54 réponses à ce sujet

[roelani]

Hi BSNarmy.

 

I dunno if this has been discussed before, but here goes. I just had a lightbulb moment. Rolled a new Lavellan because I like to torture myself for reasons unknown and I wanted to do another SolavellanHell playthrough, because of course I did. So I'm sitting here with my new pewpew rogue, practically dancing through the prologue, and my brain just went "FRRRRRRP" at this convo.

 

Blood magic.

 

Blood magic isn't evil. It can't be. Solas says the censure against it is superstition, and that much of the reason why it's so maligned is that it's either used as a last resort by desperate fools or abused by Mwahhahaha-mustache-twirling Tevinter magisters.

 

That comment has always struck me as odd because Solas doesn't seem the sort to have any truck with demon-summoning & sacrifices other such nonsense. But all of stuff's just coincidental. People believe you can summon demons with your own or someone else's blood because that's what they've been told.
 

But blood and lyrium are basically the same thing. Whether it's titan's blood or your own blood, or your annoying Orlesian neighbor's nug's blood, what difference does it make? All magic is pretty much blood magic. It's powered by blood; you reach for the energies of the Fade using blood, regardless of how you want to label it.

 

I've played through the Descent like 2 or 3 times and only just realized this.

 

It also casts a big old shadow of WTFudgery on the Joining. If all magic is powered by blood and you have this ritual that's basically powered by blood, what even is the Joining anymore if not just a really shifty and secret spell? Well, it was already that, but now it's even more that, I guess. There's not even a distinction between "Ooou, scary blood ritual" and "Here, have a barrier, friend *FWUMP*".

 

So now the Wardens are basically just a big old magical army. And the Seekers are also a big old magical army. If the Templars are drinking magical blood, are they also a big old magical army?

 

... Suddenly everyone seems like big old magical hypocrites. /disgusted noise

 

I know, I'm slow on the uptake. Feel free to add your thoughs, BSNarmy.

[nightscrawl]

Mages don't need to use lyrium to cast normal types of spells, if that were the case, they would be as addicted as templars because they would be chugging it all the time. They only need lyrium, and lots of it, if they're going to cast really powerful or involved spells to augment their own mana. However, blood magic enables certain types of manipulation that are not available otherwise, demon summoning, mind control, and so on. In that sense, blood magic is different than lyrium-based magic.

 

The problem has never been that blood magic itself is evil, and it annoys me that we can't counter this argument in the game. What blood magic is is an easy fix, a way to get a LOT of power without much work, especially for a Tevinter altus with a lot of spare slaves sitting around. The temptation to misuse it is the problem. That desire for more and more power is the corrupting influence, which is enabled by the mechanics of blood magic.

[Gervaise]

The development team seem to be all over the place now with blood magic.   In the novel the Last Flight it is definitely made clear that blood magic is essentially using the powers of evil, even if it is for the greater good.  It draws its power from something other than the Fade.   The former blood mage makes the point that he has now renounced it not simply on moral grounds or because he knows he is being watched closely by the authorities but because it has such unpredictable results.    So from that point of view you could argue it is not evil to do blood magic but stupid.   You just do not know what you are playing with.   You think you can control the results but you really can't because you have no way of knowing what the hidden result of your using it might be.   It is odd though that the Magisters have been able to use it for so long with utterly predictable results and so far as we know no adverse side effects, other than the standard one of making you more at risk of possession.

 

Funnily enough you can see why Solas might consider there is nothing inherently wrong with doing blood magic because he doesn't really understand it himself and he doesn't seem to be able to consider the potential hidden bad effects of his actions.    He raised the Veil, which seemed like a good idea because it trapped away the mage tyrants but had the "hidden" so far as he was considered bad effect of stripping the elves of their magic and immortality and bringing many of their structures built on magic crashing down.     Isseya used blood magic to make the griffons accept the joining, thus making them more effective in the battle against the darkspawn but the unintended consequence of this was the extinction of the griffons.   If Solas does in fact understand all the implications of blood magic, it would have been helpful if he had told us.   For all we know it could have been a gigantic blood magic spell that created the Veil, which is why it had unintended consequences on the part of the user.   May be that was why he needed thousands of years to recover and was still weak when he awoke.   He knew about the Titans, so he must know more about lyrium than he ever let on.   So his trite criticisms and brief defences essentially meant nothing.

 

So I think the writers are moving away from the idea of blood magic is simply evil (which is more of a Chantry idea after all) to the idea that blood magic is inherently unpredictable and therefore you use it at your peril.   As Nightscrawl says one of the chief criticisms that you can use against blood magic is that it is an easy way for a naturally weak mage to get a lot more power.   You haven't studied your way to performing those powerful spells and strengthened your mana pool by disciplining your mind to do so, but simply cut yourself or someone else and hey presto you can do amazing things.       Merrill used blood magic because her own magical strength wasn't sufficient to do what she wanted and she didn't have access to lyrium.   You could argue that if your own natural talents aren't sufficient, then you shouldn't be attempting it, even if you do have access to lyrium.   There is always the danger that magic can go wrong if you try to do too much too soon.

 

The other aspect to blood magic is that there are certain spells you can only do with blood magic.   Solas was talking about the concept generally.    The Chantry prohibition and most people's objection to it, outside of the sacrifice of innocents part, is that it can be used to control minds in a way that no other magic seems to be able to do.   Solas would object to its use in that way because of how it denies the freewill of the victim.

 

The Dalish do have their own prohibition on blood magic, which may have to do with their wariness of anything to do with using spirits and a lot of the time blood magic does seem to involve using demons in some way, but may also be a cultural taboo based on their history.   I've suggested elsewhere that when slaves were arriving in the Dales after the Long March they would all have stories to share of their mistreatment at the hands of the Magisters.   In particular they spoke of how they were used as a blood bank for spells over a prolonged period (an entry in World of Thedas actually speaks of this) but no doubt also had horror stories of having witnessed friends and family being sacrificed by blood mages.   It seems to me that very early on they would have agreed that whilst magic is not inherently bad (it is a gift of the Creators), blood magic is evil.  They would have made a collective vow that no elf would ever use it.   It is noticeable that when we have examples of them doing so, it is condemned.  Merrill was banished.   The group in the Sulevin quest were cursed by their own magic.   The elders when discussing Zathrian's actions at the next Arlathaven condemned it as a "crime against nature" that he used blood magic to bind a spirit of nature in that way.   Thus it would be understandable Lavellan saying that blood magic is evil to Solas.    It is a pity they just couldn't emphasise more why they would feel this way but then possibly even the writers hadn't thought of it (and much of the conversation was originally written for a human Inquisitor).

 

Lyrium was originally described as a non-organic mineral.   World of Thedas calls it the only "non living" thing to contain the essence of magic.  It was a blue green crystal.    Now it flows in silver streams and is the blood of Titans.   Now it is a living thing that can be infected with the Blight.   So now, yes, effectively using lyrium is blood magic.     This is a totally new development and contradiction to previous lore.    I've no answer to this one but I hope the writers will come up with a good explanation for this change in understanding of it which has apparently been unknown for thousands of years.

[roelani]

Thanks for the input, peeps. I haven't read Last Flight (I tried to read a previous DA novel but found that stylistically it bored me to tears and never finished it, oops) so I didn't have any of that info.

 

I'm still getting the feeling that pretty much everything Lore-wise is getting slowly rewritten. Various histories have changed, concepts have been turned on their heads, entire cultures' beginnings are now up in the air.

 

Honestly at this point I'm starting to hope DA4 is the last one (is it?), because it's getting pretty convoluted.

[Fiskrens]

Lyrium was originally described as a non-organic mineral.   World of Thedas calls it the only "non living" thing to contain the essence of magic.  It was a blue green crystal.    Now it flows in silver streams and is the blood of Titans.   Now it is a living thing that can be infected with the Blight.   So now, yes, effectively using lyrium is blood magic.     This is a totally new development and contradiction to previous lore.    I've no answer to this one but I hope the writers will come up with a good explanation for this change in understanding of it which has apparently been unknown for thousands of years.

I like your post, just want to point out that "non-organic mineral" and "living thing that can be infected by blight" aren't necessarily contradictory. Titans may be a totally different form of life. So the recent development may just be an expansion of the concept, not so much a ret-con. But we will continue to fumble in the dark until DA4 (or longer).

[In Exile]

Lyrium was thought to be a mineral. Bianca realizing it isn't is a huge revelation.

[vertigomez]

Lyrium was thought to be a mineral. Bianca realizing it isn't is a huge revelation.

Yeah, the whole revelation that "lyrium is the blood of the Titans" is supposed to make you double-take and examine everything you thought you knew about the nature of the world. It's a Wham Line, not a retcon.

You're forced to reexamine the nature of lyrium in the same way that you're forced to reexamine the nature of Fen'Harel. And blood magic. And possession.

[Secret Rare]

Using Lyrium to fuel personal power is like using blood magic since lyrium is still blood of other beings.If lyrium cause dementia in time there is no reason to think that blood magic doesn't have this same effect,afterall i saw plenty of mages who became dement when they used very often spells based on blood magic.

 

Blood magic is not useful for those who are somniari and gain their powers directly from the fade since it undermines their connection to it ,you will not see Solas using these kind of magic since his sensitivity to the fade would be diminished..

[Shechinah]

The problem has never been that blood magic itself is evil, and it annoys me that we can't counter this argument in the game. What blood magic is is an easy fix, a way to get a LOT of power without much work, especially for a Tevinter altus with a lot of spare slaves siting around. The temptation to misuse it is the problem. That desire for more and more power is the corrupting influence, which is enabled by the mechanics of blood magic.

 

It isn't helped that we've seldom, if ever, seen blood magic used in a positive fashion such as in the manner that Solas describes of a healer with a patient. I think we've only ever seen it in the series where it'd been in connection to demons and mind control. This kind of only enforces the connotation.

 

If the next stop in the series is the Tevinter Imperium then I'm hoping we'll see blood magic utilized in more various ways.

 

[Just_January]

Isn't the actual power in blood magic fueled by the suffering it causes, so the more pain it causes the more powerful it is? That says evil to me... screw what Solas says.

[Gervaise]

I still wonder how something can be described as "non living" in the World of Thedas and yet be described by Bianca as alive and infected with the Blight.   Also being the blood of a Titan would suggest it is alive since the Titan is alive.    This is what I find something of a contradiction.   Now a mineral could be contaminated with the Blight.    It is just the terminology I'm taking issue with.   

[Shechinah]

Isn't the actual power in blood magic fueled by the agony it causes, so the more agony it causes the more powerful it is? That says evil to me... screw what Solas says.

 

Not that I've heard. From what I've heard, it seems to come down to the amount of power being influeced by the amount of blood used. There is some speculation that some blood might have special properties if it came from a mage even an untrained one.   

[vertigomez]

I still wonder how something can be described as "non living" in the World of Thedas and yet be described by Bianca as alive and infected with the Blight.   Also being the blood of a Titan would suggest it is alive since the Titan is alive.    This is what I find something of a contradiction.   Now a mineral could be contaminated with the Blight.    It is just the terminology I'm taking issue with.

Because we didn't know it was alive back in WoT. Everyone thought it was non-living.

[Gervaise]

It's not speculation.  In the short story about Calpernia it states that slave mages are valued because of the uses they can be put to in magical experiments.   It is the same with elves.  There is something different about their blood that makes it more potent in blood magic rituals.

[Xerrai]

Solas said it simply enough, blood magic can be fine so long as it niether a crutch or a passion.

Unfortunately, that is pretty much how all blood mages uses it. As Dorian says, "you always need more". Combined with its effects (ex. mind control, dementia), blood magic in this age is widely detrimental.

This practically includes lyrium too. Even prior to Decent, lyrium always had just as much potential to cause harm to users and victims alike--particularly with how it affected constant users.

For what is lyrium if not the Templar's/Chantry's passionate crutch?

[In Exile]

The more interesting point of what Solas says is that blood magic makes it harder to connect with the Fade. We have lots of indications that titans may have worked like anchors in the pre-Veil world - making things "real" in the way that Cole uses the word.

[IllustriousT]

The more interesting point of what Solas says is that blood magic makes it harder to connect with the Fade. We have lots of indications that titans may have worked like anchors in the pre-Veil world - making things "real" in the way that Cole uses the word.

 

This always confuses me when it comes to blood magic and abominations. If its harder to connect with the Fade, wouldn't it therefore be harder to become possessed by creatures in the Fade? Blood mages should then be intrinsically tied to reality...protecting them from demon possession. They would definitely be playing by different rules then.

[Aliceeverafter]

Now it flows in silver streams?
When did this happen?

[Aliceeverafter]

Re blood magic - if a mage cuts themself like Merril to use blood, how does that give them access to anything that they wouldn't already be drawing on in their own body?

[Squinterific]

I believe Gaider confirmed blood is neutral, same as lyrium. The issue is it is 1) a lot more potent than lyrium, which is why it can be used for more powerful spells, and 2) it makes demons more interested in you because it weakens the Veil. If you can manage those 2 aspects and not lose your head, there's nothing wrong with it. Considering the Veil is not natural, but a spell cast by Solas, this was probably an oversight or a shortcoming on Solas's side rather than something inherently evil about blood magic.

[Gervaise]

I'm hoping they will start explaining the mechanics of blood magic a bit more if we are going to Tevinter next.   If they don't know how it works after all this time, then they seem curiously ignorant of a major aspect of their rise to power.    It is hardly surprising if southern Circles really have no understanding of it because of the prohibition against it but for years Tevinter used blood magic quite openly (before the Chantry got involved), so there should be something in their lore books at least explaining what they observed in how it works.    It is said not to draw its power from the Fade, so where does it draw it from?    It makes it harder to connect with the Fade while you are using it?   Why?   Yet paradoxically it apparently weakens the Veil where it is used.  Again, why?    There appears to be an inherent contradiction in its use, just as lyrium can be used both to connect with the Fade and yet block someone from it.    Why does it allow you to control people's minds directly when ordinary Fade magic cannot?    What is its connection with spirits/demons?    Who first came up with the idea?   Was it merely a happy accident or did someone specifically teach it to them?

[Fiskrens]

It makes it harder to connect with the Fade while you are using it?   Why?   Yet paradoxically it apparently weakens the Veil where it is used.  Again, why?    There appears to be an inherent contradiction in its use, just as lyrium can be used both to connect with the Fade and yet block someone from it.    Why does it allow you to control people's minds directly when ordinary Fade magic cannot?    What is its connection with spirits/demons?    Who first came up with the idea?   Was it merely a happy accident or did someone specifically teach it to them?

Groundless speculation mode™:
If lyrium/blood simply works as a catalyst of one's own mind and inherent powers, it can be used in both directions, i.e. block connection to fade or weaken it. This could also explain why only blood magic allows for mind control, etc.; is the only (current) medium that is potent enough.

[thepiebaker]

It's similar to how the dark side in star wars. It's not inheritly evil. Darkside draws from emotion and strongest uses involve losing oneself in them. Which if they lose themselves to anger hatred and suffering they go evil. But a sith fueled by love would be a force to be reconned with.

Blood magic however runs on the act of sacrifice/pain. From what I've read cutting the throat of one's mother spouse and children is more powerful than 100 lobotomized cows. And the level of violence also determines so a papercut is less powerful than launching into a meatgrinder. So its quality>quantity

[vertigomez]

About Solas saying blood magic weakens one's connection with the Fade: it would be hilariously horrifying if the only way to stop the Veil coming down (and the fiery chaos that follows) would be to perform some kind of mass blood sacrifice.

That's a lose/lose situation for the people of Thedas, lol.

[Xerrai]

About Solas saying blood magic weakens one's connection with the Fade: it would be hilariously horrifying if the only way to stop the Veil coming down (and the fiery chaos that follows) would be to perform some kind of mass blood sacrifice.

That's a lose/lose situation for the people of Thedas, lol.

Eh, I'm sure Tevinter wouldn't mind culling their elf population. And Orlais has been shown willing to purge Dalish Clans and alienages alike without shedding any tears.