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Tamassran Sexual Services vs Gender & Sexuality


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#26
Yermogi

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I would assume that, as has been said, since men can also be priests that they can serve as sex workers. I get the feeling that there's two different groups of Tamassarans- the sex workers, who can be both male and female since men can be priests, and the ones who raise the children, who sound as though they are exclusively female. Also, I feel like they couldn't make the sex just mechanical where all Tamassarans are female, so if you're a straight female you're out of luck. If you want to release this pent up stress, and for the sake of others around you they also want you to release pent up stress, then you should go to someone who firstly you're attracted to, and secondly who can do the job well. If you're a gay male and not into bondage, but all you have is females who use those techniques exclusively, that's not going to do much for you. So I feel like when it comes to sex, they'd have to take into account personal preferences regarding both the gender of your partner(s) and the kind of sex you have. It makes no sense to me personally that they would have everyone, regardless of gender preference or sexual appetites, be stuck in a situation where at least a half to two-thirds of the population would be sexually unsatisfied. For a culture that seems very bent on people being satisfied with their roles, this seems like it would be a very stupid situation to find themselves in.

 

This is probably a situation where BW never thought to clarify this one thing since they have so much to work on, so now that people are actually starting to ask questions about it, they'll probably have to ask each other "Wait, how DOES this work?" The simplest solution, as stated above, would be to simply make sex-Tamassarans both male and female.



#27
Dai Grepher

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But if you follow the IKEA instructions, don't you risk accidentially ending up with a shelve instead of an orgasm? That would be awkward.


Or worse yet... parts missing.
 

I did occasionally wonder about this. Men or women can be in the Ben-Hassrath, but I think Tamassrans are all female.


No. Some males can be tamassrans if they show the abilities of one. It's just not common.
 

So why bother delineating between the sexes when someone can just be called another sex?


Which is why what Iron Bull says about the matter is likely a lie intended to make Krem feel better.

I don't see the Qunari ignoring physical biology and favoring someone's skill over the truth. They aren't going to call someone the gender they are not simply because they show talents of the opposite sex.

At best, I can only see the term "aqun-athlok" referring literally to someone who IS their biological sex, but who lives like the other. Meaning, a man who crafts fabrics, or a woman who trains soldiers. It isn't that the Qunari individual believes he or she is the opposite sex, or that they are thought of as the opposite sex by others. It's simply a matter of someone of a certain sex being good at the things the opposite sex is good at.

However, even this seems more like a loophole to get around the demand of the Qun that certain roles be given to individuals based on physical gender.

So I don't believe Iron Bull's claim about "aqun-athlok". Athlok simply means laborer. Qun means Qun. Aqun? Not sure. But I'm not seeing anything about gender in it at all.

#28
Qun00

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All I know is that they are a damn good reason to convert to the Qun. :P

#29
Hanako Ikezawa

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This is just another reason to destroy the Qun institution. It has sex slaves. 


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#30
Cyberpunk

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I am looking at Dragon Age wikia. No mention of Tamassran providing sexual services. They seem to direct it but do not provide it. So...yeah. Tamassran are not giving out sexual services by themselves. They assign who mates with who. So both genders are assigned. 



#31
Nocte ad Mortem

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To reply to the "men can join the priesthood" posts, my assumptions were based off the Wiki stating that men can join the Ariqun in some capacities, but it states the Tamassran specifically are a female gender role. I don't know if this is outdated/wrong information, though. Here's the link:

 

http://dragonage.wik.../wiki/Tamassran



#32
Gervaise

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A lot of what Iron Bull says seems to contradict what we have previously been told about the Qun.   However, did he actually say that the Tamassrans act as servers in state brothels?    I think his words were that the Tamassrans took care of his sexual needs.    The World of Thedas says that they arrange and approve conception.   It is just possible that what Bull thought was simply another visit to get his needs catered for, the Tamassrans used as another mating opportunity for him.    Like the local stallion turning up to service one of their mares.   "Here comes Hissrad again!  Who have we got on the list for him?"   Some of his mates enjoyed the experience more than others; hence sometimes it was in and out in a jiffy and in other cases it was a prolonged drawn out affair that made him walk funny.    It would surely be a lot easier to arrange a successful mating if he was showing himself ready to participate than if they simply ordered him to. 



#33
nightscrawl

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I am looking at Dragon Age wikia. No mention of Tamassran providing sexual services. They seem to direct it but do not provide it. So...yeah. Tamassran are not giving out sexual services by themselves. They assign who mates with who. So both genders are assigned.


Wanting and getting a sexual release is not the same thing as being assigned a mating partner to produce more qunari.

#34
nightscrawl

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A lot of what Iron Bull says seems to contradict what we have previously been told about the Qun.   However, did he actually say that the Tamassrans act as servers in state brothels?    I think his words were that the Tamassrans took care of his sexual needs.    The World of Thedas says that they arrange and approve conception.   It is just possible that what Bull thought was simply another visit to get his needs catered for, the Tamassrans used as another mating opportunity for him.    Like the local stallion turning up to service one of their mares.   "Here comes Hissrad again!  Who have we got on the list for him?"   Some of his mates enjoyed the experience more than others; hence sometimes it was in and out in a jiffy and in other cases it was a prolonged drawn out affair that made him walk funny.    It would surely be a lot easier to arrange a successful mating if he was showing himself ready to participate than if they simply ordered him to.


He says "they pop your cork whenever you need it." The whole dialogue does make it seem like it's the tamassrans themselves who provide that service.

I tried to find a YT video of him talking about the Qun, but I wasn't successful.
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#35
Nocte ad Mortem

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A lot of what Iron Bull says seems to contradict what we have previously been told about the Qun.   However, did he actually say that the Tamassrans act as servers in state brothels?    I think his words were that the Tamassrans took care of his sexual needs.    The World of Thedas says that they arrange and approve conception.   It is just possible that what Bull thought was simply another visit to get his needs catered for, the Tamassrans used as another mating opportunity for him.    Like the local stallion turning up to service one of their mares.   "Here comes Hissrad again!  Who have we got on the list for him?"   Some of his mates enjoyed the experience more than others; hence sometimes it was in and out in a jiffy and in other cases it was a prolonged drawn out affair that made him walk funny.    It would surely be a lot easier to arrange a successful mating if he was showing himself ready to participate than if they simply ordered him to. 

 

I don't think it's a case of the Tamassran just arranging breeding services and that's what he meant, because he makes it sound like they're just sexual services for enjoyment's sake. He says, "there are Tamassran that will pop your cork" and talks about how it might be quick or an all day thing, which definitely sounds like they are the ones doing this. If you flirt with him by saying he's "never known true passion", he describes an experience he had at with these services, which is what sounds like a strap on being used and says "more than one person was involved", so it sounds like this is potentially some pretty freaky stuff. Not just the usual "sex for breeding".



#36
Nocte ad Mortem

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Which is why what Iron Bull says about the matter is likely a lie intended to make Krem feel better.

I don't see the Qunari ignoring physical biology and favoring someone's skill over the truth. They aren't going to call someone the gender they are not simply because they show talents of the opposite sex.

At best, I can only see the term "aqun-athlok" referring literally to someone who IS their biological sex, but who lives like the other. Meaning, a man who crafts fabrics, or a woman who trains soldiers. It isn't that the Qunari individual believes he or she is the opposite sex, or that they are thought of as the opposite sex by others. It's simply a matter of someone of a certain sex being good at the things the opposite sex is good at.

However, even this seems more like a loophole to get around the demand of the Qun that certain roles be given to individuals based on physical gender.

So I don't believe Iron Bull's claim about "aqun-athlok". Athlok simply means laborer. Qun means Qun. Aqun? Not sure. But I'm not seeing anything about gender in it at all.

Narratively speaking, this theory isn't very likely. They're unlikely to introduce lore and then say it was just a lie later, because it's a pointless exercise. If it wasn't true, they probably would have conveyed it to you as part of Iron Bull's characterization, because it would be an important point if he were willing to misrepresent the Qun for a friend's feelings. That's very "not Qunari" behavior. Not using this narrative point, however, it would serve no purpose but to confuse people about the Qun, where usually they introduce these semi-out of place for the main narrative characters, like Iron Bull and Fenris, just to offer perspectives on places and cultures they plan to use more later. What he said is most likely true. I doubt anything we got out of Iron Bull about the Qun is factually incorrect.

 

Most likely, the Qun does believe that those that don't fit their assumed gender roles are simply not of their physical gender. The fact is, the belief that one gender is always going to be better than the other at specific roles is false. It's not true, and it can be pretty easily demonstrated as false. If they didn't have some way to mitigate this, then a core feature of their society could easily be proven nonsensical. Is there illogical implications in deciding the exception to the rule is simply not their physical gender, but their gender role? Sure. But it's less illogical than having the clear fact that some men are better organizers than most women and some women are better fighters than most men just there in the open, completely unexplained or addressed. 

 

I think the problem you're having is that you're assuming the most important thing here about gender in the Qun is the same as in your culture, meaning physical parts. I think that's probably not true to them. The most important thing, to them, is the role they fill. Their role is the most important aspect to them in all aspects of their lives, while the physical is a secondary concern. If they have to bend on one, then they'd rather it be on the physical aspect. 


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#37
Wulfram

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I'd just consider it a question of Iron Bull or someone glossing over minor details. Perhaps the sex workers aren't tamassrans but another related role, but Bull didn't think it worth bringing in another word that wouldn't mean anything to non-Qun. Or possibly "tamassran" is broad enough to include some roles that include males and saying that they were all female was a simplification.

Or possibly the writers had a minor screw up, but if so I don't think its a difficult thing to "fix".

#38
Qun00

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This is just another reason to destroy the Qun institution. It has sex slaves.


Not from their point of view. As most Qunari, they are happy to fulfill their role.

#39
Gervaise

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Just working off the idea that the Qunari waste nothing.   Having Bull pop in for a bit of sexual pleasure and not use it for breeding in some way seems a bit of a waste.   I'm not saying it wasn't just sexual relief but it occurred to me that they could have a list of potential mates lined up for him and just wheel one of them out as appropriate.   Given the way everything is organised, may be there are some women who are just used for breeding because they have the right body, temperament, etc.  May be that's how you get the job of Tamassran in the first place, so when you are not breeding you are actually raising the kids.   I realise that doesn't make allowance for LGBT qunari so who knows, may be they do have people who specially cater for whatever your sexuality and gender is and it has nothing to do with breeding.

 

The stuff if you use the heart icon does sound a bit kinky.   It's why I wonder if that is where he got his bondage ideas from.   I'll give you what you need, not what you want, is something that sounds it could come straight out of the Tamassran sex manual.    All the use of special words and the like to say when you've had enough but not doing so by mistake.   I know this is what happens in the real world but I am just equating it back to Thedas and where Bull would have come up with ideas like that.   Okay may be he picked it up in a normal brothel in southern Thedas but it just makes me think of the controlling aspects of the Qun.   Nothing is spontaneous and everything is controlled even in sex. 



#40
Nocte ad Mortem

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Not from their point of view. As most Qunari, they are happy to fulfill their role.

I think it probably equates to some of them being willing and some of them basically being sex slaves. It's true that there are faithful that serve the Qun to the letter and do whatever the Qun suggests is their role in life. It's also true that the Qun hemorrhages numbers to the Tal-Vashoth, because not everyone born into the Qun just accepts it. It's true that they will use physical force and chemically augmented brainwashing techniques including torture devices, such as sleep deprivation, if you actively disagree with your role. I'm sure some are "happy to fill their role", but I'm also sure that's not true about all of them. 


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#41
Asdrubael Vect

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People are accept as 100% truth every Bull word and not even think that Bull is a Hissrad-LIYER and his words means nothing what was showed in Tresspacer for all who let him be in Qun

 

And that thing what he is mention about Crem is a huge lie so Crem would be happy, noone in Qun would allow Crem to think as be a soldier-male in Qun as Sten was said sinse DAO, if someone born as male or female they have their roles as would be raised by Tamasrans will and if they are refuse they will be reeducated, brainwashed or executed, and thats all

 

Crem maybe could be only as Tallis-assasin/spy but never in military and never could become someone like Arishok as noone would ever consider Crem as male in Qun cause she was born as female and it would be the same reaction like Sten have, Qunari will just try to reeducate Crem

 

And the only sex what Qunari have in Qun society is when Tamasran need more slaves to raise

 

Let be honest, Bull just telling lies to Inquisitor and Crem about parts of Qun life, it is his work



#42
Nocte ad Mortem

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I was pretty sure there had been dev confirmation of the Tamassran sexual services before, because it seemed like I remembered conversations about it before Iron Bull's commentary. I tried using the search function to find that and I didn't really, but I found this thread that links an interview with Patrick Weekes about writing Iron Bull:

 

https://forum.biowar...and-krem/page-1

 

"Looking at how the qunari treat sex and what sex means for them and what is and isn't’ considered taboo, that was, in addition to just being goofy fun–which is certainly part of the reason we wrote him–it would be interesting to see, okay, here is a culture that is really in touch with their physical side and just completely removes the taboo on things. ‘Oh, okay this is what you need? Well, great, we’re gonna calm you down, we’re gonna have fun, alright, awesome, great, have a good day."

 

The thread links to a video of this interview. If you play the second video on the page and skip to 26min in, that's where Weekes dialog is. I listened to it and the transcript is accurate, but you can also hear it if you want from the link. 

 

I would say this is confirmation that the Qunari do not have a taboo on sex without attachment and the services are offered as Iron Bull presents. So, I think that should probably address whether these are breeding services vs just sex, or whether Iron Bull lied to you.


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#43
thats1evildude

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I'm telling you guys, the qunari probably use "implements" for their sex therapy. Gender becomes irrelevant.

Fun fact: the vibrator (or rather, its shitty precursors) was originally invented to treat "hysteria" in the 19th century.

https://www.psycholo...story-vibrators

#44
Nocte ad Mortem

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Confirmation that Iron Bull didn't lie to us and aqun-athlok is legit, by David Gaider:

 

https://forum.biowar...dice/?bioware=1

 

So, basically, the "he's just making it up" argument is out. lol

 

It also seems like he's suggesting what some people in this thread suspected, that you're assigned as an aqun-athlok. It's not a choice. So, for example, Cassandra and Aveline would have likely been aqun-athlok if they were born into the Qun, or at least they would have been re-educated until they either agreed or were vegetables. I don't know exactly what that means for biologically male aqun-athlok that might be involved in Tamassran sexual services, though.  



#45
Lazarillo

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Narratively speaking, this theory isn't very likely. They're unlikely to introduce lore and then say it was just a lie later, because it's a pointless exercise.

Let me tell you about Mythal...
Okay, not really. But I'm just saying, it wouldn't be the first time.

If it wasn't true, they probably would have conveyed it to you as part of Iron Bull's characterization, because it would be an important point if he were willing to misrepresent the Qun for a friend's feelings. That's very "not Qunari" behavior. Not using this narrative point, however, it would serve no purpose but to confuse people about the Qun, where usually they introduce these semi-out of place for the main narrative characters, like Iron Bull and Fenris, just to offer perspectives on places and cultures they plan to use more later. What he said is most likely true. I doubt anything we got out of Iron Bull about the Qun is factually incorrect.

I think the key is that while you are correct, that the "facts" are true, the context is probably very misleading. For example, when you ask him what would happen to your companions under the Qun, he makes a remark about how Vivienne probably couldn't pull her political bullcrap (or something along that nature). Well, yeah. Because she'd have her mouth sewn shut, be chained, and forced into servitude as a living bomb, more or less. His statement is factually true.

So is aqun-athlok totally an actual thing within the Qun. Yes, there's no reason to doubt that. Are they actually as friendly and accepting of such as Iron Bull is and indicates that others are? Probably not. This sort of designation is probably only used in extreme circumstances, and is not as pleasant for the person involved as just going "okay, yep, you're a (wo)man now!".
 

I think the problem you're having is that you're assuming the most important thing here about gender in the Qun is the same as in your culture, meaning physical parts. I think that's probably not true to them. The most important thing, to them, is the role they fill. Their role is the most important aspect to them in all aspects of their lives, while the physical is a secondary concern. If they have to bend on one, then they'd rather it be on the physical aspect.

The problem with this is that if sex is based on role, then designations of sex are pointless. They might as well just say "all soldiers are soldiers" and "all priests are priests", for example.
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#46
Nocte ad Mortem

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So is aqun-athlok totally an actual thing within the Qun. Yes, there's no reason to doubt that. Are they actually as friendly and accepting of such as Iron Bull is and indicates that others are? Probably not. This sort of designation is probably only used in extreme circumstances, and is not as pleasant for the person involved as just going "okay, yep, you're a (wo)man now!".

There's a link above where David Gaider talks quite a bit about how they conceptualize the aqun-athlok in the Qun. It appears it's not "friendly and accepting", because it's not something you choose for yourself. It's not a situation where a person comes to their own conclusion about their own gender identity and it's just immediately respected. From Gaider's explanation, my impression is that the Tamassran decide for you. Thus, some people would be declared aqun-athlok just because their skills lean a certain way, while some that feel they should be would not be accepted as such. 



#47
Dai Grepher

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Narratively speaking, this theory isn't very likely. They're unlikely to introduce lore and then say it was just a lie later, because it's a pointless exercise.


Like the elvhen pantheon?

If it wasn't true, they probably would have conveyed it to you as part of Iron Bull's characterization, because it would be an important point if he were willing to misrepresent the Qun for a friend's feelings.


Hissrad's title/job description is "liar", and he obviously cares about Krem's feelings and even gets defensive if you ask him if he's okay with Krem really being a woman.

That's very "not Qunari" behavior.


It's Ben-Hassrath behavior. He is a spy. It is not his role to give bas truthful information about the Qunari that might endanger the homeland.

Not using this narrative point, however, it would serve no purpose but to confuse people about the Qun, where usually they introduce these semi-out of place for the main narrative characters, like Iron Bull and Fenris, just to offer perspectives on places and cultures they plan to use more later. What he said is most likely true. I doubt anything we got out of Iron Bull about the Qun is factually incorrect.


He says things that directly contradict Sten in Origins. Sten states that a woman cannot be a man, yet Iron Bull believes that Krem is a man. Sten also strongly implies that Qunari do not have sex with others except when matched to a mate for procreative purposes. Others have also pointed out how Bull's claim about the cork popping seems to contradict Qunari culture of discipline and not wasting resources.

Most likely, the Qun does believe that those that don't fit their assumed gender roles are simply not of their physical gender. The fact is, the belief that one gender is always going to be better than the other at specific roles is false. It's not true, and it can be pretty easily demonstrated as false.


So what? The point is the Qunari believe that is true.

If they didn't have some way to mitigate this, then a core feature of their society could easily be proven nonsensical.


The Qun would be proven nonsensical if they made an illogical exception to the rule, because not only would the rule still exist, it would be broken in certain cases and yet still not repealed. It would be more logical to simply eliminate the rule, rather than keep it and break it at times.

Is there illogical implications in deciding the exception to the rule is simply not their physical gender, but their gender role? Sure. But it's less illogical than having the clear fact that some men are better organizers than most women and some women are better fighters than most men just there in the open, completely unexplained or addressed.


I think they do address it. According to Sten one gender cannot be the other, and living on the moon is as attainable. So I think the logical choice for Qunari would be to take the female who is a superior fighter, dismiss that reality as a fluke, and stick her in a female role anyway, perhaps finding her second greatest skill and going with that.

I think the problem you're having is that you're assuming the most important thing here about gender in the Qun is the same as in your culture, meaning physical parts. I think that's probably not true to them.


"I do not understand, you look like a woman." -Sten

The most important thing, to them, is the role they fill.


They are given their roles based on their physical gender.

Their role is the most important aspect to them in all aspects of their lives, while the physical is a secondary concern. If they have to bend on one, then they'd rather it be on the physical aspect.


"Why would your women wish to be men? That makes no sense." -Sten

They aren't going to deny physical reality. They are simply going to send the warrior woman to cut flowers instead of necks. She cannot wish to be a man...

"That can lead only to frustration." -Sten

#48
Nocte ad Mortem

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They aren't going to deny physical reality. They are simply going to send the warrior woman to cut flowers instead of necks. She cannot wish to be a man...

Weirdly enough, in the thread I linked where David Gaider tells us the aqun-athlok are legit, I noticed your username was one he specifically quoted. I would think if the lead writer of a game told me that my interpretations of it were wrong, I would remember. 



#49
Dai Grepher

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Confirmation that Iron Bull didn't lie to us and aqun-athlok is legit, by David Gaider:
 
https://forum.biowar...dice/?bioware=1
 
So, basically, the "he's just making it up" argument is out. lol


No, this just confirms that David Gaider is wrong about the canon facts of the series. Gaider is out of BioWare now, and no longer works on Dragon Age. So his baseless opinion means nothing.

#50
Dai Grepher

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Weirdly enough, in the thread I linked where David Gaider tells us the aqun-athlok are legit, I noticed your username was one he specifically quoted. I would think if the lead writer of a game told me that my interpretations of it were wrong, I would remember.


I do remember, and I also remember proving him wrong.