Questa discussione ha avuto 23 risposte

[HikariWS]

Avernus is that mage we meet at Soldier's Peak.

I've just read his note, and it's very interesting. They seem to have based the idea of his work on the same way some medicine and "serum" are made out of poisons.

It'd be really great if The Joining ritual could be refined, and Grey Wardens could acquire the power contained in darkspawn blood without getting poisoned. And they even added the tip that the answer could be at the Black City, where the darkspawn were created.

Have any word been said about this after DAO was finished? In-game in DA2 or DAI or by Bioware representatives?

I see that we choose to either repulse Avernus's work and kill him to help that demon, or leave him alive but he'd die soon enough.

Unfortunately I let him alive when I played with my rogue, then I had to free the demon with my mage, but if it wasn't for this metagame my mage for sure would be willing to follow his work. My mage is young still, imagine if after The Blight he could go work with Avernus and learn from him during his short lasting life, all he had worked for all these years, and follow that, having the power to contain the taint yet in his yought and be almost immortal.

It'd be really great to have a Dragon Age game happening centures after the events of DAO, and meet again my mage Warden, be it to find his discoverings and benefit from it, even reach the Black City, or be it to fight the most powerful blood mage of all ages to stop him from repeating the mistakes of the Tevinter archons.

[Zero]

In DA2 is revealed that he is working with Warden-Commander (that can be our character), and it seems the First Warden in Weishaupt became interested in his work as well. If Avernus survives the events of DA:O, the First Warden will avail his work officially. Also, the notes the Grey Wardens recover from the Architect lair in Awakening became an asset to his investigations. The results, however, depends on your decisions in the DLC. If you allow him to continue his work "ethically", then his research show little success. If you let him continue without restrictions, is investigation became really successful. 

 

However, he will also discover some "alarming implications" that aren't revealed in game. You can read the codex here:

 

http://dragonage.wik..._Warden_Letters

 

Also, is implied in Dragon Age: Inquisition that his ability to use blood magic on the Taint to extend his life for 200 or more years had something to do with a possibly cure to the Calling, as revealed by either Leliana, Morrigan or Alistair.

 

Courtesy of FluffyNinjaLlama:

 

[HikariWS]

Interesting.

Is there a tool to edit or at least view the worldstate on a DAO save? I know I let him live, but don't remember if I forced him to work ethically.

[Zero]

To make that decision count on Dragon Age: Inquisition? You can edit that in the Keep.

 

On Dragon Age 2? I have no idea.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Avernus is using shipments of persons for his experimentations if he was allowed to continue research unethically....if that is true than it means that the HoF is a criminal supporter of slavery far ,far worse than Logahin

[Zero]

Yeah. Not only potentially the HoF, but also the First Warden (and also, this gives me an idea of why the Wardens did not expelled the HoF —and Alistair or Loghain— from the Order if you did the Dark Ritual —something tells me the First Warden is interested in the idea of surviving the killing of an Archdemon). Is a player decision only, though, thanks the Maker. So, that this happen or don't happen is entirely up to you, as that quest only happens in world states where you actually played Warden's Keep. If you use the premade world states of DA2, or played the Orlesian Warden-Commander in Awakening, this mission (in any of its variants) and some others, unrelated to this one, did not happen in DA2.

 

I'm my case, I chose Avernus to do ethical research in my canon world state. I'm interested in what his experiments can do, but was not thrilled by the idea of the guy killing other Grey Wardens.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Science isn't concerned with irrational morality.

 

I always wondered what exactly ethical constraint meant here so im confused when it comes to chosing that option as it isn't explained very well.

[Saburau]

I presumed it meant Avernus not using torture for his “experiments”, thoug my Warden would have ruled out the demon summoning as well.

[Deadly dwarf]

Science isn't concerned with irrational morality.

 

I always wondered what exactly ethical constraint meant here so im confused when it comes to chosing that option as it isn't explained very well.

 

The implication is that Avernus is experimenting on unwilling human subjects.  Just look at the dead bodies in cages in Avernus' lab...

 

Exactly what do you mean by "irrational morality"?  In the modern world, testing can be done on humans, but it must be done within certain ethical restraints and the those being tested must be willing subjects.  (Think of people with incurable diseases volunteering to be part of a drug test.)  Scientists are much freer with animal subjects, but even that is frequently challenged by various groups.

[TheKomandorShepard]

The implication is that Avernus is experimenting on unwilling human subjects.  Just look at the dead bodies in cages in Avernus' lab...

 

Exactly what do you mean by "irrational morality"?  In the modern world, testing can be done on humans, but it must be done within certain ethical restraints and the those being tested must be willing subjects.  (Think of people with incurable diseases volunteering to be part of a drug test.)  Scientists are much freer with animal subjects, but even that is frequently challenged by various groups.

I know that he was experimenting on others but what exactly allowing Avernus to work under ethical restraints means is never explained.From his letter we have a clue that he experiments on humans but what criteria are applied to subjects criminals or maybe grey warden near calling.It isn't exactly said under restraint of what ethics Avernus will do his research.

 

Those are unnecessary restraints that are slowing down progress, we could simply use convicts at least they would be useful.Unfortunately with level of irrational attitudes in western societies it would never pass.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Science isn't concerned with irrational morality.

 

 

Lol irrational morality?

What Avernus did is against the law since he enslaved and tortured people.

[Akiza]

Yeah. Not only potentially the HoF, but also the First Warden (and also, this gives me an idea of why the Wardens did not expelled the HoF —and Alistair or Loghain— from the Order if you did the Dark Ritual —something tells me the First Warden is interested in the idea of surviving the killing of an Archdemon)

I don't think the first warden knows anything some suspicion but nothing more he only talk to some wardens to  investigate.

Oh but my HoF could tell him everything and put Morrigan in more greater troubles but Bioware did not allowed that to happen because they have to protect her.

[TheKomandorShepard]

 

Lol irrational morality?

What Avernus did is against the law since he enslaved and tortured people.

 

Yep, i don't see a restictions based on emotions here, or in science overall.

Hardly, against the law grey wardens were kicked out of Ferelden by then so not a problem. If you are talking about current situation , people Avernus is experimenting on may simply be convicts.Grey wardens also have special treatment when it comes to a law.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Yep, i don't see a restictions based on emotions here, or in science overall.

Hardly, against the law grey wardens were kicked out of Ferelden by then so not a problem. If you are talking about current situation , people Avernus is experimenting on may simply be convicts.Grey wardens also have special treatment when it comes to a law.

Grey wardens must respect the law of the nation they are in what Avernus did if he is using  people is illegal in Ferelden.

I'm not sure what kind of subjects he was using if blighted critters ,darkspawns or persons if the latter  then is illegal.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Grey wardens must respect the law of the nation they are in what Avernus did if he is using  people is illegal in Ferelden.

I'm not sure what kind of subjects he was using if blighted critters ,darkspawns or persons if the latter  then is illegal.

You are assuming that everyone has equal rights in the Ferelden, if he was using convicts or criminals I heavily doubt it is illegal, Thedas has no such thing as human rights.Plus as i said, law is very loose when it comes to grey wardens as they are allowed to dabble in blood magic, and general rule is just don't ****** off people in charge, for an example if you fail pickpocketing Duncan just pardons you.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

You are assuming that everyone has equal rights in the Ferelden, if he was using convicts or criminals I heavily doubt it is illegal, Thedas has no such thing as human rights.Plus as i said, law is very loose when it comes to grey wardens as they are allowed to dabble in blood magic, and general rule is just don't ****** off people in charge, for an example if you fail pickpocketing Duncan just pardons you.

Is illegal because is a form of slavery which is illegal the  law is very clear and is applied to everyone GW included.

[Zero]

I don't think the first warden knows anything some suspicion but nothing more he only talk to some wardens to  investigate.

Oh but my HoF could tell him everything and put Morrigan in more greater troubles but Bioware did not allowed that to happen because they have to protect her.

 

He knows something, but we don't know how much he knows. If the HoF make the Ultimate Sacrifice, the First Warden sends the orlesian Warden-Commander to search for Morrigan (that's the reason the orlesian Warden is searching for her in Witch Hunt), because he is interested in her participation in the Fifth Blight, meaning he want information.

 

An alive HoF can provide that information, and while the epilogue of DAO says that (if you chose to go to Weisshaupt after the Blight):

 

 

“The Grey Wardens welcomed their hero back into the fold--even if the suspicions of those who wondered how <HoF's name> managed to survive were sometimes given quiet voice.”

 

The First Warden is willing to work with the HoF during Awakening and (potentially) DA2, meaning he was not one of those Grey Wardens that were mad because the HoF survived the Blight. And this means the guy is plotting something.

 

 

for an example if you fail pickpocketing Duncan just pardons you.

 

He even says "yeah, I know you must practice. Just don't get caught" xD

[TheKomandorShepard]

Is illegal because is a form of slavery which is illegal the  law is very clear and is applied to everyone GW included.

By your logic it is illegal to send people to prison because it is form of "slavery".Plus, as i said you still think that Ferelden laws are based on our modern laws and there are human rights.Not to mention i debunked your statement, proving that grey wardens are allowed to follow law loosely.

[Illegitimus]

By your logic it is illegal to send people to prison because it is form of "slavery".Plus, as i said you still think that Ferelden laws are based on our modern laws and there are human rights.Not to mention i debunked your statement, proving that grey wardens are allowed to follow law loosely.

 

Ferelden does actually have the nascent concept of "human rights".  That is after all, why the banns react so negatively to Loghain's power grab, because "they aren't Orlesian lickspittles".  And it's why slavery is illegal there in the first place.  Your objection might be valid if the story was set in Tevinter or Orlais.  In Ferelden, not so much. 

 

All men are the Work of our Maker's Hands

From the lowest slaves 

To the highest kings

Those who bring harm

Without provocation to the least of His children

Are hated and accursed by the Maker. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Ferelden does actually have the nascent concept of "human rights".  That is after all, why the banns react so negatively to Loghain's power grab, because "they aren't Orlesian lickspittles".  And it's why slavery is illegal there in the first place.  Your objection might be valid if the story was set in Tevinter or Orlais.  In Ferelden, not so much. 

 

All men are the Work of our Maker's Hands

From the lowest slaves 

To the highest kings

Those who bring harm

Without provocation to the least of His children

Are hated and accursed by the Maker. 

Ferelden is somewhat liberal when compared to rest of Thedas, but it hardly has equal rights for everyone.Penalty for crimes in Ferelden are often violent and killing in defense of elf is a crime.Conducting experiments on convicts would be grey area in that case.For an example, Howe torture doesn't seem to be an issue rather simply who he was torturing.

 

This is chantry view on that, plus i already found loophole as criminal did provoke punishment.

[Saburau]

Whatever the legal stance on torture (and I seem to remember Commander Harwen Raleigh in Leliana's Song having a very poor reputation), there's still Avernus' practice of demon summoning. Whether in defence of the Wardens or not, it's still taboo.

[Illegitimus]

Ferelden is somewhat liberal when compared to rest of Thedas, but it hardly has equal rights for everyone.

 

It doesn't have to have equal rights for everyone to not approve of torturing experimental subjects to death.  Human rights doesn't automatically mean equal rights.  And yeah a lot of Ferelden humans would allow it as long as the subjects were just elves.  But technically it would be illegal even then.  

[TheKomandorShepard]

Whatever the legal stance on torture (and I seem to remember Commander Harwen Raleigh in Leliana's Song having a very poor reputation), there's still Avernus' practice of demon summoning. Whether in defence of the Wardens or not, it's still taboo.

Leliana Song is just a story, real events don't match actual Leliana story as it took place in Ferelden instead Orlais.Yeah, that was however 200 years ago, where he took part in rebelion what was illegal anyway.

 

 

It doesn't have to have equal rights for everyone to not approve of torturing experimental subjects to death.  Human rights doesn't automatically mean equal rights.  And yeah a lot of Ferelden humans would allow it as long as the subjects were just elves.  But technically it would be illegal even then.  

As i said penalties in Ferelden tend to brutal and violent anyway, not to mention as i said nobles weren't concered with Howe torturing rather than people he was torturing.Elves are second class citizens not convicted criminals, they have less rights but are still subject to the law.Somehow i doubt that Ferelden has law establishing as how you need to treat criminals. 

[German Soldier]

 

 

 

The First Warden is willing to work with the HoF during Awakening and (potentially) DA2, meaning he was not one of those Grey Wardens that were mad because the HoF survived the Blight. And this means the guy is plotting something.

 

 

 

The first warden know nothing of the survival of the archdemon soul that he had some suspicion doesn't mean he figured out what Flemeth and Morrigan were scheming.Had he knew I guess he will likely send some GW to kill Morrigan and steal the child since with suspicion alone he was willing to unleash a Warden Commander on her.