649 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

 

In universe language from a character that can be noted as a biased source is proof of nothing though.  Solas may not see himself or his kin as gods, that does not mean his power and status is not the exact definition of god that most would adhere to.  It is quite clear that many of the events attributed to the Elven gods did indeed happen and they were beings of immense power in a world that was far less literal and defined by belief.  Many elves would probably be inclined to say "some of the stories might not have been true, but you are indeed gods".

 

Let me cut this short: I don't particularly care to argue whether or not someone could classify them as gods in one context or another; it's simply not part of what I've been discussing. As far as the Dalish religion is considered, the People view the Creators as gods in the traditional sense. If the context in which the Dalish view the Creators isn't accurate, and the stories associated with them aren't true (like Elgar'nan fighting the Sun), then that means that their religion isn't accurate.

 

And naturally non elves would be inclined to deny any form of divinity for beings that were never supposed to exist period.  The simple fact that the Dread Wolf just walked out of "fairy tales' and into reality is enough to cause the foundation of Andrastean faith to shake, at the very least.  Sera's response to the whole ordeal proves how Andrastean's are frightened what it means for their faith.  So between that and a biased source, you have what amounts to no proof of "traditional" godhood.  You are interpreting these events in such a way that you come to that conclusion.  It is clear, some of us are not willing to make that jump given the nature of the revelations and the fact the fade is very much in play with the events ascribed to these beings. 

 

That's because I'm dealing with the rather absurd notion proposed by some people that the Dalish don't believe in their own religion, which is completely ludicrous. Whether or not you could classify the Evanuris as gods another a certain context isn't part of that discussion.

 

IHell, the fact that Solas placed the veil to separate worlds is enough to suggest he at least has the powers as normally ascribed to a god.  Mix that in with the Avvar lore deepening the understanding of "spirits" and Solas' reference to the secret of immortality and suddenly much of how we define gods seem to apply to the Evanuris.  You can't get any closer to what most traditional gods used to be defined as without naming one Zues at this point. 

 

Being powerful isn't the same as being a god in a traditional sense - as in being the son of the Sun, for example. Again, if you're trying to address that you could consider them gods under a certain context, that's simply not part of what I'm discussing. The Evanuris being gods under a certain context also doesn't make them gods in the way that the Dalish perceived them to be.

[Secret Rare]

Again, what is a god? Are the Avvar gods not gods because they're spirits? I think they still count. If the Old Gods are just dragons, are they not gods? I'd disagree with that, and I disagree that being a god-mage doesn't make you a god, either, unless you subscribe to a VERY specific definition of godhood.
 
 

What does their godhood means if they are flawed, not eternal and can be defeated?

It means nothing the elves or the old Tevinter may have revered them as gods but they weren't real gods for my standards.

[LobselVith8]

To your second point, this is a distinction without a difference. DA2 hints at the fact that Dalish keepers - or at least Marethari - have a real sense of what Mythal became. Yet that doesn't invalidate their faith.

 

I'm not discussing fan theories. We've known since "The Stolen Throne" that the Dalish have had ties with Asha'bellanar; it's also why Ariane knew where her hut was. The Creators being real doesn't validate their religion if the stories they believe about the Creators aren't true.

 

To your first point, that doesn't prove the Dalish believe them to be literally true - to be actual factual accounts of real history, as opposed to a religious parable. Your view is that they're all religious literalists - but I haven't seen any proof offered.

 

Considering that part of the reason that the Dalish live as they do is because they refused to give up their religious beliefs, I don't see any evidence to indicate that the Dalish don't believe in their own religion. The codex entries even refer to certain things that the Dalish do now because they believe the stories (as described in the codex entries) to be true. I see no reason to dismiss this.

 

Again, plenty of Christians and Jews believe in Genesis and that God created humanity and the Earth without literally believing this happened 6,000 or so years ago in a Garden somewhere on earth.

 

Again, you're using a modern context in a setting that isn't supposed to be modern, and you're asking me to ignore how the codex entries on the Creators also refer to how the Dalish currently believe in those stories in modern day Thedas. We have stories that say that Sylaise taught the elves domestic arts wand gave the elves fire, or how June taught the elves to make bows and arrows, and how halla came to be because of Ghilan'nain. We have the halla viewed as sacred, and animals who help usher the Dalish into the afterlife. You're asking me to subscribe to your theory despite how the codex entries and the narrative (including Merrill's own dialogue on the elven gods) doesn't support it.

[The Elder King]

What does their godhood means if they are flawed, not eternal and can be defeated?
It means nothing the elves or the old Tevinter may have revered them as gods but they weren't real gods for my standards.

As far as we know the Evanuris are immortals. And to stop them Solas had to create something that changed the world completely. They couldn't be defeated by normal means, otherwise he'd have done it. And Gods can be defeated, as the greek gods demonstrated.
Also, gods can be flawed, in appearance and personality. The greek gods are again perfect examples of this.

[Reznore57]

 

 

Being powerful isn't the same as being a god in a traditional sense - as in being the son of the Sun, for example. Again, if you're trying to address that you could consider them gods under a certain context, that's simply not part of what I'm discussing. The Evanuris being gods under a certain context also doesn't make them gods in the way that the Dalish perceived them to be.

 

 

There's no being a god in a traditional sense , it is usually something/someone beyond the human condition.

The Dalish saw their Gods as the people who build their civilisation , which is true.

Elgarn'an being "Son of the Sun" or Mythal creating the moon or even their Gods being trapped in the Eternal city in the Beyond is absolutely not what the Dalish care about.That's tale around the campfire for them.

What they mourn is the lost of their empire which was protected by the Gods , it isn't mystical or anything ...they are not afraid of their souls being lost without their Gods guiding them through the beyond...which they should be if you belive their tales.

They don't care about the Golden City which they should care about if again you listen to the tales.

They don't cry for the afterlife , they cry for Arlathan.Which they believe was a city.

 

For them the Gods are people who taught them to hunt , who taught them medecine , who kept their ennemy at bay.They never believed in the Creators the same way Andrastian believed in the Maker.

The Maker has better stuff to do than teach people how to forage , and he doesn't give a crap about Val Royeaux.

[Kabraxal]

 

 

 

Let me cut this short: I don't particularly care to argue whether or not someone could classify them as gods in one context or another; it's simply not part of what I've been discussing. As far as the Dalish religion is considered, the People view the Creators as gods in the traditional sense. If the context in which the Dalish view the Creators isn't accurate, and the stories associated with them aren't true (like Elgar'nan fighting the Sun), then that means that their religion isn't accurate.

 

 

That's because I'm dealing with the rather absurd notion proposed by some people that the Dalish don't believe in their own religion, which is completely ludicrous. Whether or not you could classify the Evanuris as gods another a certain context isn't part of that discussion.

 

 

Being powerful isn't the same as being a god in a traditional sense - as in being the son of the Sun, for example. Again, if you're trying to address that you could consider them gods under a certain context, that's simply not part of what I'm discussing. The Evanuris being gods under a certain context also doesn't make them gods in the way that the Dalish perceived them to be.

 

Except you are making a biased call on how they perceive them to be.  And on what constitutes "traditional" god.... for crying out loud, the gods of the Vikings had immense powers but were not immortal in the strictest sense or infallible.  Same goes for many of the religions filled with pantheons similar to the Dalish Creators.

 

Basically, you are choosing an extremely narrow definition of traditional god, though it has no support in our world and no set definition in the world of Thedas.  That is why almost no one is agreeing with your assertion. Quite simply:

 

These beings exist... as stated by the Dalish beliefs.

These beings actually caused many of the events... as stated by the Dalish beliefs.

These beings have proven to have powers associated with godlike figures... as stated by Dalish beliefs.

These beings, while killable in some ways, still seem to have a sense of immortality... unknown if immortality is even necessary in Dalish belief.

We even have the immortality of at least some elves being proven true... clearly indicated in every single Dalish tradition we have been exposed to. 

 

If anything, the Dalish traditions are being proven more true than they are outright false. 
 

[LobselVith8]

Solas thinks a lot of things. He thinks the worst of the Dalish - yet somehow I don't see you talking about how DAI has conclusively shown the Dalish are arrogant and dismissive because Solas had a bad experience.

 

Because I was pointing out how Trespasser frames how the Creators aren't gods numerous times through different phrases like "elven mages" and "false gods". I cited it as the reason why I don't think the point of Trespasser was to question what makes a god. You seem to have missed that as the point I was making as to why I - I - don't think we were supposed to question what it means to be a god.

 

More to the point, you seem totally incapable of understanding analogies. The point of talking about Christianity (or Judaism) is simple: these are religions that have creation and other myths that their adherents believe in without believing in their literal truth. Some certainly do believe it is literally true - but not all.

 

That's probably because the Dalish codex entries on their gods consider them to be actual stories that the People believe in. None of them are treated as fables that the Dalish don't believe them. A few examples:

 

"It is Sylaise who gave us fire and taught us how to use it. It is Sylaise who showed us how to heal with herbs and with magic, and how to ease the passage of infants into this world. And again, it is Sylaise who showed us how to spin the fibers of plants into thread and rope.

 

"We owe much to Sylaise, and that is why we sing to her when we kindle the fires and when we put them out. That is why we sprinkle our aravels with Sylaise's fragrant tree-moss, and ask that she protect them and all within."

 

Or: "When the People were young, we wandered the forests without purpose. We drank from streams and ate the berries and nuts that we could find. We did not hunt, for we had no bows. We wore nothing, for we had no knowledge of spinning or needlecraft. We shivered in the cold nights, and went hungry though the winters, when all the world was covered in ice and snow.

 

"Then Sylaise the Hearthkeeper came, and gave us fire and taught us how to feed it with wood. June taught us to fashion bows and arrows and knives, so that we could hunt. We learned to cook the flesh of the creatures we hunted over Sylaise's fire, and we learned to clothe ourselves in their furs and skins. And the People were no longer cold and hungry."

 

Or: "And Ghilan'nain prayed to the gods for help. She prayed to Elgar'nan for vengeance, to Mother Mythal to protect her, but above all she prayed to Andruil. Andruil sent her hares to Ghilan'nain and they chewed through the ropes that bound her, but Ghilan'nain was still wounded and blind, and could not find her way home. So Andruil turned her into a beautiful white deer - the first halla. And Ghilan'nain found her way back to her sisters, and led them to the hunter, who was brought to justice.​

 

"And since that day, the halla have guided the People, and have never led us astray, for they listen to the voice of Ghilan'nain."​

 

The halla - who are sacred to the People, who guide the clans, and who they believe shepherd them into the afterlife when they die. There's no indication that the Dalish don't believe in the stories from their religion, particularly when the codex entries are framed as stories that the Dalish currently believe to be true.

 

Feel free to declare victory - but at this point you've thoroughly discredited your own position.

 

I'm sure you felt the same way when I pointed out to you that it made no sense to blame the Dalish because the developers decided to make the children of elves and humans entirely human.

[Sah291]

@LobselVith8,

What do you think being the "son of the Sun" means exactly?

In other words, why do you think Elgar'nan being a mage would mean that he isn't?

[LobselVith8]

There's no being a god in a traditional sense , it is usually something/someone beyond the human condition.

 

Elgar'nan being the son of the Sun and the land is an example of how the Dalish view one of the Creators as a god in the 'traditional' sense. Even the Dragon Age tabletop RPG referenced the Dalish believing these stories, with one example being that Mythal was literally born from the sea, and how she created the moon (reading: the "Dalish believe that Mythal was born of the sea").

 

The Dalish saw their Gods as the people who build their civilisation , which is true.

 

The People also thought that their gods were benevolent, which doesn't seem to be true - this would be an obvious point of contention.

 

For them the Gods are people who taught them to hunt , who taught them medecine , who kept their ennemy at bay.They never believed in the Creators the same way Andrastian believed in the Maker.

 

With part of the issue being that, with Trespasser, we're told that they were villainous. The Dalish don't believe their gods to be villainous.

[Pasquale1234]

If people are willing to use the term "God" to describe beings with more power than average than it is in their right to do so but that doesn't equate to the same definition of God that Andrastians apply to the Maker which  is something akin to the perfect being.
 
"God" applied in polytheistic pantheons is often meant to describe flawed beings which happen to be revered.
"God" applied in Andrastianism is ascribing to the perfect being and is used to try to identify parametres of perfection.

I just wanted to use your post to point out that even Andrastians believe in the existence of multiple gods.

Though they do set up the Maker as the big omnipotent one, they also sort of revere Andraste as if she is a god.

Also - their (Andrastian) theories about the origin of the blights involve a group of 7 old gods.

[LobselVith8]

Except you are making a biased call on how they perceive them to be.  And on what constitutes "traditional" god.... for crying out loud, the gods of the Vikings had immense powers but were not immortal in the strictest sense or infallible.  Same goes for many of the religions filled with pantheons similar to the Dalish Creators.

 

No, I'm pointing out how the Dalish religion views the Creators. Their own codex entries are framed from the perspective that the stories are told - that Elgar'nan is the son of the Sun and fought the Sun, and that Mythal calmed him and lead to the return of the sun to the sky while their battle created the stars. I'm simply disinclined to stay silent when people pretend that the Dalish don't believe in their own religion.

 

Basically, you are choosing an extremely narrow definition of traditional god, though it has no support in our world and no set definition in the world of Thedas.  That is why almost no one is agreeing with your assertion.

 

No, I used 'traditional god' in the hopes that I wouldn't end up in a tiresome debate as to what a 'god' actually means because I didn't want to spend page after page debating what a god actually is.

 

Given that the Dalish are inspired, in part, by Native Americans and their own mythology is similar to some creation stories, the idea that the Dalish can't 'possibly believe in them' is actually offensive to me. These stories are hardly less absurd than an invisible god 'marrying' a mortal woman (one of his Children, technically). The double-standard bothers me very much.

 

If anything, the Dalish traditions are being proven more true than they are outright false. 

 

I'd certainly agree that they got some things right.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I just wanted to use your post to point out that even Andrastians believe in the existence of multiple gods.

Though they do set up the Maker as the big omnipotent one, they also sort of revere Andraste as if she is a god.

Also - their (Andrastian) theories about the origin of the blights involve a group of 7 old gods.

 

The Chant of Light always describes the Old Gods as false gods, though.

[MisterJB]

We know that the developers have said that they will never answer whether or not the Maker is real - while the faith of the Dalish is invalidated. That's a rather stark difference in how the two faiths are treated.

Because, from a meta viewpoint, the faiths are simply not the same.

 

Dragon Age was created on a basis of a realistic fantasy setting. What would really happen if elves and humans and dwarves lived together, etc. With this in mind, Andrastianism is the realistic religion that has to be based on faith and whose deity can't be proven or disproven.

 

On the other hand, the elven faith is your typical fantasy pantheon with the god of fire, justice, etc which they feel it doesn't have to be as grounded in reality.

 

[Nimlowyn]

Well, if nothing else, if Solas is to be believed, the Creators are not who the Dalish thought they were because they enslaved them. Nothing in Dalish religion depicts their gods as their slavers. It is a sad, cruel irony.

 

I enjoyed this development (in a I-am-completely-crushed-this-is-such-good-storytelling kind of way), but I can understand how others would not. This was an 11th hour reveal, so we'll see how it develops. 

[LobselVith8]

@LobselVith8,

What do you think being the "son of the Sun" means exactly?

In other words, why do you think Elgar'nan being a mage would mean that he isn't?

 

The stories of the Creators are framed quite literally in the same way that Andrastians literally believe that the Maker is responsible for creation. They are somewhat reminiscent of some Native American tales that are also taken literally - stories that explain their people and the world around them. Elgar'nan being a mage would mean that he isn't the son of the Sun, that he never fought the Sun, and that would mean other stories - like Mythal being born of the sea - also wouldn't be true.

 

If they were tyrannical mages - assuming Trespasser is true and the Evanuris are as villainous as Solas claimed - I also don't see why the Dalish would continue to believe in them. The Creators they believed in weren't villainous beings.

[duckley]

Doesn't their representation of religion in Thedas mirror what we see in RL? Religious beliefs held by the majority are honored, and the rest are marginalized, often hated, and worse than that, are frequently targets for annihilation.

[Pasquale1234]

I'm simply disinclined to stay silent when people pretend that the Dalish don't believe in their own religion.

For my part, all I've ever done is questioned whether they do believe that these old stories and legends are the literal truth, and whether they worship (?) these gods today.

I could tell you some great stories about Zeus and Hera, but that doesn't mean I worship them. It also doesn't tell you whether I believe any of it to be true.

Leliana told me this great story about Alindra and her soldier. I didn't make any assumptions about whether she believes it to be true.
 

Given that the Dalish are inspired, in part, by Native Americans and their own mythology is similar to some creation stories, the idea that the Dalish can't 'possibly believe in them' is actually offensive to me.

Did anyone actually say that?
 

These stories are hardly less absurd than an invisible god 'marrying' a mortal woman (one of his Children, technically). The double-standard bothers me very much.

Eh?

What double standard? You think the people who are questioning Dalish beliefs* in this thread are adherents of Andrastianism?

(Note: in this context, by "questioning Dalish beliefs" I mean asking WHAT the Dalish actually believe, not the truth of those beliefs.)
 

The Chant of Light always describes the Old Gods as false gods, though.

Perhaps false in the sense that they aren't the Maker.

But I don't care how they're viewed, nor am I suggesting that any Andrastian would ever worship them, follow them, whatever. I'm merely pointing out that the theories behind the blight - theories believed by Andrastians - acknowledge the existence of these old gods.

[Secret Rare]

 

 

You can read the rest of it in the DA wiki, but to me that reads like the Maker creating the Veil. 

How does that part of the chant light imply the Maker did the veil since the veil is in itself never mentioned nor i saw anything that  implied it?

[In Exile]

How does that part of the chant light imply the Maker did the veil since the veil is in itself never mentioned nor i saw anything that implied it?

Think back to the Library in Trespasser. The discussion of the Veil is that it split the world in two: that it separated the realm unchanging (the Fade and the spirits) from the "real" world. The passage there describes the Maker doing this very thing - it doesn't need to use the word Veil, IMO.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

 

 

I would rather like someone on Thedas to apply an analytical mindset to this question and come up with the answer: "Well, I can't know with complete certainty, but all our knowledge is preliminary, and based on what I observe, I can preliminarily conclude that there is no Maker".

 

This supposed to be the analytical mindset? @what straykat is saying.

I think people bring way too much of their own baggage to this.

[Secret Rare]

Think back to the Library in Trespasser. The discussion of the Veil is that it split the world in two: that it separated the realm unchanging (the Fade and the spirits) from the "real" world. The passage there describes the Maker doing this very thing - it doesn't need to use the word Veil, IMO.

No it doesn't is more akin to the description of the passage that brings spirits to become flesh and soul which is something implied to  be occuring  in Arlathan even Solas is implied to have beared this transformation,it's not something related to the veil.

[In Exile]

Because I was pointing out how Trespasser frames how the Creators aren't gods numerous times through different phrases like "elven mages" and "false gods". I cited it as the reason why I don't think the point of Trespasser was to question what makes a god. You seem to have missed that as the point I was making as to why I - I - don't think we were supposed to question what it means to be a god.


That's probably because the Dalish codex entries on their gods consider them to be actual stories that the People believe in. None of them are treated as fables that the Dalish don't believe them. A few examples:

"It is Sylaise who gave us fire and taught us how to use it. It is Sylaise who showed us how to heal with herbs and with magic, and how to ease the passage of infants into this world. And again, it is Sylaise who showed us how to spin the fibers of plants into thread and rope.

"We owe much to Sylaise, and that is why we sing to her when we kindle the fires and when we put them out. That is why we sprinkle our aravels with Sylaise's fragrant tree-moss, and ask that she protect them and all within."

Or: "When the People were young, we wandered the forests without purpose. We drank from streams and ate the berries and nuts that we could find. We did not hunt, for we had no bows. We wore nothing, for we had no knowledge of spinning or needlecraft. We shivered in the cold nights, and went hungry though the winters, when all the world was covered in ice and snow.

"Then Sylaise the Hearthkeeper came, and gave us fire and taught us how to feed it with wood. June taught us to fashion bows and arrows and knives, so that we could hunt. We learned to cook the flesh of the creatures we hunted over Sylaise's fire, and we learned to clothe ourselves in their furs and skins. And the People were no longer cold and hungry."

Or: "And Ghilan'nain prayed to the gods for help. She prayed to Elgar'nan for vengeance, to Mother Mythal to protect her, but above all she prayed to Andruil. Andruil sent her hares to Ghilan'nain and they chewed through the ropes that bound her, but Ghilan'nain was still wounded and blind, and could not find her way home. So Andruil turned her into a beautiful white deer - the first halla. And Ghilan'nain found her way back to her sisters, and led them to the hunter, who was brought to justice.​

"And since that day, the halla have guided the People, and have never led us astray, for they listen to the voice of Ghilan'nain."​

The halla - who are sacred to the People, who guide the clans, and who they believe shepherd them into the afterlife when they die. There's no indication that the Dalish don't believe in the stories from their religion, particularly when the codex entries are framed as stories that the Dalish currently believe to be true.


I'm sure you felt the same way when I pointed out to you that it made no sense to blame the Dalish because the developers decided to make the children of elves and humans entirely human.

Where do you keep getting this nonsense that anyone here has said the Dalish don't belive in their own myths? We have all repeatedly said the opposite: that we are asking for proof that their belief is literal rather than metaphorical. So far you've cited two examples: the story about Sylase teaching the elves about gynecology (which Solas 100% does not disprove and the revelation at the temple of Mythal supports, indirectly) and the DA RPG. I don't consider this RPG to be a source of canon, when nothing in any of the games suggests a literal belief in these mythological events. The story with Sylase is completely unlikely the story about El - one is about some poetic fight with the sun, the other is about teaching how children are born. Only one is making fantastical claims in a manner that could be treated as something other than allegorical. It's hard for me to comprehend how you can keep ascribing a position to others they don't hold.

It sounds to me like you're the one projecting your theory of what faith should be on the Dalish and on this setting.

I don't recall any source in Trespasser suggesting the Evanuris are just mages. Do you have codex entries you can point me to? All I recall is dialogue from Solas.

And I'm not going to derail this thread by circling back to your philosophical endorsement of white supremacism.

[In Exile]

No it doesn't is more akin to the description of the passage that brings spirits to become flesh and soul which is something implied to be occuring in Arlathan even Solas is implied to have beared this transformation,it's not something related to the veil.

There's very little evidence that the elves were originally spirits. That's a far more radical interpretation of the Chant of light than the commonly adopted theory that it stands for the Maker creating the Veil.

[LobselVith8]

I could tell you some great stories about Zeus and Hera, but that doesn't mean I worship them. It also doesn't tell you whether I believe any of it to be true.

 

We know from the first scene of the Dalish Origin that the Dalish worship their gods. This is also made clear if an Andrastian Warden ignorantly asks one of the Dalish in Zathrian's clan if they actually believe in gods rather than the Maker.

 

What double standard? You think the people who are questioning Dalish beliefs* in this thread are adherents of Andrastianism?

(Note: in this context, by "questioning Dalish beliefs" I mean asking WHAT the Dalish actually believe, not the truth of those beliefs.)

 

In that no one asks whether Andrastians believe that the Maker is actually responsible for creation, or whether or not Andrastians believe that the Maker created spirits or spoke to Andraste. It's a double-standard when people act like the Dalish can't possibly believe in their own religious stories and this thread gets derailed for page after page because of this nonsense.

[In Exile]

We know from the first scene of the Dalish Origin that the Dalish worship their gods. This is also made clear if an Andrastian Warden ignorantly asks one of the Dalish in Zathrian's clan if they actually believe in gods rather than the Maker.


In that no one asks whether Andrastians believe that the Maker is actually responsible for creation, or whether or not Andrastians believe that the Maker created spirits or spoke to Andraste. It's a double-standard when people act like the Dalish can't possibly believe in their own religious stories and this thread gets derailed for page after page because of this nonsense.

No one acts this way. You've created a ridiculous standard for what it means for the Dalish to believe their own faith: that they have to believe it all literally and it's actually contrary to their faith to treat any part of it as allegory. The reason no one asks the same point about Andrastianism - which isn't event actually true because my FIRST post in this thread was about how Adrastians love to pretend a part of their own doctrine they said should be believed literally five minutes ago is treated like allegory five minutes later, and accused them basically of being self-serving frauds - is that there's really clear evidence that they have a diversity of views ranging from those who believe certain things are literally true that have been disproven whIle others (like mother Gisele) insist that it's all allegory.

The double standard exists only in the imaginary people you're debating with, not the ones participating in this thread.