195 réponses à ce sujet

[manyfistss]

khawaja07 wrote...

very happy about it but they could just add a bit more rpg elements into it.

It's already jammed pack with rpg elements, customizing your armor, building your character, character interaction and character development, loot system...etc. Only bit more rpg element needs to be going into ME2 is customizing your squad mates the same way you customize your self. 

[bensmith91]

because dragon age came out

[EchoTango]

PingoBlack wrote...

EchoTango wrote...

These aren't spamming efforts.  It's not the same 3 people over and over.  People buy it, play it, dislike it, find the forum, and post about it.

This is called a backlash.  It happens.

I'll register my copy in few hours, when it unlocks for me on Steam. When will you?

When I remember to.  I surf this forum when I'm bored or sitting down at home for a moment.  Never really crosses my mind.  Don't worry your little passive-aggressive emoticon about it, I have a legitimate copy.

[Mezinger]

Eshaye wrote...

imperialus1 wrote...

Ok, I 'm enough of a nerd that I actually play pen and paper RPG's and honestly, massive amounts of loot, and rediculous numbers of skills do not an RPG make.

Take Shadowrun for example.  Chances are the armour that your PC starts with, will be the armour that he ends the campaign wearing.  He might go through 4 or 5 different guns over the course of a campaign.  If he's mundane, he'll likely add a bit of cyberware, but that's a major investment that'll only come about a handful of times.  Looting is not only a waste of effort, but will likely slow you down long enough for corpsec to get a trace on your position and bring in a high threat response team, turning you and your buddies into a small red paste.

Or else look at any version of D&D before 3rd edition.  There were No Skills!  Late 2nd edition had a few Non Weapon Proficiancies, but that was it, and this was the granddaddy of all RPG's.  Even Baulders Gate (remember Bioware's first game) only had weapon related skills.

Well done!! And exactly right, RPGs are NOT about skill developing and managing armor, that's just the progression system that really only gets tweaked over time but not really changed. Personally in ME1 I did not think it fit with the game at all. 

Mass Effect is supposed to be a cinematic story that you are part of. If that succeeds, I'm not sure I'll ever understand what RPG elements are missing.... Basically it seems to be the crap we need to micro manage but don't even actually need. A lot of people say they miss having to armor their companions and themselves, I found that totally took me out of the experience by contrast, I felt I should be keeping the same armor as on the box... Why? Because when I watch a movie or if we really were these people, you'd have ONE maybe two sets of armor and that's it!! Having to loot and wear different armor is unrealistic.

IMO anyway

What? I'm a PNP RPGer as well and this is just so wrong... comparing a modern RPG system (CRPG or PNP) to a class and level system from the 80's? Huh? Has game (rules/mechanics) design gone no where in the last  (nearly 30 dear god years)... ? It has by the way most systems are now hybrids incorporating point & buy (skills) aspects.

Check out Green Ronin Dragon Age PNP RPG if you want to see where modern PNP game design is at.

Sure Shadowrun had less loot, so did Twilight 2000 as it was post WWIII setting and loot was harder to come by, doesn't some how mean getting a bigger sword to kill a bigger monster is no longer part of the RPG genre.  (I mean come on it's a cliche for a reason).

And for everyone saying the ME1 wasn't hard enough, stats didn't matter, team composition didn't matter, just click and auto-combat button etc.... I don't agree, go back and play it again on the hardest unlocked setting (insanity? nightmare? can't remember what it was called) with a 1st level character and it is actually quite challenging. 

Back to the original question... why did they do it... as someone else said most certainly for the cheese aka $'s... or perhaps it was a sad accident in a tragic story of trying to make everyone happy... and ultimately displeasing the old school... dunno.

[WhiteEclipse]

I posted a long time ago on the old forums that ME was not really a role-playing game. It was an action-adventure game with some light rpg character mechanics. I said this mainly because only 3 decisions in the game really had an effect on the game world (and they were close to the end and at the end).



Now it seems, based upon reviews and this forum (don't have my copy yet), Bioware fixed that problem. Decisions (even from the first game) effect the world. But they stripped the character building elements from the game.

[QueueMun]

EDIT @ WhiteEclipse
You can make serious eff-ups by saying the wrong thing in a lot of conversations.

Well, I just finished. Loved it. I want to fly to Bioware HQ and give the devs, artists and designers a big big hug. Honestly, there's a lot more to look forward to in ME2 compared to ME1. See with Dragon Age and Mass Effect, I didn't pull two all nighters to finish them nor did I get immersed in the beauty and dynamism of the Universe(s) when I did with ME2. I'd just tell people (whiners) to remember what RPG stands for: Role Playing Game, not: Collect Loot Game. You're meant to be in a role where you interact or make decisions that will directly create or alter an outcome. Firing a gun (in this situation) is more of an RPG element than items are.

Fun Facts:
-The cinematic scenes are a lot more intense with the inclusion of Paragon / Renegade 'actions' and you do feel more and more like you're Shepard. This is a bare necessity of an RPG imo.
-The Universe itself shows you a lot more 'dark side' compared to the original clean worlds (Citadel). I love Omega.
-Not one of the characters annoyed me. Which is saying a lot. Most of them are in-fact the best of the best badass.
-I personally think it's an RPG with Shooter elements. (Or an RPSG)
-You'll find that during battles, even though it seems as if you have a lacking amount of skills, the lessened cooltimes compared to ME1 make power spamming a breeze. Plus trying to curve Biotics is fun
-Weapons are shared across all characters - compared to ME1 where you'd have to have individual weapons and armor for each ally (made me never use certain characters); you no longer have to worry about that crap. You know that if you want to try something new and take Jack over Miranda, then cool, you don't have to worry about her armor or weapon being weak poo.
-I liked collecting research and probing minerals. Felt... Escape Velocity.

Modifié par QueueMun, 28 janvier 2010 - 03:36 .

[Mister Mage]

I think if people just clarified and talked about what they wanted rather than using really big and horrendously outdated classification terms that apply to a million different things and have a million separate idiotic personal definitions, we'd all do a bit better.



For example. Instead of saying "add more RPG", you can just say "I am a genre fanatic that requires a Fallout 2-type game. Make that." So much better.

[RetrOldSchool]

IMO a lot of the leveling in ME1 was pretty boring. You added some points in weapon efficiency to add som extra damage and better aiming, but apart from that you didnt do much, except when getting enough points to unlock an ability.



The loot system was tedious, I hardly ever felt like "hell yeah, more loot", it was more just a "ok..." and then I didnt pay much attention until I was warned that I was getting close to the limit and then I would have to go through the tedious process of converting items to omnigel.



The items didnt do a whole lot to the gameplay. It wasn't like in DA:O where you equip armor, boots, gloves, rings, belts, helmets etc and they can have a lot of different added effects to both stats, damage and resistance.



That was never the case with ME1. I played it on hard and the only thing I really focused on equipment wise was having good shields, apart from that there was no reason to really care.



The same with build. In DA:O you can focus a lot on how you build your PC; that was never the case with ME1. Sure you could choose to spend extra ponits in Shotgun but it wasnt very interesting.



What caught me in ME was the story, the atmosphere, the characters and the cinematic feeling. The gameplay was nice, though the combat needed some improvement and shops were pretty much unimportant.



IMO a lot of the complaints I read is making out certain RPG elements in ME1 more than they were. Neither loot nor equipment were very well implemented in ME1 and I dont think a lot of people who loved ME1 wouldve hated it if wouldve been the ME2 system instead. Im not sure about the leveling yet, since my pre order hasnt arrived, but since ME1 wasnt very "build"-focused I cant see much reason to feel the new version is a huge step backwards.

[II Hunt3r II]

Mister Mage wrote...

I think if people just clarified and talked about what they wanted rather than using really big and horrendously outdated classification terms that apply to a million different things and have a million separate idiotic personal definitions, we'd all do a bit better.

For example. Instead of saying "add more RPG", you can just say "I am a genre fanatic that requires a Fallout 2-type game. Make that." So much better.

Alright, here we go:

-Bring back weapon cooldown. Don't make it as extreme as ME1. Keep the thermal clip system, this way, players can choose to either have their weapon cooldown or "reload" to keep shooting.

-Allow the player to make minor upgrades to weapons. For example, let the player upgrade his weapon's heat sink so that it cools down faster/can fire more rounds before needing to be replaced.

-Bring back loot.

-Let there be weapons and armor that the player can buy/find. Make them fairly expensive, and/or hard to find in the environment. The player should only be able to change the armor his character is wearing.

-Keep the armor 'upgrade' system like it is now. I like it.

-And keep the ammo types on the power wheel. I love it.

How's that?

Modifié par II Hunt3r II, 28 janvier 2010 - 03:45 .

[TheLoyalist]

Kquark wrote...

I do not like or play shooter type games, Mass Effect KOTOR and Drage Age are RPG games first and shooters second. ME and the others had deeper character development and much better story lines. in ME 2 its seems the story is just a reason to get into another fight. I will continue to play it and maybe things will improve.

It is a great looking game and if you like shooters  I am sure you will enjoy it

Have you even played ME2 yet? How was ME more of an RPG than ME2?

ME2 offers more weapon variety, more options to personalize your character through armor customazation that extends to the very color of your armor, research that lets you discover new upgrades for each individual of your squad, squadmates that arent copys of each other on the battlefield and that fight according to their skills and personalities, the different classes are now more specialized(I actually want to try them all now) the vanguard is now the get up in your face bada** that he was meant to be, the infiltrator is now the stealthy assassin that he most definitely wasnt in ME.

Lets see the dialouge system is back in full force and with the addition of the interupts it cant get much better. The galaxy map is now fun, I love actually moving the normandy around, stoping to buy fuel and probes and the planet scaning is a nice little diversion it actually feels like your exploring the galaxy this time around as opposed to just pointing and clicking. The codex makes a return in all its informative glory.

[Bigeyez]

abadomen wrote...

Ryuuichi009 wrote...

RPG elements?

I'm not being sarcastic or anything but that seems to be the root of the issue. All of you guys seem to have different thoughts on what exactly RPG elements are.

To me RPG = your character build determining his/her prowess in battle. So would ME2 be an rpg to me?

Build?

Well that depends...do you mean a pre-built build...or a build you improve?

ME2 has very few skills to choose from.

ME1 was on the lite side of the RPG spectrum...ME2 is even more lite.

I am still enjoying the game...but I agree with those complaining about the RPG-element change(subtraction) found in ME2.

If you enjoy shooters and lite-rpg elements then you'll enjoy the game.

Does the number of skills really matter when most of those skills were pointless pre-reqs you HAD to put points into in order to get the stuff you really wanted...I think not. If anything that impedes choice more then it grants choice.

Cutting out the useless skills is a step forward in my book. Now I can actually go straight in the meat of what I want and decide which skills, THAT MATTER, I want to improve. Then add to that evolving mechanics for me and my squad and the skill system ends up being much deeper then it was in ME 1.

[Asenkah]

ME2 is still definately an RPG. You just get moments where it feels less like one due to odd design choices. Just because we lost lots of skills that had little to no effect I don't think is a big deal. The choices I make now matter as they cost more per upgrade and I can't always have a new rank at ech level up so I have to plan accordingly. ME was more of a mindless point dump exercise.



The one I cannot understand is the Mission Complete screens. This makes it feel like a shooter, platformer, (insert other non-rpg genre here). It breaks up the flow of the game and kills the exploration. I can see trying to reduce the amount of time slogging around places but it was especially frustrating on Omega since you get kicked back to the Normandy a couple of times while still having more missions to complete. Wish it wasn't added, but I can deal.



The other change is the limited access to change and adjust equipment. This also is somewhat related to the odd mission structure or if you happen to stumble across some lockers that magically have your stuff in it. Though you could also say I could magically carry around 150 pieces of crap in the 1st one. I dunno, I just miss the gun mods I could change based on enemies I had to deal with.



However I can still understand where some people come from in that they would prefer a more stat driven game as RPGs traditionally use character skills over the users. This one I'm torn on since my wife sucks at shooters and it was a chore just to get her to try ME despite her love of KoTOR. Also, I really wish it was stat driven for the decryption mini-game (scrolling text one). I hate this mechanic, and while neat visually and conceptually its frustrating and I feel really sorry for folks that are color blind as the text patterns of some are not distinct enough from one another.



Woah, sorry for the length.

[vashts1985]

Kquark wrote...

I do not like or play shooter type games, Mass Effect KOTOR and Drage Age are RPG games first and shooters second. ME and the others had deeper character development and much better story lines. in ME 2 its seems the story is just a reason to get into another fight. I will continue to play it and maybe things will improve.

It is a great looking game and if you like shooters  I am sure you will enjoy it

from a shooters perspective, they have done very well with the combat engin in this game. in ME1 you just kept gaining skill, and before long it was no longer like you were fighting enemy's, but playing duck hunt in space.
bioware did not just change the mechanics of ME combat in this game without reason. as a gamer that enjoys all types of games, i implore you to give the system a chance. as soon as you get into it is a ton of fun, and its great that it runs tandem to such an epic story and setting.

[imperialus1]

Mezinger wrote...
What? I'm a PNP RPGer as well and this is just so wrong... comparing a modern RPG system (CRPG or PNP) to a class and level system from the 80's? Huh? Has game (rules/mechanics) design gone no where in the last  (nearly 30 dear god years)... ? It has by the way most systems are now hybrids incorporating point & buy (skills) aspects.

Check out Green Ronin Dragon Age PNP RPG if you want to see where modern PNP game design is at.

Sure Shadowrun had less loot, so did Twilight 2000 as it was post WWIII setting and loot was harder to come by, doesn't some how mean getting a bigger sword to kill a bigger monster is no longer part of the RPG genre.  (I mean come on it's a cliche for a reason).

And for everyone saying the ME1 wasn't hard enough, stats didn't matter, team composition didn't matter, just click and auto-combat button etc.... I don't agree, go back and play it again on the hardest unlocked setting (insanity? nightmare? can't remember what it was called) with a 1st level character and it is actually quite challenging. 

Back to the original question... why did they do it... as someone else said most certainly for the cheese aka $'s... or perhaps it was a sad accident in a tragic story of trying to make everyone happy... and ultimately displeasing the old school... dunno.

Ok then, 4th ed D&D stripped a large number of skills, ditches skillpoints all together, and largely divorced the system from the magic item economy that dominated previous editions.

Castles and Crusades has no skills

In Rogue Trader 'loot' (in the traditional sense) is irrelivant.

Likewise, Burning Wheel has an economic system that discourages loot collecting.

Modifié par imperialus1, 28 janvier 2010 - 04:31 .

[Vilegrim]

Zoe Dedweth wrote...

You do know ME has always been a shooter with RPG Elements right ?

used to be an RPG with shooter elements their is a diffence, will lerserve judgement till I have played it tho.

[LordRikerQ]

I was wondering the same thing, I love the game but I hate how it went from RPG w/FPS elements to FPS w/RPG elements.



this is probably my only and biggest let down.

[RighteousRage]

The problem with the game emphasizing shooting more is that the motivation for many players used to be in min-maxing, pumping up characters, gathering experience, etc. but now that has all been swiped away in favor of a slightly improved but still incredibly banal and archaic combat system.

[Thompson family]

I'm going to start keeping a count of how many threads are started per day on this very same topic.

[RighteousRage]

Thanks Thompson, I expect a thread with your attached report sometime next week.

[EchoTango]

Thompson family wrote...

I'm going to start keeping a count of how many threads are started per day on this very same topic.

I'll never understand how people's displeasure of a video game harms your life.

[Druss99]

Thompson family wrote...

I'm going to start keeping a count of how many threads are started per day on this very same topic.

Expect even more tomorrow when Europe gets it too. Good luck keeping track of it.

[Shipwr3K]

i love me a shooter with rpg elements.

[TourOfSpace]

the game isn't watered down, in reality they increased the difficulty of the game, by limiting the choices you can make and the points given they made it more difficult to choose what to upgrade, add to that once you max out an option it evolves into a better skill and choice. i agree with the addition of the ammunition and restriction of skills for team members, it adds challenge and actualyl skill to the game, where as before you could literally just hold down the right trigger and run around, now you actually have to time your shots and think about your next move in real time. i'm tired of people complaining, the fact is the game is great, it's more action oriented which adds more excitment, and as for character development, the point of less conversation is to give the feeling that your bonds are being forged by fire and battle. enjoy the game and enjoy the story

[Druss99]

EchoTango wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

I'm going to start keeping a count of how many threads are started per day on this very same topic.

I'll never understand how people's displeasure of a video game harms your life.

Its not so much peoples displeasure its that theres times when theres maybe 4 or 5 threads on the first page alone about the exact same subject. Your defending peoples right to give their opinions but you have to admit the number of seperate threads on it gets a bit out of hand.

Modifié par Druss99, 28 janvier 2010 - 04:49 .