204 réponses à ce sujet

[raging_monkey]

Or it could be new into on a alien culture

[Qun00]

As I understand it, sex is available for all, men and women regardless.

This is what makes me think the Qun is evil. Jobs are chosen at twelve. What tamassran looks like some little boy and thinks "Yeah, for his life, he's going to lay back and take it from other dudes all his life."

The least messed up criteria I can think of is "she is a helpful person and often notices what people need".

But that also works for a future Ben-Hassrath, so... ehh. The Qun still is crazy.

[Dai Grepher]

Or it could be new into on a alien culture

Except the new info contradicts the old.

[raging_monkey]

How sten openly state's his knowledge isn't all there and most interactions have been with military not qausi-religious units so yes new information. Not everything is straightforward with the oxmen I'm not saying its retconnin at worse explaining in more detail

[DreamerM]

Except the new info contradicts the old.

Not really.

I'm not sure how many more times it needs to be explained: if your Warden presents as a woman, Sten objects that women don't fight.

 

Krem is not a woman. He's a transexual man. Bull gets this, because the Qun ... as much as it's scary-AF ... is ahead of our real-world human culture in terms of acknowledging that transexuals are not misguided or delusional or just atypical members of their biological gender. They are what they claim to be. The Tamassrans know this, they recognize it in their charges, and they take it into account when choosing roles for all the little Qun-lings.

 

Their job is to find the right job for each child. They have nothing to gain from sending all their trans people to re-conditioning just for being trans. That's not the proper use of their resources.

[Qun00]

Not really.

I'm not sure how many more times it needs to be explained: if your Warden presents as a woman, Sten objects that women don't fight.

Krem is not a woman. He's a transexual man. Bull gets this, because the Qun ... as much as it's scary-AF ... is ahead of our real-world human culture in terms of acknowledging that transexuals are not misguided or delusional or just atypical members of their biological gender. They are what they claim to be. The Tamassrans know this, they recognize it in their charges, and they take it into account when choosing roles for all the little Qun-lings.

Their job is to find the right job for each child. They have nothing to gain from sending all their trans people to re-conditioning just for being trans. That's not the proper use of their resources.

Not at all. The Qunari don't get to decide their own gender on a whim.

Let's say that Krem is an artisan and not a warrior. Then she would be recognized as a woman under the Qun.

[Dai Grepher]

How sten openly state's his knowledge isn't all there and most interactions have been with military not qausi-religious units so yes new information.

He may be military, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a thorough understanding of the Qun and Qunari beliefs. He believes deeply in the Qun. Hissrad does not. I believe the Arishok over Hissrad.

Not everything is straightforward with the oxmen I'm not saying its retconnin at worse explaining in more detail

Some things are straightforward. This is one of those things.

I'm not sure how many more times it needs to be explained: if your Warden presents as a woman, Sten objects that women don't fight.

His objection is that you fight, not that you are a woman or present as one. Sten also clearly states that women cannot be men. That is the part you and others on your side are missing here.

Krem is not a woman. He's a transexual man. Bull gets this, because the Qun ... as much as it's scary-AF ... is ahead of our real-world human culture in terms of acknowledging that transexuals are not misguided or delusional or just atypical members of their biological gender.

Well this is another problem BioWare is causing. The Qun isn't supposed to be looked at as "ahead of" anything, except perhaps regarding technology, but even this is because of an oppressive labor force. The Qun is supposed to be offensive to individual liberty. It is supposed to be seen as a terrible injustice. Sugar-coating the Qun in the name of real world acceptance of transgenders is a mistake on BioWare's part. It illustrates a problem in the gaming community in which content is censored in the name of social justice, or a popular political narrative. Games should be about free expression.

Another problem is that BioWare's actions are actually self-defeating. They are going to have the Qunari embrace the idea of transgenderism, yet they will also portray them as intolerant and totalitarian toward the people of Thedas? Do they really mean to associate the two things? Seems to me they would make a stronger point by having the Qun enforce strict gender roles (as was stated in Origins) regardless of how the individual felt about the job or about him or her self. As Hissrad portrays it now, the Qun allows people to identify as the gender they think they are, and yet the Qun is an evil that the people of Thedas will be fighting against in the future.

They are what they claim to be. The Tamassrans know this, they recognize it in their charges, and they take it into account when choosing roles for all the little Qun-lings.

"They are what they claim to be" does not apply to any other aspect of the Qunari way of life, so why would it apply in the case of gender? No, they are what the Qun says they are. When a child is born, the child is raised by caregivers within the Ariqun. Generally speaking, female Tamassrans will oversee the education of all children. However, male Tamassrans are used for certain things pertaining to male children, perhaps regarding certain matters of hygiene or aggression. So when the child becomes older, he or she is placed with an instructor based on their gender. Girls stay with women instructors, boys are sent to men to be instructed in certain things. So how does a Tamassran know to send a male child to a male instructor if not based on their physical sex? The girls will be sent to the female Tamassran, and the boys will be sent to the male Tamassran for certain educational functions. Sending a girl to a male Tamassran would make no sense. Each child would be raised according to their physical sex. You look like a girl, you do girl things. You look like a boy, you do boy things. These children would do as they were told. There would be no, "But I'm not the gender you say I am".

Their job is to find the right job for each child. They have nothing to gain from sending all their trans people to re-conditioning just for being trans. That's not the proper use of their resources.

All their trans people, as if they are a high percentage to begin with. So then tell me, what's the point of having gender roles then? Why is the Arishok branch male-only? Why is the Arigena female-only? And if there really are such things as "those born one gender but who live like another", then wouldn't these people end up in those branches? Wouldn't there be a biological female in the Antaam? Wouldn't there be a biological male in the Arigena branch? Wouldn't there be multiple cases of this?

So then what's the point of calling those things male-only or female-only? Don't you see that sending some males to craft fabrics, or some females to chuck spears at Vints only defeats the entire point of having gender based branches within the Qun?

[DreamerM]

Not at all. The Qunari don't get to decide their own gender on a whim.

 

I promise you, no one "decides" their gender AT ALL, let alone on a whim. All the brainwashing in the world won't make a trans person not trans. It would be a waste, and the Qun wastes nothing.

[Xilizhra]

If it were true that sex workers existed, then I would think that any 12 year old chosen for that role would first be trained in medical science until an adult, and then that sex worker would be paired with patients of the opposite sex, not the same sex.

People here seem to be piling one misconception on top of another. They think sex workers are actually real under the Qun, and they think homosexuality is tolerated under the Qun. Says who?

The way I see it, the Qun would reeducate anyone displaying homosexual behavior because they would see it as a violation of their gender role.

I do not understand, you look like a woman. Therefore it follows that you cannot mate with a woman. Why would you wish to be a man? That makes no sense. You cannot mate with another woman because you cannot be a man. That can only lead to frustration.

Seriously people, ignore what Hissrad told you. He was lying. Sten had it right from the beginning.

Much like how templars don't really need lyrium for their powers, because Alistair was right all along and nothing can ever contradict DAO camp conversations.

 

So then what's the point of calling those things male-only or female-only? Don't you see that sending some males to craft fabrics, or some females to chuck spears at Vints only defeats the entire point of having gender based branches within the Qun?

To be honest, strict gender roles never made sense for the Qun anyway. I think that they were only included because Bioware's initial concept of them was "militant Islamic Borg" (I have a certain suspicion that this is why the qunari were initially brown as well, only to later become gray in later games).

[Patchwork]

The best way to make it work seems to be children get treated as generless and the qunlet has a lot of neutral pronouns. The tamassran raise them without expectations, everyone goes to the same lessons, dresses the same way, there's no girl/boy divide even for the dormitories and they continually assess the natural inclinations of the child. Trying to override a core part of personality like gender because someone has shown they have a real flair for baking bread is counterproductive. Gender is part of your role and that is the only definition that matters to the Qun so until you actually have a role you are neither male nor female.   

 

And I doubt it's decided that you'll be a sex worker on the same day as they decide you'll be a priest. Specialisation probably happens much later in the training.   

[Qun00]

I promise you, no one "decides" their gender AT ALL, let alone on a whim. All the brainwashing in the world won't make a trans person not trans. It would be a waste, and the Qun wastes nothing.

The Qun also doesn't allow any form of individuality.

[Xilizhra]

The Qun also doesn't allow any form of individuality.

Not really true, otherwise they'd forbid things like nicknames. The Qun isn't really about minimizing individuality so much as it is about maximizing utility.

[Steelcan]

Not really true, otherwise they'd forbid things like nicknames. The Qun isn't really about minimizing individuality so much as it is about maximizing utility.

I don't think the two are mutually exclusive in the eyes of the Qunari.  A nickname is a harmless display of individuality that doesn't impair their ability to fulfill their role.  Other forms of individuality that would impair their ability to carry out their role would be more than just frowned upon.

[vertigomez]

This is what makes me think the Qun is evil. Jobs are chosen at twelve. What tamassran looks like some little boy and thinks "Yeah, for his life, he's going to lay back and take it from other dudes all his life."

It's not worse than how Flemeth treated Morrigan.

"No little girl wants to hear about the Wilder men her mother took to her bed, using them till they were spent, then killing them. No little girl wants to be told that this is also expected of her, once she comes of age."

[nightscrawl]

Not at all. The Qunari don't get to decide their own gender on a whim.

Let's say that Krem is an artisan and not a warrior. Then she would be recognized as a woman under the Qun.

I promise you, no one "decides" their gender AT ALL, let alone on a whim. All the brainwashing in the world won't make a trans person not trans. It would be a waste, and the Qun wastes nothing.

 
I think you two are talking about two different things. There is the Qun version of gender and the rest of the world's (Thedas and our real world) version of gender. The problem is that a person under the Qun can not live as they choose, according to their gender identity. If it happens to align, as with Krem, then great for him, but that may not be the case for all such people.

 

Let's continue to use Krem in the role of artisan, not warrior. In Qunari society, artisan is a woman's role, and we know that people don't choose their roles. Perhaps Krem, from a young age, was observed to be good at working with his hands, showed early creativity, and so on. To put such a person in the role of a soldier would be a waste, and the Qunari waste nothing.
 
I think what we have here is a sort of chicken-egg scenario. What comes first in this case, the gender or the role? David Gaider's responses make it seem like the role is paramount. If Krem was placed into the role of artisan, then Krem would be a woman because that is a woman's role, regardless of his personal gender identity. It just so happens that Krem's actual chosen life role, that of soldier, fits in with his gender identity under the Qun.

 

It does suggest the question: would Bull have a different response if Krem was not trans, was in fact, a warrior woman as Cassandra? We don't really know. Casandra asked him in one banter and he evaded with humor.

 

Cassandra: I am surprised you accept fighting at a woman's side, Bull. I understood Qunari women didn't fight.
Iron Bull: If a Qunari woman really wants to fight and has a gift for it, she becomes an Aqun-athlok. The Aqun-athlok joins the warriors and is treated like a male. He becomes a guy, for all intents and purposes.
Cassandra: But she wouldn't physically become male, surely.
Iron Bull: Doesn't matter. In the Qun, your role is everything.
Cassandra: And... do you think of me as male, then?
Iron Bull: Depends. In or out of your armor?

 
 
The above seems to confirm my previous assertion that role > everything, even your stated gender. You fight? You're male. The end. We don't care what your genitals are, or how you think of yourself, we're calling you male. You're creative and good at working with your hands? You're female. The end. We don't care what your genitals are, or how you think of yourself, we're calling you female.

[First Enchanter]

Haven't read the whole thread, but:

 

I think you're viewing sex in the way we do, but I think the Qunari probably view it very differently. While I'm sure it's physically pleasurable, I always got the sense it was much more of a mechanical act for them. My guess is that they don't view sex as a matter of intimacy or even attraction so much as just relieving a physical urge kind of like hunger or going to the bathroom.

[Dai Grepher]

Much like how templars don't really need lyrium for their powers, because Alistair was right all along and nothing can ever contradict DAO camp conversations.

They might not. Seekers don't. Perhaps anyone can learn to resist or cancel magic, but lyrium is required to make that ability stronger.

To be honest, strict gender roles never made sense for the Qun anyway.

But it made sense in that it didn't make sense. Under this new theory, it doesn't make sense that it doesn't make sense.

I think you two are talking about two different things. There is the Qun version of gender and the rest of the world's (Thedas and our real world) version of gender. The problem is that a person under the Qun can not live as they choose, according to their gender identity. If it happens to align, as with Krem, then great for him, but that may not be the case for all such people.

Which defeats the purpose of making the Qunari accepting of transgenderism. So why did BioWare float this concept to begin with? All they would do with this is annoy both sides of the fanbase.

Let's continue to use Krem in the role of artisan, not warrior. In Qunari society, artisan is a woman's role, and we know that people don't choose their roles. Perhaps Krem, from a young age, was observed to be good at working with his hands, showed early creativity, and so on. To put such a person in the role of a soldier would be a waste, and the Qunari waste nothing.
 
I think what we have here is a sort of chicken-egg scenario. What comes first in this case, the gender or the role? David Gaider's responses make it seem like the role is paramount.

And according to the canon, physical reality is paramount. You look like a [gender]. The size of his hands, whether he is clever or foolish, he does not choose these things, he is born with them. Sten clearly states that Qunari are assessed by the traits they are born with.

If Krem was placed into the role of artisan, then Krem would be a woman because that is a woman's role, regardless of his personal gender identity. It just so happens that Krem's actual chosen life role, that of soldier, fits in with his gender identity under the Qun.

And if Krem still identified as a man, what would happen? Reeducation? In that case I don't see the transgender players being too pleased with BioWare about that. So if that is the result, then what was the point of having Iron Bull say anything about aqun-athlok? They could have just stuck with the Sten version where gender is identified based on physical traits and people are put into roles based on that criteria.

It does suggest the question: would Bull have a different response if Krem was not trans, was in fact, a warrior woman as Cassandra? We don't really know.

Of course we know. He only saw Krem as a male because that is how Krem identified. It had nothing to do with Krem's role or actions.

Casandra asked him in one banter and he evaded with humor.

The above seems to confirm my previous assertion that role > everything, even your stated gender.

No, it confirms that The Iron Bull is full of bull crap. Cassandra's gender changes based on whether she's wearing armor or not? Ridiculous. This is nothing but Bull making mental exception for Krem.

You fight? You're male. The end. We don't care what your genitals are, or how you think of yourself, we're calling you male. You're creative and good at working with your hands? You're female. The end. We don't care what your genitals are, or how you think of yourself, we're calling you female.

In which case there's no point to having gender-based roles. It also disregards how transgenders identify. Thus people on both sides of the issue will have a problem with this.

[DreamerM]

Dai Grepher, you are arguing very hard against this, which is odd since I don't think you really understand the order in which this works.

The Tamassrans figure out your gender first. Then they find the right job for you. That's their purpose. If they have a transexual child, that is something they take into account when choosing that child's future role. They don't just pick a role, then break you so you fit into it, as you insist they would have to when faced with a child who was born one gender but believes themselves another.

 

 

Sten clearly states that Qunari are assessed by the traits they are born with.

Being trans IS a trait you are born with. It's just like any other trait you have. You must not know any trans people at all.
 

[Dai Grepher]

The Tamassrans determine the subject's gender based on physical sex.

The child is then assessed for what he or she is most skilled at as the gender they actually are.

The Qunari do not recognize belief as an inborn trait. You believe what the Tamassrans tell you to believe.

If this were not so then Sten's statements make no sense. Why would your women wish to be men? Do they also wish to live on the moon? That is as attainable. Sten clearly reflects the Qunari belief that someone of one gender cannot possibly be the opposite. To try can lead only to frustration.

[In Exile]

The Tamassrans determine the subject's gender based on physical sex.

The child is then assessed for what he or she is most skilled at as the gender they actually are.

The Qunari do not recognize belief as an inborn trait. You believe what the Tamassrans tell you to believe.

If this were not so then Sten's statements make no sense. Why would your women wish to be men? Do they also wish to live on the moon? That is as attainable. Sten clearly reflects the Qunari belief that someone of one gender cannot possibly be the opposite. To try can lead only to frustration.

 

No. Your inability to understand troll logic is about as bad as your inability to understand the Qunari's view on magic (e.g., Sten being super pro-blood magic when it comes time for a power-up ritual). The Qun assigns "gender" based on a predetermined set of criteria that have little to no connection with reality, much like it subdivides the entire world based on abstract criteria that have little to no connection with reality, much like now the Arishok applies the No True Scotsman fallacy to everything about the Qunari. 

[Dai Grepher]

No. Your inability to understand troll logic is about as bad as your inability to understand the Qunari's view on magic (e.g., Sten being super pro-blood magic when it comes time for a power-up ritual). The Qun assigns "gender" based on a predetermined set of criteria that have little to no connection with reality, much like it subdivides the entire world based on abstract criteria that have little to no connection with reality, much like now the Arishok applies the No True Scotsman fallacy to everything about the Qunari.

No. You ignore the facts of the established canon and don't understand the Qunari belief structure at all.

[Xilizhra]

Given that Sten says that the Hero of Ferelden can't be a woman, even if she looks like one, I suspect Grepher has this backwards. Sten is clearly not denying that she's a skilled fighter.

[DreamerM]

They figure out your future job and then your gender, in that order.

Can you prove this?

They wouldn't wait 12 years to assign you a job in that case. They would start training you right from the womb, not wait until you are on the cusp of puberty. The way Bull makes it sound, the Tamasrans put a lot of thought into what child is best for what role, and they watch children closely for signs of talents and skills and personalities, in addition to their physical attributes. So, if a child manifests as trans, their plans for that child will change. They don't need to reprogram or "fix" the child if the child's original training is still incomplete. They just need to alter their vision for what that child's forever role is going to be, which is why they wait 12 years to assign you to your job.

And the Qun is so stringent on gender roles, yes, they can declare a trans boy who was born female a "man" and start prepping him for male roles. Likewise a biological male who manifests female. The Tamassrans can declare you female and start treating you as such. Just because YOU can't imagine how it would work doesn't mean THEY can't. And don't imagine it's a thing done lightly, or on a whim, or just because a man seems better suited to be an artisen then a warrior. They know the difference. And the Tamassrans spend their lives matching the right children with the right roles. I don't think the mere existence of trans people confuses them half as much as it seems to confuse you.

[Iakus]

Not really.

I'm not sure how many more times it needs to be explained: if your Warden presents as a woman, Sten objects that women don't fight.

 

Krem is not a woman. He's a transexual man. Bull gets this, because the Qun ... as much as it's scary-AF ... is ahead of our real-world human culture in terms of acknowledging that transexuals are not misguided or delusional or just atypical members of their biological gender. They are what they claim to be. The Tamassrans know this, they recognize it in their charges, and they take it into account when choosing roles for all the little Qun-lings.

 

Their job is to find the right job for each child. They have nothing to gain from sending all their trans people to re-conditioning just for being trans. That's not the proper use of their resources.

Actually the Qun is quite scary, given the Tamassran's select your role, and therefore your gender FOR YOU!  And you can like it or lump it.

 

It doesn't matter if Krem identifies as a man and the Warden as a woman.  THe Tamassran's decide who and what you are.

[DreamerM]

Actually the Qun is quite scary, given the Tamassran's select your role, and therefore your gender FOR YOU!  And you can like it or lump it.

 

It doesn't matter if Krem identifies as a man and the Warden as a woman.  THe Tamassran's decide who and what you are.

Yes they do, but they don't decide at random. They train their whole lives to be sure they expertly pair the right person to the right job. They watch each growing child closely, and take everything into account: not just your physical attributes, but your mind, your talents and, yes, your gender identity and your budding sexuality. It's not just their job to put you in A place, but put you in THE RIGHT PLACE.

It's not an easy job. Sometimes mistakes get made. But understanding what a transgender person is NOT incompatable with the idea that certain genders have certain roles, which seems to be what everyone has been arguing about for six pages.