252 réponses à ce sujet

[Shechinah]

With a puppy beside me, I will note that I'll only be responding to things that I feel I have not addressed in one of my previous posts.
 

I actually wrote a reply while writing another but accidentally deleted it but I'm happy to entertain you this fine morning.
 
Shepard rescue him from the Med bay. Shepard help him kill Saleon. Shepard rescue him from Omega. Shepard help him deal with Sidonis. Shepard work hard to upgrade the ship with a giant gun for him to play with. Shepard ensure his survival in Suicide Mission. Shepard pick him up from Menae.  There's a lot of work on Shepard's part was it?

 
By medic-bay did you mean the medical clinic on the Citadel in Mass Effect 1? Shepard went there, the criminal noticed Shepard in the door, took the doctor hostage and Garrus took advantage of the distraction to shot him in the head so he wouldn’t be holding the doctor. The firefight against the last three began after that. I also think Shepard comes to the clinic in search of Garrus and not because Garrus asked Shepard to but I may be misremembering.

So Garrus asks Shepard for help in ensuring Dr. Saleon does not escape justice one way or another. How is he selfish for hoping that an agent of the law would help him stop a dangerous criminal that had been responsible for intentionally causing the deaths of other people through indifference and neglect?

Garrus did not call Shepard from Omega to ask for help; Shepard came to Omega in search of Archangel and willingly involved herself before she or Garrus knew the other was even involved. I’ve mentioned in my previous post that Garrus did the majority of work when it came to his loyalty quest such as by finding the information by himself and making the arrangement by himself.
 
Why is it bad that Garrus puts forth the thanix cannon upgrade to boost their firepower especially when it turns out said upgrade saves lives? He’s trying to contribute to the mission and the chances of success. Is Tali selfish for putting forth shield upgrades? Is Jacob selfish for putting forth the armor plating upgrade?

 

Are you saying that Shepard put unjust work into keeping her squadmates alive during the Suicide Mission and sje should have barreled through without properly planning out the mission by using her specialists to their best ability?

Garrus did not call Shepard from Menae to ask for help; Shepard came to Menae of her own volition to look for turian aid and did not expect to find Garrus there as evident by her tone and the fact that she says she thought he’d be on Palaven. After meeting, Garrus proceed to lead Shepard through a battlefield because Shepard needed to speak to the Primarch. Literally, the first thing he says and does is to help Shepard; “I’m on it, Shepard, we’ll find you the Primarch.”
 

So, by "casual to romantic" relationship, you meant Garrus was a friend who turned into Shepard's f*ck buddy in ME2? And that Shepard was lying when she said he wasn't a distraction. Their interactions in 2185 wasn't serious for both of them? That it was a joke for both of them? And here I thought I was too harsh on Garrus.

A lot of couple don't read minds either. Garrus isn't expressive and you can't read his face and his voice is another matter especially with all the noise in it. You can have Shepard being in love so ardently and openly toward Garrus but he would maneuver his way around to avoid having to mirror her anticipation by focusing on Shepard being the center of attention. No need to talk about his feelings, just let him do the talking and make you feel better, make you feel wanted, make you feel needed, make you feel right, make you feel important, make you feel special. That was what he does best actually.

You remember how in my previous post that I said that it was a casual relationship that grew into a romantic relationship over the course of Mass Effect 2?

 

You remember how in my previous post that Garrus does say how he feels about Shepard and their relationship in Mass Effect 3 such as by saying that it’ll take more than the Reapers to come between the two of them in their first scene together on the Normandy? How is he not being expressive? He’s saying that not even an invading force of incredibly powerful and advanced eldritch horrors on a galaxy cleansing spree can come between his and Shepard’s relationship.
 

But Tali's choice... that'll be harder to get over. She was a good friend. I never did see her face, but I always imagined there was... What do humans call it? An angel behind that mask. And now I hope she's resting with them."[/size]

 

Thank you for the quote but I still don't have the context of whether or not this occurs after or before the scene where it shows them as a couple so for all I know, he is referring to her as a good friend and speaking fondly of her in a way that is not necessarily romantic.

 

Note: I'm a bit ill so there may be misspellings that went unnoticed.

[Dalinne]

 

Thank you for the quote but I still don't have the context of whether or not this occurs after or before the scene where it shows them as a couple so for all I know, he is referring to her as a good friend and speaking fondly of her in a way that is not necessarily romantic.

 

I can give you the context aoibhealfae didn't give: freaking TALI'S SUICIDE!!!     

 

Eh, but Garrus don't love FShep because he says a friend of his who has commited suicide was a angel.

Spirits.

[Toasted Llama]

Eh, but Garrus don't love FShep because he says a friend of his who has commited suicide was a angel.

Spirits.

 

Remember kids, don't mourn the loss of a close friend, your wife/girlfriend might get jealous!

[Hazegurl]

As I said, an absolutely terrible idea. I am extremely thankful you are not a Bioware dev. 

lol! I'm thankful I'm not a BW dev.  I couldn't imagine working for EAware.

[Hazegurl]

No. Just criticizing bad romance writing in a romance thread that many claim it have depth when it have none. The only depth was the black hole of his fandom devotion to him. I don't get attached to a fictional character that it stop me from looking at them objectively. And I criticize Liara just as well particularly about her ME1 romance but I have to give credit to her writers who improve her characterization and romance in later games.

 

There's a lot of ways that I think he was sabotaged by the fandom who demanded him as an LI. He was written as a troubled guy in ME1 with a naive outlook to the world but you can alter parts of his personality and made him rethink of his life again and make him grow up. Shepard was allowed to disagree with him and make him question his own world-view. Then he suffered a drastic shift in characterization to accommodate his romantic interactions which have no real effect to the larger narrative. He became stock trigger-happy space batman character and a filler character symbolizing 'badassery'. Constantly churning crappy one-liners with no relevance. There was his preexisting prejudice against Quarian and Krogan which wasn't expanded further because racism isn't a likable trait in a fan-favourite. He exist merely because Shepard ensures his survival and he stagnates the remainder of the game. The romance suppressed his personal narrative and characterization even more rather than expanding it.

 

Shepard suddenly have very limited character agency in favor for a self-insert Sue with a turian kink. You're stuck with vanilla paragon or renegade romance dialogues that have no real consequences to how he perceive your Shepard. You could romance him before or after suicide mission. Have him die during suicide mission or survive. Lock-in romance scene at the Normandy or at the Citadel. Have him stay or make him leave so you could wake up alone. Take the interrupt or do not take the interrupt while talking to him at London. Spend more money on DLCs to add some romance content. But nothing else.. not even a chance to gift him turian chocolate.. and its a shame that if you don't romance either of them in the playthrough, you can't  encourage or discourage his romance from Tali like you can with Ken and Gabby, and Ashley and Vega. Heck, you flirt heavily with Vega than you can with Garrus.

 

I do think it was amazing that I do get branded as a hater when I merely describe the flaws and the badly written narrative that exist in his narrative in the game. Regardless whether my opinion is unpopular, Garrus don't need anyone to defend him from anything if he's really what everyone says he was. Romance preference is subjective after all.

I agree with almost all of this.  Although I blame BW more than the fandom, because they decide to cater to them rather than allowing their characters to develop naturally.  It's usually the most popular characters who end up with the worst development over time because they exist to make the player happy and nothing more.  Sadly, Garrus falls under that category. He's meant to be your badass BFF with his "Just like old times." crack, even if you barely took him anywhere and hated aliens in ME1.  Liara also suffers the same shift. She goes from stumbling nerd to hardcore Info broker.  Wrex seems to have remained the same but I credit it more to him not being a squad mate in 2 & 3. Tali seems the same.  It's just the two most popular companions (Garrus and Liara) who get transformed into badass hanger ons.  I can't really judge the Garrus romance, I stopped playing a FemShep half way through one,  and I wouldn't want the power to prevent companions from hooking up with each other. If Garrus and Tali are not romanced, they should get together.  As should Ken and Gabby, and Vega and Ash.  I sort of hated that Shepard is allowed to stick his nose in their affairs so I'm glad Tali and Garrus hook up without Shepard discouraging it.

 

@Shechinah, I love that idea.  A renegade LI who develops based on the choices s/he is given in the story along with a chance to convert the player to their side et al. sign me up.

[Shechinah]

@Shechinah, I love that idea.  A renegade LI who develops based on the choices s/he is given in the story along with a chance to convert the player to their side et al. sign me up.

 
I also love a good cross-faction romance or foemance. So a good amount of Foe Yay could be something I might like; http://tvtropes.org/...php/Main/FoeYay

[straykat]

I like those hookups. Since I don't romance any of them, it works for me. They should've done that with Liara and Feron too. They had a cool story together in the comics.

[Shechinah]

I like those hookups. Since I don't romance any of them, it works for me. They should've done that with Liara and Feron too. They had a cool story together in the comics.

 

I always found it wierd that out of all of the potential non-player pairings, Liara and Feron are the ones that don't hook up. I genuinely thought they'd be a good couple and I even thought that it seemed hinted at in "Lair of the Shadow Broker" that they had feelings for each other but that Liara did not wish to act on it at the time because of what Feron at been through.

[TheRatPack55]

I like those hookups. Since I don't romance any of them, it works for me. They should've done that with Liara and Feron too. They had a cool story together in the comics.

 

I gotta say I don't pay enough attention to those flavor-relationships to really care, I'm usually too engaged in whatever romance I'm personally pursuing, but they do seem to ****** a lot of people off, so I'm kinda thinking BW should drop them. They're just three lines of dialogue deep anyway, not much point. They could add those three lines to the actual romances.

 

Still, I'm fine either way.

[straykat]

I always found it wierd that out of all of the potential non-player pairings, Liara and Feron are the ones that don't hook up. I genuinely thought they'd be a good couple and I even thought that it seemed hinted at in "Lair of the Shadow Broker" that they had feelings for each other but that Liara did not wish to act on it at the time because of what Feron at been through.

 

In the comic, it's funny, because the artist commentary said he did convey it that way. In his mind, it was a "thing". So we're not alone, I guess.

 

 

I gotta say I don't pay enough attention to those flavor-relationships to really care, I'm usually too engaged in whatever romance I'm personally pursuing, but they do seem to ****** a lot of people off, so I'm kinda thinking BW should drop them. They're just three lines of dialogue deep anyway, not much point. They could add those three lines to the actual romances.

 

Still, I'm fine either way.

 

I just think it adds a little life to things. It seems harmless to me, if you don't even romance those characters.

[TheRatPack55]

 

I just think it adds a little life to things. It seems harmless to me, if you don't even romance those characters.

 

 

It's harmless to me too, I certainly don't mind. It just seems that it's a tiny thing that unnecessarily stirs up controversy, as one can see in the "I sold Fenris into slavery so that he wouldn't hook up with Isabela" posts.

 

But then again, maybe it's a good thing to bother people who would think that way, cause, yikes. (I sold him once to amuse Anders, now that's a proper reason!  )

[straykat]

It's harmless to me too, I certainly don't mind. It just seems that it's a tiny thing that unnecessarily stirs up controversy, as one can see in the "I sold Fenris into slavery so that he wouldn't hook up with Isabela" posts.

 

But then again, maybe it's a good thing to bother people who would think that way, cause, yikes. (I sold him once to amuse Anders, now that's a proper reason!  )

 

Yeah, that surprised me. First I ever heard of it. lol.... I can't believe someone prefers slavery to this.

[En Es Ef Dubyu]

 

In the comic, it's funny, because the artist commentary said he did convey it that way. In his mind, it was a "thing". So we're not alone, I guess.

 

 

 

I just think it adds a little life to things. It seems harmless to me, if you don't even romance those characters.

 

Well I can certainly see where fans would be uncomfortable. Particularly when the writer is pushing hard for the npcs to hook up, you do know that the writer who wrote Fleet and Flotilla is the one who pushed for the hook-up and wasn't a fan of femShep paired with garrus in the first place because how can a turian find a human attractive, he can only find blue humans (nope Turian fems don't have a fringe like asari) or purple humans (nope quarians resemble human females more than turian females) attractive  . So maybe some fans, they're out there, felt BioWare was slapping femShep in the face again.

 

 

^The bolded gives me an excuse to post this vid in all its hilarity (lol ME mentioned twice in it 0:09 and 7:32):

 

 

 

 

Anyway....

 

Doesn't help that Jacob had a thing with the perfect Miranda and cheats with a new woman

 

Thane is still madly in love with Irikah

 

And well...

 

MaleShep is lucky all his LI- Liara, Ashley, Miranda, Jack, Kelly, and Tali- are only into him first and foremost.

 

But like you said if it don't affect your LI who gaf. I personally could not stand garrus and I feel very uncomfortable with turians. In my opinion they are smug, bigoted, and have a very cold and calculated nature towards other species they deem inferior to themselves. Doesn't help that it was established in the Citadel dlc and comics that they wanted to client race or in other cases enslave humanity. Just my opinion, but they are a shade above batarians given the entirety of what I now know about what they planned for humanity. And yes I know, not all turians or batarians are like that. Do you see batarian love...nope.

[Dalinne]

Well I can certainly see where fans would be uncomfortable. Particularly when the writer is pushing hard for the npcs to hook up, you do know that the writer who wrote Fleet and Flotilla is the one who pushed for the hook-up and wasn't a fan of femShep paired with garrus in the first place because how can a turian find a human attractive, he can only find blue humans (nope Turian fems don't have a fringe like asari) or purple humans (nope quarians resemble human females more than turian females) attractive  . So maybe some fans, they're out there, felt BioWare was slapping femShep in the face again.

 

Doesn't help that Jacob had a thing with the perfect Miranda and cheats with a new woman

 

Thane is still madly in love with Irikah

 

And well...

 

MaleShep is lucky all his LI- Liara, Ashley, Miranda, Jack, Kelly, and Tali- are only into him first and foremost.

 

But like you said if it don't affect your LI who gaf. I personally could not stand garrus and I feel very uncomfortable with turians. In my opinion they are smug, bigoted, and have a very cold and calculated nature towards other species they deem inferior to themselves. Doesn't help that it was established in the Citadel dlc and comics that they wanted to client race or in other cases enslave humanity. Just my opinion, but they are a shade above batarians given the entirety of what I now know about what they planned for humanity. And yes I know, not all turians or batarians are like that. Do you see batarian love...nope.

 

YES!!!

 

I mean... errr... no, that's horrible

 

Now, seriously: I like the hook ups around you that they doesn't involve you at all (they don't need your approval, they don't need you to know actually, maybe you discover that by accident...). I also felt like Liara and Feron share a sweet conection    (and Javik and her good chemistry ).

[Yermogi]

I like the idea of having deeper romances tied to the plot, but at the same time I feel like if they did do that, we'd end up in another DA2 romance situation where everyone could romance everyone, which is not appealing to me.

 

The problem with having fewer romances is that they would want them to appeal to everyone, which in turns creates rather bland characters with a factor of 'likability' but not as great a factor for love. Take Kaiden, for example. In the first game he was the only male romance option for a female, but as a result they tried to give him a high appeal rate factor. And because they tried to do that, a lot of players (including myself) felt that the romance was forced and awkward. In the next game we had 3 male romances and 3 female romances. They were all very different and they all had fans, but you couldn't have a same sex romance with any of them. Then we all know what happened in ME3, so I won't go into that debacle, but I'll skip ahead to DA:I. In that game, there are at least 10 romances with options for straight, gay, and bi LIs, and each of their romances are a part of their individual characters; they weren't made available to everyone (except for Iron Bull, who is pansexual) because that wouldn't fit with their backgrounds.

 

In other words, if you wanted fewer, deeper romances, someone is going to feel left out or disappointed because fewer romances means less representation, less options for those who want options. But making every LI available to male and female Ryders is also an unpopular move because that feels like pandering to players and, to me, unrealistic. 

 

Of course, this is going to be a trilogy. Its not like the DA universe where every game is a story unto itself. In a trilogy, we'll have the same PC, probably several of the same companions, and by extension, several LIs. So you may in face get your wish were we have two or three options in the first game, and then maybe an additional two or three more in the second, and then maybe we'll even get a couple in the third game (although I'm not as big a fan of adding in romances at the end of a trilogy). So by the end of the series, we may end up with 10 possible LIs that span the entire game series, but may not have been present in the entire game series. I think that this system is more likely, and will probably satisfy the OP because, as you say, fewer romances can also mean deeper romances.

[Gannayev of Dreams]

I agree in theory, but BioWare can't win on this issue. Quality is so subjective it's impossible for them to hit the mark for everyone, and if you reduce the quantity then even more people will walk away feeling not served.

 

The logistics are simply unsolvable. Someone has to "lose". 

 

I think the only real "solution" is perhaps the most unpopular, on BSN and tumblr anyway, is for us as an audience to stop seeking so much emotional and/or sexual gratification in a video game. And I say that as someone that quite enjoys the romances in BioWare games.

[Yermogi]

I agree in theory, but BioWare can't win on this issue. Quality is so subjective it's impossible for them to hit the mark for everyone, and if you reduce the quantity then even more people will walk away feeling not served.

 

The logistics are simply unsolvable. Someone has to "lose". 

 

I think the only real "solution" is perhaps the most unpopular, on BSN and tumblr anyway, is for us as an audience to stop seeking so much emotional and/or sexual gratification in a video game. And I say that as someone that quite enjoys the romances in BioWare games.

I think you're absolutely right, but, speaking personally of course, it's very hard not to get attached to characters that we like in general, be they in movies, TV shows, books, or games. But especially games, because games allow us to interact with the characters and forge even deeper connections to them. But if they didn't make memorable characters, I feel that a lot of people would loose interest.

 

It's like a catch-22. Make memorable characters that everyone loves but which causes players to demand more from the character relationships, or make simple characters that no one really likes which causes players to be bored and then demand more from the character relationships.

 

Either way, BW (and all game companies really) are stuck.

[Spirit Vanguard]

I like the side relationships too. It makes the characters feel a little more like they have lives independent from the player and it's interesting to see who pairs together. The only one I don't like is Dorian and Bull... And that has more to do with Bull's character.

 

As far as I'm concerned Liara and Feron are already together. They just don't know it. 

 

...

...

 

^               

[Miserybot]

Oh wow, that's a pretty unpopular idea.

[Laughing_Man]

I think the only real "solution" is perhaps the most unpopular, on BSN and tumblr anyway, is for us as an audience to stop seeking so much emotional and/or sexual gratification in a video game. And I say that as someone that quite enjoys the romances in BioWare games.

 

There's another solution: Get rid of the entire thing and invest instead in the central aspects of the game, like plot, gameplay mechanics, better cut scenes, overall polish, etc.

[ModernAcademic]

I think what bothers Garrusmancers - btw, I'm one of them o/ - is that Garrus and Tali become close, even when you're romancing the turian.

 

You can find them both talking in Garrus' workplace, the main battery, as friends near the end of the game. So Tali actually takes the initiative to go visit him, hinting at a possible intention of hers of befriending him. I can see why FemSheps would get angry all around and want to let the quarians die in Rannoch so as to avoid Tali flirting with him.

 

The way I see it, try to understand why Tali befriends Garrus. They're the only two dextro-amino species onboard the Normandy. They knew each other ever since your days of hunting Saren. Like FemShep put it, the two of you have believed in me since the start.

 

And Tali's obviously watched Fleet and Flotilla, which would make her inclined to want to live a fairy tale with a turian.

 

With a turian.Not necessarily Garrus.

 

The thing is, Tali and Garrus were never great pals. Even in ME2 they never spoke to each other. The only way they'll develop a romance is if FemShep is already hooked with someone else. And the romance would be started by Tali, not Garrus, since in her dialog it's evident she's the one convincing him to render things between them, in her own words, closer and more personal.

 

So there it is. Garrus is not unfaithful to you. Granted, he's tempted by Dr Michel when she gives him the turian chocolate and befriended by Tali, even when he's hooked up with FemShep. He's a charming character, women are naturally drawn to him. But if Tali truly had the intention of stealing him from you, would she warn you about another woman trying to earn your boyfriend's affection with gifts (dextro-amino chocolate)?

 

So it's ok to feel jealous when Femshep finds Tali talking to him in his workplace, but the player must also take into consideration how Garrus never flirts with another woman, even when he's single. It's women who flirt with him. And in the DLC, it's evident how Garrus is so distracted he even missed the beautiful female turian staring at him at the bar. He walks straight past her without much of a glance at her. Garrus is so aloof that MaleShep actually has to help him spot a potential romance interest and muster the courage to go talk to her.

 

Trust me, he's quite a faithful companion. He's a bit aloof sometimes and consumed by his work (what turian isn't?), but unfaithful is not a word I'd associate with Garrus. In ME3 we had lots of evidence of his dedication to you. After all, it's him who asks to rekindle the romance with FemShep right after the mission in Menae.

[Laughing_Man]

You can find them both talking in Garrus' workplace, the main battery, as friends near the end of the game. So Tali actually takes the initiative to go visit him, hinting at a possible intention of hers of befriending him. I can see why FemSheps would get angry all around and want to let the quarians die in Rannoch so as to avoid Tali flirting with him.

 

This type of reasoning, right here, is why Bioware needs to get rid of "romance" entirely.

 

Some Bioware fans are obviously either too young or too socially stunted to be able to cope with the concept in a healthy manner, it is better for the world and them to keep them separated from such bewildering emotions, lest they harm themselves or others in real life as well.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I like those hookups. Since I don't romance any of them, it works for me. They should've done that with Liara and Feron too. They had a cool story together in the comics.

I do yet I don't. I do because most of the time Bioware makes them to be good couples, but I don't because then due to them being a good couple I can't bring myself to romance either involved which can suck. 

[SurelyForth]

This type of reasoning, right here, is why Bioware needs to get rid of "romance" entirely.

 

Some Bioware fans are obviously either too young or too socially stunted to be able to cope with the concept in a healthy manner, it is better for the world and them to keep them separated from such bewildering emotions, lest they harm themselves or others in real life as well.

 

This is some paternalistic bs right here. Like people can't develop unhealthy ideas and attachments to anything, under any circumstances. 

[fdrty]

This type of reasoning, right here, is why Bioware needs to get rid of "romance" entirely.

 

Some Bioware fans are obviously either too young or too socially stunted to be able to cope with the concept in a healthy manner, it is better for the world and them to keep them separated from such bewildering emotions, lest they harm themselves or others in real life as well.

 

What?

 

So let me get this straight. Bioware should remove one of their signature features because... some people aren't emotionally mature enough to handle it? And that is Bioware's fault, or responsibility because...?

 

Did I miss something, or aren't most Bioware games rated 15?

 

'Lest they harm' if anyone was ever harmed by the split second of Liara's blue buttcheeks then I certainly never heard about it. It. Is. Just. A. Game. A game which almost everyone plays like normal human beings.

 

By that logic, we should ban all violent video games, because someone might be unhinged enough to harm someone. You can never stop the crazies from being crazy, so we shouldn't hamstring the media we produce because of that.

 

So what if someone lets the Quarians die? They aren't harming anyone. Their decision is their own, and only exists on their hard drive. If someone is that involved with a fictional romance, then I say let them have it, their lives must be sad (read: sex dry) enough as it is.