abilities. There are self taught and hedge mages, but their abilities can manifest in really unpredictable ways, and some may not even be aware of their abilities at all. It's been speculated this might be the case with Sera.
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#156
Iakus

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If the Creators aren't traditional elven gods as the Dalish believe, then their faith in the Creators is wrong, and thus far we are told that they are villainous people. We frequently hear terms like "false gods" and "elven mages" used to describe the Creators in Trespasser, so it's also not an issue where we're asked to consider what a god actually is because this is never even remotely suggested by the story.

Actually Morrigan herself asks "What is a god?"


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#157
LobselVith8

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Actually Morrigan herself asks "What is a god?"

 

Morrigan talks about being a 'god' in reference to Corypheus and the Inquisitor using the Anchor to enter the Black City, while - as I pointed out repeatedly at this point - the language used in Trespasser to describe the Creators are "false gods" and "elven mages".



#158
Pasquale1234

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I'd say it's an issue with the Dalish because some players consistently get the wrong impression about why they are so apprehensive about outsiders. When some people act like the only reason the Dalish live separately from humans is because of their own arrogance, it pretty much ignores that their religion is criminalized, their clans are frequently attacked, and even templars pursue them.


Several things:

-- Why is this so much more important wrt the Dalish than any of the other places where people may get an impression that is different from what you would like them to have? Because that's really what this amounts to.

-- Is it not entirely possible that some observers might believe the Dalish are arrogant isolationists even if they know the full story?

-- How is their religion criminalized? Are they arrested for doing something related to their religion?

-- Their clans are frequently squatting on someone else's land. I think I just did a war table mission last night to chase some human refugees off of some Ferelden noble's land...

-- Templars pursue every apostate.
 

If the Creators aren't traditional elven gods as the Dalish believe, then their faith in the Creators is wrong, and thus far we are told that they are villainous people.


By Fen'Harel - known to be a betrayer and trickster. The truth of anything Solas said remains to be seen. I expect a lot of us believed that Flemeth planned to steal Morrigan's body - and even went to slay her - for 2-1/2 games.

And you're still not dealing with the fact that we've been told nothing thus far that conflicts with what modern Dalish actually believe.
 

We frequently hear terms like "false gods" and "elven mages" used to describe the Creators in Trespasser, so it's also not an issue where we're asked to consider what a god actually is because this is never even remotely suggested by the story.


I've played it only once, and haven't seen all of the content, but I don't really remember those references.

#159
Pasquale1234

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Actually Morrigan herself asks "What is a god?"


'Tis an excellent question, too - and probably doesn't have any one single answer.

It'll be interesting to see whether any more is revealed about Urthemiel / Kieran - I'm still not entirely sure what that was all about.
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#160
Iakus

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Morrigan talks about being a 'god' in reference to Corypheus and the Inquisitor using the Anchor to enter the Black City, while - as I pointed out repeatedly at this point - the language used in Trespasser to describe the Creators are "false gods" and "elven mages".

And Morrigan's point remains:  If you gain enough power and immortality, to the point where others worship you as a god, does it matter if you are a "false" god or not?

 

What if Corypheus had succeeded in his schemes, would he have achieved godhood?

 

If elves are still willing to worship them, are they still "false" gods?  


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#161
LobselVith8

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Several things:

-- Why is this so much more important wrt the Dalish than any of the other places where people may get an impression that is different from what you would like them to have? Because that's really what this amounts to.

 

You're welcome to peruse the last several pages of this thread if you want to see the different reasons why some people find the imbalance between how the Andrastian faith is treated in comparison to non-Andrastian faiths to be an issue. The Dalish is cited as an example because of how the developers chose to say that their religion was wrong and that the Creators are not gods while they have continually professed (under Gaider and Weekes respectively) that the Maker will never be disproven.

 

-- Is it not entirely possible that some observers might believe the Dalish are arrogant isolationists even if they know the full story?

 

Considering how many times I've read people act like the Dalish could simply live alongside Andrastian humans if they stopped being so stubborn, it's clear that they aren't familiar with the whole story, or how the clans are repeatedly threatened because of their faith.

 

-- How is their religion criminalized? Are they arrested for doing something related to their religion?

 

The religion of the Dalish is outlawed in the Andrastian kingdoms. This is also the reason the ancestors of the city elves were forced to convert to the Andrastian faith.

 

-- Their clans are frequently squatting on someone else's land. I think I just did a war table mission last night to chase some human refugees off of some Ferelden noble's land...

 

Considering that humans occupy most of the continent and that their kingdoms span most of Thedas, I'm not certain what else you expect from the Dalish clans.

 

And you're still not dealing with the fact that we've been told nothing thus far that conflicts with what modern Dalish actually believe.

 

Let's look at one example: the Dalish believe Elgar'nan is the son of the Sun and of the land, and that he literally fought the Sun. The Dalish view the Creators as traditional gods. In short, you're wrong.



#162
The Elder King

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Well sorry if every other god has been proven to be false while the Maker still retains his perfection as if he does even care of those little apes of Thedas that are cursing his name....billions of years after their death he will still be there.

I doubt Solas will live for billion of years :whistle:.
Inquisition and Trespasser actually cast a lot of doubts on the Maker being real, at least in the way the Chantry envisions him.
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#163
LobselVith8

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And Morrigan's point remains:  If you gain enough power and immortality, to the point where others worship you as a god, does it matter if you are a "false" god or not?

 

Of course Solas is going to call them false, he was rebelling against them.  And he knew them as peers and wasn't in awe of their power.

 

Aside from the fact that I was pointing out that the Dalish view the Creators as traditional gods (which you didn't address at all in your posts), your retort was an example that had nothing to do with the Creators, and was in reference to another matter entirely. Your posts don't touch on the fact that Trespasser continually uses words like "elven mages" and "false gods" in the context of the individuals who the Dalish believe to be gods.

 

Considering that the stories of the Dalish involve Elgar'nan remaking the world and putting the Sun back in the sky, and the stars being the lifeblood of the sun that was spilled over in the fight with Elgar'nan (similar in tone to the mythology stories in the Elder Scrolls, like the one involving Magnus and his departure from Mundus creating the stars), it's clear that the Dalish view the Creators as traditional gods - not as powerful elven mages.


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#164
Pasquale1234

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You're welcome to peruse the last several pages of this thread if you want to see the different reasons why some people find the imbalance between how the Andrastian faith is treated in comparison to non-Andrastian faiths to be an issue.


I have read the entire thread, and the reason why this is an "issue" remains unclear.
 

The Dalish is cited as an example because of how the developers chose to say that their religion was wrong


Except they haven't.
 

and that the Creators are not gods


Except they didn't.
 

while they have continually professed (under Gaider and Weekes respectively) that the Maker will never be disproven.


There's really no way to disprove the existence of the Maker as presented, especially since people tend to make things up about him as they go along.
 

Considering how many times I've read people act like the Dalish could simply live alongside Andrastian humans if they stopped being so stubborn, it's clear that they aren't familiar with the whole story, or how the clans are repeatedly threatened because of their faith.


How are they threatened because of their faith? I don't believe I've ever seen any arrested for that reason. Merrill assembled an eluvian in Kirkwall's alienage. Feynriel's mother lived for a time in the alienage. Is there something they needed to be doing to practice their faith that they could not do under those circumstances?

(btw - it's entirely possible to be fully aware of the whole story, and still think the Dalish could integrate with humans if they weren't so arrogant and stubborn)
 

The religion of the Dalish is outlawed in the Andrastian kingdoms. This is also the reason the ancestors of the city elves were forced to convert to the Andrastian faith.


I wonder who the city elves are praying to at the vhenadahl tree.
 

Let's look at one example: the Dalish believe Elgar'nan is the son of the Sun and of the land, and that he literally fought the Sun. The Dalish view the Creators as traditional gods. In short, you're wrong.


We've already been through this. You insist that the legends are supposed to be taken literally. I see nothing in the lore that requires literal interpretation of their legends.

#165
LobselVith8

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I have read the entire thread, and the reason why this is an "issue" remains unclear.

 

I'd recommend re-reading it, then, rather than asking questions that have already been answered.

 

Except they haven't.

 

If the Creators aren't traditional gods - with the All-Father, Elgar'nan, cited as the son of the Sun and the land, for example, and responsible for the existence of the stars due to his battle with the Sun - then the Dalish faith in the Creators is wrong.

 

Except they didn't.

 

Which requires that we ignore the moments in Trespasser where the Creators are said to be "elven mages" and "false gods".

 

There's really no way to disprove the existence of the Maker as presented, especially since people tend to make things up about him as they go along.

 

One could have made that argument for the Creators before Inquisition since they were said to be trapped in the Eternal City by Fen'Harel, and yet they still managed to provide us with a story that said the Creators aren't gods.

 

How are they threatened because of their faith? I don't believe I've ever seen any arrested for that reason. Merrill assembled an eluvian in Kirkwall's alienage. Feynriel's mother lived for a time in the alienage. Is there something they needed to be doing to practice their faith that they could not do under those circumstances?

 

They are threatened because the Chantry outlawed their religion - it's also cited as the reason why the ancestors of the city elves were forced to convert, as I already stated. We also have Clan Sabrae mention in Act III that Andrastian humans threatened with them violence in attempts to force them to convert to the Andrastian faith.

 

(btw - it's entirely possible to be fully aware of the whole story, and still think the Dalish could integrate with humans if they weren't so arrogant and stubborn)

 

Given how their religion is criminalized by the Chantry, your comment doesn't make any sense. And that's not even factoring the existence of free mages among the Dalish.

 

I wonder who the city elves are praying to at the vhenadahl tree.

 

The Tree of the People isn't a deity to the City elves. The vhenadahl is a symbol of Arlathan to the City elves.​

 

We've already been through this. You insist that the legends are supposed to be taken literally. I see nothing in the lore that requires literal interpretation of their legends.

 

Perhaps, instead of trying to argue that the Dalish don't actually believe in their own religion, you can simply concede that you were wrong?



#166
DebatableBubble

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Projection!

I'm so glad the ME fandom doesn't deal with this ****.

#167
Kabraxal

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Huh... and here I thought that the fact that the Dread Wolf is a real figure and the Dwarven Stone is a real figure in the Titans to actually lend credence to those beliefs.  Are some of them overwrought or dramatic?  Yes.  But look at our history and how mere generals and figures of history were elevated into more mythical figures to the point the real figure is mostly lost to history.  Or how most religions through history are built around more concrete definitions of god that are more "extremely power beings" than the "omnipotent, unchanging, omnipresent" abstract that has become God to our monotheism today.  The Elven pantheon is very reminiscent of the ancient pantheons of earth.

 

The Dalish gods exist.  And in many ways, they have the powers and abilities that have been ascribed to them.  Clearly, over time some of that was lost or warped.  But the Dalish belief in an ancient kingdom ruled by their gods is actually proven to be true....... just not in the way some would want to accept. 

 

The titan exists.  And given how little we know, the titan could be the very "god" that the dwarven race was born from.  Which would then mean their beliefs are true.  As it stands, their beliefs are buoyed more than they are buried by the existence of the titans. 

 

In fact, Andrastean faith has taken more of a "blow" than either of those systems of belief.  In Origins, doubt was raised about the Ashes of Andraste.  In DA2 and DA:I, while the fact that the magisters did "invade" the Golden City is true, there is more doubt cast on the claims that the Black City is the seat of the maker. So many "miracles" attributed to the maker have been cast in doubt with the revelations of the Titans and Elven pantheon.  We have had no visions of Andraste or the maker.  We have had no miracles directly and unquestionably due to the Maker.  The closest any of the games have come to is Leliana and "Justinia"... one who directly state she does not know what she is and, if killed in Origins, Leliana is still clearly casting doubt on Andrastean faith given she died in the Temple with the same Lyrium casting doubt on the Ashes' powers. 

 

If anything, there is far more "favouritism" in terms of proving a religion true in any way with the Elves and dwarves than the Chantry and the Maker.  The Elven gods exist.  The Titans exist.  And it is actually brilliant, because it brings up so many questions on faith, godhood, history becoming legend, and a lot of heady discussions where Bioware is NOT giving us the answer.  It's given us the question and letting us come to our own determinations. 


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#168
Jedi Master of Orion

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You have to appreciate that some of us in this thread are atheists. The very concept of Andrastrianism, in that regard, is just conceptually suspect and already on shaky ground as even being capable of being "credited" so to speak. The degree to which its doctrinal claims are factually disproven in, among other places, DA:I (or rather the extent to which the faith basically abandons that doctrine to create post-hoc explanations to preserve itself) is just the clearest example of how it is, ultimately, vacuous nonsense. 

 

Ultimately, I can't help but view religious doctrine and faith through this analytical lens. This is why I'm disinclined to say anything we see about the Evanuris disproves them from being gods - apart from maybe the Titans, they are by far the closest things to gods in the setting. In particular, I think this a priori, definitional notion of "divinity" that people claim separates gods from superpowered beings is not just gibberish, but arguably directly falsifiable in DA based on the indirect evidence we have as to the supernatural nature of the elves and spirits (and arguable the spirits-become-flesh that some think the elves originally were). 

 

Personally, I am far more inclined to say the Evanuris are "gods" in the literal sense than the Maker, that basically sounds like a made-up nonsense being even by the internal logic of Andrastianism. 

 

Yes, I know that. To be perfectly honest, in my opinion, I think many atheists on BSN oftentimes have a tendency to let their real life beliefs unduly bias their perspectives on the Chantry. Because the fact of the matter is whatever you think about the truth of religious doctrine in real life is basically irrelevant to what direction Bioware will eventually take their own franchise. Whether or not God exists in real life has no bearing on whether the Maker exists in Bioware's setting.

 

I also think you're completely off base with the idea that the existence of supernatural creatures and powers inherently disproves the very concept that there is such a thing as divinity that separates gods from mortals. In both monotheistic and polytheistic religions, there exists the concept of supernatural beings, yet that doesn't mean they are all considered gods. Stories about supernatural or inhumanly powerful beings go back a long way, yet it has never undermined the premise of the divinity of gods in those same stories.

 

But real life religion isn't even the main reason for my perspective on this. There are many fantasy settings that are filled with magical beings where divinity is not an unclear or gibberish concept. In many D&D settings, gods exist with quantifiable divine powers and nature. Yet there are also many examples of non-divine magical beings. Bahamut and Tiamat are gods, a Dracolich is not, even if it was arrogant enough to think of itself as one. In the Warcraft universe, even powerful mages are arcane spellcasters do not use divine magic. The demon lords of the Burning Legion are not gods. But Elune is a goddess, and her priestesses use her divine powers. In Lord of the Rings, despite being magic and immortal, Lord Elrond is not a divine being. The Balrogs are not gods. Eru however, is.

 

Solas occasionally suggests that there is an actual standard for godhood that he and the Evanuris don't meet. But he also seems to imply that if there were such a thing as The Maker, he would meet it.

 

The reveal about the Evanuris, to me, is basically the equivalent of the dragon gods in one of the D&D settings being revealed to be powerful but ordinary dragons. 



#169
Seraphim24

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The Pharaohs did at times portray themselves as being divine, and as offspring or avatars of the gods. Usually particular gods only--like Ra or Horus, I think. But, they would be the Ra or Horus of the kingdom and of the earthly/mortal relam. Not of the entire world or universe as such.

This is somewhat a hard concept I had trouble with when I first started to study it. And this is true in Hinduism to some extent as well. There is an Indra of the above, and Indra of the below.

There is Zeus/Jupiter, ruler of Heaven. There is Zeus/Jupiter, as a divine archetype or genius that rules a city, or as the patron of an individual, etc.

Often in myth, when you read such and such god did this or that, it's not always literal. They could be used poetically in this sort of archetypical way to describe events or philosophical ideas. Poetry or theater were common devotional forms for the Greeks, but the myths weren't regarded as canon or revealed scripture, the same way as the Bible, etc. There were other versions of myths, depending on the region or time period.

 

Yay, a Sah post! :lol:


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#170
Sah291

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As far as the "just mages" versus "traditional gods" debate, I think we're missing a key difference between the way ancient and modern elves might have thought. There's a Veil now, causing a split or dualism between the idea of a spirit and the idea of a (physical) person.

To an ancient elf, they might have really considered their gods to have literally been their ancestors, whose spirits they continued to venerate. Those spirits could have become quite powerful in the Fade over time, and could continue to interact with people and the world.

But it happens IRL too. Every society has a mythic account about their cultural hereos or founding, who perhaps nowadays bare little resemblance to what they historically once were in real life. But it's more the spirit or idea that lives on and continues to grow.

The revelation the Creators started as regular elves/mages isn't so much the issue, in my opinion, so much as the fact they are being depicted as unambiguously evil and there being no option to comment about it in dialogue.
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#171
Sah291

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Yay, a Sah post! :lol:


Leave it to Bayonet Hipshot to churn out the interesting topics. ;)
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#172
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Yes, I know that. To be perfectly honest, in my opinion, I think many atheists on BSN oftentimes have a tendency to let their real life beliefs unduly bias their perspectives on the Chantry. Because the fact of the matter is whatever you think about the truth of religious doctrine in real life is basically irrelevant to what direction Bioware will eventually take their own franchise. Whether or not God exists in real life has no bearing on whether the Maker exists in Bioware's setting.

I also think you're completely off base with the idea that the existence of supernatural creatures and powers inherently disproves the very concept that there is such a thing as divinity that separates gods from mortals. In both monotheistic and polytheistic religions, there exists the concept of supernatural beings, yet that doesn't mean they are all considered gods. Stories about supernatural or inhumanly powerful beings go back a long way, yet it has never undermined the premise of the divinity of gods in those same stories.

But real life religion isn't even the main reason for my perspective on this. There are many fantasy settings that are filled with magical beings where divinity is not an unclear or gibberish concept. In many D&D settings, gods exist with quantifiable divine powers and nature. Yet there are also many examples of non-divine magical beings. Bahamut and Tiamat are gods, a Dracolich is not, even if it was arrogant enough to think of itself as one. In the Warcraft universe, even powerful mages are arcane spellcasters do not use divine magic. The demon lords of the Burning Legion are not gods. But Elune is a goddess, and her priestesses use her divine powers. In Lord of the Rings, despite being magic and immortal, Lord Elrond is not a divine being. The Balrogs are not gods. Eru however, is.

Solas occasionally suggests that there is an actual standard for godhood that he and the Evanuris don't meet. But he also seems to imply that if there were such a thing as The Maker, he would meet it.

The reveal about the Evanuris, to me, is basically the equivalent of the dragon gods in one of the D&D settings being revealed to be powerful but ordinary dragons.

I think you're conflating a number of ideas. My point about atheism is simply that we as people have different standards for the kind of evidence we would be inclined to say "disproves" a deity, as if such a concept were even possible. Different religious beliefs make radically different claims about the nature of divinity and the divine, as well as what it means to be a god. Acting as if these set down a universal standard is misguided by the very internal logic of the belief system we use.

Second, you misunderstood my point on the supernatural. It's twofold. The first is that IRL, we often draw a distinction between what is possible in reality and describable in the mechanical terms of science and what was thought possible in mythology. As a point in fact science rooted itself in ideas of natural philosophy and natural magic that sought mechanical descriptions for these phenomenon but that's besides the point. The essence of my point here is that the mere fact magic is real and allows supernatural feats does not mean a divine being is more or less likely to exist - it's an irrelevant feature. With one exception. The supernatural seems to endow beings with exactly those features we IRL argue are indicative of godhood. This ties in with the second point.

"Divinity" has no conceptual, a priori universal meaning. Throughout this thread you've made reference to real and fantasy mythology to draw a distinction between, say, a Pharaoh and Zeus. But this is a vacuous comparison because you've told us nothing about what it means to be "divine". Given how humanized the Greek gods appear to be apart from their superpowers - superpowers that mages have by nature in DA and the elvhen had in away incomprehensible to modern Thedas - the only unique feature to their nature apart from certain traits (immortality in the sense of agelessness that again all elves have) is that they were materially different kinds of beings from humans. They had something intrinsic to their nature that set them apart from human and we call it divine.

Well, in DAI we do have beings who are actually worshipped as having a divine spark - spirits, by the Avaar.

So my point is this: it's entirely plausible that the Evanuris have ALL the traits we ascribe to Greek gods, including that they are materially different beings from their worshipers. You go on to say this isn't good enough because somehow they're laying in this ill-defined concept of divinity - but the whole point is who gets to say that? There's no way from an internal perspective - from a person actually living and inhabiting this world - to say whether a being titling itself a god has this spark.

Solas says there's a standard HE believes denotes godhood and generally denies that any gods exist. His opinion on divinity isn't anything more than an opinion - even on the very fact of whether HE is a god.

The analogy to FR just doesn't work. It doesn't work because the concept of Gods that setting uses is gibberish. How does Kelevemor the mortal become a god? Because basically supergod makes him one. I would argue frankly none of the gods in FR are in any way gods and in fact that they are exactly what the Evanuris purport to be, except made that way by a potential supergod.

The point is that something isn't divine because the author says - this thing has divinity. That's beyond stupid, and that's part of the more sophisticated point being made intentionally or not in DAI.
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#173
Seraphim24

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Anyway I think Andraste was overtly favored... Gaider and Bio created her as an inspirational messianic figure.



#174
Iakus

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Aside from the fact that I was pointing out that the Dalish view the Creators as traditional gods (which you didn't address at all in your posts), your retort was an example that had nothing to do with the Creators, and was in reference to another matter entirely. Your posts don't touch on the fact that Trespasser continually uses words like "elven mages" and "false gods" in the context of the individuals who the Dalish believe to be gods.

 

Considering that the stories of the Dalish involve Elgar'nan remaking the world and putting the Sun back in the sky, and the stars being the lifeblood of the sun that was spilled over in the fight with Elgar'nan (similar in tone to the mythology stories in the Elder Scrolls, like the one involving Magnus and his departure from Mundus creating the stars), it's clear that the Dalish view the Creators as traditional gods - not as powerful elven mages.

 

Yes, yes, the Creators are not what the Dalish thought they were.

 

And?

 

Corypheus has cast serious doubt on the Chant of Light.

 

The existence of Titans casts all of dwarven history in doubt. 

 

As the series progresses, I'm reasonably sure that a lot of old assumptions are going to be stood on their heads.

 

Dragon Age is an age of change and upheaval for everyone.  Are you seriously getting p*ssed because it turns out Elgar'non didn't literally put the sun back in the sky?  Should people get p*ssed when, assuming Da4 is set in Tevinter, we'll have Chantry priests claiming Andraste was just a mage?

 

Also you say Trespasser uses phrases like "elven mages" and false gods"  but who used those terms?  Solas, who knows the true identity of the Evanuris?  The Viddasala, a  Qunari who, by definition, doesn't believe in any gods? 


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#175
Kabraxal

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Anyway I think Andraste was overtly favored... Gaider and Bio created her as an inspirational messianic figure.

 

Joan of Arc was actually the inspiration for Andraste.  Basically a "what if a new religion started around that type of figure".  Wouldn't say she is actually overtly favoured at all. Maybe they take a closer look in books or comics or even a game at some point.  But at this point she is nothing more than the central figure that pulled a religion into being.  Much like the Maker, nothing has stated one way or the other that her visions were real or that she was a master manipulator that used "divine inspiration" to grab power and seek to end the Tevinter reign over her land.