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Tamassran Sexual Services vs Gender & Sexuality


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#176
Gervaise

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What still doesn't seem to have been solved is the problem of female only Tamassrans looking after the sexual needs of the whole population.    Gender is what you identify as, sexuality defines who you are attracted to.   

 

So, as has already been pointed out, a heterosexual woman is only attracted to men.   Does this mean they have to endure being pleasured by a woman against their natural inclinations?   Would they be "persuaded" that they should accept this?   Or are they encouraged only to have sex in order to procreate?    If they need relief in between times do they just have to manage this for themselves?  

 

With gay males presumably the Tamassran could simply pair them up with one another.    The Tamassran would still be "popping their cork", just not doing it personally.  This could also work for heterosexual women but they would have to ensure contraception if they wanted to avoid undesirable pregnancies.   

 

I imagine that someone being transgender would add another level of complication to any arrangements, since you would identify with one gender but have the body parts of the other.   This could throw up a few problems when it comes to your sexuality, particularly if the Tamassran simply assigned you a partner and told you to get on with it and neither side was happy with the arrangement.



#177
Qun00

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Hate to disappoint anyone who is hoping to go to Par Vollen to get "sweet Tamassran sex" but the fact is these aren't brothels open to all, they provide a service to those of the Qun. So unless you are a fully paid up member of the Qun you are going to be disappointed. It is just possible that they might assign one of their spies to service you in the hope of getting information but it probably isn't felt to be worth the effort.

From what I can tell, outsiders are tolerated in Par Vollen for trade only or the occasional diplomatic delegation from the mainland, which is one of the few reasons we could even be asked to go there. The idea you could just walk off the street into a Tamassran run brothel is a non starter. They are members only health clinics that are there to keep the minds and bodies of their workers satisfied.


Awww man, the Qunari **** up everything.

Wait, I know! An option to convert to the Qun. Those tall horned ladies are more than worth it. :D

#178
Iakus

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One thing I would really like to know is how common are Aqun-Athlok "men" like Avaline or Cassandra in the Qun? We've had examples of badass warrior women in all of the games and most novels, and I do mean warrior, not rogue.

 

Excluding the PC for all games,

* DAO has Ser Cauthrien and Branka,

* DA2 has Avaline and Meredith,

* DAI has Cassandra.

(All other women I can think of are rogues.)

 

The Stolen Throne novel has Rowan Guerrin.

The Calling novel has Genevieve and Utha the Silent Sister.

Asunder novel has Evangeline.

 

I do find it interesting that all three of David Gaider's novels have them, and not the two written by others. These are characters that have extended scenes and dialogue and personality, not just a token warrior woman. I think the gender fluid person in the Last Flight might be a warrior, but is not a woman, being gender fluid, and is also little more than a single reference than an actual fully-formed character.

 

 

Back to the Qun... It just seems a shame to me to waste such potential. So would all of these women be "men" under the Qun?

Except none of these are Aqun-Athlok since, as far as I know, at least, they all identify as women.  

 

Which is weird in at least one instance.  Iron Bull claims Cassandra would do well under the Qun if she didn't die in the fighting.  But in another instance when he complains she's not hitting him hard enough in sparring, he taunts her with "This is why we don't let women fight"



#179
Xilizhra

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Which is weird in at least one instance.  Iron Bull claims Cassandra would do well under the Qun if she didn't die in the fighting.  But in another instance when he complains she's not hitting him hard enough in sparring, he taunts her with "This is why we don't let women fight"

Clarification: he says "This is why the Qun doesn't like women fighting."



#180
DreamerM

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^ You're still acting like it's a choice with "who dont want to/ aren't willing to give up their gender," but it's not a choice.

You're right. The Tamassrans have a choice to make. They have to weigh your attachment to your gender against your desire to be a warrior. You can't just re-assign someone's gender arbitrarily unless you are SURE: The role won't fit, and the person won't be able to perform it correctly, meaning the whole Qun suffers. The re-education is a last resort, and they don't use it on children. Children are still learning.

We don't know exactly what Criteria the Tamassrans use to determine a person's gender, but Iron Bull seemed pretty sure Krem would have no problem meeting them.

 

In "For Those Who Speak," when the Tamassran is trying to convert Isabella to the Qun, she asks all kinds of intense personal questions designed to figure out Isabella's real identity. We have no reason to think they are any less through with the children they have been tasked with raising.



#181
In Exile

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Except none of these are Aqun-Athlok since, as far as I know, at least, they all identify as women.  

 

Which is weird in at least one instance.  Iron Bull claims Cassandra would do well under the Qun if she didn't die in the fighting.  But in another instance when he complains she's not hitting him hard enough in sparring, he taunts her with "This is why we don't let women fight"

 

But keep in mind the difference. In the latter case, the Iron Bull uses a gender stereotype: women hold back. He knows Cassandra is strong. But she's not hitting him hard enough. Again, these problems all start from trying to think about it as biology instead of as definitions. 



#182
DreamerM

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Clarification: he says "This is why the Qun doesn't like women fighting."

Right, because Qunari women don't become warriors unless they are recognized as men by the Qun. From what David Gaider said, this recognition is difficult to obtain and requires a Tamassran to be really convinced that you are not just an atypical female with a violent streak. I'm sure there are other places they can put those. You only get declared male if you can convince them you are a genuine transexual. Iron Bull seems convinced Krem would be able to do this.
 

Which is weird in at least one instance.  Iron Bull claims Cassandra would do well under the Qun if she didn't die in the fighting.

Because she "loves rules." For what it's worth, knowing she is doing the right thing is more important to Cassandra then being a warrior. She puts down her sword if she becomes Divine, after all. If she'd been born under the Qun, she'd be content in a role where she felt she was doing important work that was helping her people.

However, I think Bull underestimates how important it is that Cassandra CHOSE the life she lives. She could have been a pampered princess, close enough to the throne to warrant special treatment, but far enough away not to be troubled with any real responsibility. Bull probably imagines that because Cassandra is so dedicated and good at her job, of course a Tamassran would have noticed and put her in a role she would find rewarding. But Cassandra chose, for herself, to become what she is.

And if Thedas was conquered by the Qunari, I don't think she'd "do well." If nothing else, guilt of being unable to stop the invasion would eat her up inside. She'd hold herself personally responsible.

As for everyone else, yeah, Sera and Varric would mouth off until their brains were melted. And the mages....considering the fate that waits for THEM, I think Solas being unable to do his dream walking would be the least of his concerns. And Cole... I don't even know what they'd try and do to Cole. They would want him dead, obviously, but he's a Spirit and spirits don't really die. He could come back in a new form.... wouldn't be Cole anymore though. Might be something worse. They might try and bind him, but that sounds like a great way to accidently transform him into a demon.

By the way, we know captured mages get their minds melted and made into laborers, but what about a mage who converts? Do they get made Saarabass if they submit to it willingly? Ugh, I hate everything about this....



#183
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People need to remember the Iron Bull lies to himself constantly, and desperately tries to convince himself the Qun is right for everyone (or not so bad). I wouldn't take his words about who would fit in as gospel. He doesn't fit in, after all. 


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#184
DreamerM

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People need to remember the Iron Bull lies to himself constantly, and desperately tries to convince himself the Qun is right for everyone (or not so bad). I wouldn't take his words about who would fit in as gospel. He doesn't fit in, after all. 

No kidding. I made a thread about how frustrating I find Bull's apologism for the Qun to be, especially in light of how the Qun treats mages. Really, I realized I couldn't respect his attitude towards the Qun when he said, "can you imagine Solas doing his fade-walking under the Qun? Or Viviane her political bullsh?" What he leaves out is, considering what the Qun does to mages, I think not being able to pursue their favorite things would be the least of their problems. 



#185
In Exile

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No kidding. I made a thread about how frustrating I find Bull's apologism for the Qun to be, especially in light of how the Qun treats mages. Really, I realized I couldn't respect his attitude towards the Qun when he said, "can you imagine Solas doing his fade-walking under the Qun? Or Viviane her political bullsh?" What he leaves out is, considering what the Qun does to mages, I think not being able to pursue their favorite things would be the least of their problems. 

 

I'm not sure how much of that is an IB issue and how much of that is just a failing of the writers. This is something we can never bring up. Even in DA2, when the whole "torturing mages" thing is a big deal narrative wise. Bioware has just constantly failed to address this point. 



#186
Dai Grepher

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You are all acting kind of stupid over this. We really know nothing about how the Qun handles this situation so we use exclusively what we know from the past. In the end, when it comes to the title of the thread, Tamassrans 'pop your cork' regardless of gender/sexuality for safety/productivity reasons as far as we know.


Sex is for procreation. Any urge outside of that must be restrained through discipline.

As far as we know, that is what the Qun really teaches.

The information we have is all we have to go on, true, but when it comes to things like sexuality I think it gets people to wondering how it would all work, especially since Tamassran is a woman's role.


Some males can be Tamassrans.

A gay Qunari man isn't going to be satisfied by that, and neither are straight women. If the whole point is to be satisfied and relieve those sexual urges, then the person's sexuality should be catered to, otherwise they might as well just do it themselves and not go to the Tamassrans in the first place.


Masturbation seems like what the Tamassrans would proscribe under the Qun rather than provide the service themselves or instruct someone else to do it.

Also, Bull's depiction is personally biased, since he himself is bi, so he can be satisfied by just a woman. It would be the same if he were straight. HIS sexual needs are met by the female Tamassrans, and that is what he has experience with. It is not unreasonable for a gay male or straight female Inquisitor to want to ask, "Uh... what if you prefer men?"


Who says there are homosexual Qunari?

The Qun is not "progressive," as far as transexuals goes. The Tamassran attitude seems to be purely practical. They accept and adapt their intended roles for transexuals because they know they will get more out of them this way. Everyone else accepts it because the Tamassrans and the Qun say so.


And why would the Tamassrans go along with the transsexual's self-identification and bend the rules of the Qun when they can simply send them to reeducation and MAKE them think in line with their physical gender?

Sten wasn't looking at your genitals when he declared his amazement that you were a woman, he was looking at your sword arm. Women don't fight, but transexual men who are acknowledged by the Tamasrans and the Qun itself as men no doubt do.... which, I think, is what Iron Bull was trying to explain.


Wrong. He chastises Morrian, Leliana, and Wynne for fighting as well.

Theoretically, a transexual man trained as a warrior would have been greeted by Sten as a man and fellow warrior, because if the Tamassrans say this person is a man, and this person is doing a man's role, and presents as a man, then Sten certainly isn't going to question it. Why would he?


Because, why would your women wish to be men? That makes no sense to Sten.

All of his boxes are ticked. You are the one who insists they must use GENITALS AND ONLY GENITALS to determine gender, when it doesn't always work like that and there's no reason the Tamasrans wouldn't know this.


This is all your speculation. Logic dictates that a Tamassran will recognize a baby based on genitalia and record the new Qunari's existence with that information in his or her serial number.

How do you know what Standards (besides genitalia) the Tamasrans use to identify gender?


My point here was if the Tamassrans have a standard beyond genitalia, then it defeats the purpose of making the Qun accepting to transsexuals, because any transsexual to go before them will have to fulfill those standards first before being recognized as the gender they perceive themselves to be.

And seriously, a "shield bash?" Not only am I pretty sure Krem can (and has) taken those before, but there are plenty of biological men, fictional and real, I could name who probably couldn't and yet wouldn't be any less men for it. Shields hurt, yo.


And under your theory, the Tamassrans might not consider them men either regardless of what you think of them. There are scenes where Krem has failed to stand up to the Iron Bull's shield bash, earning a rebuke.

#187
Dai Grepher

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Your whole arguement gives me flashbacks to those guys who see my t-shirt or my cosplay and immediately have to quiz me on "nerd" trivia because I obviously can't REALLY be a nerd if I don't meet your standards. Standards that didn't exist before you needed to make sure I was really what I was claiming to be. I'm glad YOU aren't in charge of determining the course of my entire life...


But the Tamassrans do evaluate those in their care and assign them roles based on their perceived traits and if they meet or exceed the standards of those roles, right? Right. So how am I wrong for discussing what those standards are?

I figure the Tamassrans have a better way of knowing if someone is male or female then just "how many shield bashes can you take." Come on now.


The point being, if Krem does not meet the Tamassran's standard for a warrior, then a warrior Krem will not be under the Qun. Krem might then be assigned a female gender role.

You are the only one who thinks it goes like this. Physically ungifted males have other roles they are referred to, like the priesthood and such. They don't choose your job, THEN choose your gender. Doing it in that order would just be silly. You know if a child is a boy or girl (even a transexual boy or girl) before you know if that child is cut out to be a soldier or the like.


Nightscrawl isn't the only one who thinks it goes like that. If a Tamassran observes gender identity first, then the gender role is meaningless, because the Tamassran's choice will be based on what the child thinks he or she is in terms of gender. And if the child's traits do not meet the requirements for the gender they think they are, then what? The Tamassran will go by the child's talents, which might not line up with the child's gender identity.

I'm sure there are skilled artesenal jobs suitable for males under the Qun. Perhaps as carpenters, architects or shipwrights. The Tamassrans would know. They would find him something.


Assumptions on top of assumptions, all to explain what is most likely a complete lie by Hissrad.

Clarification: he says "This is why the Qun doesn't like women fighting."


Ah no, if Hissrad were telling the truth, he would have said this is why the Qun doesn't let women fight. Because those fighters aren't women, remember? They are real men, just as Krem is, according to Hissrad. Right? So the statement, "This is why the Qun doesn't like women fighting" makes no sense, because the Qun doesn't let women fight. How can they not like it unless they allow it? Well, they can't allow it because women don't fight. If you fight, you're a man. This is all according to your side's theory on what Sten believed. So in context of that, Hissrad's statements still conflict.

#188
DuskWanderer

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It's not worse than how Flemeth treated Morrigan.

"No little girl wants to hear about the Wilder men her mother took to her bed, using them till they were spent, then killing them. No little girl wants to be told that this is also expected of her, once she comes of age."

True. But Flemeth is hardly a paragon of moral virtue, like we're constantly being told the Qun is. 



#189
DuskWanderer

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It's quite simple, all of this arguing: BioWARE screwed up their own lore. They tried to portray the Qun as something amazing and ordered when compared to the chaotic South in DA2, but most people ended up seeing through it. 

 

Then they tried to capitalize on this transgender thing, probably because they thought it would give them word-of-mouth marketing and more sales, and it ended up blowing up in their face again. They put it in without thinking it through, and allowed their own personal biases on the matter, as Weekes admits, to influence the matter.


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#190
In Exile

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It's quite simple, all of this arguing: BioWARE screwed up their own lore. They tried to portray the Qun as something amazing and ordered when compared to the chaotic South in DA2, but most people ended up seeing through it. 

 

Then they tried to capitalize on this transgender thing, probably because they thought it would give them word-of-mouth marketing and more sales, and it ended up blowing up in their face again. They put it in without thinking it through, and allowed their own personal biases on the matter, as Weekes admits, to influence the matter.

 

I don't know what fantasy brought this on, but in every single game Bioware portrayed the Qun has a horridly repressive regime that has totally alien social values and operates on Blue and Orange morality. I understand that elementary formal logic can be a little challenging, but the Qun is not even particularly complex. It's just Troll logic and wonky Plantonic ideals. 

 

 

Ah no, if Hissrad were telling the truth, he would have said this is why the Qun doesn't let women fight. Because those fighters aren't women, remember? They are real men, just as Krem is, according to Hissrad. Right? So the statement, "This is why the Qun doesn't like women fighting" makes no sense, because the Qun doesn't let women fight. How can they not like it unless they allow it? Well, they can't allow it because women don't fight. If you fight, you're a man. This is all according to your side's theory on what Sten believed. So in context of that, Hissrad's statements still conflict.

 

I'm not going to engage with most of your nonsense. But this is particularly ridiculous: women do fight. They simply don't have a role that is dedicated to fighting. This is why Tallis can be in the Ben-Hassrath, and can fight, but is not a "fighter". The IB isn't a fighter either - he's a spy. This isn't particularly complicated. And just as Sten explains, women do fight if called on. As does any role. 


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#191
Dai Grepher

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I'm not going to engage with most of your nonsense. But this is particularly ridiculous: women do fight. They simply don't have a role that is dedicated to fighting. This is why Tallis can be in the Ben-Hassrath, and can fight, but is not a "fighter". The IB isn't a fighter either - he's a spy. This isn't particularly complicated. And just as Sten explains, women do fight if called on. As does any role.


The context of the discussion you aimlessly wandered into was in regard to women fighting as warriors. Bull made a comment about Cassandra, a warrior. So the Ben-Hassrath branch and the Tallis role have nothing to do with this. Why don't you read the discussions you are replying to before you reply to them? Furthermore, your "rebuttal" is absurd on its face. If this were about a Ben-Hassrath Tallis, why would the Qunari not like these women fighting as such? Is Bull saying the Qunari don't like women being Ben-Hassrath?

I'm always amazed at how consistently incorrect you are.

#192
DuskWanderer

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The context of the discussion you aimlessly wandered into was in regard to women fighting as warriors. Bull made a comment about Cassandra, a warrior. So the Ben-Hassrath branch and the Tallis role have nothing to do with this. Why don't you read the discussions you are replying to before you reply to them? Furthermore, your "rebuttal" is absurd on its face. If this were about a Ben-Hassrath Tallis, why would the Qunari not like these women fighting as such? Is Bull saying the Qunari don't like women being Ben-Hassrath?

I'm always amazed at how consistently incorrect you are.

You are? The poor logic is nothing new. 

 

As for the portrayal of the Qun, take a look at the portrayal of the Arishok in DA2, and look at the people opposing in Act 2. That's all the proof you need. Don't blame the fans for seeing through the devs's clumsy writing. 



#193
Qun00

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The Qunari don't use money, do they? The Tamassran services are likely free of charge, in which case that is a nice perk for those living under the Qun.

That said, I wonder how often it is allowed to seek for them. If a Qunari visits the sex!tamassrans everyday, it may be considered an addiction and then s/he will need to be reeducated.

#194
Hanako Ikezawa

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The Qunari don't use money, do they? The Tamassran services are likely free of charge, in which case that is a nice perk for those living under the Qun.

Unless you are one of the Tamassrans forced to be a sex slave for your entire life. 



#195
Qun00

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Unless you are one of the Tamassrans forced to be a sex slave for your entire life.


Forced? Not necessarily.

Although the Qunari lack the freedom of choice, most of them are fully commited to their role and have no desire to be anything else.

In other words, while I'd imagine there are plenty of tal-vashoth that used to be a sexual Tamassran, one shouldn't be quick to assume that those currently living as such are unwilling.

#196
Dean_the_Young

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Forced? Not necessarily.

Although the Qunari lack the freedom of choice, most of them are fully commited to their role and have no desire to be anything else.

In other words, while I'd imagine there are plenty of tal-vashoth that used to be a sexual Tamassran, one shouldn't be quick to assume that those currently living as such are unwilling.

 

That would be 'unsuccessfully forced', not 'not forced.' It's the same as how 'escaped slave' doesn't mean 'not enslaved.'

 

If you are chosen to be a sex worker, you will be forced to be a sex worker, regardless of your willingness. Whether you are able and inclined to escape are entirely separate questions, neither of which meaning that a negative implies willingness.



#197
Iakus

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Forced? Not necessarily.

Although the Qunari lack the freedom of choice, most of them are fully commited to their role and have no desire to be anything else.

In other words, while I'd imagine there are plenty of tal-vashoth that used to be a sexual Tamassran, one shouldn't be quick to assume that those currently living as such are unwilling.

They never knew any other life



#198
Qun00

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They never knew any other life


Regardless, they are indeed willing. It was being argued that they're not.

#199
Hanako Ikezawa

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Regardless, they are indeed willing. It was being argued that they're not.

So people born into slavery aren't slaves because since they know no other way they are willing? 



#200
Qun00

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So people born into slavery aren't slaves because since they know no other way they are willing?


Oh, no doubt about that. Everyone under the Qun is a slave.

What I do question is the notion that these tamassrans are suffering or that they don't want to live that way. That's just the player projecting the own views on them.

Of course, there are those who do hate their role, but I don't imagine they are the majority. Anyone who believes otherwise is understimating the Qun's indoctrination.