Zum Inhalt wechseln

Foto

Could have Dark Elves ever existed?


  • Bitte melde dich an um zu Antworten
69 Antworten in diesem Thema

#1
animedreamer

animedreamer
  • Members
  • 3.048 Beiträge

Could they still exist? 

 

Let's face it Elves in many fictional Worlds either are or once were the height of civilization, always do we hear about their sprawling majestic kingdoms filled to the brim with magic and beauty. How the Elves either are immortal, magical beings, close to if not are the epitome of perfection in both physical form as well as mental acuity. There societies being described as everything you could want them to be from a outward appearance, that is to say there is as much intrigue at Elven Court as any other high society. While disagreements and woeful maneuvering took place at it's core Elven Society was good aligned (not sure what else to call it.). Yet almost every such world with similar depictions at some point or another, introduces the idea of the fabled or perhaps reviled, "Dark Elves" ..

 

Dark Elves, usually depicted as every bit as beautiful as their "Elven" counterparts are always either visually darker or slightly more tan if not bronzen. They usually have several other traits that physically mark them as well varying depending on the world in question. In same they have snow white hair, red eyes, ebony black skin, and are slightly more lith or shorter than their normal elven counterparts. In others they appear dark blue or grey in skin, with hair colors they vary from white to silver to dark black and any color in between. Still besides their physical appear what truly always makes them stand out in most fictional worlds is that they are incredibly "evil". What exactly makes them evil both as a source as well as from a cultural point varies as much as their appearance. The most famous one that im most familiar with is from the classic D&D Forgotten Realms setting. Without going into great detail, they are and can be downright twisted. Their culture however can be viewed as well fascinating in some aspects though, at least in that particular world. 

 

So my idea is could such a group exist in Thedas? Hidden away somewhere, yet discovered by modern Thedas? Forgotten by what remains of the Elves? Imprisoned in some far flung corner of the world, or beneath the Earth? What part could they play in the over-all problems still plaguing Thedas? I was briefly daydreaming about this very thing. Especially after remembering Paivel's recanting that the Elves once varied as much as the humans and were everywhere across Thedas, though he says he's never heard of Elves living in caves, (despite you finding such a ruin where Dwarves and Elves apparently must have traded there and maybe even lived there). I like to imagine them as still every bit as powerful as the old Elvhen, perhaps having even being untouched by the rising of the veil or simply countermanding it with their own personal "Dark Weave" of spells that kept all their magics in place. Perhaps they are somehow even responsible for setting the Dark Spawn upon the world and watch and wait for a time when there creation finally takes over the surface and terraforms it into something more to their liking.

 

Still what do you guys think. Could Thedas have their own version of Dark Elvhen someday? How would you prefer they be handled if ever they did come into existence or be revealed to always have existed?


  • NaclynE gefällt das

#2
PapaCharlie9

PapaCharlie9
  • Members
  • 2.839 Beiträge
What, you mean, like Zevran?
  • robertmarilyn gefällt das

#3
fdrty

fdrty
  • Members
  • 112 Beiträge

If by 'dark elves' you mean dark-skinned elves, well they already exist. They aren't any more evil than the light-skinned kind, and I suspect that Bioware wouldn't make them as such. They're pretty liberal, 'dark skin = evil' isn't a message they'd want to put in their games.

 

If by dark elves you mean an evil faction of elves, then we could see that in the next DA game, if the villain gets his way.



#4
thats1evildude

thats1evildude
  • Members
  • 10.971 Beiträge
The ancient elves basically WERE drow. The most evil priestess of Menzoberranzan would fit right in among the nobles of Arlathan.
  • Yermogi gefällt das

#5
animedreamer

animedreamer
  • Members
  • 3.048 Beiträge

The ancient elves basically WERE drow. The most evil priestess of Menzoberranzan would fit right in among the nobles of Arlathan.

Well if you listen to how Solas tells it, sure. Yet I seem to recall the Drow in Menzo really getting downright nasty. Demon Summoning, Demon Orgies, Drider Punishment, Incest, Baby Sacrificing (almost happened to Drizzt), and the plotting Everyone is always plotting to one up someone else. Murdering entire houses is entirely okay, so long as you do it under the cloak of Darkness and no catches wind of it. You can kill you ever you want, just make sure you don't get caught or mess up because if you do, everyone will basically turn on you. Matricide, Fratricide, all common place amongst Forgotten Realms Drow. lol God I wish something similar to that existed in Thedas.

 

What, you mean, like Zevran?

 

He's no more a Dark Elf than Alistair is a Elf :)



#6
vertigomez

vertigomez
  • Members
  • 5.248 Beiträge
The Evunaris were the "Drow" elves (or so Solas says... take it with a grain of salt), but thank goodness there's no skin color correlation because that's gross.

#7
vertigomez

vertigomez
  • Members
  • 5.248 Beiträge

Well if you listen to how Solas tells it, sure. Yet I seem to recall the Drow in Menzo really getting downright nasty. Demon Summoning, Demon Orgies, Drider Punishment, Incest, Baby Sacrificing (almost happened to Drizzt), and the plotting Everyone is always plotting to one up someone else. Murdering entire houses is entirely okay, so long as you do it under the cloak of Darkness and no catches wind of it. You can kill you ever you want, just make sure you don't get caught or mess up because if you do, everyone will basically turn on you. Matricide, Fratricide, all common place amongst Forgotten Realms Drow. lol God I wish something similar to that existed in Thedas.


Tevinter, Orzammar, even Orlais..? They all display most or all of these traits.

#8
animedreamer

animedreamer
  • Members
  • 3.048 Beiträge

The Evunaris were the "Drow" elves (or so Solas says... take it with a grain of salt), but thank goodness there's no skin color correlation because that's gross.

Well lets be clear, it's not because they were dark skinned or black elves (their skin was supposed to be as black as night, ebony) that the Drow were evil, remember at one point they were a part of the multitude of normal elves that existed, not as blackened as they would become later but they were still dark skinned, it was there goddess that got them all cursed by the chief elven deity which spread from their goddess down to her chosen followers, the same curse that drove them underground. Their goddess dogma is what makes them evil, and the society that they have cultivated based on it.



#9
Gervaise

Gervaise
  • Members
  • 4.504 Beiträge

If you go by the Dalish then the dark elves would be the ones who worshipped the Forgotten Ones.   Solas conveniently forgot to mention them.   They were gods of terror, malice, spite and pestilence and hung out in the Void.   There are still elves who worship them today in the Tirashan, who have blood red vallaslin and offer up their enemies as sacrifices to their gods as they attack.   Sound like a pretty drow-like bunch of elves to me.     In comparison to them the Creators are sweetness and light.   Andruil went mad hunting them and I wouldn't be surprised if they did something to the others as well that made them weird. 


  • animedreamer, Patchwork und Inkvisiittori gefällt das

#10
animedreamer

animedreamer
  • Members
  • 3.048 Beiträge

Tevinter, Orzammar, even Orlais..? They all display most or all of these traits.

If so I have yet to see it, maybe is some book or novel but the games have never depicted either of those places being remotely similar. Ancient Tevinter didn't even really openly allow demon summoning, worship. Worshipping Dragons seems to be the height of their hubris. As blood magic seems to be common place and not really a evil undertaking, unless its a blood sacrifice of unwilling people which yes I know they did and still do in some parts though now they try to hide it. 

 

Orlai and in some cases Orzammar seem to be more about outward appearance, honor, all use skullduggery behind closed doors but it's rare that it causes the kind of commotion Drow do, or maybe im just more fascinated by the efficiency in which they do it.  



#11
animedreamer

animedreamer
  • Members
  • 3.048 Beiträge

If you go by the Dalish then the dark elves would be the ones who worshipped the Forgotten Ones.   Solas conveniently forgot to mention them.   They were gods of terror, malice, spite and pestilence and hung out in the Void.   There are still elves who worship them today in the Tirashan, who have blood red vallaslin and offer up their enemies as sacrifices to their gods as they attack.   Sound like a pretty drow-like bunch of elves to me.     In comparison to them the Creators are sweetness and light.   Andruil went mad hunting them and I wouldn't be surprised if they did something to the others as well that made them weird. 

I don't know much about them but im definitely curious now.



#12
vertigomez

vertigomez
  • Members
  • 5.248 Beiträge

Well lets be clear, it's not because they were dark skinned or black elves (their skin was supposed to be as black as night, ebony) that the Drow were evil, remember at one point they were a part of the multitude of normal elves that existed, not as blackened as they would become later but they were still dark skinned, it was there goddess that got them all cursed by the chief elven deity which spread from their goddess down to her chosen followers, the same curse that drove them underground. Their goddess dogma is what makes them evil, and the society that they have cultivated based on it.


That's the thing so. Being "cursed" to have dark skin is........ not a good message to send.

If so I have yet to see it, maybe is some book or novel but the games have never depicted either of those places being remotely similar. Ancient Tevinter didn't even really openly allow demon summoning, worship. Worshipping Dragons seems to be the height of their hubris. As blood magic seems to be common place and not really a evil undertaking, unless its a blood sacrifice of unwilling people which yes I know they did and still do in some parts though now they try to hide it.


Blood magic may be common as dirt but that doesn't mean it's not usually used for evil purposes. Tevinter's drowning in blood sacrifice - Fenris and Dorian both attest to this. Demons have been summoned by, like, every faction in the series (and the result is usually bloody). Bhelen kills off his siblings and possibly his father for a chance at the throne. Celene has her girlfriend's parents murdered and lies about it for years, then goes off and burns Halamshiral. Chevaliers go on stabby death rampages through alienages for sport, Anora can have Alistair executed... idk man I'm not seeing where it's all that different, except that the Drow worship an explicitly evil goddess while everybody in DA thinks they're the good guys.
 

Orlai and in some cases Orzammar seem to be more about outward appearance, honor, all use skullduggery behind closed doors but it's rare that it causes the kind of commotion Drow do, or maybe im just more fascinated by the efficiency in which they do it.


But that's the same sort of stuff the Drow get up to. Annihilate someone's House and act like you didn't do a thing; that's a successful coup. Bhelen kills every member of House Harrowmont, down to the last man. Harrowmont purges Dust Town. Even Josephine says she can ruin someone's marriage with the right glove on the right nightstand. It's pretty ruthless.

#13
animedreamer

animedreamer
  • Members
  • 3.048 Beiträge

It being used for evil purpose doesn't make blood magic evil though. You could just as well use blood magic to save someone, and even by Tevinter law if the other party is willing a person can be used for blood magic for whatever purpose.  

 

As far as the curse that made them ebony black, again they were already dark skinned, I imagine dark grey or blue, I forget if they describe it in detail, but im certain it wasn't like say a African who is brown skinned. Also only humanity carries that silly attelage of Dark = Bad or Inferior. It wouldn't carry the same undertones across entirely different races with their own cultures and social views. It's best to separate real world meta views from fiction, it makes it more enjoyable.



#14
Daerog

Daerog
  • Members
  • 4.857 Beiträge
You mean dwarves? Dark elves are dwarves, at least originally/traditionally.

Tolkien mentioned "dark" elves and had two of them in the Silmarillion, but they were "dark" only because they refused to attempt the journey to the Immortal Lands. I think they died out like the pettidwarves died out.

Now everyone associates "dark elf" with evil.

As for the "Thedas version," it would depend on your view. Either the city elves are due to leaving "elfiness" or the dalish are for their rigidness and prejudice.
  • animedreamer und Sifr gefällt das

#15
Gervaise

Gervaise
  • Members
  • 4.504 Beiträge

In Tolkein the dark elves were the orcs.   They were elves who were twisted by torture by Morgoth to become orcs.   This is where Saruman got his ideas from for creating orc/human hybrids.    In Tolkein the Ents became Trolls.    Sauron was a corrupt Maiar, as was Saruman.   The other Istari or wizards, like Gandalf were Maiar sent to aid Middle Earth in mortal form.    Morgoth was a corrupted Valar.  

 

In Thedas really the darkspawn are the equivalent because each of them is the corrupted counterpart of the ordinary races.   Old God dragon into archdemon; elf into shriek; dwarf into genlock; human into Hurlock and qunari/kossith into ogre. 

 

As Vertigomez says, in Thedas you are hard pressed to find a "good" society, at least among those in power.  Though they claim to follow the Maker, the majority of the nobility at least are constantly scheming and murdering in Orlais, Tevinter and Antiva, probably Nevarra as well, while those in Ferelden appear too wrapped up in themselves to care about the people they are meant to protect (if DAI is anything to go by).   The Freemarches are probably the best of the lot and not a lot is known about the Anderfels society but during the 4th Blight their Queen would only contribute to the Wardens' war effort in other nations, even though they had just saved her own, if Garahel would sleep with her.    

 

Those who value solidarity and loyalty in their communities, looking out for one another and who are not constantly scheming and murdering, tend to be on the fringes: the traditional, non-Chantry Rivani, the Avaar, the Dalish and the City Elves.   With the exception of the City elves, none of these worship the Maker or acknowledge the Chantry's authority.  There has to be a moral in that somewhere.



#16
vertigomez

vertigomez
  • Members
  • 5.248 Beiträge

Those who value solidarity and loyalty in their communities, looking out for one another and who are not constantly scheming and murdering, tend to be on the fringes: the traditional, non-Chantry Rivani, the Avaar, the Dalish and the City Elves.   With the exception of the City elves, none of these worship the Maker or acknowledge the Chantry's authority.  There has to be a moral in that somewhere.


While I think any sufficiently large (or even sufficiently influential, even if they're small and cultish) religious institution is vulnerable to corruption, I think the above kind of falls flat. The dwarves have never worshipped the Maker or bowed down to Chantry authority but Orzammar's as corrupt as it gets, from the Diamond Quarter to Dust Town.

I think all these conflicts have more to do with injustice and the way societies are structured (plus demons and Red Lyrium and all that fun mystical stuff). That's what fuels most of the conflicts we run into. (Of course, when racism and hatred of magic is ingrained in your religious instiution's teachings, that's part of the injustice!)
  • Jedi Master of Orion und FemHawke FTW gefällt das

#17
Daerog

Daerog
  • Members
  • 4.857 Beiträge

In Tolkein the dark elves were the orcs. They were elves who were twisted by torture by Morgoth to become orcs. This is where Saruman got his ideas from for creating orc/human hybrids. In Tolkein the Ents became Trolls. Sauron was a corrupt Maiar, as was Saruman. The other Istari or wizards, like Gandalf were Maiar sent to aid Middle Earth in mortal form. Morgoth was a corrupted Valar.

In Thedas really the darkspawn are the equivalent because each of them is the corrupted counterpart of the ordinary races. Old God dragon into archdemon; elf into shriek; dwarf into genlock; human into Hurlock and qunari/kossith into ogre.

If you are just going with "dark elf" meaning twisted and evil, sure. Although, I find it odd you use that idea of a dark elf and then use Tolkien as evidence first to show that the darkspawn are dark elf equivalents because that seems backwards to me.

The original orcs were probably dark elves, but are never referred to as such since they... well, ceased to be elves. Tolkien's dark elves are called dark due to their ignorance of the Valar and truth of the world (they refused the journey; those who at least attempted it were the grey elves), they were not called dark for being twisted and evil (although Eol and his son, Maeglin, were pretty bad, but I'm not entirely sure Eol was of the "dark elves," and being called The Dark Elf was probably just a title).

#18
GoldenGail3

GoldenGail3
  • Members
  • 3.527 Beiträge

:huh: Are you asking if Skryim somehow co-existed in the DA realm? 


  • robertmarilyn gefällt das

#19
In Exile

In Exile
  • Members
  • 28.738 Beiträge

If you go by the Dalish then the dark elves would be the ones who worshipped the Forgotten Ones.   Solas conveniently forgot to mention them.   They were gods of terror, malice, spite and pestilence and hung out in the Void.   There are still elves who worship them today in the Tirashan, who have blood red vallaslin and offer up their enemies as sacrifices to their gods as they attack.   Sound like a pretty drow-like bunch of elves to me.     In comparison to them the Creators are sweetness and light.   Andruil went mad hunting them and I wouldn't be surprised if they did something to the others as well that made them weird. 

 

I don't think Solas forgot to mention them, so much as I doubt that Solas thinks they're different from the Evanuris. The Dalish myths have been pretty money on the Dread Wolf, and their stories make it seem like Solas had close ties to them. 



#20
IHaveReturned1999

IHaveReturned1999
  • Members
  • 359 Beiträge
tumblr_mhxui3Shrg1s5wasno1_400_zpsj4wosz

tumblr_lyre6xHe4S1qguug1o1_400_zpsx1aoww

tumblr_no9awymVtU1t9ups5o1_400_zpshojxim
  • PapaCharlie9 gefällt das

#21
Bayonet Hipshot

Bayonet Hipshot
  • Members
  • 6.753 Beiträge

Thedas is too weak to handle the glorious Dunmer Master Race...

 

morrowind_dunmer_by_theminttu-d6528g5.jp


  • animedreamer gefällt das

#22
animedreamer

animedreamer
  • Members
  • 3.048 Beiträge

:huh: Are you asking if Skryim somehow co-existed in the DA realm? 

No not really.

 

Spoiler

 

More like, 

Spoiler

 

By the way I picked these 3 images because its become increasingly harder to find non-romanticized images of the Drow, which at least in my opinion should depict them as what is seen above. Apparently Drow have become as varied as the surface Elves, with eye colors of facet of the rainbow. I can accept them having varying degrees of black skin, or some universes using that cyan blue or purple color for their skin. However unless your name is Drizzt Do'Urden I despise them having anything but red eyes.



#23
Bayonet Hipshot

Bayonet Hipshot
  • Members
  • 6.753 Beiträge

Plot Twist - Could Qunari be the Theodosian Dark Elves ? The Qunari could be a combination of Elder Scrolls Dunmer and LOTR's Orcs. A small contingent of Ancient Elves, dissatisfied with the way their society is structured, leaves Elvhenan and later they get experimented on by the Ancient Tevinter or by Evanuris such as Ghilan'nain. 


  • animedreamer und 9TailsFox gefällt das

#24
GoldenGail3

GoldenGail3
  • Members
  • 3.527 Beiträge

No not really.

 

You were refering to Dark Elves, and Dark Elves are a race in Tamriel. 



#25
animedreamer

animedreamer
  • Members
  • 3.048 Beiträge

You were refering to Dark Elves, and Dark Elves are a race in Tamriel. 

They are also a race in other works of fiction such as the Ed Greenwood's Forgotten Realms campaign setting which first introduced me to the concept long before The Elder Scrolls existed. Besides I don't think the Dunmer are any more evil and twisted than any other race in Tamriel.