21 réponses à ce sujet

[Gervaise]

We were told about several things that had happened, like the destruction of the fledgling Inquisition, assassination of Celene and rampant demon army but what do you suppose happened with the Qun?    It was stated by the Viddasala that they began their mission in southern Thedas immediately after the opening of the Rift, because of the implications for them even back in Par Vollen.   So it is unlikely they just retreated and hoped for the best.    Do you suppose they were still working on their Veil strengthening programme?  In which case, if we hadn't been successful in returning to the present, could it have conceivably been possible that they might have been successful?     In at least some scenarios Solas was in prison, so he couldn't get in the way of their plans and they could largely move about undetected by Cory and his minions by using the eluvians.   What do you think?

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I don't think the Qunari would have been any more able to stand against Corypheus than the rest of Thedas. I think Corypheus probably threw his weight behind Tevinter and crushed them. Considering Corypheus still had a sort of Tevinter nationalist attitude and the primary conflict between the two nations, I imagine the Qunari didn't last long after he reached his "god mode" status. 

[In Exile]

Corypheus is a lunatic. In the dark future, the world is a barren wasteland. There are few people left alive, with spirits driven insane and twisted into demons roaming the land. We don't know what the Imperium looks like, but it's likely slowly being overrun by the Breach and red lyrium as well. Solas tells us this future is an abomination, so clearly whatever Corypheus has done is nothing like what would naturally happen if the Veil was torn away as Solas wants.

[Xerrai]

Corypheus is a lunatic. In the dark future, the world is a barren wasteland. There are few people left alive, with spirits driven insane and twisted into demons roaming the land. We don't know what the Imperium looks like, but it's likely slowly being overrun by the Breach and red lyrium as well. Solas tells us this future is an abomination, so clearly whatever Corypheus has done is nothing like what would naturally happen if the Veil was torn away as Solas wants.

The one thing I really don't understand is this:

Why are there rifts?

 

How can rifts--which are tears in the veil--exist if there is no veil (referencing Solas's claim that the veil was "shattered")? But if there is still a veil, then why did Solas say it was "shattered"? But if there isn't a veil, then why is there both a massive breach still visible and demons still having to access the worlds through rifts/blood summonings, which demonstrates that the world/fade is not merged?

 

Or am I reading too much into a game mechanic? A rather important one, admittedly, but then that whole quests just seems so patched together (1 year in a prison, by red lyrium, and NONE of my companions are insane).

[thats1evildude]

Keep in mind that the Fade and the real world are two distinct realms, and the Veil is only the barrier of perception preventing the denizens of one world from easily transitioning to the other.

The Veil can be thinned by acts of tremendous violence and death, but the Breach (and the smaller Rifts) are unnatural tears in the Veil created by magic. I think it's feasible that they could still exist even with the Veil in tatters, pulling spirits over from the other side and driving them insane.

Also, it isn't clear when your companions were captured, or when they were fed red lyrium.

Having said all that, time travel stinks like my smelly butthole and you should go side with the Templars.

[NaclynE]

We were told about several things that had happened, like the destruction of the fledgling Inquisition, assassination of Celene and rampant demon army but what do you suppose happened with the Qun?    It was stated by the Viddasala that they began their mission in southern Thedas immediately after the opening of the Rift, because of the implications for them even back in Par Vollen.   So it is unlikely they just retreated and hoped for the best.    Do you suppose they were still working on their Veil strengthening programme?  In which case, if we hadn't been successful in returning to the present, could it have conceivably been possible that they might have been successful?     In at least some scenarios Solas was in prison, so he couldn't get in the way of their plans and they could largely move about undetected by Cory and his minions by using the eluvians.   What do you think?

 

Well what I remember from DRAGON AGE 2 (not Inquisition) was the Qunari and Orlias were going to be at war. Sadly this was never stressed in DAI but was stressed heavily in the MARK OF THE ASSASSIN DLC in Dragon Age 2 where Celene was backing anti qunari qunari agents so she can plot and plat a way to attack the lands of the Qun. If the DLC gets finished in a positive fashion this gets foiled so probably apparently Celene may have a plan B on how to invade. If not as Cole said in the fade "there is no uncertainty to how Celene would die" hinting maybe qun agents would kill her IF she gets saved in DAI.

[Shechinah]

Well what I remember from DRAGON AGE 2 (not Inquisition) was the Qunari and Orlias were going to be at war. Sadly this was never stressed in DAI but was stressed heavily in the MARK OF THE ASSASSIN DLC in Dragon Age 2 where Celene was backing anti qunari qunari agents so she can plot and plat a way to attack the lands of the Qun. If the DLC gets finished in a positive fashion this gets foiled so probably apparently Celene may have a plan B on how to invade. If not as Cole said in the fade "there is no uncertainty to how Celene would die" hinting maybe qun agents would kill her IF she gets saved in DAI.

 

Not as far as I remember. From what I can remember, the list in Mark of the Assassin was a list over spies and informants in Orlais and was delivered to the Duke Prosper by Salit and his Tal'vashoth. Talis who retrieved the list was not sent by the Qun and was acting on her own accord against their orders. I don't recall anything in the DLC that served as a strong indication that Orlais and the Qun were going to war.  

[Gervaise]

If anything I would say that Celene had been doing some deals to get the Qun on side with her and was also plotting against them, as Orlesians do.    The Tome of Koslun that Isabella stole was, I seem to recall, in the hands of Orlais and was being handed over as some sort of deal that had been struck between the two nations.  Hence the Arishok being involved.    Tevinter would naturally have liked to get their hands on it and were in fact trying to do so in DA2, so Celene had specifically chosen to work with the Qun over offering it to them.   What Celene was going to get out of it is anyone's guess.  

 

So the whole deal went pear shaped and her agents lost the Tome before it could be handed over to the Arishok.   Deal off.   So now Celene decides that instead she will take the alternative offered by Salit of useful information against the Qun, recognising the value of the defection of such a high level agent.    She trusts her close ally Duke Prosper with the mission, not realising the man is an idiot and can't see the value of a list of names when it is staring him in the face.    May be they were hoping for the Gaatlok recipe, who knows?   

 

Actually it could just have easily been that Salit was a double agent and that is why the leadership told Tallis not to get involved.    She actually says that many of the names on the list are no longer active agents.   What better way to kill off ex-agents who have deserted the Qun (effectively Tal-Vashoth although we only usually associate the term with the horned ones), than give their names to your enemy and let them think they are real?    If they don't simply kill them but torture them and they say they are not working for the Qun, well they would do that wouldn't they?    The beauty of this is that it would then make them trust Salit, so any more false information they wish fed to Celene, she is going to believe.  Likewise he may learn useful things through having her trust.    They may even have tacitly let Tallis go after Salit (they could have stopped her if they wanted to) because if she does try and recover the list, that confirms its value.   May be they never dreamed she would succeed or simply that Prosper wouldn't take the bait.   Incidentally, even if Salis wasn't a double agent, that would account for why they didn't want her to go after him, because again that confirmed the value of the list.   Otherwise, he could have come up with a random list of names and the fact the Qun aren't more worried would make Celene think it wasn't genuine.

 

Anyway, long story short, that was all about Celene trying to play the game on a wider stage and the Qun playing along with it because it suited them to.     

[In Exile]

The one thing I really don't understand is this:
Why are there rifts?

How can rifts--which are tears in the veil--exist if there is no veil (referencing Solas's claim that the veil was "shattered")? But if there is still a veil, then why did Solas say it was "shattered"? But if there isn't a veil, then why is there both a massive breach still visible and demons still having to access the worlds through rifts/blood summonings, which demonstrates that the world/fade is not merged?

Or am I reading too much into a game mechanic? A rather important one, admittedly, but then that whole quests just seems so patched together (1 year in a prison, by red lyrium, and NONE of my companions are insane).

Think of it this way. A room doesn't naturally have a dividing line. If you draw a literal veil through it - a curtain - you can split it in two. If you make a lot of cuts in it, including a big hole, you haven't actually removed the curtain.

The Veil in DA is a bit more metaphysical than that because in a way the Fade was always "separate" from the real world - it was just never all in one place. From everything Solas tells us it sounds like what he did is take something that permeates reality and basically stuff it in a footlocker.

[Tidus]

Had the Inquisitor and his group not stop the dark future the Qunari would have parish under Cory's unbeatable Army of Demons,Red Templars, the dragon(AD?) and the Venatori. Remember Cory said he will give this nation and the world the God it needs.

 

Think of the things we did to stop him.

[Gervaise]

All the time we were beavering away to stop Cory, the Qun were doing the same trying to strengthen the Veil.     They have access to the eluvians and the Crossroads, whilst Solas was otherwise engaged.    Given how badly things were going wrong on the surface, the leadership would likely have thrown all their resources at the problem.   I'm not saying they would have been successful but it would have been interesting if they were.    There would be Cory and his demons thinking they were invincible and then suddenly, boom, the Veil is not only restored but stronger and they have no magic, not even Void magic.    The demons wither and Cory is left looking at his orb thinking, what happened?

 

It would still be a dark future of course because now the Qun rule all Thedas with an iron fist and magic is but a vague memory.   Nightmare!

[Tidus]

Gervaise,Do I see a possible plot for DA:5  or 6?

[fhs33721]

Not as far as I remember. From what I can remember, the list in Mark of the Assassin was a list over spies and informants in Orlais and was delivered to the Duke Prosper by Salit and his Tal'vashoth. Talis who retrieved the list was not sent by the Qun and was acting on her own accord against their orders. I don't recall anything in the DLC that served as a strong indication that Orlais and the Qun were going to war.  

Wasn't it Prospers, and by extension Celenes, intention to get the rogue Qunari to sell them the formula for their blackpoweder? She most likely wanted that to strengthen her own forces in case she had to defend her country or position. I don't think she planned to start a war with the Qunari, since she seems to rather prefer not causing any wars.

[thats1evildude]

Everyone knows the qunari will invade the south at some point (which they did in Trespasser). Celene was just trying to get a weapon that could be used against them (dreadnought plans, a map of Qunandar, etc.). Prosper didn't realize what the list was, so he turned on Salit.

[Dai Grepher]

Viddasala could not have reached any of the Crossroads pocket dimensions unless Flemeth opened the eluvian and Solas used that opportunity to empower his efforts. Without the eluvians and access to those worlds, Viddasala's plan doesn't work.

Also, the bad future takes place in 9:42. Viddasala's plan wasn't even started until 9:44.

All the bad future does is ruin any idea BioWare had for alternate stories, such as Flemeth or the preserved soul of Urthemiel. It means that no one was able to stop Corypheus. Not Flemeth, not Morrigan and Kieran, not the Hero of Ferelden, not Tevinter, not the Qunari, no one.

[thats1evildude]

The alternate future no longer exists. Well, it might if you prescribe to multiverse theory, but this current timeline has been altered.

[Wulfram]

When they're torturing Leliana, isn't their mention of the Qunari? I'm sure there's something, possibly in the dialogue you can hear before you open the door.

edit: Seems I misremembered. The torturer does ask "how did the Qunari learn of the sacrifice at the temple" but only if you're playing a Qunari. They're referring to the Inquisitor.
 

Corypheus is a lunatic. In the dark future, the world is a barren wasteland. There are few people left alive, with spirits driven insane and twisted into demons roaming the land. We don't know what the Imperium looks like, but it's likely slowly being overrun by the Breach and red lyrium as well. Solas tells us this future is an abomination, so clearly whatever Corypheus has done is nothing like what would naturally happen if the Veil was torn away as Solas wants.

To be fair, I don't think this was Corypheus' plan either. Most of it appears to be the consequence of the Breach, and the fact that the Inquisitor disappeared with the Anchor so there's no way to counter it.

Not saying he's not a lunatic, but I don't think he's the sort of lunatic who thought that the Breach swallowing the world was a good idea.

[thats1evildude]

Not saying he's not a lunatic, but I don't think he's the sort of lunatic who thought that the Breach swallowing the world was a good idea.

 

Until he's losing, that is.

[Gervaise]

The plan was initially started in early to mid 9:41 which is when the explosion happened.   It is difficult to get a fix on it but by the time you are in Redcliffe Castle it is the autumn because it is Harvestmere.   However, it is not clear how long it took to get the okay to travel to Val Royeaux and in real time you would spend a lot of it just travelling between Haven, Hinterlands, Haven, Val Royeaux and back again.

 

The Viddasala specifically says they started making plans immediately after the explosion because they realised that the south could not control mages or magic sufficiently well.    Briala gained control of the eluvians in 9:40 and immediately activated the entire network.   Whilst she seemed to have control of the password, it turns out this was not the case and certain eluvians could be activated separately provided you had the right key.  She was definitely still in control at the time of Wicked Eyes Wicked Hearts.   Solas confirmed that the Qunari got control over their bit of the network completely independently of everyone else.   Part of the reason he was probably so angry with Felassan is that activating the entire network put it at risk of infiltration.    Flemeth had control over certain parts of the network but not the whole thing, just as Morrigan had control over her eluvian.  

 

What occurred in 9:44 was that the Viddasala started experimenting with stoking up the Saarebas with lyrium in the hope of strengthening the Veil, but I assume she had been researching this before she took the decision and the idea of using the saarebas was because nothing else looked like working.    The plan to overrun the south was the main plan from HQ.   When that was unsuccessful, the leadership disowned the whole thing to the south and went back to Plan B, which was to start a full scale invasion of Tevinter.  

[Dai Grepher]

They way I understood it, the Crossroads was foggy and restricted when Briala controlled it because it was still so disconnected from the Fade. When Solas overrode the magic personally, I think he restored most of the network's connection to the Fade, which made it more open and colorful. That, I believe, is when Viddasala first started exploring them and happened to stumble upon the Vir Dirthara.

[Gervaise]

The eluvian network is actually described differently in the books.   The pathways are the bits that seem misty and where humans suffer but elves, even modern elves like Briala and Mihris, do not.  The paths are made up of stones that glow with a brilliant white light and are carved with elven runes.   Each side of the path is a landscape that appears misty but they can see trees vaguely in the distance as outlines against the horizon.   Initially the plants are dull until touched by Felassan when they fill with colour.   The pathways seem to connect between eluvians and then on to the various pocket realms, where humans can operate normally.   It is not clear if these other areas are in the real world or not.   The nearest thing we get is when Morrigan takes us to the Crossroads but there are still no glowing white stones that radiate light with runes on them.   Even with the pathways it still takes them days to reach the Crossroads, which is a large circular hall, filled with eluvians, a bowl like depression in the middle, surrounded by marble benches (clearly a sort of meeting place) and with an elaborate labyrinth carved into the floor, leading to the central control unit.   We see nothing like that in game.  So wherever we came out from the Winter Palace it was not the true Crossroads, nor was the bit that Morrigan used, just a part of the network.   May be just a pocket junction point, like the one that Briala's party first came out into, but larger.   Hence Morrigan being able to live there without suffering ill effects and the Inquisitor likewise being unaffected.

 

I assume that the central control unit that Briala reached was the bit that Solas took back.    Neither the qunari or anyone else went there after that.    It was possible to enter the network without the password because Briala's party did that initially, with the key provided by Imshael.   So long as they had their individual key they were able to activate the eluvians they came across.    Presumably anyone else could do this as well, if they had obtained a key but only on a limited basis.   They couldn't enter an eluvian if someone else (like Solas) had locked it and they could no longer reach the central true Crossroads.     

 

Solas would only have been able to take back the central Crossroads after he left you at the end of the main game.    He presumably left the Qunari alone because he wanted to find out what they were up to.    The area that they were using, which was also the area that we use in game, I dare say he isolated from the rest of the network.   It is not clear when they found the Vir Dirthara but I assume it was not long before we did.   There were Qunari trapped on islands, who couldn't have been there long or they would have died of starvation.    I imagine the reason they were trapped is because Solas had rigged it that way.   Once he had control, no one went anywhere that he didn't want them to go.  

 

So in the main timeline the Qunari would never have succeeded even if we hadn't got involved.   Solas made that quite clear.   The Qun offend him.   The reason it played out like it did was because he intended it that way.   He was playing everyone.   Just pawns in his gigantic chess game.

 

I was just looking at it from the point of view of an alterative time line where Solas does not have control of the network and Briala is dead or desperately trying to find a way of saving people through the network.   As such she wouldn't know about the qunari and probably wouldn't worry about them if she did.   There were bigger issues at the time, like a false god and his demon army destroying the world.

[Dai Grepher]

It is not clear when they found the Vir Dirthara but I assume it was not long before we did.   There were Qunari trapped on islands, who couldn't have been there long or they would have died of starvation.

There is a flaw in that assumption. The standed Qunari could have become stranded at any time after Viddasala found the Vir Dirthara. I would think that the fact Viddasala and her people have not yet tried a rescue attempt of those stranded Qunari means that they were stranded shortly before we arrived. Solas possibly put them there to slow Viddasala down. Or perhaps they fell off the edge and that is what happens to those who fall. But them being stranded doesn't tell us anything about when Viddasala arrived. The camp indicates that they had been there for some time.
 

I was just looking at it from the point of view of an alterative time line where Solas does not have control of the network and Briala is dead or desperately trying to find a way of saving people through the network.   As such she wouldn't know about the qunari and probably wouldn't worry about them if she did.   There were bigger issues at the time, like a false god and his demon army destroying the world.

But if the Inquisition was destroyed in this time, and most nations were being destroyed, then the only targets the Qunari would focus on in this case would be the Elder One and the Breach. Viddasala probably wouldn't bother with magic mirrors. They would be too preoccupied with fighting demons, Venatori, and Red Templars.