204 réponses à ce sujet

[vertigomez]

That's not what I'm asking.If the Qun says:"You are a man, therefore you are a soldier."but it also says:"You are a soldier, therefore you are a man."And the only point to being a man is to say "you are best suited to being a soldier", then once it's decided "you are a soldier", what does it even matter what gender they call you? The only reason your gender even mattered in the first place has been superseded.Maybe I'm just more laid back, but if what I'm called isn't going to change my life from what it already is, I don't really see the difference between being called a "man" or a "woman" or, for that matter, a "snoorp".

Because circular reasoning. It's why the Arishok insists he didn't lose any Qunari in Kirkwall - they went Tal-Vashoth. But by our reasoning, they HAD to be Qunari first in order for them to rebel and become Tal-Vashoth. But according to the insane troll logic of the Qun a Qunari can NEVER be Tal-Vashoth, therefore the Arishok lost no Qunari, rinse and repeat.

[Lazarillo]

Because circular reasoning. It's why the Arishok insists he didn't lose any Qunari in Kirkwall - they went Tal-Vashoth. But by our reasoning, they HAD to be Qunari first in order for them to rebel and become Tal-Vashoth. But according to the insane troll logic of the Qun a Qunari can NEVER be Tal-Vashoth, therefore the Arishok lost no Qunari, rinse and repeat.

I appreciate you being patient with me and trying to help, but it's still not really answering my question. I'm not asking "what does it matter to the Qun?", I mean "what does it matter to the individual?"

[vertigomez]

I appreciate you being patient with me and trying to help, but it's still not really answering my question. I'm not asking "what does it matter to the Qun?", I mean "what does it matter to the individual?"

Sorry. I really am trying to explain, but I'm not particularly good at it. At an individual level it wouldn't matter at all, just like with anything else under the Qun - you are what they say you are. Is that what you meant, or did I miss it again?

[dawnstone]

I appreciate you being patient with me and trying to help, but it's still not really answering my question. I'm not asking "what does it matter to the Qun?", I mean "what does it matter to the individual?"

Forgive me if I'm not entirely getting the context, but the Qun does not consider the individual at all.

 

Everyone in the Qun, is the Qun, if I understand it correctly.

[thats1evildude]

But again, what does it MATTER what "gender" is assigned, when gender only matters in terms of what role you get anyway?

 

Well, I imagine being misgendered constantly would get tiresome.

[Lazarillo]

Sorry. I really am trying to explain, but I'm not particularly good at it. At an individual level it wouldn't matter at all, just like with anything else under the Qun - you are what they say you are. Is that what you meant, or did I miss it again?

No, I think this all comes back to it. My original point is that people probably aren't going to choose to rebel for being "the wrong" gender, because to the individual, their gender doesn't really matter. They'll instead rebel simply because they have been forced into a role they can't bear having. Either that, or (also possible) there's some sort of horrifying "truth" to Qunari gender roles that we don't yet know about, because otherwise, Gaider's comments that people who aren't in Krem's somewhat unique special circumstances would have a much rougher time being named Aqun-Athlok don't seem to make much sense.

[Lazarillo]

Well, I imagine being misgendered constantly would get tiresome.

Honestly, I think speaking Qunlat would be a lot harder to get used to than being called by the "wrong" pronoun.

[thats1evildude]

What do you mean? If you're qunari, you would grow up learning Qunlat.

[Lazarillo]

What do you mean? If you're qunari, you would grow up learning Qunlat.

Well, if I actually was Qunari, then there would be no such thing as "misgendered".

[thats1evildude]

And that's qunari logic in a nutshell.

[raging_monkey]

It would help if we had a qunlat language book like what star trek did

[Nocte ad Mortem]

No, I think this all comes back to it. My original point is that people probably aren't going to choose to rebel for being "the wrong" gender, because to the individual, their gender doesn't really matter. They'll instead rebel simply because they have been forced into a role they can't bear having. Either that, or (also possible) there's some sort of horrifying "truth" to Qunari gender roles that we don't yet know about, because otherwise, Gaider's comments that people who aren't in Krem's somewhat unique special circumstances would have a much rougher time being named Aqun-Athlok don't seem to make much sense.

I believe his comments more implied that not everyone that would want to be considered Aqun-Athlok would be accepted as such. The Tamassran may have some pretty steep qualifications before they actually qualify someone this way. So, I think what he means in those posts was that people shouldn't think their qualifications are the same as we assume based on our own culture, that identifying as Aqun-Athlok is as simple as stating that you're such, having that accepted and your role changed accordingly. For example, you said as an educator they would simply start calling you female. Well, maybe not. Your current job may not be enough for their standards. They might evaluate you and decide you're still "too male" to be Aqun-Athlok, and you'd be reassigned to something else, even if you said you'd rather just be Aqun-Athlok. 

 

But I also think there doesn't need to be some "horrifying truth" behind it to make sense, or even that it would necessarily fit the Qun for there to be. It's easy for us to be terrified by the Qun, but you should keep in mind that the point isn't to be terrifying. The Qun wasn't designed to make people unhappy, as a general. Not everything in it has to be gruesome and disturbing. If everything was, then nobody would stay. Many people stay in the Qun and it's not incredibly uncommon for some to convert willingly. You're saying it doesn't seem scary enough because it wouldn't push people to leave, but it's not meant to do that. 

 

I think we have a tendency to dehumanize the Qunari even farther than is represented, because their belief system clashes so hard with ours. I don't agree with it at all, don't get me wrong. They're not without emotions, though, and they don't want people to be unhappy. They believe everyone has a duty to each other and they try to find a way to force people into filling those roles, but the point of those roles is to best support the group as a whole, not to punish their members. Their belief system is inherently unselfish and it's built on rationalizing the most "fair" system for all parties, as far as the belief's creator saw it. They don't want to punish people for being of the "wrong" gender, they just want a system that corrects the issue and allows this person to be as productive as they can be. I think what people believe about the Qunari is that the re-education and the measures they take are more of a righteous form of punishment for disobedience, like more authoritarian/ puritanical religions in our history have done, but it's not about that. It's just about getting the person to accept their role. The qamek is designed for the Qunari to make minds malleable. They consider what they're doing "fixing", not "punishing". 

 

In this vein, Mary Kirby said about children conceived out of the breeding programs that they'd be raised and assigned just like any other. If the Qunari were a society that laid down the punishment with an iron fist or couldn't accept flexibility in their rules to any extent, they'd probably kill the baby and maybe the parents, or maybe they'd sterilize the parents. The Qunari would raise the child without prejudice to having been born outside their system and attempt to re-educate the parents to keep them from breaking the rules again. Is that rightfully something we should still see as monstrous? I would say yes and I'm sure many would leave over that. It's basically the difference between accepting some people should live as the opposite gender because they fit that role better or only allowing them to if they accept mutilation, though.

 

The Qunari isn't about senseless acts of violent punishment, they're about clean efficiency towards what they actually believe is a Utopian society. Mutilating an Aqun-Athlok wouldn't make them more productive, so there isn't really any point. I really doubt they have a procedure that could actually make the person fully capable of reproducing as the opposite sex, so nothing would be gained but suffering, and nothing we see from the Qun suggests they're interested in that. "They look more like what we think they should", doesn't sound like a Qunari sentiment. They're about function. They want people to fill their intended roles and they apply pressure when people won't do that. It's not about the punishment, it's about the results. So, I don't see any reason why the Aqun-Athlok need to be more complicated than we think. I think the problem is that you're imagining it has to be a more shocking and unpleasant experience than it really is. Probably it's rare that the Tamassran decide an individual is Aqun-Athlok, but I don't see anything in Qun logic that would suggest drastic physical measures have to be taken when it's decided. If the individual is happy identifying with their new gender identity and filling their role, then that's great. That's what the Qunari want. They want you to be satisfied with your role. If you aren't happy, regardless in which direction you feel your identity is being ignored, that's when it becomes a problem. 

[In Exile]

I admit you make a fair point. The thing for me is, the qunari have aways been presented as an very anti-individualistic society that is very practical and very literal. So I simply see the qunari - as they were presented in DAO and DA2 - not caring at all about Krem personal views. I believe that if someone like Krem was introduced to the qunari, all they would care is that Krem is biologically a woman, and would need to work on their society as one, be it as a farmer, priest, artisan, etc. And if Krem were to protest about gender, the qunari would just see it as a simple delusion, sending them to a education facility untill their views were "fixed".

But it's still anti-individualistic. The point is that the Qun doesn't give a dig about your gender identity. It might decide that Krem is a man because Krem's role is to be a Sten. But it might also decide Cassandra is a man because her role is also a Sten. That's a far more oppressive attitude towards gender identity that even in Tevinter.

And you're completely wrong. Sten doesn't challenge that the female Warden is a warrior. He challenges that she is a woman!

[In Exile]

That's not what I'm asking.
If the Qun says:
"You are a man, therefore you are a soldier."
but it also says:
"You are a soldier, therefore you are a man."
And the only point to being a man is to say "you are best suited to being a soldier", then once it's decided "you are a soldier", what does it even matter what gender they call you? The only reason your gender even mattered in the first place has been superseded.

Maybe I'm just more laid back, but if what I'm called isn't going to change my life from what it already is, I don't really see the difference between being called a "man" or a "woman" or, for that matter, a "snoorp".

It's nonsense. Of course it's nonsense. The Qun is circular nonsense! That's the point - it's all insane troll logic. It doesn't make any sense.

[In Exile]

No, I think this all comes back to it. My original point is that people probably aren't going to choose to rebel for being "the wrong" gender, because to the individual, their gender doesn't really matter. They'll instead rebel simply because they have been forced into a role they can't bear having. Either that, or (also possible) there's some sort of horrifying "truth" to Qunari gender roles that we don't yet know about, because otherwise, Gaider's comments that people who aren't in Krem's somewhat unique special circumstances would have a much rougher time being named Aqun-Athlok don't seem to make much sense.

What your forgetting is that the Qun is nonsense. Yes, it pretends that there are no individuals and that the Iron Bull is like a white blood cell, an unthinking instrument. But that's not actually true. He's a thinking being. And being forced to adherent to something that is contrary to your nature - and we don't know how and whether the Qunari have a concept of themselves - might be just awful.

[Lazarillo]

I'mma snip a few bits here. Assume anything I don't respond to directly is responded to with "Yep, I hear ya! Brofist!"

I believe his comments more implied that not everyone that would want to be considered Aqun-Athlok would be accepted as such. The Tamassran may have some pretty steep qualifications before they actually qualify someone this way. So, I think what he means in those posts was that people shouldn't think their qualifications are the same as we assume based on our own culture, that identifying as Aqun-Athlok is as simple as stating that you're such, having that accepted and your role changed accordingly. For example, you said as an educator they would simply start calling you female. Well, maybe not. Your current job may not be enough for their standards. They might evaluate you and decide you're still "too male" to be Aqun-Athlok, and you'd be reassigned to something else, even if you said you'd rather just be Aqun-Athlok.

I guess it's just a matter of disagreeing about interpretation then. To me, his comments sounded like he was saying Aqun-Athlok sounds nice because of the context it's presented, where Krem wants to be acknowledged as a man, and would have a role within the Qun that would get him that acknowledgment, but the implications would be worse for someone like Aveline, who might have the same role, but does not consider herself a man.

As for my personal example, yeah, I didn't mean to go "yeah, I'd be X", more "if they made me X, I don't see what the big deal would be with me being called 'a woman' is supposed to be." That's in part why I expect Aqun-Athlok are exceedingly rare within the Qun. Someone's talents can almost always be re-directed to a gender-appropriate role.
 

But I also think there doesn't need to be some "horrifying truth" behind it to make sense, or even that it would necessarily fit the Qun for there to be. It's easy for us to be terrified by the Qun, but you should keep in mind that the point isn't to be terrifying. The Qun wasn't designed to make people unhappy, as a general. Not everything in it has to be gruesome and disturbing. If everything was, then nobody would stay. Many people stay in the Qun and it's not incredibly uncommon for some to convert willingly. You're saying it doesn't seem scary enough because it wouldn't push people to leave, but it's not meant to do that.

What I mean is actually kind of the contrary. TheJediSaint was saying that Qunari would go Tal-Vashoth because they are treated as a different gender than what they are biologically. My point was that unless there is something we don't know about gender roles, I don't see how a simple change of pronouns (since that's literally all gender means to a Qunari, once their role is assigned) is enough to make them defect. They might defect because they're forced to fight when they want to...bake cakes, or something. I agree that they probably don't actually mutilate or anything like that, but as mentioned, I feel like Gaider's comments don't quite make sense unless there's something Bull left out of his description, and since Bull has a tendency to leave inconvenient things out, I'm more inclined to believe that's the explanation. As to whether it's actually as terrible as what they do to Mages, though...probably not. Probably not.

[Lazarillo]

What your forgetting is that the Qun is nonsense. Yes, it pretends that there are no individuals and that the Iron Bull is like a white blood cell, an unthinking instrument. But that's not actually true. He's a thinking being. And being forced to adherent to something that is contrary to your nature - and we don't know how and whether the Qunari have a concept of themselves - might be just awful.

I just don't see how being called "she" instead of "he" (or vice versa) is being forced to act in a way that is contrary to your nature when the words themselves have no meaning. Heck, does Qunlat even have gendered pronouns, or pronouns at all?

[nightscrawl]

I guess it's just a matter of disagreeing about interpretation then. To me, his comments sounded like he was saying Aqun-Athlok sounds nice because of the context it's presented, where Krem wants to be acknowledged as a man, and would have a role within the Qun that would get him that acknowledgment, but the implications would be worse for someone like Aveline, who might have the same role, but does not consider herself a man.

I've always taken Bull's remarks as him placing Krem's trans status within the framework of what he knows and is familiar with.

Actually, it seems to me like the response from an Inquisitor that doesn't "get it" (that is, what being trans is) might be to mention that Krem isn't a part of the Qun, and neither is the Inquisition. I think it might be even more confusing for an outsider to grasp because the rest of Thedas is not so rigid about gender roles. The Inquisitor might think of Cassandra, who identifies as a woman, and then try to reconcile that with what Bull says, leading to more confusion. The game doesn't present it as Krem feeling like he "was born in the wrong body" (that I can recall), and I do think that particular phrasing is probably the most helpful in understanding the mentality of a trans person.

 

It's all very nice for Bull to say that, but it doesn't really fit the current situation other than as a way to show support for his bro.

 

In the end, I think Bull's dialogue just brings more confusion.

 

I think you're right, though. Bull does present it as no big deal. Krem identifies as a man, and there would be a place for him in the Qun. David Gaider's remarks are all well and good, but the player can't rely on those; they can only rely on what is presented in the game itself.

[nightscrawl]

Just to add a singular point, they likely do still consider the biological sex of the individual because the Tamassrans also control mating. If they consider that it's time for which ever person, who also happens to be trans and classified as aqun-athlok in Qunari society, then that person shows up and is paired off with a heterosexual partner to match their biological sex.

[Dai Grepher]

He literally says in the thread "when we talked about..". It's obvious that he was a part of this decision.

So what? He has been wrong about other things in the lore and he has corrected himself when fans point it out to him. It just so happens he didn't bother to correct himself after I proved him wrong, either because he didn't read the post or because he didn't want to reply.

He was still acting as lead writer during the main game DA:I development period. It's absurd to think he doesn't know the truth about this and you do.

Why? If he says Anora's mother's name is something other than Celia, would he be right in saying so? No. He would be wrong, and in fact he was wrong. When someone pointed it out by posting a video of Loghain talking about his wife, Gaider admitted that he didn't realize that line was in the game and apologized for the mistake.

The problem here is that he knows perfectly well what the team intended to write back in Origins, and with Inquisition they were trying to sugarcoat the Qun in order to pander to a politically correct minority in the real world. So of course he isn't going to admit he was wrong about Sten and the Qun as portrayed in Origins, he had an agenda during Inquisition's release.

You can keep thinking what you want, but I'm not going to continue this conversation with you when there's clear confirmation that you're incorrect.

So you are rejecting open discussion then. Any comment I make to the contrary will automatically be in opposition to Gaider, and thus according to you, invalid. You can refuse this debate though. You are free to keep being wrong if you want to, just as Gaider is.

The canon game proves Gaider is incorrect. The writer's opinion is not fact when that opinion directly contradicts the game. He may as well have posted that the Qunari worship Andraste.

Well, it's not really contradictory. It just means that Sten can't grasp how the Warden can be a fighter and also present themselves as a woman.

Except that he does. He will refer to a female Warden as both a warrior and a female if you recover his sword and choose the appropriate dialogue options. Also, the point is that his initial confusion is due to the fact that the Qunari culture teaches that biological females cannot be warriors.

What Gaider says is that Sten doesn't agree with the Warden presenting and identifying as a woman and still acting as a warrior, so it's a different situation, though.

And he's wrong, as proven by Sten's own words recognizing the female Warden as female. Sten also says it makes no sense for women to wish to be men, and that living on the moon is as attainable. Another fact Gaider ignored.

There isn't an option to identify as male while choosing a female base, so it's not like they could make that dialog relevant.

Especially since it would lead nowhere. At the time, the writers wanted to convey the point that the Qunari believe females cannot be warriors. There was never any concept that the Qunari considered female warriors to be men.

Although, he does also say that they had, in fact, not planned for the aqun-athlok back then, so there is that.

Which ought to tell you something.

Personally, I don't think it contradicts, but how you feel about the addition is subjective. As a general, I'm not that invested either way.

Sten stated that women cannot become men. Hissrad stated that some women are real men.

Those are two contradicting beliefs.

Basically, what he's saying is that the Qunari assign you to what gender role you fit, not what your biology suggests and definitely not just what you want to be.

Yes, we understand what the individual wants is of no consequence. But to suggest that biological sex plays no role is ridiculous and contrary to what Sten said in Origins. In order for a female to be assigned a male gender role at all, the Tamassran would first have to put that female through tests and activities in which males excel. Why would the Tamassran do that if the individual looks like a woman? That is completely counter to the concept of gender roles to begin with, and it goes against the Qunari's stated goal of efficiency.

What a lot of people are missing is that the existence of the aqun-athlok doesn't necessarily mean they just respect your decision to change your gender and live as that role if they don't personally think it fits.

I don't think anyone here thinks any individual under the Qun can simply declare to be the opposite sex. The issue is what the Qunari think as a culture, and how the Tamassran's rationalize it in accordance with the Qun.

The point is, a man might be phenomenal at embroidery, but the Tamassrans will dismiss this on the simple fact that only women can craft embroidery. The man's skill will make no difference. His physical gender defines his destiny as a field medic stitching up his wounded comrades on the battlefield.

[Dai Grepher]

It's not necessarily the same as the trans movement in real life, which is how a lot of people are reading it. Your gender role is their decision, not yours.

No, the gender role is decided by physical reality. The physical male will have a man's role. Now let's find out which male role that will be, is what the Tamassrans would say.

Sten makes the point that we are born as we are. Whether the person is clever or foolish, the size of his hands, he does not choose any of these things, he simply is.

This isn't saying they care more about your personal identity than other societies. It's basically saying they care even less, as usual.

Not according to them. They claim to be finding your true purpose. Well what good are their gender roles if someone of a clear gender can be placed in roles opposite of that gender? If that is the case then gender roles are nothing but an obstacle to finding true purpose, not a facilitator of it (as Sten believes).

Gaider suggests in the thread that Sten has already come to the conclusion that she is presenting as a woman when they have that conversation.

Yeah and at the same time he forgets why. Sten clearly determines this fact based on what? "You look like a woman." Appearance. Physical appearance. Biological sex.

The female Warden in DA:O identifies and presents as a woman. Sten notices she does. He also notices she acts as a warrior. So, his objection is that she can't do both of those things. He's not a Tamassran, remember, so it's not exactly his job to decide which one is right, but he knows enough about their culture to be sure it can't be both.

Correct, but his conclusion is that she cannot be a warrior, not that she can't be a woman.

As I understand it Krem is not presenting as a woman trying to do a man's job but a man doing a man's job. In the Qun the Tamassrans would probably pick up on the fact that the young person was seemingly thinking and acting like a man and if challenged might well say "I am a man". More assessment would have them agree that clearly the person was best suited to male roles. It is not contradicting their thinking on gender roles because they all agree that the person is a man doing a man's job regardless of their genitals.

Which means the Tamassran would have to put the girl through male activities to begin with, which defeats the purpose of gender roles. If a sex can be put through roles of the opposite sex, and the person of that sex can prove adept in those roles, then there is no reason to have gender roles.

What they would object to is a woman behaving as a woman, identifying as a woman and yet wanting to do a specifically male role. At least I think that is how it works.

Who cares how the individual behaves and identifies? Being a warrior would mean behaving as a male by default in this case, would it not? So why have a problem with it if the individual is fulfilling the role? It simply wouldn't matter.

The problem the Qunari have in this case is that a female body is posing as a man in a role her actual gender cannot properly fulfill. She makes the society weak by denying her true purpose, and puts the society at risk by pretending to be something she is not, a man.

World of Thedas does say also that whilst most roles are gender specific, the odd, very rare exception is made. So a male Qunari will farm, if they really consider they are best suited to that, just as a female Qunari will fight. Presumably the Aqun-Athlok is what this entry is referring to but just doesn't use the word.

World of Thedas is wrong.

In conversation Sten can refer to a farmer as male. Realistically, it wouldn't make sense for females to be farmers since it is a physically demanding job. But females could be gardeners or milkmaids, or tend to livestock, which might be included in the term for farmer. Same as how males can be in the priesthood but only in certain positions.

If they are that rare it is likely Sten never encountered them, at least not at the time he met the Warden. Bull may know more because after all he was in the secret police and so would get about more in different situations.

Sten knows more about the Qun than Hissrad.

Yeah, I really don't get the confusion over Sten's line. The Lady Warden is a warrior; he witnesses it. But he doesn't understand how or why she thinks she's a woman when she's obviously a man.

He's not telling her to "get back in the kitchen" - he's asking why she thinks she's a she.

Wrong. He was making the point to her that if she fights it follows that she cannot be a woman. The fact that she IS a woman automatically means she can't be a warrior. That is the point Sten was making. He goes on to say women are priests, artisans, or merchants, they do not fight. He was telling her to get back in the kitchen.

Also, he does in fact recognize her as a female. He refers to her as such.

[Dai Grepher]

But it's still anti-individualistic. The point is that the Qun doesn't give a dig about your gender identity. It might decide that Krem is a man because Krem's role is to be a Sten. But it might also decide Cassandra is a man because her role is also a Sten. That's a far more oppressive attitude towards gender identity that even in Tevinter.

And how would the Tamassran determine that unless she put each of them through tests for those who will be placed in male gender roles? The fact is that the Tamassran will not bother checking them for the qualities of a Sten because she will see them both as female based on biology. Krem would be reeducated to identify as female, and Cassandra would be prohibited from being a warrior.

And you're completely wrong. Sten doesn't challenge that the female Warden is a warrior. He challenges that she is a woman!

Wrong. He recognizes her as a woman. His point is that women do not fight as warriors.

What your forgetting is that the Qun is nonsense.

We all know it's nonsense, but if the Qunari really thought the way you claim, then it would be nonsense according to THEM as well. They would be setting up arbitrary and counterproductive gender roles and then blatantly ignoring them in certain cases. Even the Qunari would see that as either the gender roles being nonsense, or their occasional disregard of them as nonsense. This is a race that claims to be enlightened. So how can they be enlightened if they don't even follow their own rules?

And being forced to adherent to something that is contrary to your nature - and we don't know how and whether the Qunari have a concept of themselves - might be just awful.

The Qunari see your nature as what you were born as. Biological sex is something you are born with. It is part of what you are. The Qunari would not ignore this fact just because you show capability in talents assigned to the opposite sex.

Just to add a singular point, they likely do still consider the biological sex of the individual because the Tamassrans also control mating. If they consider that it's time for which ever person, who also happens to be trans and classified as aqun-athlok in Qunari society, then that person shows up and is paired off with a heterosexual partner to match their biological sex.

Then the gender role isn't recognized for that act, and thus the classification is meaningless. So do they send the pregnant "man" back to Seheron to give birth on the battlefield, or what?

[Daerog]

The Qunari seem to run on the True Scotsman Fallacy. Making a claim, someone points out an exception, they fix it so there is no exception by either reeducating or reassigning, which ever is deemed better.

[TEWR]

 

 

Correct, but his conclusion is that she cannot be a warrior, not that she can't be a woman.

 

Incorrect. He says flat out "You are a Grey Warden, so it follows that you cannot be a woman"

 

[Dai Grepher]

Yeah, but that is just how he phrases his "logical" argument against the idea that she can be a warrior. It was just a style of debate. He's trying to get her to embrace her womanhood and drop the notion that she could ever possibly be a warrior.