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[Aliceeverafter]

Anyone any idea why it is the chantry (templars) that polices magic and not just some other dedicated secular force? It's not like reciting the chant of light at a blood mage subdues them. Templar powers come from being lyrium junkies, nothing religious about that.
Is this just a power thing and they happened to have the financial and political clout to set up the physical circles and bank roll the templar order?
The chantry says magic shall never rule over man or something along those lines, so does this suggest magic is a key part of religion that needs controlling or is magic in direct opposition to religion (and by implication seen as 'unnatural')?
Following on from that, why are the circle rules so harsh (loss of inheritance, status, physical freedom, cut off from family etc)? Seems needlessly excessive.
Questions, questions!

[Xilizhra]

Is this just a power thing and they happened to have the financial and political clout to set up the physical circles and bank roll the templar order?

It's basically that, yes. This tells some of it.

[Taki17]

After the first blight, Tevinter was falling apart and andrastianism was spreading due to Andraste's campaign. The first Inquisition was formed by hardliner andrastians and they hunted evil mages and protected people from harmful magic. Later on, they allied with the fledgeling Chantry and signed the nevarran accord, which created the Circles.

 

The Chantry wanted control over the mages for various reasons:

- They did not wanted a new Tevinter. If regulation of mages were left to every individual country, there's bound to be some mage at some point who would've gained considerable power.

- Retribution against all mages for the crimes of the tevinter mages (just like how all the germans were punished collectively after WW2)

- Having magic for themselves - by having the circles under the Chantry and not under the monarch of every country, the Chantry is able to consolidate its own power and influence

[thesuperdarkone2]

It's basically that, yes. This tells some of it.

Not to mention that WOT outright says that the most important part of the Chantry's doctrine is the belief that magic is an inherently corrupt part of the world.

 

 

When the most important doctrine is "magic is evil", it's no wonder why things got as bad as they did.

[Tidus]

The Seekers of old set up the Circles not the Chantry.The Chantry appointed Templars to watch and protect the mages the Seekers was to govern the Templars and investigate  any problems.

 

Through teaching of hate toward mages the common folk feared mages now,time rolls on. Templars  begin to abuse their power by beating,murdering,raping and making tranquil out of any mage they deem "dangerous"  or they didn't like. The Seekers investigate and side with the Templars by reporting to the Divine the mages was at fault.Problem solved and in some cases the Seekers crushed the problem that cause the death of innocent mages--Cassandra mentions a lot of this and the rest can be found in "Asunder".

 

BTW..The self-righteous Chantry also teaches hate against the Elves..

 

Between Nobles and the Chantry no wonder   there's so much hate and fear in Thedas.

[straykat]

Why indeed..

 

An anti-slavery movement basically got snuffed out internally by an entirely different group...namely the inquisition. Who weren't even Andrastian at first necessarily. Just rabidly anti-Tevinter. They shared a goal, but it's not the same thing.

[Aliceeverafter]

Great replies, thanks all - hadn't seen that codex on the history of the circles. Explains a lot.

[Gervaise]

Remember even that codex is the Chantry's spin on events.    They demonized the first Inquisition after the event, probably so they would seem a better alternative but also because apparently the first Inquisition treated everyone alike, noble and commoner.     They didn't simply go after mages.    They went after mages who misused magic and also dealt with any dangerous cults, demons and abominations terrorising the countryside.   The last of their Inquisitors was a mage, so it is clear that their group was not prejudiced against mages.  

 

The Chantry has the support of the nobles because it reinforces the status quo.   Nobles without magic would not want peasant mages challenging their rule, so they ensured they were locked up.   It is noticeable that mage children of nobles get considerably better treatment in the Circles.   They are allowed to keep in contact with their families, have visits, even be allowed out, because this is at the "discretion" of the First Enchanter and you can guess what is most likely to influence that decision.  All that impacts on noble mages is that they aren't allowed to inherit land or be in positions of power.   Vivienne's experience of the Circle was much better than the majority of low born mages because she ensured she drew the attention of a powerful noble who could influence things in her favour.    Anders' and Ella's experience show more what it was like for the majority of peasant mages.

 

It would seem that the proto Templars were dabbling with the use of lyrium around the time that the old Inquisition was absorbed into the Chantry.   The Chantry quickly discovered that encouraging the use of lyrium gave them a useful means of control over those soldiers in case they should get out of line.     Then they ensured their support even more by recruiting Templars on the basis of their religious fervour rather than their moral fibre.    Unfortunately for Divine Justinia this backfired on her when she started messing with the core belief of the Chantry that "Magic is a corrupting influence in the world" and this justifies locking up mages and making them tranquil if they are perceived a risk.   She authorised a highly dangerous magical experiment outside of Templar control (which is actually one of the only real reasons you can justify having them - to oversee just such experiments that can go horribly wrong, which this one did) and then aided an abetted the mages in the events at the White Spire.   When Seeker Lambert realised this, he called her out on it and then withdrew the order from Chantry control until such time as the heretic Divine was removed from power.   He was prejudiced against mages but then he had spent several years in Tevinter and then was double crossed by the Black Divine.   Still over the years the Chantry had essentially used the Templars order as their personal police force and kept them under control through their addiction. Not all Templars were fundamentalist zealots, some were just genuinely devout people who thought they were serving their faith because of what they are been taught to believe.   Essentially the Chantry made the Templars what they were and in some ways they were just as much victims of the organisation as the mages were.  

[Qis]

It is because of the power of FAITH, when you say "it is God's will", everyone will just accept it because peoples are simple minded.

 

Secularism only comes after reasoning movement, sparked by Muslim philosopher Ibn Rushd (Averroes), inspire Protestantism to opposed the mainstream religion that is Roman Catholic that rule Europe. Before that everything the Church say is the "will of God" and cannot be challenged, or else you will be trialed in Inquisition

 

So unless there is such movement in Thedas, the only influence as a method of control is religious organization, The Chantry.

[In Exile]

Anyone any idea why it is the chantry (templars) that polices magic and not just some other dedicated secular force? It's not like reciting the chant of light at a blood mage subdues them. Templar powers come from being lyrium junkies, nothing religious about that.
Is this just a power thing and they happened to have the financial and political clout to set up the physical circles and bank roll the templar order?
The chantry says magic shall never rule over man or something along those lines, so does this suggest magic is a key part of religion that needs controlling or is magic in direct opposition to religion (and by implication seen as 'unnatural')?
Following on from that, why are the circle rules so harsh (loss of inheritance, status, physical freedom, cut off from family etc)? Seems needlessly excessive.
Questions, questions!

 

Part of it is that the Circles are transnational organizations based on, effectively, annexed land. The Chantry (and the Inquisition and Seekers before it) were all transnational organizations basically flaunting sovereign local jurisdiction. It was natural that these groups would form some kind of regulator, though not necessarily the awful institution they became. 

[straykat]

It is because of the power of FAITH, when you say "it is God's will", everyone will just accept it because peoples are simple minded.

 

Secularism only comes after reasoning movement, sparked by Muslim philosopher Ibn Rushd (Averroes), inspire Protestantism to opposed the mainstream religion that is Roman Catholic that rule Europe. Before that everything the Church say is the "will of God" and cannot be challenged, or else you will be trialed in Inquisition

 

So unless there is such movement in Thedas, the only influence as a method of control is religious organization, The Chantry.

 

Faith in and of itself doesn't mean much. It's what people put faith in that matters. i don't see the Chantry even caring who Andraste was sometimes. But that doesn't take away from people who actually have faith in what she said.

 

Also, putting reason on a pedestal sparked the French Revolution. It wasn't the great thing you make it out to be. Priests disemboweled, women raped in public, children killed, thousands of heads rolling. Yay.

[Squinterific]

Basically because the Chantry and the Inquisition were the first institutions to rise to the occasion and address the issue of containing magic. They created the Circles. Also because of a mage's affinity for attracting demons and performing heresy with dark powers (necromancy, blood magic, etc), the Chantry established itself as the natural enemy of such things.

[Qis]

Faith in and of itself doesn't mean much. It's what people put faith in that matters. i don't see the Chantry even caring who Andraste was sometimes. But that doesn't take away from people who actually have faith in what she said.

 

That's my point, religious organizations might not care about what they're preaching about, but what peoples will believe matters to them, that's how they gain control in politics...and terrorism to say about it...what would make a person joined terrorist group if not having faith in what those terrorists imams/mullahs say? It is an old tactic repeated since medieval era, like Crusade..kill infidels to buy yourself heaven...only those who have faith in such doctrine will join in...the same in politic, the said politicians are a good religious person who is supporting so called religious callings on things, being propagate such in campaigns to buy voters...

 

 

Also, putting reason on a pedestal sparked the French Revolution. It wasn't the great thing you make it out to be. Priests disemboweled, women raped in public, children killed, thousands of heads rolling. Yay.

 

French Revolution is nothing to do with spark of reasoning movement in the west, it just that peoples are being manipulated to hate the royals and then rebelled, it have nothing to do with being "illuminated" whatsoever, but propagated as such.

[fdrty]

The thing is Magic in DA's world is a crucial part of most religions, from the elven pantheon to Andraste to the Old Gods.

 

So it stands to say that these religions would have something to say on the matter. Andraste liberated the south from the brutal regime of Tevinter who regularly displayed the very worst of what magic can be. So the south is going to follow her teachings - 'magic is to serve man, never to rule over him'

 

The chantry is one of the more democratic institutions and it does a lot of good so it may be the best option for policing the mages.

 

In a world where atheism isn't as big as ours, there isn't going to be a strong desire for secularism.

[Joseph Warrick]

Tevinter unleashed the blight. Andraste launched a campaign to destroy Tevinter, supposedly because the Maker told her. The religion based off her holds these events as foundational, so the link of this religion to magic and mages is very strong.

[straykat]

Tevinter unleashed the blight. Andraste launched a campaign to destroy Tevinter, supposedly because the Maker told her. The religion based off her holds these events as foundational, so the link of this religion to magic and mages is very strong.

 

This is true, and I think it's only natural for them to expand on it. It's just that I think they lost sight of her also being the leader of a slave rebellion.

 

There's a line in DAA where you can tell Anders that you'd think Andraste would be confused by modern events. Put me in that camp.