204 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Can you prove this?

They wouldn't wait 12 years to assign you a job in that case. They would start training you right from the womb, not wait until you are on the cusp of puberty. The way Bull makes it sound, the Tamasrans put a lot of thought into what child is best for what role, and they watch children closely for signs of talents and skills and personalities, in addition to their physical attributes. So, if a child manifests as trans, their plans for that child will change. They don't need to reprogram or "fix" the child if the child's original training is still incomplete. They just need to alter their vision for what that child's forever role is going to be, which is why they wait 12 years to assign you to your job.

And the Qun is so stringent on gender roles, yes, they can declare a trans boy who was born female a "man" and start prepping him for male roles. Likewise a biological male who manifests female. The Tamassrans can declare you female and start treating you as such. Just because YOU can't imagine how it would work doesn't mean THEY can't. And don't imagine it's a thing done lightly, or on a whim, or just because a man seems better suited to be an artisen then a warrior. They know the difference. And the Tamassrans spend their lives matching the right children with the right roles. I don't think the mere existence of trans people confuses them half as much as it seems to confuse you.

 

They obviously don't determine your "role" at birth, because it constantly changes. Just listen to the arishok give a speech about a karasten. One can never be more than what it is... until the Arishok gets a sword to the throat and suddenly there's a "Help Wanted!" sign on the Triumvirate door. The most basic and foundational aspect of the Qun, from an epistemological POV, is the wholesale rejection of the correspondence theory of truth as a way of viewing the world. They've got this weird Platonic idealism going, where they think they can define reality into conformity. 

[Shadow Quickpaw]

Being transgender (or identifying as anything, sexuality or gender, etc) has a lot to do with the individual's ability to choose to live/act said identity. The Qun removes this choice from the individual. You act/live as they tell you to, or you die/are chemically re-indoctrinated. Removing this agency from the individual is the problem that Hissrad (the "Liar") dodges in his explanations (indeed he had almost reached "Tal-Vashoth" by that point anyway, and seemed much more comfortable with himself away from the influence of the Qun).

 

Note: BEING transgender (barring the choice to undergo physical alterations) or non-heteronormative is not the individual's choice. They are that way naturally. Living that life, however, is a choice that the Qun would deny them.

[Qun00]

All I know is that I'll be disappointed if we visit Par Vollen in DA4 and there is no option to get some sweet tamassran sex.

[Dai Grepher]

Given that Sten says that the Hero of Ferelden can't be a woman, even if she looks like one, I suspect Grepher has this backwards. Sten is clearly not denying that she's a skilled fighter.

He calls the female Warden a woman in another conversation. So you are incorrect.

The context of the statement you reference is that Sten is making a logical point against the female being a warrior. It's the equivalent of telling a woman, "You have male genitalia, therefore it follows that you cannot be a woman". The point being to force the female to admit that she doesn't have male genitalia, ergo that the female is not a warrior.

He goes on to say that women are priests, merchants, or artisans, they do not fight. The equivalent being, "Women have breasts, a vagina, and ovaries, they do not have male genitalia".

Reject this explanation if you want to, but the fact remains that Sten calls a female Warden a woman in a separate conversation. So he does not see her as a man, nor does he believe her desire to fight makes her a man.
 

Actually the Qun is quite scary, given the Tamassran's select your role, and therefore your gender FOR YOU!  And you can like it or lump it.
 
It doesn't matter if Krem identifies as a man and the Warden as a woman.  THe Tamassran's decide who and what you are.

Right, and even under the idea that transgenderism is accepted under the Qun, if Krem went before the Tamassrans and claimed to be a male and a warrior, they would still evaluate Krem with a test of strength, skill, and technique. The Tamassrans might observe the fact that Krem can't take a simple shield bash and conclude that Krem is not a warrior and thus not a man.

So even under this newfound notion of transgender acceptance under the Qun, BioWare defeats its own politically correct efforts to pander to their desired minorities, because those who identify as the opposite of their physical sex will be denied that identity if they fail to meet the standards set by the Tamassrans in order to be recognized as the identified gender.

[nightscrawl]

I don't think it was wise to introduce the concept of trans acceptance under the guise of the Aqun-Athlok since it seems to have led to more confusion than anything else. In the game, and from Iron Bull's words, the Qunari society is put forth as this progressive ideal as far as being trans is concerned, when that is not the case. How can it be when the individual has no real choice in the matter? Of course, he's going to present it to the Inquisitor (and the player) in that way according to the precepts of his character, but in the end, I don't think it was helpful to the player other than a very minimal way of introducing a new bit of Thedosian lore.
 
The problem here is that too many people, even some in this thread, are looking at real-world trans issues and conflating them with how that is dealt with under the Qun. It is a false equivalency. A person does not choose to be trans, that is certainly true, but they do choose what gender to live as, a choice which is denied under the Qun.

 

Be careful how you picture the process of becoming aqun-athlok. If you picture someone announcing it, and suddenly the Tamassrans fall all over themselves to abide by that person's wishes, that's not really in keeping with what we've established about Qunari society...and neither is it something Iron Bull implies when he explains the existence of the term. From what you've said, I think the hitch is probably your perception of it as a choice.

(Emphasis mine.)

 

 

[edit]

I'm also feeling, given the unfortunate info dump in Trespasser, that Patrick Weekes is just not very adept at presenting new information to the player in a natural way, at least through dialogue.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 24 juillet 2016 - 04:25 .

[draken-heart]

You are all acting kind of stupid over this. We really know nothing about how the Qun handles this situation so we use exclusively what we know from the past. In the end, when it comes to the title of the thread, Tamassrans 'pop your cork' regardless of gender/sexuality for safety/productivity reasons as far as we know.

[raging_monkey]

You are all acting kind of stupid over this. We really know nothing about how the Qun handles this situation so we use exclusively what we know from the past. In the end, when it comes to the title of the thread, Tamassrans 'pop your cork' regardless of gender/sexuality for safety/productivity reasons as far as we know.

this

[nightscrawl]

You are all acting kind of stupid over this. We really know nothing about how the Qun handles this situation so we use exclusively what we know from the past. In the end, when it comes to the title of the thread, Tamassrans 'pop your cork' regardless of gender/sexuality for safety/productivity reasons as far as we know.

 

The information we have is all we have to go on, true, but when it comes to things like sexuality I think it gets people to wondering how it would all work, especially since Tamassran is a woman's role. A gay Qunari man isn't going to be satisfied by that, and neither are straight women. If the whole point is to be satisfied and relieve those sexual urges, then the person's sexuality should be catered to, otherwise they might as well just do it themselves and not go to the Tamassrans in the first place.

 

Also, Bull's depiction is personally biased, since he himself is bi, so he can be satisfied by just a woman. It would be the same if he were straight. HIS sexual needs are met by the female Tamassrans, and that is what he has experience with. It is not unreasonable for a gay male or straight female Inquisitor to want to ask, "Uh... what if you prefer men?"

Modifié par nightscrawl, 24 juillet 2016 - 07:46 .

[Gervaise]

Hate to disappoint anyone who is hoping to go to Par Vollen to get "sweet Tamassran sex" but the fact is these aren't brothels open to all, they provide a service to those of the Qun.    So unless you are a fully paid up member of the Qun you are going to be disappointed.    It is just possible that they might assign one of their spies to service you in the hope of getting information but it probably isn't felt to be worth the effort.   

 

From what I can tell, outsiders are tolerated in Par Vollen for trade only or the occasional diplomatic delegation from the mainland, which is one of the few reasons we could even be asked to go there.  The idea you could just walk off the street into a Tamassran run brothel is a non starter.    They are members only health clinics that are there to keep the minds and bodies of their workers satisfied.     

[DreamerM]

A person does not choose to be trans, that is certainly true, but they do choose what gender to live as, a choice which is denied under the Qun.

... So by your logic, say, a gay person doesn't choose to be gay, but does choose to live as a gay person? So, just, stay in the closet forever? Do you know why people enter those closets in the first place?

Because they are afraid. Because they know terrible things happen to people like them.  The Tamasran's job isn't to scare children, job is to raise the most skilled, productive citizens they can, and that means considering all of the factors. They would want the children to share these things with them, in order to avoid placing them in the wrong role, which would be terrible not just for the child, but for the Qun as a whole because the Qun is about utilizing everyone and everything to maximum efficiency and this is going to result in someone unsuited who will have problems with the job.

 

The Qun is not "progressive," as far as transexuals goes. The Tamassran attitude seems to be purely practical. They accept and adapt their intended roles for transexuals because they know they will get more out of them this way. Everyone else accepts it because the Tamassrans and the Qun say so.

Sten wasn't looking at your genitals when he declared his amazement that you were a woman, he was looking at your sword arm. Women don't fight, but transexual men who are acknowledged by the Tamasrans and the Qun itself as men no doubt do.... which, I think, is what Iron Bull was trying to explain.

Theoretically, a transexual man trained as a warrior would have been greeted by Sten as a man and fellow warrior, because if the Tamassrans say this person is a man, and this person is doing a man's role, and presents as a man, then Sten certainly isn't going to question it. Why would he? All of his boxes are ticked. You are the one who insists they must use GENITALS AND ONLY GENITALS to determine gender, when it doesn't always work like that and there's no reason the Tamasrans wouldn't know this.

[Inkvisiittori]

Sten is not omnipotent. And neither is Iron Bull. There's no need to take what they say as the absolute and only truth there could ever be. They could be mistaken. They could be lying. They could be presenting personal opinions as facts. That happens all the time.

 

Iron Bull is a Hissrad - a liar. It's his job. Qun is all about propaganda. Bull's stories about free sex every day as often as you like with Tamassrans is highly suspicious. There are many ways to recruit more people under the Qun - and that is the only thing the qunari care about. 

 

There are no freedoms under the Qun. You are what the Qun demands. If Qun demands you are Sten then that is what you will be. It doesn't matter if you like it or not. Same thing should go for sex. Your wants do not matter - how well you serve the Qun is the only thing of importance. Self-discipline is the highest virtue under the Qun, after all. Selfishness has no way place there.

 

Bull was also re-educated. He said "every memory is like a page of a book - write a few notes in the margins of a page, erase a word here and there, your whole outlook changes." You can't trust a single word coming out of his mouth, not when he was brainwashed like that.

[DreamerM]

Right, and even under the idea that transgenderism is accepted under the Qun, if Krem went before the Tamassrans and claimed to be a male and a warrior, they would still evaluate Krem with a test of strength, skill, and technique. The Tamassrans might observe the fact that Krem can't take a simple shield bash and conclude that Krem is not a warrior and thus not a man.

So even under this newfound notion of transgender acceptance under the Qun, BioWare defeats its own politically correct efforts to pander to their desired minorities, because those who identify as the opposite of their physical sex will be denied that identity if they fail to meet the standards set by the Tamassrans in order to be recognized as the identified gender.

How do you know what Standards (besides genitalia) the Tamasrans use to identify gender? And seriously, a "shield bash?" Not only am I pretty sure Krem can (and has) taken those before, but there are plenty of biological men, fictional and real, I could name who probably couldn't and yet wouldn't be any less men for it. Shields hurt, yo.

Your whole arguement gives me flashbacks to those guys who see my t-shirt or my cosplay and immediately have to quiz me on "nerd" trivia because I obviously can't REALLY be a nerd if I don't meet your standards. Standards that didn't exist before you needed to make sure I was really what I was claiming to be. I'm glad YOU aren't in charge of determining the course of my entire life...

I figure the Tamassrans have a better way of knowing if someone is male or female then just "how many shield bashes can you take." Come on now.

[nightscrawl]

... So by your logic, say, a gay person doesn't choose to be gay, but does choose to live as a gay person? So, just, stay in the closet forever? Do you know why people enter those closets in the first place?

Because they are afraid. Because they know terrible things happen to people like them.  The Tamasran's job isn't to scare children, job is to raise the most skilled, productive citizens they can, and that means considering all of the factors. They would want the children to share these things with them, in order to avoid placing them in the wrong role, which would be terrible not just for the child, but for the Qun as a whole because this person is doing work they were not suited for. The Qun is about utilizing everyone and everything to maximum efficiency.

The Qun is not progressive, but the Tamassrans want to put you in the right place. Sten wasn't looking at your genitals when he declared his amazement that you were a woman, he was looking at your sword arm. Women don't fight, but transexual men who are acknowledged by the Tamasrans and the Qun itself as men no doubt do.... which, I think, is what Iron Bull was trying to explain.

Theoretically, a transexual man trained as a warrior would have been greeted by Sten as a man and fellow warrior, because if the Tamassrans say this person is a man, and this person is doing a man's role, and presents as a man, then Sten certainly isn't going to question it. Why would he? All of his boxes are ticked.

You are the one who insists they must use GENITALS AND ONLY GENITALS to determine gender, when it doesn't always work like that and there's no reason the Tamasrans wouldn't know this.

I don't understand how you got that from my post. I don't think the Tamassrans should do anything specifically, I'm just extrapolating from the known data we have, which is very limited.

Part of the whole transgender thing is living as the gender you identify with, being treated as that gender by other people, using the correct name and pronouns, using the correct bathroom, and so forth. Steve might feel like Susan inside, but wants to actually live as Susan on the outside as well.

Being trans under the Qun is not like being trans in the rest of the world because gender is related to your role under the Qun.

Let's take another character, Maevaris Tilani. World of Thedas tells us she chose to start presenting and living as female in her teens. She made that choice for herself and luckily seems to have had her father's support in doing so. That is the choice I'm referring to. She could have conformed to the standards of Tevinter society, gotten married to a woman and sired heirs, just as Dorian was expected to do, but she didn't want to do that and be miserable for the rest of her life.
 
Again, that personal choice is denied to people under the Qun.
 
If Krem was Qunari, but sucked at doing soldiery things, was uncoordinated, not athletic, and so on -- some kids just aren't, for whatever reason, and no amount of training will make it so -- do you think he would still have been placed with soldiers just because he's male? I highly doubt it.
 
Imagine a young, physically ungifted Krem who likes making things with his hands. Krem thinks of himself as a boy, regardless of what's in his pants. All of his more physically able bros get sent to be soldiers while he is sent to apprentice as an artisan. Krem is now referred to as female, regardless of what he thinks of himself as.
 
I am saying that genitals don't matter and neither does the person's own view of themselves, which I said in this post, with these words:

The above seems to confirm my previous assertion that role > everything, even your stated gender. You fight? You're male. The end. We don't care what your genitals are, or how you think of yourself, we're calling you male. You're creative and good at working with your hands? You're female. The end. We don't care what your genitals are, or how you think of yourself, we're calling you female.

The Tamassrans MAY take a child's trans status into consideration, but if they decide that a trans boy (born a girl) is better off as being an artisan, that is what the trans boy will be and is now a "she." Again, the child has no choice, as per David Gaider.

 

You have yet to address the case of the person's gender identity being a mismatch for their assigned role. Krem is a trans man and a solder. That works out well for him under the Qun. But what if he weren't?

 

While in the game the Aqun-Athlok concept is used to explain trans acceptance, it doesn't only apply to trans people as the Tamassrans want to put the right person in the right role. It can't apply only to trans people because not everyone, cis and trans, fits neatly into a box. Because they want to do that, but also have these gender restrictions, they use this weird logic to allow themselves to do that and still say they are conforming to their rules.

 

Let's go another way and take someone who is NOT trans at all. Let's take a cis-gender boy who shows proficiency and creativity with crafts. This is a boy who was born a boy and thinks of himself as a boy. It seems to me that the Tamassrans would still place that cis boy with the artisans and call him female.

 

Look at Bull's banter with Cassandra on the subject; he's not talking about a trans person there, but of a woman who fights, who is, from that point onward, referred to and treated as male.

[nightscrawl]

Same thing should go for sex. Your wants do not matter - how well you serve the Qun is the only thing of importance. Self-discipline is the highest virtue under the Qun, after all. Selfishness has no way place there.

What you say makes sense on a surface level. But if the point of those sexual services is to have that sexual release and be satisfied so they can leave and continue being productive members of the Qun, that's not going to happen for straight women and gay men, so it defeats the whole purpose of it in the first place. Again, the person may as well do it themselves.

 

I am seriously just imagining some Qunari gay man or straight woman being bored on the job, day dreaming of screwing some guy because the woman Tamassran they had the other day just didn't do it for them. That is in no way helpful.

 

In that case, it seems unlikely that most of the straight women (quite a large group) and the gay men (arguably a smaller group), would be expected to just suck it up while their straight and bisexual male fellows get their cookies.

 

The Qunari are experts as going around their own rules. I think they they would find some way around it.

[DreamerM]

Let's take another character, Maevaris Tilani. World of Thedas tells us she chose to start presenting and living as female in her teens. She made that choice for herself and luckily seems to have had her father's support in doing so. That is the choice I'm referring to. She could have conformed to the standards of Tevinter society, gotten married to a woman and sired heirs, just as Dorian was expected to do, but she didn't want to do that and be miserable for the rest of her life.
 
Again, that personal choice is denied to people under the Qun.

Theoretically, that personal choice is not neccessary under the Qun, because theoretically the Tamasrans would have noticed Mae's real nature as she was growing up and could have altered her role accordingly. She would never have had to choose to face the scorn and disbelief of the world by choosing to express herself as a woman, because the Qun would have seen her signs, said, "you are a woman" and she would have been treated as such from then on out. Because the Qun is never wrong. Officially.
 

Imagine a young, physically ungifted Krem who likes making things with his hands. Krem thinks of himself as a boy, regardless of what's in his pants. All of his more physically able bros get sent to be soldiers while he is sent to apprentice as an artisan. Krem is now referred to as female, regardless of what he thinks of himself as.

You are the only one who thinks it goes like this. Physically ungifted males have other roles they are referred to, like the priesthood and such. They don't choose your job, THEN choose your gender. Doing it in that order would just be silly. You know if a child is a boy or girl (even a transexual boy or girl) before you know if that child is cut out to be a soldier or the like.

 

 

Let's go another way and take someone who is NOT trans at all. Let's take a cis-gender boy who shows proficiency and creativity with crafts. This is a boy who was born a boy and thinks of himself as a boy. It seems to me that the Tamassrans would still place that cis boy with the artisans and call him female.

In that case, the disconnect between the assigned and actual gender would create a disconnect and distraction that would result in this BOY not performing his job to the best of his ability. When any part of the Qun is not functioning at it's highest level, the whole system suffers.

I'm sure there are skilled artesenal jobs suitable for males under the Qun. Perhaps as carpenters, architects or shipwrights. The Tamassrans would know. They would find him something.

[DreamerM]

I am seriously just imagining some Qunari gay man or straight woman being bored on the job, day dreaming of screwing some guy because the woman Tamassran they had the other day just didn't do it for them. That is in no way helpful.

 

To be fair, Bull never said the Tamassrans had sex with you themselves, just that "went to" them if you wanted it. I imagine, they will know the right place to send you. The Qun is about efficiency, after all. They will know how to get you what you need to keep functioning at the high level they expect.

[nightscrawl]

In that case, the disconnect between the assigned and actual gender would create a disconnect and distraction that would result in this BOY not performing his job to the best of his ability. When any part of the Qun is not functioning at it's highest level, the whole system suffers.

I'm sure there are skilled artesenal jobs suitable for males under the Qun. Perhaps as carpenters, architects or shipwrights. The Tamassrans would know. They would find him something.

So why is it okay for the woman who fights, as in the banter with Cassandra, and not for a man who is an artisan?

 

I also question the wording there. It seems like you don't think that carpenters, architects or shipwrights fall under artisan, whereas to me they absolutely do and that entire part of the Qunari industry would be run by women. The Qunari idea seems to be that "women make things and nurture/educate," "men hit things and lead/direct," and "both can be spies."

[nightscrawl]

To be fair, Bull never said the Tamassrans had sex with you themselves, just that "went to" them if you wanted it. I imagine, they will know the right place to send you. The Qun is about efficiency, after all. They will know how to get you what you need to keep functioning at the high level they expect.

 

All he says is that "they pop your cork" whenever you need it. To me that infers that is it the Tamassrans themselves who do it.

[DreamerM]

So why is it okay for the woman who fights, as in the banter with Cassandra, and not for a man who is an artisan?

 

I also question the wording there. It seems like you don't think that carpenters, architects or shipwrights fall under artisan, whereas to me they absolutely do and that entire part of the Qunari industry would be run by women. The Qunari idea seems to be that "women make things and nurture/educate," "men hit things and lead/direct," and "both can be spies."

I'm just saying, I'm certain there are jobs considered the equivalent of artisen that are suited for a crafty/creativity-inclined male. I don't know what jobs, specifically, those would be, but I'm sure they exist. Likewise, I'm sure they have combat jobs for militant women (who dont want to/ aren't willing to give up their gender) that aren't "warriors," maybe as support units or forward scouts or snipers or saarabas handlers. The right job for everyone is the ideal.

And I'm also sure the "women can't be warriors" thing goes back to biology: men are stronger/can take shield bashes/can do more push-ups and the like, therefore they are better suited to be warriors. The only time this is overlooked is with someone like Krem, who the Qun has declared male and who will be expected to fight as hard as any other warrior. The Qun is never wrong.

[nightscrawl]

^ You're still acting like it's a choice with "who dont want to/ aren't willing to give up their gender," but it's not a choice.
 

Be careful how you picture the process of becoming aqun-athlok. If you picture someone announcing it, and suddenly the Tamassrans fall all over themselves to abide by that person's wishes, that's not really in keeping with what we've established about Qunari society...and neither is it something Iron Bull implies when he explains the existence of the term. From what you've said, I think the hitch is probably your perception of it as a choice.

The Qunari are both rigid and fluid at the same time. They're a Non-Newtonian fluid. They're rigid because they have certain rules and ways of thinking, such as about gender roles, but fluid in that they are willing to warp things to conform to those rigid rules. Women don't fight. If you are a woman and fighting, you're a "man."

[Inkvisiittori]

What you say makes sense on a surface level. But if the point of those sexual services is to have that sexual release and be satisfied so they can leave and continue being productive members of the Qun, that's not going to happen for straight women and gay men, so it defeats the whole purpose of it in the first place. Again, the person may as well do it themselves.

 

I am seriously just imagining some Qunari gay man or straight woman being bored on the job, day dreaming of screwing some guy because the woman Tamassran they had the other day just didn't do it for them. That is in no way helpful.

 

In that case, it seems unlikely that most of the straight women (quite a large group) and the gay men (arguably a smaller group), would be expected to just suck it up while their straight and bisexual male fellows get their cookies.

 

The Qunari are experts as going around their own rules. I think they they would find some way around it.

 

The Qun does not only tell you what you should do - it also tells you what you should think. If you're thinking about screwing some guy and it's affecting your work you go the re-educators. Problem solved (until you need some re-educating again... and again, depending on how 'difficult' you are. They may just melt your brain and send you to the mines to work as a mindless drone, less problems that way). 

[nightscrawl]

One thing I would really like to know is how common are Aqun-Athlok "men" like Avaline or Cassandra in the Qun? We've had examples of badass warrior women in all of the games and most novels, and I do mean warrior, not rogue.

 

Excluding the PC for all games,

* DAO has Ser Cauthrien and Branka,

* DA2 has Avaline and Meredith,

* DAI has Cassandra.

(All other women I can think of are rogues.)

 

The Stolen Throne novel has Rowan Guerrin.

The Calling novel has Genevieve and Utha the Silent Sister.

Asunder novel has Evangeline.

 

I do find it interesting that all three of David Gaider's novels have them, and not the two written by others. These are characters that have extended scenes and dialogue and personality, not just a token warrior woman. I think the gender fluid person in the Last Flight might be a warrior, but is not a woman, being gender fluid, and is also little more than a single reference than an actual fully-formed character.

 

 

Back to the Qun... It just seems a shame to me to waste such potential. So would all of these women be "men" under the Qun?

[Gervaise]

Nightscrawl is correct about Qun logic when it comes to the role assigned to the person.   Normally males are the warriors for the simple fact that they are stronger, more aggressive, etc, so usually no matter how much better than the average women the warrior might be she is still going to be inferior to a man (by Qun logic).   However, on the very rare occasion they may find they have got a girl (biologically) who is just as good at fighting and just as tough (mentally and physically) as the boys in her year group. So they assign her to the military but redefine her as a man.   Effectively it is the Qun that have decided that person is transgender.

 

Usually if a female seems to have a talent for fighting, they are more likely to be given to the Ben-Hassrath on the basis that they are also likely to exhibit the mental talent required for that role.   Likewise, Bull was originally thought to be a shoe in for the military because he was such a big, strong, muscular child, but when the Tamassran realised he had such a quick mind, she decided he would be wasted as a mere soldier, so she re-classed him as Ben-Hassrath, but suitable for a male role in that organisation.   I think most of the examples given above would be assigned to the Ben-Hassrath rather than the military, so would still remain classed as female, as they would be placed in Ben-Hassrath roles normally given to women.

 

Not all males are going to be big and tough, which is why there are a variety of roles suited to them.  It is said that both genders will study philosophy or sciences but within those particular fields there is a division by discipline.     So I imagine being transgender would be less of an issue if you are assessed a philosopher, you just get put in whichever discipline you seem suited to and then you are labelled accordingly.  

 

So initially they will be assessing a child on the basis of its biological gender but are willing to make exceptions if it seems obvious that the child is behaving like the opposite of what their biology suggests.   Then once assigned to the role, they are officially classed as the opposite gender.     It is a combination of mental and physical attributes that decides what their role will be rather than simple gender.  

 

What does not happen is that a child insists they are male when they were born biologically female and then is assigned according to their stated gender even though the Tamassran still feels they are better suited to a female role.    If Krem had been born a weedy kid, no amount of insisting they were male would carry any weight with the Tamassran when it came to evaluating them for a role based on their physique.    However, they would look at the general behaviour and if they decided on balance that they "thought" like a man, then they would be assigned to a role normally reserved for men of that physique.    

 

Personal choice or stated gender identity don't enter into it; it is purely on how the Tamassrans view the matter.   They tell you what you are; you don't tell them.   If you didn't qualify to be transgender, according to their criteria, and you still kept insisting on identifying as the opposite gender to your biological one, refusing the role they assigned you to, then it is likely that would involve a visit to the re-educators.   If that didn't work then likely they would simply give you a dose of qamek as a hopeless case.     

[Andraste_Reborn]

 I think the gender fluid person in the Last Flight might be a warrior, but is not a woman, being gender fluid, and is also little more than a single reference than an actual fully-formed character.

 

Lisme is a mage - Isseya mentions that their switches in gender presentation caused problems in the Circle. (Luckily the Grey Wardens do not give a damn if you wear a dress or a moustache or both, as long as you kill enough darkspawn.)

[nightscrawl]

Lisme is a mage - Isseya mentions that their switches in gender presentation caused problems in the Circle. (Luckily the Grey Wardens do not give a damn if you wear a dress or a moustache or both, as long as you kill enough darkspawn.)

 

Thanks for the info .