649 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

 
So my point is this: it's entirely plausible that the Evanuris have ALL the traits we ascribe to Greek gods, including that they are materially different beings from their worshipers. You go on to say this isn't good enough because somehow they're laying in this ill-defined concept of divinity - but the whole point is who gets to say that? There's no way from an internal perspective - from a person actually living and inhabiting this world - to say whether a being titling itself a god has this spark.
 

The fact that Mythal, or a piece of her, managed to survive beyond death to inhabit (and presumably sustain) Flemeth for several centuries already demonstrates the Evanuris are more than standard mages (at least by modern standards)

[Pasquale1234]

I'd recommend re-reading it, then, rather than asking questions that have already been answered.

They haven't been answered.
 

If the Creators aren't traditional gods - with the All-Father, Elgar'nan, cited as the son of the Sun and the land, for example, and responsible for the existence of the stars due to his battle with the Sun - then the Dalish faith in the Creators is wrong.

You keep harping on that - over and over and over again.

BUT AT NO POINT HAVE YOU DEMONSTRATED THAT ANY OF THAT IS PART OF MODERN DALISH BELIEF.

Do you really think that many people today believe all the stories about Zeus, Aphrodite, Poseidon, et. al.?
 

Which requires that we ignore the moments in Trespasser where the Creators are said to be "elven mages" and "false gods".

You continue to assume that anything a character says is supposed to be taken at face value - even though I've pointed out some specific examples where they were wrong.
 

They are threatened because the Chantry outlawed their religion - it's also cited as the reason why the ancestors of the city elves were forced to convert, as I already stated. We also have Clan Sabrae mention in Act III that Andrastian humans threatened with them violence in attempts to force them to convert to the Andrastian faith.

Which humans were those?

And what do you suppose this conversion actually involves? We've actually seen in-game other Dalish elves move to the city w/out giving up their beliefs. Do you suppose they aren't permitted to tattoo their faces?
 

Given how their religion is criminalized by the Chantry, your comment doesn't make any sense. And that's not even factoring the existence of free mages among the Dalish.

You keep saying it's criminalized, yet show no evidence of anyone ever being arrested or prosecuted for it. Your saying it does not make it so.

You've yet to demonstrate how alienage elves are prevented from practicing any non-Andrastian faith. In spite of your insistence that you know so much about Dalish belief, you've never offered any information about just exactly what their practices are. Do they pray? Meditate? Sacrifice virgins at an altar? Is the consumption of fish forbidden during a full moon? Do they hold hands and sing kum ba ya every morning?

What exactly is it that they're not being allowed to do?
 

The Tree of the People isn't a deity to the City elves. The vhenadahl is a symbol of Arlathan to the City elves.​

Correct. Yet, according to Sera, elves "pray at" the vhenadahl. What do you suppose that means?
 

Perhaps, instead of trying to argue that the Dalish don't actually believe in their own religion, you can simply concede that you were wrong?

Perhaps, instead of trying to argue that you know exactly what the Dalish believe, you can simply concede that you might be be mistaken?

[Seraphim24]

Huh... and here I thought that the fact that the Dread Wolf is a real figure and the Dwarven Stone is a real figure in the Titans to actually lend credence to those beliefs.  Are some of them overwrought or dramatic?  Yes.  But look at our history and how mere generals and figures of history were elevated into more mythical figures to the point the real figure is mostly lost to history.  Or how most religions through history are built around more concrete definitions of god that are more "extremely power beings" than the "omnipotent, unchanging, omnipresent" abstract that has become God to our monotheism today.  The Elven pantheon is very reminiscent of the ancient pantheons of earth.

 

The Dalish gods exist.  And in many ways, they have the powers and abilities that have been ascribed to them.  Clearly, over time some of that was lost or warped.  But the Dalish belief in an ancient kingdom ruled by their gods is actually proven to be true....... just not in the way some would want to accept. 

 

The titan exists.  And given how little we know, the titan could be the very "god" that the dwarven race was born from.  Which would then mean their beliefs are true.  As it stands, their beliefs are buoyed more than they are buried by the existence of the titans. 

 

In fact, Andrastean faith has taken more of a "blow" than either of those systems of belief.  In Origins, doubt was raised about the Ashes of Andraste.  In DA2 and DA:I, while the fact that the magisters did "invade" the Golden City is true, there is more doubt cast on the claims that the Black City is the seat of the maker. So many "miracles" attributed to the maker have been cast in doubt with the revelations of the Titans and Elven pantheon.  We have had no visions of Andraste or the maker.  We have had no miracles directly and unquestionably due to the Maker.  The closest any of the games have come to is Leliana and "Justinia"... one who directly state she does not know what she is and, if killed in Origins, Leliana is still clearly casting doubt on Andrastean faith given she died in the Temple with the same Lyrium casting doubt on the Ashes' powers. 

 

If anything, there is far more "favouritism" in terms of proving a religion true in any way with the Elves and dwarves than the Chantry and the Maker.  The Elven gods exist.  The Titans exist.  And it is actually brilliant, because it brings up so many questions on faith, godhood, history becoming legend, and a lot of heady discussions where Bioware is NOT giving us the answer.  It's given us the question and letting us come to our own determinations. 

 

I wasn't sure if it was necessary to delineate this, but then I saw your other comment in response to my other comment, so I guess I will now.

 

Andraste was favored in DA:O, but the effect of DA:I was to essentially ret-con the entirety of DA:O into a story about malicious pantheons and such. At this point Andraste really isn't even a part of the story at all, so in the present time Andraste isn't favored. In the beginning though, she was, it just depends on your time-frame.

 

DA:I essentially operated as a massive ret-con of the Dragon Age franchise as a whole, there really isn't a single thing that wasn't overturned into something else.

 

You could say it operated almost exactly as Joan of Arc IRL, a kind of hero figure etc and then the English ret-conned her into virulent heretic.

[Sah291]

Solas' qualifications for divinity are pretty different, but one thing he says is that a real god wouldn't need to prove themselves or enslave people (and people, as we know, includes spirits for Solas). Both Corypheus and the Evanuris crossed this line for him.

He likes the idea of the (absent) Maker for this reason. The fact that some of his actions have perhaps influenced Andrastian lore (about the creation of the Veil) are probably not lost on him either. Which makes me wonder if that comment to Cassandra was not also a bit of pride in some way.

[LobselVith8]

They haven't been answered.

 

Several pages had posts answering those kinds of questions.

 

You keep harping on that - over and over and over again.

BUT AT NO POINT HAVE YOU DEMONSTRATED THAT ANY OF THAT IS PART OF MODERN DALISH BELIEF.

Do you really think that many people today believe all the stories about Zeus, Aphrodite, Poseidon, et. al.?

 

Modern Dalish believe in the elven pantheon, and in the stories of the Creators. I don't understand your point in trying to argue that the Dalish don't believe in their own religion.

 

Which humans were those?

And what do you suppose this conversion actually involves? We've actually seen in-game other Dalish elves move to the city w/out giving up their beliefs. Do you suppose they aren't permitted to tattoo their faces?

 

It was mentioned that the Chantry outlawed their religion, and that the descendants of the City elves - the elves now forced to live under human rule - were forced to give up their religion and convert to the Andrastian faith, as the elven religion was now outlawed and prohibited.

 

As hahren Sarethia of the Highever Alienage described, "We were not enslaved as we had been before, but our worship of the ancient gods was now forbidden. We were allowed to live among the humans as second class citizens and worship their Maker, slowly forgetting once more the scraps of lore we had maintained through the centuries. Those that refused were forced to wander, landless and friendless in their wagons, across a world that told them they were unwelcome."

 

You continue to assume that anything a character says is supposed to be taken at face value - even though I've pointed out some specific examples where they were wrong.

 

When it's the only point of view made available in the storyline, I'm inclined to view it as a matter of what the writer intended to convey. When the story continually draws attention to the Creators not being gods by continually using phrases such as "elven mages" and "false gods" to describe them, I get the impression that this was the point that the writer was trying to convey.

 

Perhaps, instead of trying to argue that you know exactly what the Dalish believe, you can simply concede that you might be be mistaken?

 

I'm not the one arguing that the Dalish don't believe in their own religion - that would be you. I'm not the one ignoring all the Dalish codex entries on their gods and pretending as though the Dalish don't believe in the Creators or their mythological stories. We have codex entries on Elgar'nan (The Tale of Elgar'nan and the Sun, as told by Gisharel) and other Creators; this is also supported by WoT.

[Iakus]

I wasn't sure if it was necessary to delineate this, but then I saw your other comment in response to my other comment, so I guess I will now.

 

Andraste was favored in DA:O, but the effect of DA:I was to essentially ret-con the entirety of DA:O into a story about malicious pantheons and such. At this point Andraste really isn't even a part of the story at all, so in the present time Andraste isn't favored. In the beginning though, she was, it just depends on your time-frame.

 

DA:I essentially operated as a massive ret-con of the Dragon Age franchise as a whole, there really isn't a single thing that wasn't overturned into something else.

 

You could say it operated almost exactly as Joan of Arc IRL, a kind of hero figure etc and then the English ret-conned her into virulent heretic.

I'd say Andraste was more expanded on than retconned.

 

We've seen more of Thedas and learned that Andraste is the center of two different versions of the Chantry (North and South) as well as several other cults/minor religions.  All with different views on her and on the Maker.  So there are numerous different interpretations on her and her actions.  Any (or none) of which may be true.

 

In that sense The Chantry shares a bit with the Dalish.  Although they have not lost as much of their history and culture as they have, time, political expedience, and religious agendas have worn away the details of history.  Ameridan shows just how much history can get wrong in just a few centuries.

[In Exile]

When it's the only point of view made available in the storyline, I'm inclined to view it as a matter of what the writer intended to convey. When the story continually draws attention to the Creators not being gods by continually using phrases such as "elven mages" and "false gods" to describe them, I get the impression that this was the point that the writer was trying to convey.

 

Okay. Let's make it easy. Cite one source to demonstrate that the Dalish believe their myths are literal truth and not metaphor. Prove that they're the equivalent of modern day biblical literalists, a view that wasn't that common historically (actually). 

[LobselVith8]

Okay. Let's make it easy. Cite one source to demonstrate that the Dalish believe their myths are literal truth and not metaphor. Prove that they're the equivalent of modern day biblical literalists, a view that wasn't that common historically (actually). 

 

We have multiple codex entries on the Creators addressing their mythological stories as believed by the Dalish. We have references to Elgar'nan describing him as the son of the Son and the land. There is literally no evidence at all that even suggests that the Dalish don't believe in the elven pantheon and the stories surrounding them.

 

For example, when Keeper Gisharel talked about the Creator Sylaise, he said: "It is Sylaise who gave us fire and taught us how to use it. It is Sylaise who showed us how to heal with herbs and with magic, and how to ease the passage of infants into this world. And again, it is Sylaise who showed us how to spin the fibers of plants into thread and rope.

 

"We owe much to Sylaise, and that is why we sing to her when we kindle the fires and when we put them out. That is why we sprinkle our aravels with Sylaise's fragrant tree-moss, and ask that she protect them and all within."​

 

You don't frame mythological stories as something you currently believe if you don't currently believe in them.

[Kabraxal]

I'd say Andraste was more expanded on than retconned.

 

We've seen more of Thedas and learned that Andraste is the center of two different versions of the Chantry (North and South) as well as several other cults/minor religions.  All with different views on her and on the Maker.  So there are numerous different interpretations on her and her actions.  Any (or none) of which may be true.

 

In that sense The Chantry shares a bit with the Dalish.  Although they have not lost as much of their history and culture as they have, time, political expedience, and religious agendas have worn away the details of history.  Ameridan shows just how much history can get wrong in just a few centuries.

 

I had a long response typed out to the very same post and a backspace backed me out of the window

 

In short this is similar to what I was going to post.  Andraste has only ever been discussed in universe through the eyes of people that share a common understanding of history.  The only group, pre Inquisition, that would take issue with the "messianic" overtones would have been the Qunari, but rarely did we get into any religious debates with them.  Even Solas and that ancient elves could not really speak to the issue of Andraste since they were still locked away or "sleeping" at that point. 

 

The World of Thedas volumes do bring up some "we are not sure which stories of Andraste have been twisted over time" thoughts, but for Bioware itself, they have only ever treated Andraste as the warrior woman that claims she had divine inspiration.  They have never made it a point to contradict or prove that in any way. 

 

Though, in Origins I do believe Morrigan gives voice to the possibility she was simply a deluded woman or something like that.  In banter sequence with Leliana, she clearly says she finds no Maker to exist and somewhat implies that having visions from one isn't something to celebrate.  That is if I am recalling that back and forth correctly. If that is basically the case, then we have an in game callout casting doubt on Andraste,though a more implied manor.
 

[Pasquale1234]

We have multiple codex entries on the Creators addressing their mythological stories as believed by the Dalish. We have references to Elgar'nan describing him as the son of the Son and the land. There is literally no evidence at all that even suggests that the Dalish don't believe in the elven pantheon and the stories surrounding them.
 
For example, when Keeper Gisharel talked about the Creator Sylaise, he said: "It is Sylaise who gave us fire and taught us how to use it. It is Sylaise who showed us how to heal with herbs and with magic, and how to ease the passage of infants into this world. And again, it is Sylaise who showed us how to spin the fibers of plants into thread and rope.
 
"We owe much to Sylaise, and that is why we sing to her when we kindle the fires and when we put them out. That is why we sprinkle our aravels with Sylaise's fragrant tree-moss, and ask that she protect them and all within."​
 
You don't frame mythological stories as something you currently believe if you don't currently believe in them.

Excellent - we have not only the mythological legend but also actual current religious practice - singing to Sylaise while kindling fires and sprinkling the aravels with tree-moss.

This is what I've been asking about in terms of actual practices.

They aren't things that couldn't be practiced outside clan space, however.

So if we actually met Sylaise in game and found out that she did, indeed, do all of those things - but also did some not-so-good things - would that mean the faith had been invalidated?

[LobselVith8]

Excellent - we have not only the mythological legend but also actual current religious practice - singing to Sylaise while kindling fires and sprinkling the aravels with tree-moss.

This is what I've been asking about in terms of actual practices.

They aren't things that couldn't be practiced outside clan space, however.

So if we actually met Sylaise in game and found out that she did, indeed, do all of those things - but also did some not-so-good things - would that mean the faith had been invalidated?

 

If the Creators aren't gods in the traditional sense, then their faith was invalidated. Look at the story of Elgar'nan, the All-Father and God of Vengeance:

 

"Long ago, when time itself was young, the only things in existence were the sun and the land. The sun, curious about the land, bowed his head close to her body, and Elgar'nan was born in the place where they touched. The sun and the land loved Elgar'nan greatly, for he was beautiful and clever. As a gift to Elgar'nan, the land brought forth great birds and beasts of sky and forest, and all manner of wonderful green things. Elgar'nan loved his mother's gifts and praised them highly and walked amongst them often.​

 

"The sun, looking down upon the fruitful land, saw the joy that Elgar'nan took in her works and grew jealous. Out of spite, he shone his face full upon all the creatures the earth had created, and burned them all to ashes. The land cracked and split from bitterness and pain, and cried salt tears for the loss of all she had wrought. The pool of tears cried for the land became the ocean, and the cracks in her body the first rivers and streams.

 

"Elgar'nan was furious at what his father had done and vowed vengeance. He lifted himself into the sky and wrestled the sun, determined to defeat him. They fought for an eternity, and eventually the sun grew weak, while Elgar'nan's rage was unabated. Eventually Elgar'nan threw the sun down from the sky and buried him in a deep abyss created by the land's sorrow. With the sun gone, the world was covered in shadow, and all that remained in the sky were the reminders of Elgar'nan's battle with his father - drops of the sun's lifeblood, which twinkled and shimmered in the darkness."

 

We also have Merrill talk about the gods, and even address Mythal's vengeance when she explains why she prayed at an altar of Mythal. If the Creators aren't gods in the traditional sense, then they aren't gods in the way that the Dalish envisioned them to be.

[Pasquale1234]

^^ You do realize that in our universe, that story couldn't possibly be literal, right?

I mean, if they fought for an eternity, they'd still be fighting. The sun isn't exactly in the sky, and it's a whole lot bigger than this planet.

Do you honestly think this story is to be taken literally?

[German Soldier]

Just look at the Urn of Sacred Ashes quest: Oghren LITERALLY SAYS that the temple is built on a butt-ton of lyrium as an explanation for the goings-on, but the faithful would say that the Maker is ultimately responsible for the location of the Ashes. Wise as He is, maybe He knew the Guardian needed to subsist on lyrium idk.

 

Oghren said there was a lot of lyrium in the mountain and implied it could account for the healing powers of the ashes. He didn't tie the lyrium to the fade creatures (and they were fade creatures - they turn into "ash wraiths" if you kill fail the riddles). 

Oghren doesn't say that lyrium => spirits, but he does address the supposedly divine nature of the ashes in a more mundane way.,

More to the point, not all of the people who died to become ash wraiths died at the temple. So his theory doesn't make sense

[LobselVith8]

^^ You do realize that in our universe, that story couldn't possibly be literal, right?

 

Considering that this is part of a fictional religion in Thedas, it doesn't matter whether or not it could be literal in our universe. The mythological stories of the Elder Scrolls couldn't possibly be literal in our universe, for example, but they are still 'true' in the realm of the Elder Scrolls.

 

I mean, if they fought for an eternity, they'd still be fighting. The sun isn't exactly in the sky, and it's a whole lot bigger than this planet.

Do you honestly think this story is to be taken literally?

 

For "an eternity" is not the same as "for all eternity".

[Kabraxal]

If the Creators aren't gods in the traditional sense, then their faith was invalidated. Look at the story of Elgar'nan, the All-Father and God of Vengeance:

 

"Long ago, when time itself was young, the only things in existence were the sun and the land. The sun, curious about the land, bowed his head close to her body, and Elgar'nan was born in the place where they touched. The sun and the land loved Elgar'nan greatly, for he was beautiful and clever. As a gift to Elgar'nan, the land brought forth great birds and beasts of sky and forest, and all manner of wonderful green things. Elgar'nan loved his mother's gifts and praised them highly and walked amongst them often.​

 

"The sun, looking down upon the fruitful land, saw the joy that Elgar'nan took in her works and grew jealous. Out of spite, he shone his face full upon all the creatures the earth had created, and burned them all to ashes. The land cracked and split from bitterness and pain, and cried salt tears for the loss of all she had wrought. The pool of tears cried for the land became the ocean, and the cracks in her body the first rivers and streams.

 

"Elgar'nan was furious at what his father had done and vowed vengeance. He lifted himself into the sky and wrestled the sun, determined to defeat him. They fought for an eternity, and eventually the sun grew weak, while Elgar'nan's rage was unabated. Eventually Elgar'nan threw the sun down from the sky and buried him in a deep abyss created by the land's sorrow. With the sun gone, the world was covered in shadow, and all that remained in the sky were the reminders of Elgar'nan's battle with his father - drops of the sun's lifeblood, which twinkled and shimmered in the darkness."

 

We also have Merrill talk about the gods, and even address Mythal's vengeance when she explains why she prayed at an altar of Mythal. If the Creators aren't gods in the traditional sense, then they aren't gods in the way that the Dalish envisioned them to be.

 

One, no one is claiming that 100 percent of the Dalish legends must be literally true for their religion to have any merit. 

Two... considering the strength of these Evanuris, the fact the fade and world were far more interwined, and the creation of the veil was implied to be violent... these myths might hold true.  Either quite literally in the case of the division of fade and the world creating oceans and such or even poetically.  Remember, the fade reacts to perception and belief.  So an event back before the veil could have very well have been interpreted as a creation. 

 

You are looking at this much too literally.  Not just in the case of events being transformed over time as the tales are told, but actually in that a literal interpretation cannot work in the time of the Evanuris.  There was no veil.  Remember that.  Anything about that time would have to be taken through the lens that the fade would play a much larger role and the fade is heavily affected by perception and belief.  Literal truths have little place in such a world.  As Solas made clear in Inquisition if you talk to him.

[LobselVith8]

One, no one is claiming that 100 percent of the Dalish legends must be literally true for their religion to have any merit. 

 

It's not an issue about whether or not there's truth to them, it's an issue of whether or not the Creators are traditional gods as the Dalish believe them to be.

 

Two... considering the strength of these Evanuris, the fact the fade and world were far more interwined, and the creation of the veil was implied to be violent... these myths might hold true.  Either quite literally in the case of the division of fade and the world creating oceans and such or even poetically.  Remember, the fade reacts to perception and belief.  So an event back before the veil could have very well have been interpreted as a creation. 

 

Which I'm disinclined to believe because Trespasser focuses on emphasizing that they aren't gods - or else we wouldn't have the repeated usage of "elven mages" and "false gods" to describe them. And this is a separate issue than the one concerning the Creators as 'traditional gods'.

 

You are looking at this much too literally.  Not just in the case of events being transformed over time as the tales are told, but actually in that a literal interpretation cannot work in the time of the Evanuris.  There was no veil.  Remember that.  Anything about that time would have to be taken through the lens that the fade would play a much larger role and the fade is heavily affected by perception and belief.  Literal truths have little place in such a world.  As Solas made clear in Inquisition if you talk to him.

 

My initial discussion was actually concerning how the Dalish view the Creators as traditional gods - given how their religion shows that Elgar'nan is believed to be the son of the Sun and the land, for example, or how the Sun was put back in place because Mythal calmed Elgar'nan. Even Merrill cites these gods and their stories, so I don't see why some are trying to say that the Dalish don't believe in their own religion.

[German Soldier]

The revelations only "disprove" elven religion if you yourself take a very monotheistic, black-and-white view of what religion is and what the nature of a god is.

If people are willing to use the term "God" to describe beings with more power than average than it is in their right to do so but that doesn't equate to the same definition of God that Andrastians apply to the Maker which  is something akin to the perfect being.

 

"God" applied in polytheistic pantheons is often meant to describe flawed beings which happen to be revered.

"God" applied in Andrastianism is ascribing to the perfect being and is used to try to identify parametres of perfection.

[In Exile]

Considering that this is part of a fictional religion in Thedas, it doesn't matter whether or not it could be literal in our universe. The mythological stories of the Elder Scrolls couldn't possibly be literal in our universe, for example, but they are still 'true' in the realm of the Elder Scrolls.


For "an eternity" is not the same as "for all eternity".

It matters whether it can be literally true in Thedas, which it obviously can't since the sun isn't buried underground - for example - unless I'm misreading the story.

More to the point, the Dalish can pray to Mythal. She's real! And they do favours for her. Marethari actually knew her (or of her)! There clearly seems to be no issue for their belief.

[LobselVith8]

It matters whether it can be literally true in Thedas, which it obviously can't since the sun isn't buried underground - for example - unless I'm misreading the story.

More to the point, the Dalish can pray to Mythal. She's real! And they do favours for her. Marethari actually knew her (or of her)! There clearly seems to be no issue for their belief.

 

Mythal's story covers the sun being put back up in the sky, but it's part of Dalish mythology. Given that this type of story isn't unusual (just look at the stories of the Elder Scrolls to read about mythological stories in this vein) there's nothing out of the ordinary about them. There's no reason why the Dalish wouldn't believe in the stories from their own religion (if they follow their religion, that is).

 

More to the point, the Dalish can pray to Mythal. She's real! And they do favours for her. Marethari actually knew her (or of her)! There clearly seems to be no issue for their belief.

 

Asha'bellanar is real (or was, until Fen'Harel). Marethari knew Asha'bellanar. Not Mythal. Even Asha'bellanar admits that she's a shadow of what Mythal once was.

[In Exile]

We have multiple codex entries on the Creators addressing their mythological stories as believed by the Dalish. We have references to Elgar'nan describing him as the son of the Son and the land. There is literally no evidence at all that even suggests that the Dalish don't believe in the elven pantheon and the stories surrounding them.

For example, when Keeper Gisharel talked about the Creator Sylaise, he said: "It is Sylaise who gave us fire and taught us how to use it. It is Sylaise who showed us how to heal with herbs and with magic, and how to ease the passage of infants into this world. And again, it is Sylaise who showed us how to spin the fibers of plants into thread and rope.

"We owe much to Sylaise, and that is why we sing to her when we kindle the fires and when we put them out. That is why we sprinkle our aravels with Sylaise's fragrant tree-moss, and ask that she protect them and all within."​

You don't frame mythological stories as something you currently believe if you don't currently believe in them.

This is nonsense. The Christians - or rather many Christians sects - do not believe the biblical story of Genesis tells the literal creation story of the world. Are you saying these Christians don't believe in the bible? That's nonsense.

And you haven't proven that the Dalish believe these myths are literally true. You've given me a story that a Dalish Keeper - and here I will bring up your often mentioned point that the Dalish aren't a cultural monolith that unthingkly share the same values and beliefs - believes and teaches that a different god taught them about, among other things, gynecology and agriculture. Where does Solas say these things didn't happen? Everything we see in the temple of Mythal suggests something like this absolutely could and did happen. So you certainly haven't proven that this is much of a myth or that this is somehow challenged by DAI or Trespasser.

So I'm back to my original point. Which Dalish Keeper literally believes big E got into a fight with the sun, while being his son?

[Kabraxal]

It's not an issue about whether or not there's truth to them, it's an issue of whether or not the Creators are traditional gods as the Dalish believe them to be.

 

 

Which I'm disinclined to believe because Trespasser focuses on emphasizing that they aren't gods - or else we wouldn't have the repeated usage of "elven mages" and "false gods" to describe them.

 

In universe language from a character that can be noted as a biased source is proof of nothing though.  Solas may not see himself or his kin as gods, that does not mean his power and status is not the exact definition of god that most would adhere to.  It is quite clear that many of the events attributed to the Elven gods did indeed happen and they were beings of immense power in a world that was far less literal and defined by belief.  Many elves would probably be inclined to say "some of the stories might not have been true, but you are indeed gods".

 

And naturally non elves would be inclined to deny any form of divinity for beings that were never supposed to exist period.  The simple fact that the Dread Wolf just walked out of "fairy tales' and into reality is enough to cause the foundation of Andrastean faith to shake, at the very least.  Sera's response to the whole ordeal proves how Andrastean's are frightened what it means for their faith.  So between that and a biased source, you have what amounts to no proof of "traditional" godhood.  You are interpreting these events in such a way that you come to that conclusion.  It is clear, some of us are not willing to make that jump given the nature of the revelations and the fact the fade is very much in play with the events ascribed to these beings. 

 

Hell, the fact that Solas placed the veil to separate worlds is enough to suggest he at least has the powers as normally ascribed to a god.  Mix that in with the Avvar lore deepening the understanding of "spirits" and Solas' reference to the secret of immortality and suddenly much of how we define gods seem to apply to the Evanuris.  You can't get any closer to what most traditional gods used to be defined as without naming one Zues at this point. 

[LobselVith8]

This is nonsense. The Christians - or rather many Christians sects - do not believe the biblical story of Genesis tells the literal creation story of the world. Are you saying these Christians don't believe in the bible? That's nonsense.

 

What's nonsense is you using a modern context to address people in a fantasy setting that, while having modern elements to it (like the treatment of women, for example) isn't meant to be a modern setting.

 

And you haven't proven that the Dalish believe these myths are literally true.

 

It's part of the Dalish religion - the codex entries expand on the stories of the Creators. There's literally not one codex entry, piece of dialogue across all the Dragon Age games, or developer comment that suggests that the Dalish don't believe in the stories from their own religion.

 

Where does Solas say these things didn't happen? Everything we see in the temple of Mythal suggests something like this absolutely could and did happen. So you certainly haven't proven that this is much of a myth or that this is somehow challenged by DAI or Trespasser.

 

Solas explains how they weren't gods and regards them in a rather villainous manner, which is also different than how the Dalish view the Creators.

[In Exile]

Mythal's story covers the sun being put back up in the sky, but it's part of Dalish mythology. Given that this type of story isn't unusual (just look at the stories of the Elder Scrolls to read about mythological stories in this vein) there's nothing out of the ordinary about them. There's no reason why the Dalish wouldn't believe in the stories from their own religion (if they follow their religion, that is).


Asha'bellanar is real (or was, until Fen'Harel). Marethari knew Asha'bellanar. Not Mythal. Even Asha'bellanar admits that she's a shadow of what Mythal once was.

To your second point, this is a distinction without a difference. DA2 hints at the fact that Dalish keepers - or at least Marethari - have a real sense of what Mythal became. Yet that doesn't invalidate their faith.

To your first point, that doesn't prove the Dalish believe them to be literally true - to be actual factual accounts of real history, as opposed to a religious parable. Your view is that they're all religious literalists - but I haven't seen any proof offered.

Again, plenty of Christians and Jews believe in Genesis and that God created humanity and the Earth without literally believing this happened 6,000 or so years ago in a Garden somewhere on earth.

[In Exile]

What's nonsense is you using a modern context to address people in a fantasy setting that, while having modern elements to it (like the treatment of women, for example) isn't meant to be a modern setting.


It's part of the Dalish religion - the codex entries expand on the stories of the Creators. There's literally not one codex entry, piece of dialogue across all the Dragon Age games, or developer comment that suggests that the Dalish don't believe in the stories from their own religion.


Solas explains how they weren't gods and regards them in a rather villainous manner, which is also different than how the Dalish view the Creators.

Solas thinks a lot of things. He thinks the worst of the Dalish - yet somehow I don't see you talking about how DAI has conclusively shown the Dalish are arrogant and dismissive because Solas had a bad experience.

More to the point, you seem totally incapable of understanding analogies. The point of talking about Christianity (or Judaism) is simple: these are religions that have creation and other myths that their adherents believe in without believing in their literal truth. Some certainly do believe it is literally true - but not all.

Only in your mental fantasy has anyone said that the Dalish don't believe their own stories. Yet we all are struggling to convey to you that you can truly and sincerely believe in a religious story without believing it is literally true. You're arguing with a meaningless strawman.

Feel free to declare victory - but at this point you've thoroughly discredited your own position.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think you're conflating a number of ideas. My point about atheism is simply that we as people have different standards for the kind of evidence we would be inclined to say "disproves" a deity, as if such a concept were even possible. Different religious beliefs make radically different claims about the nature of divinity and the divine, as well as what it means to be a god. Acting as if these set down a universal standard is misguided by the very internal logic of the belief system we use.

Second, you misunderstood my point on the supernatural. It's twofold. The first is that IRL, we often draw a distinction between what is possible in reality and describable in the mechanical terms of science and what was thought possible in mythology. As a point in fact science rooted itself in ideas of natural philosophy and natural magic that sought mechanical descriptions for these phenomenon but that's besides the point. The essence of my point here is that the mere fact magic is real and allows supernatural feats does not mean a divine being is more or less likely to exist - it's an irrelevant feature. With one exception. The supernatural seems to endow beings with exactly those features we IRL argue are indicative of godhood. This ties in with the second point.

"Divinity" has no conceptual, a priori universal meaning. Throughout this thread you've made reference to real and fantasy mythology to draw a distinction between, say, a Pharaoh and Zeus. But this is a vacuous comparison because you've told us nothing about what it means to be "divine". Given how humanized the Greek gods appear to be apart from their superpowers - superpowers that mages have by nature in DA and the elvhen had in away incomprehensible to modern Thedas - the only unique feature to their nature apart from certain traits (immortality in the sense of agelessness that again all elves have) is that they were materially different kinds of beings from humans. They had something intrinsic to their nature that set them apart from human and we call it divine.

Well, in DAI we do have beings who are actually worshipped as having a divine spark - spirits, by the Avaar.

So my point is this: it's entirely plausible that the Evanuris have ALL the traits we ascribe to Greek gods, including that they are materially different beings from their worshipers. You go on to say this isn't good enough because somehow they're laying in this ill-defined concept of divinity - but the whole point is who gets to say that? There's no way from an internal perspective - from a person actually living and inhabiting this world - to say whether a being titling itself a god has this spark.

Solas says there's a standard HE believes denotes godhood and generally denies that any gods exist. His opinion on divinity isn't anything more than an opinion - even on the very fact of whether HE is a god.

The analogy to FR just doesn't work. It doesn't work because the concept of Gods that setting uses is gibberish. How does Kelevemor the mortal become a god? Because basically supergod makes him one. I would argue frankly none of the gods in FR are in any way gods and in fact that they are exactly what the Evanuris purport to be, except made that way by a potential supergod.

The point is that something isn't divine because the author says - this thing has divinity. That's beyond stupid, and that's part of the more sophisticated point being made intentionally or not in DAI.

 

My point was that trying to talk about Andrastian beliefs being discredited with a logical argument about evidence is pointless. Whether the Maker exists is or not is determined entirely by the writers. 

 

I suppose I can't really speak with the authority of being an expert on Ancient Greece or anything, but from what I remember learning about them, ancient gods are not just super powered humans. The inherent nature of the gods is that they they control why the universe works the way it does, at least in part.  They are responsible for the makeup and functioning of the afterlife and are responsible for spiriting the souls of mortals to those destinations. And they control the outcomes of the lives of mortals. Many ancient Greek tales involve their heroes being tossed around by the whims of fate. It's been a long time since I read any part or version of the Odyssey or Oedipus Rex, but wasn't the implication that the gods ultimately decided everything that happened to them?

 

The fact that the Sun rises as all was because of Ra or Apollo. Pharaohs, since we're using them as a contrast, can't control the laws of the cosmos. Even if they had superhuman lightning, hunting or transformation powers like the Evanuris.

 

As such, the Ancient Greeks believe Zues was divine, but I don't think they believed Medusa was divine. Even though she also has something that sets her apart from humanity.

 

It's only one of the examples I used, but: If you think the Forgotten Realms concept of divinity is gibberish, I'm not sure that even matters, because it's still true. Within the context of that setting, the gods have a unique power and a role that is described as divine, even out of universe. That's just how that setting works. And they do affecting the functioning of the universe, at least to a certain extent. Kelemvor does run part of the afterlife. 

 

Given that I said in another post that I don't believe Solas is wrong about the nature of the Evanruis, my point was that I believe the clear implication of Trespasser is that the Evanuris don't have all the traits associated with the Greek Gods. When it comes to the Creators, the Dalish religion has a specific vision of their them and their nature, and that it's this nature that makes them divine. But according to what we're told in Trespasser, the Evanruis do not have this nature. By the standards of their own Elven Religion, they are false gods. So while *I* don't think they are gods, the more important point is that the Dalish wouldn't think they are gods either. Hence the Dalish religion is proven false.