54 réponses à ce sujet

[vertigomez]

Eh, I'm sure Tevinter wouldn't mind culling their elf population. And Orlais has been shown willing to purge Dalish Clans and alienages alike without shedding any tears.

Well, yeah. But it's a lose/lose situation for the people who die...

[Gervaise]

Tevinter wouldn't be in favour of culling their elf population unless it was absolutely essential.    They want to have elven slaves around,  they need to have elven slaves around.   Their blood is more potent in blood magic rituals.  It's probably the only thing that has kept the elves from extinction.   It's easy enough to breed them out of the population but Tevinter didn't want that.  

 

I also think that it is more likely that a massive blood sacrifice would bring the Veil crashing down, not strengthen it.   That is what the Magisters used, together with a lot of lyrium, to break into the Black City.     It's why I get so worried if the elves rushing off to Solas aren't just his agents but simply large numbers of elves.    What use would he have for them, except a massive blood sacrifice to destroy the Veil?     They might even sacrifice themselves willingly if they were convinced it was going to restore the elves to glory.   Cult leaders can be dangerously charismatic when it comes to such things.    Why does he say to a romanced Lavellan "I would not have you see what I become"?    I jest you not, it could happen.

[Xerrai]

Tevinter wouldn't be in favour of culling their elf population unless it was absolutely essential.    They want to have elven slaves around,  they need to have elven slaves around.   Their blood is more potent in blood magic rituals.  It's probably the only thing that has kept the elves from extinction.   It's easy enough to breed them out of the population but Tevinter didn't want that.  

 

I also think that it is more likely that a massive blood sacrifice would bring the Veil crashing down, not strengthen it.   That is what the Magisters used, together with a lot of lyrium, to break into the Black City.     It's why I get so worried if the elves rushing off to Solas aren't just his agents but simply large numbers of elves.    What use would he have for them, except a massive blood sacrifice to destroy the Veil?     They might even sacrifice themselves willingly if they were convinced it was going to restore the elves to glory.   Cult leaders can be dangerously charismatic when it comes to such things.    Why does he say to a romanced Lavellan "I would not have you see what I become"?    I jest you not, it could happen.

Yeppers. Though Solas seems like the sort who would vehemently oppose that sort of thing, I also view him as the sort of person who go against even his own ideals if he thought the cause was good enough and the stakes high enough. Blood sacrifice goes into that category.

 

But I honestly thought the "I would not have you see what I become" would have more to do with his oncoming war-leader persona than a blood-sacrifice mongerer. Given his own admission that he is not well versed on the art, I'd sooner peg him for a massive spirit-hoarding/culling to push at the veil instead of blood sacrifice. Its equally abhorrent to him, but more within his capabilities.

[XxFAMOUSxX]

I've never seen blood magic as some evil form of magic as the game would portray. It only seemed evil because we've only seen its uses out of a form of desperation, a last resort or from someone with bad intentions against our heroes. Yet our heroes could specialize in the same evil act in saving the world or city? Just mention the word blood magic and Cullen wets himself, yet I've seen what good it could do when used in a responsible manner (the warden/hawke). I think most (in game) are short minded because it seems everything in that world is to be portrayed black and white (Templars/Mages) but we the people know that isn't always the case.

[DebatableBubble]

Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will! As it did Marethari's First.


I don't care what whitewashing the next game is going to do. Blood magic is pretty freaking evil.

[roelani]

Tevinter wouldn't be in favour of culling their elf population unless it was absolutely essential.    They want to have elven slaves around,  they need to have elven slaves around.   Their blood is more potent in blood magic rituals.  It's probably the only thing that has kept the elves from extinction.   It's easy enough to breed them out of the population but Tevinter didn't want that.  

 

I also think that it is more likely that a massive blood sacrifice would bring the Veil crashing down, not strengthen it.   That is what the Magisters used, together with a lot of lyrium, to break into the Black City.     It's why I get so worried if the elves rushing off to Solas aren't just his agents but simply large numbers of elves.    What use would he have for them, except a massive blood sacrifice to destroy the Veil?     They might even sacrifice themselves willingly if they were convinced it was going to restore the elves to glory.   Cult leaders can be dangerously charismatic when it comes to such things.    Why does he say to a romanced Lavellan "I would not have you see what I become"?    I jest you not, it could happen.

 

.... Welp. Hadn't thought of that. All aboard the Drama&Feels Train! Choooo choooo! (Don't mind me, I'll just be over here in this quiet corner, rocking myself to sleep or something.)

[Inquisitor Tiber Trevelyan]

Blood magic has a heavy price, but I believe there's really not that much of a moral difference between Blood Magic and "normal" magic. 

Several times my character in Inquisition implied that magic (normal) itself isn't evil, it's how you use it. Mother Giselle thinks the same way. 

 

I also believe Blood Magic itself isn't evil, its how you use it and how you "power it up" that matters. 

 

I believe the problem is that since Blood Magic is shunned by most, good knowledge of how to use it is lacking. Most mages who tries it haven't been taught properly how to do it and that combined with the massive power it offers is a very bad combination. 

 

Calien who actually learned it from a good teacher (a demon) seemed to be able to handle Blood Magic just fine, and he lived for a long time and wasn't corrupted by it to my knowledge. He even taught somebody else how to do it. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

So I think the writers are moving away from the idea of blood magic is simply evil (which is more of a Chantry idea after all) to the idea that blood magic is inherently unpredictable and therefore you use it at your peril.

When have they ever portrayed it as "simply evil?" They've always shown it as unpredictable, and a tool that can do amoral things, but does either of those make something evil? Has it ever been shown to be a force that makes you less of a good person when you use it? Has it ever been shown that it rebels against use for good more than it does use for evil? I haven't read The Last Flight, but doesn't that book portray blood magic as ultimately the reason the Blight ended even as it goes more into detail about the risks of using it?

 

 

Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will! As it did Marethari's First.


I don't care what whitewashing the next game is going to do. Blood magic is pretty freaking evil.

How so?

[Illegitimus]

Isn't the actual power in blood magic fueled by the suffering it causes, so the more pain it causes the more powerful it is? That says evil to me... screw what Solas says.

 

As I recall, Solas also said using blood magic made it more difficult to enter the Fade.  I'm guessing that's not because it makes passing the veil more difficult but because it makes the Fade itself more inhospitable as demons gather to feed.  Also I think it's questionable that lyrium is actually Titan blood.  It seems more like...waste product.  

[Catilina]

Magic is magic. The Wardens uses blood magic, the Chantry also uses a kind of blood magic. By itself is not evil. (The weapon do not kills anything, the man kills.) The problem with the temptation as Dorian says.

[ModernAcademic]

Blood magic doesn't always involve pain and sacrifice (of others of of self). Here are two examples of blood magic present in Origins, one of them happening right at the beginning of the game:

 

The Joining is basically drinking the blood of your enemy, which can be fatal and is quite painful since darkspawn blood is poisonous, but it's ultimately a selfless, altruistic act performed to achieve a noble goal, two qualities that are the very antonym of what blood magic is about (selfishness and dark goals, such as more power, the destruction of enemies or control over the minds of innocents).

 

An example of harmless blood magic is the Dark Ritual Morrigan asks the Warden to perform. Nobody is sacrificed or forced to undergo a painful ritual - except for Morrigan herself, for she was still a virgin (she clearly tells her mother she was not ready for this) -, but such ritual is voluntarily performed by Morrigan and no lives are sacrificed to achieve the ritual's purpose.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

An example of harmless blood magic is the Dark Ritual Morrigan asks the Warden to perform. Nobody is sacrificed or forced to undergo a painful ritual - except for Morrigan herself, for she was still a virgin (she clearly tells her mother she was not ready for this) -, but such ritual is voluntarily performed by Morrigan and no lives are sacrificed to achieve the ritual's purpose.

 

1) Morrigan is not a virgin. Flemeth has introduced her to a couple of Chasind men before she met the Warden.

 

2) The ritual is not painful per say, but it forces an innocent child to have the soul of an Old God. Such forms of coercion is not ethical.

[Gervaise]

In Last Flight blood magic is the reason the griffons went extinct, not the reason the Blight ended.   The blood magic ritual used on the griffons may have extended their fighting life but it also made them extremely difficult to control.   When confronting the archdemon the griffons who had been altered with blood magic go out of control and potentially the battle could have been lost as a result, since the original plan to draw the archdemon towards the waiting army on the ground was thrown into complete disarray.   The only surviving Grey Wardens of this tactical disaster were the ones on unchanged griffons.     Garahel's crookytail was not altered with blood magic and yet he had been battling since the beginning of the Blight, so it could well be the changing of the griffons was unnecessary.

 

What is emphasised is that it was the unpredictable nature of blood magic that led to the unforeseen consequences of using the blood magic on the griffons.   It is Calien who makes this point and states that even if he wasn't being closely watched, he rejects any further use of blood magic because "I'll never strike a blind bargain again."

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

In Last Flight blood magic is the reason the griffons went extinct, not the reason the Blight ended.   The blood magic ritual used on the griffons may have extended their fighting life but it also made them extremely difficult to control.   When confronting the archdemon the griffons who had been altered with blood magic go out of control and potentially the battle could have been lost as a result, since the original plan to draw the archdemon towards the waiting army on the ground was thrown into complete disarray.   The only surviving Grey Wardens of this tactical disaster were the ones on unchanged griffons.     Garahel's crookytail was not altered with blood magic and yet he had been battling since the beginning of the Blight, so it could well be the changing of the griffons was unnecessary.

 

What is emphasised is that it was the unpredictable nature of blood magic that led to the unforeseen consequences of using the blood magic on the griffons.   It is Calien who makes this point and states that even if he wasn't being closely watched, he rejects any further use of blood magic because "I'll never strike a blind bargain again."

I see.

 

I probably should read the books at some point, but part of me wonders if I won't come to understand them well enough just by hanging around on the forums.

 

One question, if you have read it: is it shown in the books that blood magic somehow has a will of its own? That's one way I could see blood magic itself as evil, though that's not the same as using it being evil.

[Fiskrens]

I see.
 
I probably should read the books at some point, but part of me wonders if I won't come to understand them well enough just by hanging around on the forums.
 
One question, if you have read it: is it shown in the books that blood magic somehow has a will of its own? That's one way I could see blood magic itself as evil, though that's not the same as using it being evil.

Nah, to me The Last Flight more than ever made the Blood Magic = double-edged sword statement. Used as desperate measure, and useful at first. But consequences become dire. No will of its own that I could see.

And none of the books are any "quality literature" if you get my meaning, but mildly interesting as they fill out the back story on certain characters (Loghain and Cole being two examples). So it's fully possible to just read their synopsis on the net.

[fdrty]

Blood magic is meant to be a kind of faustian deal - it's basically the steroids of magic. Sure, you'll get ahead, but there is always a cost.

 

It's meant to be addictive and harmful (it is using your blood, you kinda need that)

 

The kind of people who turn to blood magic are either desperate or are lusting after power. Turning to it confirms that. That is the problem: nobody who could survive using it needs to, and nobody who does use it regularly survives.

 

The stigma against it is, IMO, justified, given how harmful it is. Just like how there is a stigma against drugs in our world. Sure, some people might be able to use them and be fine, but the chances of it ruining your life is just too high.

 

1) Morrigan is not a virgin. Flemeth has introduced her to a couple of Chasind men before she met the Warden.

 

When did they say this? More importantly, why doesn't Morrigan have a baby or 2 of her own anyway? Matter of fact, you have all this sex in every game, why don't you ever have a kid (barring Origins)?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

When did they say this? More importantly, why doesn't Morrigan have a baby or 2 of her own anyway? Matter of fact, you have all this sex in every game, why don't you ever have a kid (barring Origins)?

Pullout game is superhumanly strong?

[fdrty]

Pullout game is superhumanly strong?

 

You do know that pulling out isn't a guarantee of anything... especially if you've had sex/ejaculated within a few days? Sperm can survive under the foreskin, then when you're having adult hug time with a lady friend they can pop out and say hello to her uterus.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

You do know that pulling out isn't a guarantee of anything... especially if you've had sex/ejaculated within a few days? Sperm can survive under the foreskin, then when you're having adult hug time with a lady friend they can pop out and say hello to her uterus.

Yes, I do. That's why it would have to be superhumanly strong.

[Qun00]

Ask the slave about to be sacrificed in a blood ritual if what he is feeling is "superstition".

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Ask the slave about to be sacrificed in a blood ritual if what he is feeling is "superstition".

He'll be praying to his not-provably-extant Maker too loudly to hear the question.

 

But anyway human/elven/qunari sacrifice isn't the be-all-end-all of blood magic. Obviously that should be banned, and so should dwarven sacrifice if they do that, but bringing it up doesn't answer the question of whether blood magic as a whole is evil.

[Qun00]

He'll be praying to his not-provably-extant Maker too loudly to hear the question.

But anyway human/elven/qunari sacrifice isn't the be-all-end-all of blood magic. Obviously that should be banned, and so should dwarven sacrifice if they do that, but bringing it up doesn't answer the question of whether blood magic as a whole is evil.

Avernus, a proud blood magic apologist, literally spells it out for us:

"Blood magic comes from demons. They could counter every bit of lore I know."

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Avernus, a proud blood magic apologist, literally spells it out for us:

"Blood magic comes from demons. They could counter every bit of lore I know."

Even supposing that that is true (and that the other theory where the Old Gods originally taught it isn't) why does that make it evil? For one thing, I get the impression that means only that it was originally taught by demons, since we see no sign that it requires you to actually draw on a demon to power it. For another, even if it did require demonic power, why would that make it evil, as long as you don't have to use the power in evil ways and the power doesn't innately cause the world to become worse?

 

The truly evil magic in other settings twists your mind and makes you forget your humanity. We have Word of Gaider that blood magic doesn't innately do that to its caster, and nothing in the setting really contradicts that. So what is it about this magic that is evil?

[Qun00]

Even supposing that that is true (and that the other theory where the Old Gods originally taught it isn't) why does that make it evil? For one thing, I get the impression that means only that it was originally taught by demons, since we see no sign that it requires you to actually draw on a demon to power it. For another, even if it did require demonic power, why would that make it evil, as long as you don't have to use the power in evil ways and the power doesn't innately cause the world to become worse?

The truly evil magic in other settings twists your mind and makes you forget your humanity. We have Word of Gaider that blood magic doesn't innately do that to its caster, and nothing in the setting really contradicts that. So what is it about this magic that is evil?

I am pretty selective about what kind of people I associate myself with. And as a general rule I don't accept gifts from a criminal.

Require isn't the word I'd use. Blood magic is demonic power, which may boost regular magic or do something of its own.

Bethany felt a demon's presence when Merrill did something as basic as cutting her wrist to dispel a barrier.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I am pretty selective about what kind of people I associate myself with. And as a general rule I don't accept gifts from a criminal.

Does that mean doing so is evil?

 

 

Require isn't the word I'd use. Blood magic is demonic power, which may boost regular magic or do something of its own.

Bethany felt a demon's presence when Merrill did something as basic as cutting her wrist to dispel a barrier.

What I meant was that I don't think we know that it requires you to actually draw that power from a demon. It's specifically mentioned that Merrill summoned a spirit that time, but it's not made clear that she always does. But anyway, while I agree that summoning demons is foolish in the extreme, is it necessarily evil?