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[Nocte ad Mortem]

No, this just confirms that David Gaider is wrong about the canon facts of the series. Gaider is out of BioWare now, and no longer works on Dragon Age. So his baseless opinion means nothing.

He literally says in the thread "when we talked about..". It's obvious that he was a part of this decision. He was still acting as lead writer during the main game DA:I development period. It's absurd to think he doesn't know the truth about this and you do. You can keep thinking what you want, but I'm not going to continue this conversation with you when there's clear confirmation that you're incorrect. 

[Jaison1986]

He literally says in the thread "when we talked about..". It's obvious that he was a part of this decision. He was still acting as lead writer during the main game DA:I development period. It's absurd to think he doesn't know the truth about this and you do. You can keep thinking what you want, but I'm not going to continue this conversation with you when there's clear confirmation that you're incorrect. 

 

It can be true. but you know, writers themselves are not immune to bad writing. I personally find Gaider explanation of qunari gender roles ridiculous when I compare to the stuff Sten said back in DAO.

[thats1evildude]

Well, it's not really contradictory. It just means that Sten can't grasp how the Warden can be a fighter and also present themselves as a woman.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

It can be true. but you know, writers themselves are not immune to bad writing. I personally find Gaider explanation of qunari gender roles ridiculous when I compare to the stuff Sten said back in DAO.

Whether you're happy about the decision or not is up to you, of course. 

 

What Gaider says is that Sten doesn't agree with the Warden presenting and identifying as a woman and still acting as a warrior, so it's a different situation, though. It's implied that, in the Qun, she would be forced to present as Krem does, as a man. There isn't an option to identify as male while choosing a female base, so it's not like they could make that dialog relevant. Although, he does also say that they had, in fact, not planned for the aqun-athlok back then, so there is that. Personally, I don't think it contradicts, but how you feel about the addition is subjective. As a general, I'm not that invested either way. 

[Jaison1986]

Whether you're happy about the decision or not is up to you, of course. 

 

What Gaider says is that Sten doesn't agree with the Warden presenting and identifying as a woman and still acting as a warrior, so it's a different situation, though. It's implied that, in the Qun, she would be forced to present as Krem does, as a man. There isn't an option to identify as male while choosing a female base, so it's not like they could make that dialog relevant. Although, he does also say that they had, in fact, not planned for the aqun-athlok back then, so there is that. Personally, I don't think it contradicts, but how you feel about the addition is subjective. As a general, I'm not that invested either way. 

 

I admit you make a fair point. The thing for me is, the qunari have aways been presented as an very anti-individualistic society that is very practical and very literal. So I simply see the qunari - as they were presented in DAO and DA2 - not caring at all about Krem personal views. I believe that if someone like Krem was introduced to the qunari, all they would care is that Krem is biologically a woman, and would need to work on their society as one, be it as a farmer, priest, artisan, etc. And if Krem were to protest about gender, the qunari would just see it as a simple delusion, sending them to a education facility untill their views were "fixed". 

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I admit you make a fair point. The thing for me is, the qunari have aways been presented as an very anti-individualistic society that is very practical and very literal. So I simply see the qunari - as they were presented in DAO and DA2 - not caring at all about Krem personal views. I believe that if someone like Krem was introduced to the qunari, all they would care is that Krem is biologically a woman, and would need to work on their society as one, be it as a farmer, priest, artisan, etc. And if Krem were to protest about gender, the qunari would just see it as a simple delusion, sending them to a education facility untill their views were "fixed". 

Well, what Gaider is basically saying in those posts, as I interpret it, is that they wouldn't care about Krem's personal views. He's more vague than he probably could have been, but let's look at this paragraph from the thread:

 

"Be careful how you picture the process of becoming aqun-athlok. If you picture someone announcing it, and suddenly the Tamassrans fall all over themselves to abide by that person's wishes, that's not really in keeping with what we've established about Qunari society...and neither is it something Iron Bull implies when he explains the existence of the term. From what you've said, I think the hitch is probably your perception of it as a choice."

 

Basically, what he's saying is that the Qunari assign you to what gender role you fit, not what your biology suggests and definitely not just what you want to be. What a lot of people are missing is that the existence of the aqun-athlok doesn't necessarily mean they just respect your decision to change your gender and live as that role if they don't personally think it fits. It's not necessarily the same as the trans movement in real life, which is how a lot of people are reading it. Your gender role is their decision, not yours. This isn't saying they care more about your personal identity than other societies. It's basically saying they care even less, as usual. 

[Jaison1986]

Well, what Gaider is basically saying in those posts, as I interpret it, is that they wouldn't care about Krem's personal views. He's more vague than he probably could have been, but let's look at this paragraph from the thread:

 

"Be careful how you picture the process of becoming aqun-athlok. If you picture someone announcing it, and suddenly the Tamassrans fall all over themselves to abide by that person's wishes, that's not really in keeping with what we've established about Qunari society...and neither is it something Iron Bull implies when he explains the existence of the term. From what you've said, I think the hitch is probably your perception of it as a choice."

 

Basically, what he's saying is that the Qunari assign you to what gender role you fit, not what your biology suggests and definitely not just what you want to be. What a lot of people are missing is that the existence of the aqun-athlok doesn't necessarily mean they just respect your decision to change your gender and live as that role if they don't personally think it fits. It's not necessarily the same as the trans movement in real life, which is how a lot of people are reading it. Your gender role is their decision, not yours. This isn't saying they care more about your personal identity than other societies. It's basically saying they care even less, as usual. 

 

But in that case, the Sten scene in Origins with the female warden should have gone completely different, while considering BW explanation on the issue. Rather then be weirded out by the female warden fighting as a warrior, shouldn't he simply treat her as a man, and then the confusion would only happen once she proclaims she is woman, and not a man? 

[Nocte ad Mortem]

But in that case, the Sten scene in Origins with the female warden should have gone completely different, while considering BW explanation on the issue. Rather then be weirded out by the female warden fighting as a warrior, shouldn't he simply treat her as a man, and then the confusion would only happen once she proclaims she is woman, and not a man? 

Gaider suggests in the thread that Sten has already come to the conclusion that she is presenting as a woman when they have that conversation. I mean, it would most likely be easy enough to tell after a short time together. The fact that people call her any female gender terms during their time together and she doesn't object would do it. I don't think it seems weird to believe he realized she was identifying as female without asking it specifically.

 

The female Warden in DA:O identifies and presents as a woman. Sten notices she does. He also notices she acts as a warrior. So, his objection is that she can't do both of those things. He's not a Tamassran, remember, so it's not exactly his job to decide which one is right, but he knows enough about their culture to be sure it can't be both.

[Gervaise]

As I understand it Krem is not presenting as a woman trying to do a man's job but a man doing a man's job.   In the Qun the Tamassrans would probably pick up on the fact that the young person was seemingly thinking and acting like a man and if challenged might well say "I am a man".   More assessment would have them agree that clearly the person was best suited to male roles.    It is not contradicting their thinking on gender roles because they all agree that the person is a man doing a man's job regardless of their genitals.   What they would object to is a woman behaving as a woman, identifying as a woman and yet wanting to do a specifically male role.   At least I think that is how it works.

[Lazarillo]

There's a link above where David Gaider talks quite a bit about how they conceptualize the aqun-athlok in the Qun. It appears it's not "friendly and accepting", because it's not something you choose for yourself. It's not a situation where a person comes to their own conclusion about their own gender identity and it's just immediately respected. From Gaider's explanation, my impression is that the Tamassran decide for you. Thus, some people would be declared aqun-athlok just because their skills lean a certain way, while some that feel they should be would not be accepted as such.

And see, what I'm saying is it's probably even more horrifying than just that, when you get right down to it. Think about it from a real world perspective: I'm a guy, both in terms of biology and identity, and I work in education, so my "role" in the Qun might actually be similar to that of a Tamassran. So if the Qunari conquered real life, I'd have to be a "woman". But as it's presented by Bull, the "woman" designation wouldn't be anything other than a differing set of pronouns that would take a little while to get used to, sure, but would be ultimately meaningless, since my role decides my gender, rather than vice-versa. Basically, the "it would suck for people who identify as their biological gender to be given a non-biologically-appropriate role" argument is basically null and void because gender is meaningless under the Qun outside of role anyway.

Of course, I like I said, I doubt it really is as simple as that. Perhaps literal mutilation is involved to get your body "in line" with your gender? I wouldn't put it past the Qunari to do something like that. The point is that, whether deliberately or simply unconsciously, Bull seems to avoid mentioning the more unpleasant side of the whole truth when he talks about the Qun.

Similarly, because sex is considered a factor in determination of roles, I honestly doubt Aqun-Athlok are even really a thing the Qunari commonly handle or know how to deal with. Like you said, the Tamassrans decide everything, so if "women can't be soldiers", they're not going to raise biologically female children to handle "male" roles. Even when children naturally present talents, those talents will be pushed towards appropriate-gendered roles that they apply to. A female who shows a proclivity for fighting, for example, would be put in the Ben Hassrath rather than the Antaam. It's different, of course, with conquered individuals (like Krem, or better yet for this example, let's say Aveline) who have both talent and experience in an "inappropriate" field, and for whom re-education is less efficient than the reassignment of a potentially-meaningless binary value.

[Gervaise]

World of Thedas does say also that whilst most roles are gender specific, the odd, very rare exception is made.   So a male Qunari will farm, if they really consider they are best suited to that, just as a female Qunari will fight.   Presumably the Aqun-Athlok is what this entry is referring to but just doesn't use the word. 

 

If they are that rare it is likely Sten never encountered them, at least not at the time he met the Warden.   Bull may know more because after all he was in the secret police and so would get about more in different situations.

[Iakus]

World of Thedas does say also that whilst most roles are gender specific, the odd, very rare exception is made.   So a male Qunari will farm, if they really consider they are best suited to that, just as a female Qunari will fight.   Presumably the Aqun-Athlok is what this entry is referring to but just doesn't use the word. 

 

If they are that rare it is likely Sten never encountered them, at least not at the time he met the Warden.   Bull may know more because after all he was in the secret police and so would get about more in different situations.

The impression I got was that Qunari will perform roles that aren't gender specific in emergencies.  Like, a male Qunari will farm if there is a critical food shortage, or a female Qunari will serve in a military capacity if their village is being attacked.  That sort of thing.

 

I mean, I believe WOT also states that even if they serve in these roles, it is generally assumed that the male farmer will not be as good in the role as a female farmer, etc.

[Gervaise]

Well men and women do generally have a different physical make-up overall.    Krem was given the male body model so it is not that apparent.    Men generally are more muscular and I seem to recall have a different bone structure, so that would make them on the whole better suited to some physical activities than others.   On average men can carry more, run faster, jump higher.   Women can reduce these differences through training but they are still there.   Naturally a woman who is an elite athlete is going to be able to run faster than your average man but not a male elite athlete.    I think this is the reasoning behind the Qun's ordering of society. 

[TEWR]

I just want the option to walk up to a Tamassran and say "Give me the booty, show me the booty."

[TEWR]

I'm telling you guys, the qunari probably use "implements" for their sex therapy. Gender becomes irrelevant.

Fun fact: the vibrator (or rather, its shitty precursors) was originally invented to treat "hysteria" in the 19th century.

https://www.psycholo...story-vibrators

Well, bull does mention a strap-on.

 

Or at least, that's how I took his one line.

[vertigomez]

Yeah, I really don't get the confusion over Sten's line. The Lady Warden is a warrior; he witnesses it. But he doesn't understand how or why she thinks she's a woman when she's obviously a man.

He's not telling her to "get back in the kitchen" - he's asking why she thinks she's a she.

[TEWR]

Yeah. Basically Sten looks at the Wardens as an organization akin to an army. The army in Qunari lands is comprised of all men. Therefore, what he sees the Fem!Warden as is not someone that shouldn't fight, but someone that should not try and call themselves a woman since they're also a Warden -- which to his understanding, makes her a man.

 

I guess essentially she'd be seen by the Qunari at large as being trans. Aqun-athlok I suppose.

 

Sometimes, as much of a hipster as I find the Arishok to be, I think he was right by saying the Qun is a bit too complex to understand. I doubt even the devs properly understand it.

 

Hell, I doubt even the people who live in the Qunari lands understand it.

[General TSAR]

Seems to me like BioWare took an interesting lore element of the Qun in Dragon Age: Origins and screwed it up in the latter games.

 

Which to be fair is perfectly par for the course.

[TheJediSaint]

Given everything that I've seen about the Qun, the idea that gender is assigned based on what role you're supposed to fill makes perfect sense to me.

I can image a number of Qunari going Tal-Vashoth because the don't agree with the gender the Qun assigned them.

[Lazarillo]

I can image a number of Qunari going Tal-Vashoth because the don't agree with the gender the Qun assigned them.

But again, what does it MATTER what "gender" is assigned, when gender only matters in terms of what role you get anyway?
You might as well just say "going Tal-Vashoth because the don't agree with the role the Qun assigned them" because that's apparently all that gender means.

[fhs33721]

Seems to me like BioWare took an interesting lore element of the Qun in Dragon Age: Origins and screwed it up in the latter games.

• Interesting lore element
• Straight forward "Women can't be warriors. Why are you not in the kitchen? Hurr Durr"

Choose one.

 

It's actually more interesting now, since instead of being a classic medieval sexist society the Qun is now a completely alien (and horrible) society where people have so little freedom that if you're unlucky it might even force you to change your Gender against your will.

[vertigomez]

But again, what does it MATTER what "gender" is assigned, when gender only matters in terms of what role you get anyway?You might as well just say "going Tal-Vashoth because the don't agree with the role the Qun assigned them" because that's apparently all that gender means.

Because the idea here is that, GENERALLY, your secondary sex characteristics make you better suited for certain roles (wider shoulders, greater muscle mass), but if you're a woman but display, say, great martial ability and a warrior's order-following mind, then obviously there's been a mistake and you're a man, not a woman.

Aqun-athlok aren't especially common. They still think dudes generally make better soldiers... but if you have a vagina and breasts and you're REALLY good at marching and hitting stuff then the Tamassrans clearly made a mistake assigning you as a woman just because you have those physical characteristics. You are actually a dude, because you're a great soldier.

[Lazarillo]

Because the idea here is that, GENERALLY, your secondary sex characteristics make you better suited for certain roles (wider shoulders, greater muscle mass), but if you're a woman but display, say, great martial ability and a warrior's order-following mind, then obviously there's been a mistake and you're a man, not a woman.

That's not what I'm asking.
If the Qun says:
"You are a man, therefore you are a soldier."
but it also says:
"You are a soldier, therefore you are a man."
And the only point to being a man is to say "you are best suited to being a soldier", then once it's decided "you are a soldier", what does it even matter what gender they call you? The only reason your gender even mattered in the first place has been superseded.

Maybe I'm just more laid back, but if what I'm called isn't going to change my life from what it already is, I don't really see the difference between being called a "man" or a "woman" or, for that matter, a "snoorp".

[Iakus]

Given everything that I've seen about the Qun, the idea that gender is assigned based on what role you're supposed to fill makes perfect sense to me.

I can image a number of Qunari going Tal-Vashoth because the don't agree with the gender the Qun assigned them.

I can see it as part of the horror of the Qun.

 

You literally have no identity outside of what is given you by others.

[Iakus]

Yeah. Basically Sten looks at the Wardens as an organization akin to an army. The army in Qunari lands is comprised of all men. Therefore, what he sees the Fem!Warden as is not someone that shouldn't fight, but someone that should not try and call themselves a woman since they're also a Warden -- which to his understanding, makes her a man.

 

Just to point out, Sten has similar banter with Morrigan, Wynne, and Leliana