252 réponses à ce sujet

[Sanunes]

I honestly think this is a bit blown out of proportion. "Controversy" always looks bigger if you're going by the BSN, but I doubt a huge portion of players overall actually cared. 

 

The problem I have with this argument is it can be used to justify anything, for example "I doubt a huge portion of players care about having deeper romances and that is only something a portion of the BSN wants".  We don't have all the information and we never will, but I bet BioWare has plenty of feedback from multiple places on the subject.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

The problem I have with this argument is it can be used to justify anything, for example "I doubt a huge portion of players care about having deeper romances and that is only something a portion of the BSN wants".  We don't have all the information and we never will, but I bet BioWare has plenty of feedback from multiple places on the subject.

That's fair, but honestly I don't see the major backlash. Like in this thread, it's mostly just people saying they'd be alright with it and others saying "people might get mad, though". Which people? Where are they? I'm just not convinced there's genuinely that many people that care, especially since it's been done in other games just recently and nobody cared. People care if they don't get what they feel like is a fair amount of options, but I just don't really believe there's this huge demographic of people that care about bisexual vs set sexuality options to provide that.

[Sanunes]

That's fair, but honestly I don't see the major backlash. Like in this thread, it's mostly just people saying they'd be alright with it and others saying "people might get mad, though". Which people? Where are they? I'm just not convinced there's genuinely that many people that care, especially since it's been done in other games just recently and nobody cared. People care if they don't get what they feel like is a fair amount of options, but I just don't really believe there's this huge demographic of people that care about bisexual vs set sexuality options to provide that.

 

Which is fine.  My first post was more to do with comparing BioWare and Bethesda because it seems Bethesda is treated by kid gloves by a large portion of the gaming community, for I don't think any developer would be allowed to get away with releasing a game in the same state as Bethesda and still be praised for what they do.

[XxFAMOUSxX]

Just out of curiosity, what would be a non silly reason to play games like Mass Effect and Dragon Age?

Well for one, the story is very appealing. Unlike most games I come across the story isn't exactly it's strong suit. Gameplay mechanics aren't too bad either, I prefer them over a game lets say like the witcher 3 or elder scrolls (if we're doing comparisons). Overall the mass effect and dragon age games aren't bad games, two of my favorite. Never played a game for romantic purposes only.

[Super Drone]

What if Blackwall and Josephine were the only two LIs, but they got lots of depth and extra content for their romances? Considering that Blackwall was one of the core male options (as opposed to late additions like Cullen and Solas), he'd probably be the male romance. Personally, I like the idea of fewer romances with more content, but I'd be worried about being left with the ones I'm not keen on. For example, Miranda/Jacob probably would've been our romances for ME2 if they'd been cut down. Maybe Jacob would've been better developed if that was the case, but I'm not so sure.

 

I do agree that eight seems excessive, there was no need for five male romance options. I still haven't done Blackwall or Cullen yet. Likewise, ME2 felt excessive with 6 straight options (plus Kelly), especially since there were already three romances being carried over from ME1.

 

If they were going to only have two LIs, at least make them both Companions. Also, don't make one of them a total pacifist non-combatant who thinks people who use violence to solve problems are horrible, when basically all your possible backgrounds have to be people who use violence to solve problems.

 

Seriously, what was I suppose to like about Josephine?

[En Es Ef Dubyu]

I would love Garrus better if he wasn't written as an optional character. The only significant interaction you have with him was when he failed at building a case against Saren while the rest of the game made him relatively insignificant. Romancing him is another matter. I expected someone who is comfortable with his own skin, who become a bit more darker and broody after the things that happened to him and the romance would reveal a gentler side in him...  and not a devolved man-child who can't string sentences correctly to a girl who like him. I am very well aware how his awkwardness is so "cute, adorable, so funny, so endearing" but he is this grown adult male Turian who became involved with this alien girl, who he have a grand time freeloading off her and making her resolve his personal issues for free, and she suddenly wanted to have a relationship with him and he pretty much have to make her feel special and hope he would feel the same to her at the end of the day.... and every time Shepard say her feelings for him, he maneuvered himself around it and make jokes rather than being honest about it. You can't even have him being straight with you and say "I love you" until you have the Extended Cut DLC. 

 

I have a preference for FemShep/Kaidan romance because I like how their love story unfolds. Its intertwined with the main story. It wasn't a cute romance subplot where you get tiny cutscenes enough to  satisfy the fantasy of being in love with this one character you like. Their romance is a simple love story about two people who are in love with another but struggled with their responsibilities and fate that seem to tore them apart. His Shepard is this beautiful adventurous woman that he can't take his eyes off and he knew she was inappropriate for him because she was his commanding officer but he didn't care and went ahead and pursue her anyway. And for Shepard, she have feelings for him but can't exactly inflict herself on him but she have the tendency to show how she felt despite not actually saying it. She wanted him but she's afraid of saying it so Kaidan really was the person who close the gap between them. That's the basis of their romance in ME1. But then it got a bit serious, she have the tendency to risk her life recklessly for him and uses her rank to do so which was something that Kaidan hate especially since it got her killed and even TIM exploited it by luring Collectors to him. ME2 kinda prove that she doesn't need a man in her bed to make her relevant and she saved the galaxy either way. They both love each other but each knew it have a cost and they struggled with it personally and professionally and ME3 began their relationship arc almost immediately. Its a trilogy worth of heartbreak, death and trust issues. And one of the qualities I personally like about Kaidan was that he was really honest and really forward about his feelings. He doesn't lie or make jokes about it or walk around it like a minefield and Shepard didn't have to force it out of him since he readily said it to her face. He isn't her pet to be constantly pampered or someone to be pursued just to make them feel something back. He didn't exploit her feelings to make her do things for him. Their romance is simply about the strength of their love for each other and their relationship was complex just like any good romance novels and surprisingly it came from a video game. I love this, I want more of this.

 

I don't care how many types of romances and sexuality and fetish you can experience with your protagonist but as long as every bit of it was complex and worth my time, I'm a happy gamer.

 

 

 

He quit his job to join up on Normandy SR-1. He failed miserably as a vigilante mercenary and got the rest of his team killed and joined the Normandy SR-2. He spent six months as Reaper Advisor because he make his daddy talk to Primarch Fedorian and joined Shepard on the Normandy again because its now a habit. He was given the task coordinating the turian fleet for Hackett but its a meaningless job since it still happen regardless of his presence. And in Citadel DLC, he was shocked that everyone is paid except him. He is an unemployed Turian who was freeloading on Shepard's ship whose only reason to exist was to tag along every game. I wish there was an option for him to be a War Asset where he could stay and help his people but you can't. His only other narrative option is death during suicide mission. 

 

You can't romance Garrus without doing his loyalty quest. It is one of his romance requirement other than recruiting him in ME1. And compared to other LI characters, Garrus isn't romantically interested in either Shepard and always see them as friends first and would only consider the idea of "interspecies relationship" if you flirt him more than once. The world is about to end and you still have to consistently convince him that you're interested in him because apparently he have insecurities. He is not a virginal teenage boy who need to come out of his shell because he haven't found his right girl yet. Even the line "Some women find facial scars attractive." isn't specifically directed to FemShep but women in general... which includes Tali, who he always imagine her having the face of an angel underneath her mask, who have success at getting him after two conversation via coms and she didn't do any special favors for him. And he was comfortable enough to show off that he have the Commander Shepard as his girlfriend and shower her with all his attention and yet he didn't know how to say "I love you, Shepard." because the vids didn't prepare him for it. Instead of Shepard having to order him to kiss her like an idiot, I would want to know exactly where he was going with the relationship because it seems like I have to stab his liver with a dagger and twisting it because he have to be critically injured for him to actually say what he felt. Not even Aric Jorgan do this to me and they romance the same Jennifer Hale.

I'm sorry to sound abrasive here, but you complain far too much about Garrus not showing enough love to femShep that you sound hurt irl, and I think you actually like Garrus more than any love interest, way more than kaidan, but are afraid to admit it. 

[congokong]

In principle I agree.

But I can't help but suspect that if Bioware cut romances from previous games, it would have been the coolest ones that would go. I mean, if we had one male romance from ME2 it would probably be Jacob. Solas was one of the lowest priority romances of DAI

If Solas wasn't so damn picky because of his elfyness, Bioware might have put more resources in. Basically only 1/8th of players could potentially romance him.

 

 

To the OP, it is a good idea, and a preferable change of pace. Basically, ME1 quantity but with some actual content. It would be interesting to have situations like that on Virmire that are romance-specific; some sort of big event involving the LI that is unique to each one.

[Laughing_Man]

...it seems Bethesda is treated by kid gloves by a large portion of the gaming community, for I don't think any developer would be allowed to get away with releasing a game in the same state as Bethesda and still be praised for what they do.

 

Bethesda lost a lot of of their credit with their fans due to how they handled their "season pass" and what it actually included.

 

The expectations were always that they would provide the "heavy lifting", large story driven DLC's - maybe even another large expansion,

and the modding community will focus mainly on polishing the game, adding options, improving visuals, fixing some bugs, improving crafting, etc.

 

Just take a look at steam reviews for the FO4 season pass.

[Sanunes]

Bethesda lost a lot of of their credit with their fans due to how they handled their "season pass" and what it actually included.

 

The expectations were always that they would provide the "heavy lifting", large story driven DLC's - maybe even another large expansion,

and the modding community will focus mainly on polishing the game, adding options, improving visuals, fixing some bugs, improving crafting, etc.

 

Just take a look at steam reviews for the FO4 season pass.

 

Fair enough, I haven't looked for anything dealing with Fallout 4 and that is my mistake for I was really annoyed with how they handled Skyrim and patching it and refused to even look at Fallout 4 until it was really cheap and I was really bored.

[fizzypop]

The problem with this and its pretty obvious is the players. People would complain x or y is too ugly for them. So we would definitely need to restrict the romances to people who were deemed "pretty" enough. I would say it would be nearly impossible to include straight, bi, and gay options for everyone. If you did that would be at least 6 options you would have to account for and be able to provide for. Again they'd all have to meet some qualifications in terms of attractiveness. It would be far easier to do player sexual again which doesn't bother me, but seems to bother everyone else.

[Spirit Vanguard]

I like the idea of focused romances, but at the same time, I think I'm probably niche. I'd get a little bored with the one-size-fits-all milquetoast option. You can't please everyone, so the only thing left is to do something like that.

 

Milquetoast. Such a random word I never expected to see.

 

I would prefer they did either 4 bisexual LIs (2 of each ender) or they don't go beyond the 2/2/2 scheme, meaning 3 of each gender with 2 straight, 2 gay and 2 bi. I think they should balance the options and make it fair for everyone, but I think expanding past 6 LIs thins the content out too much, and honestly I think 4 was fine. The "all bisexual" approach is something other games use, also. Fallout 4 did this and I didn't notice a huge amount of backlash against the game. I don't think that many people actually care, probably just a few care very loudly. 

 

Personally I don't mind the all bi-4-romances (that way I could even romance my favorite LI no matter who I'm playing ) but I understand why it bothers some. For one it's not "realistic" and it doesn't present a character as actually gay. Instead it's more of an "anything goes" approach which chafes the idea and portrayal of sexual identity. If Bioware wants to be have real characters then their sexualities will be more definitive. That's why I like the system of 2/2/2 because it feels the most balanced while still offering some variety -- we can't forget that in DAI Cullen and Solas were added later and Solas' romantic content was minimal in comparison.

 

I should probably say that I'm very happy Cullen was added for a female character (despite race restriction) because he's my favorite of the male romances. I love Dorian, too, but I tend to prefer playing a female. Even so, I don't mind playing as different genders to romance the characters with that preference -- I play as both genders anyway -- and I like that LIs can be selective.

 

Fallout and Dragon Age have different histories with their fans so I wouldn't expected the same reaction or for them to adhere to a similar style of romance -- until 4 Fallout didn't have romance. All I know about Fallout 4 are the complaints about more male romances than female, as it was 4-3. There is also the issue that the all-bi-4 in DA2 had gendered content. Anders, specifically, had some troubling aspects to his romance that made the male/female approach unequal and I did not care for that at all, nor did many others.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Personally I don't mind the all bi-4-romances (that way I could even romance my favorite LI no matter who I'm playing ) but I understand why it bothers some. For one it's not "realistic" and it doesn't present a character as actually gay. Instead it's more of an "anything goes" approach which chafes the idea and portrayal of sexual identity. If Bioware wants to be have real characters then their sexualities will be more definitive. That's why I like the system of 2/2/2 because it feels the most balanced while still offering some variety -- we can't forget that in DAI Cullen and Solas were added later and Solas' romantic content was minimal in comparison.

 

I should probably say that I'm very happy Cullen was added for a female character (despite race restriction) because he's my favorite of the male romances. I love Dorian, too, but I tend to prefer playing a female. Even so, I don't mind playing as different genders to romance the characters with that preference -- I play as both genders anyway -- and I like that LIs can be selective.

 

Fallout and Dragon Age have different histories with their fans so I wouldn't expected the same reaction or for them to adhere to a similar style of romance -- until 4 Fallout didn't have romance. All I know about Fallout 4 are the complaints about more male romances than female, as it was 4-3. There is also the issue that the all-bi-4 in DA2 had gendered content. Anders, specifically, had some troubling aspects to his romance that made the male/female approach unequal and I did not care for that at all, nor did many others.

Bisexuals are "real" characters, just as much as any other sexuality. I've always thought it was silly that people get so hung up on the realism. Of course it's somewhat unlikely that you'd meet four bisexuals that are open to dating, but lots of things in these games are unlikely. The whole layout of one person making all the important decisions for multiple countries is unlikely. I don't see why people get so hung up on this, specifically. Homosexual identities could be included without being LIs. Dorian could have been in the game with the same story and not been an LI, for example. There's no reason they can't have gay character in Bioware games if they have 4 bi romances. 

 

I totally agree about how Anders was handled, though. I don't agree with locking out content like that, but I think there was no reason to lock it into a romance dialog at all. The information was something a friend could have comforted him on just as well as somebody that chose a flirt line once. They don't have to make dumb choices like that to offer bisexual choices.

 

I'm not really arguing for 4 bisexual options every time, though. Like I said before, I like the 2/2/2 set up just as well. I do think it would be better if they didn't make the choices off balance, though. They could use the extra budget to add more content for everyone. I think the Inquisition spread was way out of balance. Twice as many choices for one demographic seems like a poor choice of resource allocation, to me. 

[aoibhealfae]

This is entire debate is incredibly off-topic but I want to note a few things:

 

- He quit his job to join the Normandy, because he wanted Saren to face justice for his crimes. He couldn't do that with his job. The Normandy crew was doing exactly what he was hoping to do, of course he joins to help.

He screwed up his investigation on Saren because he is a Spectre. He quit because he thought being with another Spectre who was hunting him down is a better gig than doing paperwork. He also quit as a FU to his daddy because adulting is haaaaaaaard.

 

- He didn't 'fail' as a vigilante, he got betrayed and stabbed in the back by one of his own members. He joins the Normandy because there's a bigger threat to fight once again.

I am always amaze that average Garrusmancer never realize the existence of Mass Effect Homeworlds. Garrus launched an unprovoked holy war against the merc group on Omega. The people who he attempted to kill several times wanted revenge and the relatives of the people he killed wanted revenge and Garrus made himself a victim. Sidonis was physically and mentally tortured and Garrus wanted to execute him for surviving. Who is the bad guy now?

 

- He spent six months as a Reaper Advisor because maybe perhaps possibly he was part of the crew who stopped the Reaper's allies Saren from invading the Citadel and the Collectors from creating a human reaper? And once again; he joined the Normandy because he wanted to actively stop the biggest threat.

The people who made Thanix cannon have more authority and knowledge as a Reaper Advisor than Garrus would imagine himself to be.

 

- I'm fairly certain the "shocked because everyone was paid but him" is a joke.

Is there laughter? Or everyone just stare blankly because like "duh".

- Technically every companion ever simply exists to tag along. Cause otherwise the game would be pretty damn boring.

Everyone have legit reason to be on the ship and one of them is not mid-life crisis.

 

- You can't romance anyone without doing their personal quest in ME2, it's not exclusive to Garrus.

You can romance Kelly even before Suicide Mission happens. You can sleep with Jack before doing her loyalty mission. 

 

- He isn't interested in a relationship unless you flirt? *GASP* Who knew, some individuals don't like to take the first step/initiative!

OMG! SOMEONE DON'T LIKE WATCHING FEMSHEP BEING DESPERATE ABOUT WANTING TO HAVE SEX WITH GARRUS WHILE HE WAS TALKING ABOUT THIS AMAZING SEX WITH THIS TURIAN GIRL!!!!

 

There's a first move. There's the move where you're not a creep.

- Oh I don't think it's Garrus who has insecurities...

Garrus needed a manual to romance Shepard. You know anybody else in the game who have them to romance Shepard? None.

 

- Honest question; why do you equate everyone who doesn't (want to) make the first move with a 'virginal teenage boy'?

At what point did I say about Shepard making the first move to Garrus as an issue?

 

He's an adult male who have sexual experience with another female of his species. Shocker that he simply dial his casanova self to 0 when it involve Shepard. 
 

- Curse Garrus for making a funny joke of his almost lethal injuries! Gaaaah!

...meh?

 

- You don't really know what goes on between companions - including Tali and Garrus - when Shepard is not there, who knows how much they've been in contact ever since they met.

I don't even know how Shepard have sex with Garrus either because I can't see what's behind the fade outs. I don't even know how Shepard could handle having to constantly take antihistamines knowing that ingestion of dextro tissues could cause allergic reactions and anaphylactic shock even when I have trouble managing my allergies with dosages of Zyrtec. I have trouble imagining how Garrus would cause chaffing on Shepard's skin because I don't know what goes on between them. 

 

- Shocking news; aliens are not accustomed to human interactions and some people don't need to say "I love you" in order to love someone.

Shocker: People need genuine assurance that the people their love isn't just playing them for sucker especially with the guy happens to have long history of avoiding responsibilities and any hint of commitment.

 

- Not every person blurts out their emotions and what they feel at all times, shocking, I know. Garrus genuinely loves Shepard, regardless of whether or not he vocally expresses this.

 

This is an example;

Shepard: The only thing that made leaving Earth bearable was knowing you were out there somewhere.

Garrus: I felt the same way. The worst part about the galaxy going to hell would've been never getting to see you again.

Then she drop the L-bomb.
Shepard: Well, here I am. Exactly where I want to be. I love you, Garrus Vakarian.
and this is how Garrus swerve..

Garrus: Wow. The vids Joker gave me… well, they never got this far. There was the part about sleeping together, but this...I don't exactly know what to do...

Oh, he's studious about f*cking her but not knowing how to say it back... .... ....  and too much "....."  so Shepard came to rescue.

Shepard: You grab the girl and kiss her like you mean it.
Garrus: That I can do.
Shepard: And rather well. Who needs a vid when you've got me?

 

Garrus and Shepard talk a lot in and out of their romance, with or without romance. Garrus always turned to Shepard to talk about some identity crisis or morality of the situation he was in. He doesn't have a lot of foresight but he isn't stupid or completely oblivious either. Why would he took pains avoiding talking about something that have a lot of meaning for both of them unless he was having second thoughts. He jokes about having babies and being dead in heaven but still a chicken about the L-word? The DLC only work if he was the endgame squadmate... so he's going to leave you hanging out until you die? Its the end of the world, Garrus Vakarian. Fangirls or not, its a d1ck move on his part.

 

[Oldren Shepard]

I'm commander Shepard and  approve this topic.

[Shechinah]

aoibhealfae, will you be returning to my post as well in this discussion? I'm asking so I'll know whether to wait for it or address some of the points you've made now since not all of them were things I'd touched on previously.

[Spirit Vanguard]

Bisexuals are "real" characters, just as much as any other sexuality. I've always thought it was silly that people get so hung up on the realism. Of course it's somewhat unlikely that you'd meet four bisexuals that are open to dating, but lots of things in these games are unlikely. The whole layout of one person making all the important decisions for multiple countries is unlikely. I don't see why people get so hung up on this, specifically. Homosexual identities could be included without being LIs. Dorian could have been in the game with the same story and not been an LI, for example. There's no reason they can't have gay character in Bioware games if they have 4 bi romances. 

 

I totally agree about how Anders was handled, though. I don't agree with locking out content like that, but I think there was no reason to lock it into a romance dialog at all. The information was something a friend could have comforted him on just as well as somebody that chose a flirt line once. They don't have to make dumb choices like that to offer bisexual choices.

 

I'm not really arguing for 4 bisexual options every time, though. Like I said before, I like the 2/2/2 set up just as well. I do think it would be better if they didn't make the choices off balance, though. They could use the extra budget to add more content for everyone. I think the Inquisition spread was way out of balance. Twice as many choices for one demographic seems like a poor choice of resource allocation, to me. 

 

Pretty much that, yeah. It's more the idea that to umbrella everything/everyone isn't appealing. Representation of difference is what people want rather than the harem-feel of everyone can love the player. For as much as the game itself is unrealistic that only means that more realistic aspects need to be in it. I think Bioware is trying to include more side/non-romancable characters that have diverse identities -- it's very true that they don't have to be an LI, or even just a fling, to be gay. They've already featured Branka/Hespith, Celene/Briala. At the very least, I feel they're improving. 

 

That's another of the disconcerting issues with Anders' romance. They really didn't think it through when they wrote that part of his story the way they did. 

 

Sometimes I wonder if the 6-4 ratio of romances for female-male player character in DAI might be a way of Bioware overcompensating for the ME3 fiasco with fem Shep... Making it all even is obviously Ideal. It's just a fact that not everyone will be pleased. It just feels stupidly ridiculous when the complaints are superficial -- like the female LIs "aren't hot."   Like I said, though, I'm fine with either way. As long as it's not a repeat of ME1/3, where the male romances for a female character are scarce.   

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Pretty much that, yeah. It's more the idea that to umbrella everything/everyone isn't appealing. Representation of difference is what people want rather than the harem-feel of everyone can love the player. For as much as the game itself is unrealistic that only means that more realistic aspects need to be in it. I think Bioware is trying to include more side/non-romancable characters that have diverse identities -- it's very true that they don't have to be an LI, or even just a fling, to be gay. They've already featured Branka/Hespith, Celene/Briala. At the very least, I feel they're improving. 

 

That's another of the disconcerting issues with Anders' romance. They really didn't think it through when they wrote that part of his story the way they did. 

 

Sometimes I wonder if the 6-4 ratio of romances for female-male player character in DAI might be a way of Bioware overcompensating for the ME3 fiasco with fem Shep... Making it all even is obviously Ideal. It's just a fact that not everyone will be pleased. It just feels stupidly ridiculous when the complaints are superficial -- like the female LIs "aren't hot."   Like I said, though, I'm fine with either way. As long as it's not a repeat of ME1/3, where the male romances for a female character are scarce.   

Well, I'm a gay male, so in ME 1-2 romances didn't exist for me. I just played single until ME3, where Kaidan finally decided he liked dudes. But I don't expect them to "overcompensate" for my demographic getting shafted (or not lol) in the past, I just hope they'll eventually make a game where the choices are balanced. Although, that's never happened yet. Even DA2 had Sebastian. It seems like ME favors straight men and DA favors straight women, as a general. I agree complaints just about character not being hot enough, or even that they want x race romances, or x in game beliefs for their romance, are.. not really grounded as the offerings actually being unfair.

 

Back on the Anders issue, it usually annoys me when they railroad stuff that makes sense for friendship paths into relationship only info. The relationship between Anders and Karl didn't need to be a secret to everyone except guys that flirted with him. Jack's platonic relationship is another good example of one that was made a mess by the romance. I also really hate that Solas will only talk about vallaslin with a romanced female character. It makes total sense for his character that he would tell a friend this and offer to remove it. He used to do it for literally anyone before the veil. I think it's mostly a trend of putting stuff in the relationship that would have made more sense to be general information.

[Hazegurl]

I agree OP, less is more.  Give us three or four LIs and make them available to everyone. 

 

For DAI the core romances should have been (Solas, Cullen, Sera, and Cass), all available to both genders with Solas gated for elves only and Cullen gated for humans and elves only.

[aoibhealfae]

I'm sorry to sound abrasive here, but you complain far too much about Garrus not showing enough love to femShep that you sound hurt irl, and I think you actually like Garrus more than any love interest, way more than kaidan, but are afraid to admit it. 

 

My head hurt thinking that. 

 

Well, let see.... I like Garrus at first time I play the game some years back, I romanced him once out of curiosity but I wasn't impressed by it. I don't immediately caught fancy not even his Garrus voice since his nasally voice mods gives me migraine. I still play the trilogy every once in a while and frankly he's the most static character in ME2 and ME3. But what was interesting is that whenever I say something that sound remotely unfavorable to Garrus... a lot of people seem to think it was always a personal attack toward them.. even if it was about something from the game or his comic chapter.

While I don't agree with statement that "he is the best LI ever for FemShep" without eye-rolling and wincing at all the cringe-inducing badly written dialogues, what I can really agree was, "Garrus is the best Male LI ever for fanservicing".... its how the romance exist in the first place.

[Toasted Llama]

 

This is entire debate is incredibly off-topic but I want to note a few things:

 

- He quit his job to join the Normandy, because he wanted Saren to face justice for his crimes. He couldn't do that with his job. The Normandy crew was doing exactly what he was hoping to do, of course he joins to help.

He screwed up his investigation on Saren because he is a Spectre. He quit because he thought being with another Spectre who was hunting him down is a better gig than doing paperwork. He also quit as a FU to his daddy because adulting is haaaaaaaard.

 

- He didn't 'fail' as a vigilante, he got betrayed and stabbed in the back by one of his own members. He joins the Normandy because there's a bigger threat to fight once again.

I am always amaze that average Garrusmancer never realize the existence of Mass Effect Homeworlds. Garrus launched an unprovoked holy war against the merc group on Omega. The people who he attempted to kill several times wanted revenge and the relatives of the people he killed wanted revenge and Garrus made himself a victim. Sidonis was physically and mentally tortured and Garrus wanted to execute him for surviving. Who is the bad guy now?

 

- He spent six months as a Reaper Advisor because maybe perhaps possibly he was part of the crew who stopped the Reaper's allies Saren from invading the Citadel and the Collectors from creating a human reaper? And once again; he joined the Normandy because he wanted to actively stop the biggest threat.

The people who made Thanix cannon have more authority and knowledge as a Reaper Advisor than Garrus would imagine himself to be.

 

- I'm fairly certain the "shocked because everyone was paid but him" is a joke.

Is there laughter? Or everyone just stare blankly because like "duh".

- Technically every companion ever simply exists to tag along. Cause otherwise the game would be pretty damn boring.

Everyone have legit reason to be on the ship and one of them is not mid-life crisis.

 

- You can't romance anyone without doing their personal quest in ME2, it's not exclusive to Garrus.

You can romance Kelly even before Suicide Mission happens. You can sleep with Jack before doing her loyalty mission. 

 

- He isn't interested in a relationship unless you flirt? *GASP* Who knew, some individuals don't like to take the first step/initiative!

OMG! SOMEONE DON'T LIKE WATCHING FEMSHEP BEING DESPERATE ABOUT WANTING TO HAVE SEX WITH GARRUS WHILE HE WAS TALKING ABOUT THIS AMAZING SEX WITH THIS TURIAN GIRL!!!!

 

There's a first move. There's the move where you're not a creep.

- Oh I don't think it's Garrus who has insecurities...

Garrus needed a manual to romance Shepard. You know anybody else in the game who have them to romance Shepard? None.

 

- Honest question; why do you equate everyone who doesn't (want to) make the first move with a 'virginal teenage boy'?

At what point did I say about Shepard making the first move to Garrus as an issue?

 

He's an adult male who have sexual experience with another female of his species. Shocker that he simply dial his casanova self to 0 when it involve Shepard. 
 

- Curse Garrus for making a funny joke of his almost lethal injuries! Gaaaah!

...meh?

 

- You don't really know what goes on between companions - including Tali and Garrus - when Shepard is not there, who knows how much they've been in contact ever since they met.

I don't even know how Shepard have sex with Garrus either because I can't see what's behind the fade outs. I don't even know how Shepard could handle having to constantly take antihistamines knowing that ingestion of dextro tissues could cause allergic reactions and anaphylactic shock even when I have trouble managing my allergies with dosages of Zyrtec. I have trouble imagining how Garrus would cause chaffing on Shepard's skin because I don't know what goes on between them. 

 

- Shocking news; aliens are not accustomed to human interactions and some people don't need to say "I love you" in order to love someone.

Shocker: People need genuine assurance that the people their love isn't just playing them for sucker especially with the guy happens to have long history of avoiding responsibilities and any hint of commitment.

 

- Not every person blurts out their emotions and what they feel at all times, shocking, I know. Garrus genuinely loves Shepard, regardless of whether or not he vocally expresses this.

 

This is an example;

Shepard: The only thing that made leaving Earth bearable was knowing you were out there somewhere.

Garrus: I felt the same way. The worst part about the galaxy going to hell would've been never getting to see you again.

Then she drop the L-bomb.
Shepard: Well, here I am. Exactly where I want to be. I love you, Garrus Vakarian.
and this is how Garrus swerve..

Garrus: Wow. The vids Joker gave me… well, they never got this far. There was the part about sleeping together, but this...I don't exactly know what to do...

Oh, he's studious about f*cking her but not knowing how to say it back... .... ....  and too much "....."  so Shepard came to rescue.

Shepard: You grab the girl and kiss her like you mean it.
Garrus: That I can do.
Shepard: And rather well. Who needs a vid when you've got me?

 

Garrus and Shepard talk a lot in and out of their romance, with or without romance. Garrus always turned to Shepard to talk about some identity crisis or morality of the situation he was in. He doesn't have a lot of foresight but he isn't stupid or completely oblivious either. Why would he took pains avoiding talking about something that have a lot of meaning for both of them unless he was having second thoughts. He jokes about having babies and being dead in heaven but still a chicken about the L-word? The DLC only work if he was the endgame squadmate... so he's going to leave you hanging out until you die? Its the end of the world, Garrus Vakarian. Fangirls or not, its a d1ck move on his part.

 

 

 

- Garrus didn't screw up, arbitrary bureaucracy was holding him back. The only way to get around that is by quitting. And I fail to see how helping a Spectre take down a rogue Spectre who allied himself with machines who want to see every organic dead as opposed to doing nothing but ridiculous paperwork is a bad thing.

 

- I'm not a Garrusmancer at all, but ok. Are you seriously defending criminals now? Should Garrus just sit back and watch as the Merc groups continously harm innocents and wreak havoc? "Unprovoked holy war", yeah, how dare he try and stop criminals from harming innocents. Sidonis thought his live was more valuable than that of 8 others, all of whom he fought alongside with. Can't really blame Garrus for holding a grudge because of it.

 

- Scientists who built a fancy canon from debris are more qualified to advise on Reapers than someone who has faced said Reapers, tools, tactics and minions. Right. That's logical. Somehow.

 

- Do you need a laughing track now for every single joke being made in order for it to be a true joke?

 

- Because Garrus is definitely having a mid-life crisis. Hmmmhm. Absolutely. Yup. It has absolutely nothing to do with him wanting to stop the galaxy from getting destroyed, nope, nu-uh.

 

- You can sleep with both Kelly and Jack while still romancing someone else. Reasons being: Kelly is hardly a romance option at all. Romancing her doesn't even give you the paramour achievement. And the sex with Jack is CASUAL. That means no feelings are involved, no romance. You cannot romance her before her loyalty mission. Period.

 

- Good to know flirting equals desperate for sex now.

 

- Yeah I distinctly remember the moment where Shepard gave Garrus that 100 page manual to re-- oh wait no that never happened.

 

- So having sex before must mean you're completely experienced in everything relationship related ever?

 

- You not knowing how they can have sex is an argument for.... what?

 

- People can express their feelings in many ways, not just by saying "I love you". Why is it ok for you to want reassurance, but not ok for Garrus to not being fond of saying "I love you"?

 

- In that example Garrus literally says the worst thing about everything going to **** is not seeing Shepard again. Not losing his family, not losing his friends, not everyone else dying, not all the pain and suffering, no, it's Shepard who is the most important to him. How can you not get that he cares GREATLY about Shepard?

You don't need to say "the L-word" in order to love someone. You definitely don't need to say it in order to prove you love someone. Actions speak louder than words.

 

If you don't like to romance Garrus and want someone to say "I love you" to your Shepard, that's totally fine, you be you and go romance that person. But why do you have to drag Garrus through the goddamn mud because he doesn't fit your idea of the ideal romance?

[Pillemarisk]

My sources tell me there will in fact only be one romance in the game.

 

Ryder self-love.

[Dalinne]

My head hurt thinking that. 

 

Well, let see.... I like Garrus at first time I play the game some years back, I romanced him once out of curiosity but I wasn't impressed by it. I don't immediately caught fancy not even his Garrus voice since his nasally voice mods gives me migraine. I still play the trilogy every once in a while and frankly he's the most static character in ME2 and ME3. But what was interesting is that whenever I say something that sound remotely unfavorable to Garrus... a lot of people seem to think it was always a personal attack toward them.. even if it was about something from the game or his comic chapter.

While I don't agree with statement that "he is the best LI ever for FemShep" without eye-rolling and wincing at all the cringe-inducing badly written dialogues, what I can really agree was, "Garrus is the best Male LI ever for fanservicing".... its how the romance exist in the first place.

 

OMG

Is there any special requirement or rule to hate Garrus in order to like Kaidan and viceversa?

I freaking love Kaidan. He is one of my favourite human characters in Mass Effect series BY FAR. The most consistent, the best arc, that sense of humour in the ME3. However, I always felt it doesn't work romantically for my FShepards. Horizon is always a dealbreaker for me. You can't trust your freaking girlfriend or even give her something more than a email??? ( I blame the writing. Jeez, Liara had the LoSB, The Arrival would have been great not like a solo mission but with the Virmire Survivor. Whatever). Since a long time  I prefer Kaidan as a friend with my FSheps in the three games.

 

On the other hand, with MSheps Kaidan is their true love. Waiting for it, it helps. Horizon seems more like the reaction would have a person who was secretly in love with you without even realizing it. It's always nice to find love in the middle of the Apocalypse, and for once, my MShep loosen up a little.

 

I respect all canons, but in my books Garrus is the best romance for my FSheps. My Shepards don't need a guy saying "I love you" in every single conversation. I like more when you know it by gestures and reactions. He gives Shepard always a way out from the relationship and that doesn't mean he doesn't care, it means he knows he cares but he doesn't know what Shepard feels and he respects enough their friendship to not jeopardize it. Hell, all the fling thing, the supposedly one-night-stand seems like an excuse for both, Shepard and Garrus, to be involved. 

 

For godshake, one of Garrus' motto is "I like to expect the worst, there is a small chance I'll be pleasantly surprised". Of course he expects Shepard doesn't feel the same way, he is always expecting a rejection until the date on top of the praesidium.

 

However, there is NO CANON for any romance. All of us have our own reasons why X is the Shepard's true love not like Y or W or Z. We make our own canon, we don't need to impose our canon on others. I respect why you think Kaidan is the best romance and I understand it... regarding YOUR canon.

But in my canon these scenes beats every other option:

 

 

 

 

[Spirit Vanguard]

Well, I'm a gay male, so in ME 1-2 romances didn't exist for me. I just played single until ME3, where Kaidan finally decided he liked dudes. But I don't expect them to "overcompensate" for my demographic getting shafted (or not lol) in the past, I just hope they'll eventually make a game where the choices are balanced. Although, that's never happened yet. Even DA2 had Sebastian. It seems like ME favors straight men and DA favors straight women, as a general. I agree complaints just about character not being hot enough, or even that they want x race romances, or x in game beliefs for their romance, are.. not really grounded as the offerings actually being unfair.

 

Back on the Anders issue, it usually annoys me when they railroad stuff that makes sense for friendship paths into relationship only info. The relationship between Anders and Karl didn't need to be a secret to everyone except guys that flirted with him. Jack's platonic relationship is another good example of one that was made a mess by the romance. I also really hate that Solas will only talk about vallaslin with a romanced female character. It makes total sense for his character that he would tell a friend this and offer to remove it. He used to do it for literally anyone before the veil. I think it's mostly a trend of putting stuff in the relationship that would have made more sense to be general information.

 

Yeah, ouch.  ME certainly doesn't have a history of balanced romances -- it makes even less sense when DA has been offering same-sex parings since the beginning. I felt ME might've perhaps favored those who like females. ME1 had Liara for femShep, and Kelly in 2 to a lesser extent, and then 2 more females in 3 while losing 2 males -- and then all the LIs for a maleShep...  I'm just fortunate that I actually liked Kaidan and got to carry that relationship through the trilogy.

 

I place Sebastian in the group with Kelly, Allers and Harding. They have romantic content, but they're not "really romances" -- even though Sebastian was included in the Keep as one for DAI. Most don't like his limited romance, and honestly, I don't understand why Bioware continues with these barely-LIs when people are hardly ever satisfied with them. It seems like wasted energy on a half-attempted relationship.

 

The romances are a chance to learn more, special details about characters, but it has never made sense to withhold certain information that isn't isolated to romance. The vallaslin thing is borderline idiotic -- especially since Corypheus mentions it to a Dalish in the final battle... If I hadn't played a female elf and romanced Solas the first time I would've been SO confused.

 

I love Anders (obviously ) and his romance, but it felt messy. I posted something about it on another thread:

 

I'm beginning to feel the same myself.

On the one hand, I understand why Anders would use Karl as a gauge for a male Hawke. He even says after you flirt with him the first time (I think) that he's not used to meeting men who flirt with other men so openly. But at the same time women being with other women doesn't appear to be as stigmatized, or need reasoning. As much as I really do love what Anders says, I couldn't help feeling like "you don't need to justify/explain yourself about liking men." I had only encountered this line when I accidentally flirted with him more than I meant to as a male    -- which then made me want to romance him with a male Hawke.

The difference of the two romances is what bothers more, I think. Why does Anders never mention a fear of hurting Garrett like he does, rather repetitively, to Marian?

 

Considering Anders' personality and his history in the Circle, it's perhaps reasonable that he wouldn't talk about Karl to a friend strictly in the sense that it's intimate information that he doesn't share easily -- considering that he says love is something the templars use as a means of control, I could see why he'd be more guarded just on that front. (And by extension, maybe Jack too.) Somebody wouldn't necessarily tell a friend what they'd tell a trusted lover. But even so, it changes almost everything once we learn about their past together. It all says so much more than simply "Anders also likes men" and I'm not sure they realized it at the time.

 

I'm certainly not picky about the race/appearance of an LI but I can understand why some people want what they haven't yet been able to have. It can just get overwhelming. All I know is that I like the character first and foremost; that they happen to be drell or elven is a bonus. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I agree OP, less is more.  Give us three or four LIs and make them available to everyone. 

 

For DAI the core romances should have been (Solas, Cullen, Sera, and Cass), all available to both genders with Solas gated for elves only and Cullen gated for humans and elves only.

That is a terrible idea. For starters, it leaves female Dwarves and Qunari with zero male options. Not to mention it screws everyone who liked Blackwall, Dorian, Josephine, and The Iron Bull over. I wouldn't be romancing anyone in your line up. 

 

If they were going to only have two LIs, at least make them both Companions. Also, don't make one of them a total pacifist non-combatant who thinks people who use violence to solve problems are horrible, when basically all your possible backgrounds have to be people who use violence to solve problems.

 

Seriously, what was I suppose to like about Josephine?

Where does Josephine say everyone who uses violence is horrible? I'll answer that for you: Never. Just because she doesn't like violence and prefers to seek out nonviolent solutions doesn't mean she hates people who uses violence and knows sometimes it is unfortunately necessary. For example her best friend is Leliana and her answer to half the problems is kill something, and she works with the Inquisition who is fighting Corypheus and his forces. 

[MrBSN2017]

Quality over quantity.
Learning has occurred.