112 réponses à ce sujet

[DreamerM]

But in an RPG like the kind Bioware makes, people like to feel they can influence the outcome a bit. If you are going to breach player agency to that degree with a forced death, the death should at least be meaningful and have some emotional payoff to the player. Whether it's a dramatic goodbye scene with a companion, an epic death scene slaying the dragon, or whathaveyou.

That's not just true in games.

Yes you WANT emotional payoff. You WANT to control your fate. But what if all the control you thought you had was an illusion, or it only lasted for so long? While Corytheus was threatening the world, you were king for a day, but that day is over. There are new problems now, and they will be handled by someone other then you. There is nothing you can do to stop this. Death comes for all of us eventually, and we don't all get to go out like heroes.

Games are fundamentally power fantasies. They don't confront you with the uncomfortable truths of your own mortality or your own limitations or that anything you do may not really matter in the long run. They dangled this as a theme with Hawke, but the Inqusitor remained a special unique snowflake who's Chosen One status was never in question. To pull the rug out from under that by actually making Inky the one who is humbled and left questioning if he or she ever really mattered...

... And the person who said, "they want to keep Solas sympathetic," Solas can be VERY sympathetic and still kill you. The Inquisitor is dying anyway, this is a mercy, and he'd make sure to tell you comforting things about how great and important you were and about how your choices DID matter and he will never forget you, ever. If you befriend him, or romance him, then he genuinely does care for you, and if this was really the end, he'd leave it all on the field in terms of making sure you know how loved you are. He'd send you off smiling, if he can.
 

Which is why I think that the Inquisitor will fill an advisory role to the new PC.

Oh god no, please no. Not after what they did to Hawke. No more returning PCs please. Please no.

[Reznore57]

... And the person who said, "they want to keep Solas sympathetic," Solas can be VERY sympathetic and still kill you. The Inquisitor is dying anyway, this is a mercy, and he'd make sure to tell you comforting things about how great and important you were and about how your choices DID matter and he will never forget you, ever. If you befriend him, or romance him, then he genuinely does care for you, and if this was really the end, he'd leave it all on the field in terms of making sure you know how loved you are. He'd send you off smiling, if he can.

Before or after Solas tells you he gave his orb to Cory and now thanks to him you're going to die...
I imagine it would also add some flavor , him explaining he wants to give small confort to people before dooming them.
That's like suddenly Solas mistake would have real impact and consequences on something the player hold dear (their character) , I'm sure the level of sympathy would go through the roof.

[DreamerM]

Before or after Solas tells you he gave his orb to Cory and now thanks to him you're going to die...

He knows he really fkked up that one. It was NOT the plan. He almost lost everything. He had to put himself in huge danger to undo that mistake and get his plan back into some kind of shape, which is how he found himself fighting alongside these people and caring for them in ways he didn't even know he was still capable of.  Quizzy f-ed up his plans, but also changed him. He's still determined to stick to his plan but we will have to wait and see what the fallout from this human contact turns out to be.

 

I imagine it would also add some flavor , him explaining he wants to give small confort to people before dooming them.

Hey, that was his reason for wanting to stop the Qunari invasion. So the people can "die in comfort." Someone should tell him that just sounds silly. Still, it's important to HIM.

 

That's like suddenly Solas mistake would have real impact and consequences on something the player hold dear (their character) , I'm sure the level of sympathy would go through the roof.

He has taken something meaningful from you. How many villains can really say that? THAT is someone I'll fight for games to come.

[Navasha]

Maybe because he is a complex villain.   Unlike most comic book villain which are just outright evil, Solus actually isn't evil at all.   He is not "out to destroy the world", he is out to restore the elves and the world he already destroyed.    He isn't doing it for 'evil' intentions.   He's trying to correct a 'mistake' he made long ago.   

 

If you romance Solus, the story comes off as its his love for Lavellan that finally pushed him into this action.  

[Gervaise]

You do realise he has only given us a temporary reprieve?    To someone he likes he basically says enjoy it while you can, while to someone he hates he says, I'll save you for now but I dare say you won't thank me for it.   If that isn't meant to make you feel impotent, I don't know what is.   He literally views you as so inconsequential that he is prepared to leave you alive.   It would actually make you seem more important if he did kill you, because that would mean he saw you as a threat.

 

I simply feel that having the Inquisitor as an advisor is a compromise between having them return as the PC and having them simply forgotten about, seeing as I would rather not have them killed just to make life simple.   To be honest, I would have settled for the Inquisitor looking out over the balcony at Skyhold, staring off into the sunset with their loved one, then Trespasser minus Solas to explain why the Inquisition was cut down to size or disbanded.   The mark could just as easily stopped working once all the rifts were closed.    

 

The mystery of Solas would then have remained for the new PC to discover.    They didn't do that, though.   Having already given the game away with the epilogue scene, so really the Inquisitor was only getting up to speed with what we already knew, the Solas exposition was tacked onto the main plot of Trespasser.    The thing is, allegedly, DAI only covered half the story it should have, which is why it feels like there is still a story to be told with the  Inquisitor.  They have a personal investment in finding Solas that a new PC does not.   I think the loss of the arm was originally meant to explain why you couldn't continue, except lots of us started saying, what about a replacement arm?    I pointed out there is even an Irish legend where this is exactly what happens with the hero.   They lose the arm in battle and then return with a magical replacement arm.    Getting used to the arm could even be used to explain why they were suddenly back to a low level again.   However, then you would have people complaining who want a new PC.

 

There is nothing wrong with wanting a bit of power fantasy where your hero always comes through.   The real world is sh***y enough, that's why I enjoy playing my fantasy RPGs.   I knew from the beginning my hero was doomed in DAO, if not straight away then in 30 years time, then it was the writers who suddenly had them chasing off in search of a cure.   I was happy with them doing a good job running Vigil's Keep until they felt their real Calling.   I haven't sacrificed  Hawke yet because I don't have a good enough reason to and I have absolutely no emotional connection with the alternative, Stroud.    What is the point of saving him to rebuild the Wardens in the south if he immediately leaves for Weisshaupt?    So Hawke is back in Kirkwall, helping run things with Varric.   To be honest they could have left them there from the beginning and simply used Stroud or whatever other warden on their own to involve you in the False Calling plot.   

 

It is the writers who should stop leaving heroes hanging in the air at the end of their stories, with the feeling that there is still part of it untold, particularly when we have got such a big break between games this time but that is no justification for wanting the hero killed off just for completion sake.    At the moment we have three mysteries that they haven't answered at the end of DAI involving all 3 of our heroes: What happened with the Warden - did they find the cure or not?; What happened in Weisshaupt Fortress with Hawke - one moment there is no news at all and it seems really ominous, then suddenly Hawke is back in Kirkwall; Is the Inquisitor going to be leading the search for Solas or not?

[Captain Wiseass]

He doesn't have to. He doesn't think the Inquisitor stands a serious chance of stopping him (his name means "pride" for a reason), and is taking this opportunity to let them off with a warning. If they persist, he might have to kill them in the future, but he doesn't now. And Solas doesn't kill people unless he has to. He's something like Chris Claremont's Magneto, using any means necessary to achieve his goal, but only those means that are necessary. He'll let people die as collateral damage, and he'll kill to defend himself or protect/carry out his plans, but he won't commit what he sees to be senseless or vindictive murder, or let people die when it can be avoided.

 

He also probably feels guilty about the Inquisitor's predicament with the Anchor, which is why he saves them in the first place.

[DreamerM]

He doesn't have to. He doesn't think the Inquisitor stands a serious chance of stopping him (his name means "pride" for a reason), and is taking this opportunity to let them off with a warning.

 

Oh Andraste's sacred butt-cheeks, I hope that's not it. That one is the crown jewel of all "Stupid Villain Mistakes." In that case it's not the hero defeating the villain, it's the villain defeating THEMSELVES by refusing to engage in even the most basic forms of self-preservation. The Inquisitor is an emotional, if not a physical, threat, and Solas knows it. Leaving them alive and aware of your plan oh gee I wonder what's going to happen?? Ugh. No. Just... 

Please Bioware, please, for the lovva the Maker, PLEASE be better then this.

[congokong]

His petrifying powers cannot penetrate plot armor.

 

I have also theorized that part of him wants to fail, to be stopped. His conscience won't allow him to sit back with the fade as it is and elves as they are, yet he apparently won't commit suicide either. He feels compelled to fix things but doesn't want to cause all the collateral damage. Thus he's hoping someone takes the choice away from him by actively stopping him, and he's subconsciously sabotaging his efforts by keeping the Inquisitor alive.

[thats1evildude]

Oh Andraste's sacred butt-cheeks, I hope that's not it. That one is the crown jewel of all "Stupid Villain Mistakes." In that case it's not the hero defeating the villain, it's the villain defeating THEMSELVES by refusing to engage in even the most basic forms of self-preservation. The Inquisitor is an emotional, if not a physical, threat, and Solas knows it. Leaving them alive and aware of your plan oh gee I wonder what's going to happen?? Ugh. No. Just...

 

1) The Inquisitor is not aware of Solas' new plans.

2) The Inquisitor is not any kind of threat to Solas. Emotional, physical or otherwise.

[congokong]

1) The Inquisitor is not aware of Solas' new plans.

2) The Inquisitor is not any kind of threat to Solas. Emotional, physical or otherwise.

1. Not the specifics, but his general goal.

2. Perhaps not a one-on-one threat, but influence alone makes Inky a threat. You see this right after in the war room when they plan on using the Inquisition, or what's left of it, to appeal to Tevinter. This plan would be compromised if the Inquisitor was dead. They may not even be aware of Solas' agenda otherwise.

[Dai Grepher]

Solas removed the mark because it was his mistake to fix.

[Sah291]

That's not just true in games.
Yes you WANT emotional payoff. You WANT to control your fate. But what if all the control you thought you had was an illusion, or it only lasted for so long? While Corytheus was threatening the world, you were king for a day, but that day is over. There are new problems now, and they will be handled by someone other then you. There is nothing you can do to stop this. Death comes for all of us eventually, and we don't all get to go out like heroes.
Games are fundamentally power fantasies. They don't confront you with the uncomfortable truths of your own mortality or your own limitations or that anything you do may not really matter in the long run. They dangled this as a theme with Hawke, but the Inqusitor remained a special unique snowflake who's Chosen One status was never in question. To pull the rug out from under that by actually making Inky the one who is humbled and left questioning if he or she ever really mattered...
... And the person who said, "they want to keep Solas sympathetic," Solas can be VERY sympathetic and still kill you. The Inquisitor is dying anyway, this is a mercy, and he'd make sure to tell you comforting things about how great and important you were and about how your choices DID matter and he will never forget you, ever. If you befriend him, or romance him, then he genuinely does care for you, and if this was really the end, he'd leave it all on the field in terms of making sure you know how loved you are. He'd send you off smiling, if he can.

I'm not saying it isn't an interesting idea, I just don't see how it would go over well with players, and they did not likely want to take such a risk, after the response to DA2 and the ME3 ending. I can understand because that kind of ending is frustrating, and makes people feel like the game is unwinnable from a game play perspective (as opposed to a story narrative one).

I did think this theme was interesting in DA2, but that game had the genuine feel of a Greek tradgey or morality play, and it worked narratively, I thought. But it still wasn't as well liked. The expansion could have really could have dialed it up a notch too, with a tragic ending like what David Gaider hinted at (Varric dying and probably other major characters).

[DreamerM]

I'm not saying it isn't an interesting idea, I just don't see how it would go over well with players, and they did not likely want to take such a risk, after the response to DA2 and the ME3 ending. I can understand because that kind of ending is frustrating, and makes people feel like the game is unwinnable from a game play perspective (as opposed to a story narrative one).

In DA2, Hawke actually wasn't a Chosen One. His or her actions couldn't stop the oncoming war, just delay it. And the problem with ME3 wasn't frustration that Shephard had to die, (in most endings) but that Shephard had to do it without ever getting any real answers. The three functions of the crucible are so vaguely-defined that in the end, you might as well be picking randomly... or pick the one that gives you the one post-credit breath and assume THAT was your happy ending. Blah.

In this case, Quizzy gets all the answers. Everything is coherently explained and all major storylines are wrapped up. Solas killing you isn't going to change this, in fact he might even be MORE forthcoming since he knows you will never tell anyone else and he wants to make this as painless as he can... for both of you.

And I can imagine the Inquisitor's former companions using Tevinter's Dream magic to seek out memories in the Fade, looking for exactly what was said between Inky and Solas before the end. It would be a nice, high-stakes mystery for them to investigate, especially since as Solas likes to remind us, memories are subjective and we need to sort through the false memories to point out what really happened. Maybe under the guidance of a fade spirit impersonating the Inquisitor...or could it be their memory or their ghost?

[nightscrawl]

Oh Andraste's sacred butt-cheeks, I hope that's not it. That one is the crown jewel of all "Stupid Villain Mistakes." In that case it's not the hero defeating the villain, it's the villain defeating THEMSELVES by refusing to engage in even the most basic forms of self-preservation. The Inquisitor is an emotional, if not a physical, threat, and Solas knows it. Leaving them alive and aware of your plan oh gee I wonder what's going to happen?? Ugh. No. Just... 

Please Bioware, please, for the lovva the Maker, PLEASE be better then this.

 

Well, he does say, given certain dialogue choices, that he would like "the chance to be proven wrong once again." In that case, it really does seem like he either wants to be stopped, or some alternative found that would solve everyone's problems.

 

The whole trope about the villain letting the hero know about their plans only applies if Solas is some cackling-mad villain that doesn't actually have some remorse and reluctance about his future actions, which Solas does. His problem is that he thinks the end justifies the means, that he is making up for his past failure, correcting the state of the world, and so on, but he still feels bad about it; those other things simply outweigh his personal regrets.

[BloodKaiden]

In this case, Quizzy gets all the answers. Everything is coherently explained and all major storylines are wrapped up. Solas killing you isn't going to change this, in fact he might even be MORE forthcoming since he knows you will never tell anyone else and he wants to make this as painless as he can... for both of you.
And I can imagine the Inquisitor's former companions using Tevinter's Dream magic to seek out memories in the Fade, looking for exactly what was said between Inky and Solas before the end. It would be a nice, high-stakes mystery for them to investigate, especially since as Solas likes to remind us, memories are subjective and we need to sort through the false memories to point out what really happened. Maybe under the guidance of a fade spirit impersonating the Inquisitor...or could it be their memory or their ghost?

Damn. I would be so alright with this. If my Inky died by Solas on his knees at the end I'd be going through so many emotions. Ultimately though I'd respect Bioware a great deal for shakening things up a bit in that regard , it'd be daring and although most would be butthurt about it and rage constantly it would have been something different they've done to a PC. I enjoy when a game surprises me and stabs me in the feels turning me into a emotional rollercoaster.

[Dai Grepher]

Killing the Inquisitor was never on the table because they never planned to have all the companions present for the conversation with Solas. Which means, the romance interest would not be present and there would be no goodbyes from them or the various companions. Lazy BioWare.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Because he's the villain now. And deep down, all villains are stupid.

[Captain Wiseass]

Because he's the villain now. And deep down, all villains are stupid.

Good will always triumph because evil is dumb.

[Nocturnalchemy]

I'm really hesitant to call Solas dumb, or overly sentimental, or anything else that implies that his plan is unavoidably doomed to failure. In fact, I'm leaning to the possibility that he actually succeeds in unleashing the "fires of chaos" on parts of Thedas (probably parts we've never visited before in a Dragon Age game), before he's stopped. I think we're looking at a major transformative event for the setting as a whole.

[DreamerM]

I think we're looking at a major transformative event for the setting as a whole.

 

For a change? We are 2/3 in terms of games centered around transformative events. 3/3 if you consider the chantry explosion a transformative event.

[Nocturnalchemy]

I'm talking of a lasting transformation on a metaphysical level.

[DreamerM]

Killing the Inquisitor was never on the table because they never planned to have all the companions present for the conversation with Solas. Which means, the romance interest would not be present and there would be no goodbyes from them or the various companions. Lazy BioWare.

We've got magic. Give us some fuzzy white time-magic stuff where your companions black out for a moment and they see an apparition of Inky, you decide what Inky says, warn them about the danger, maybe have one last smooch with your love interest... and then the white stuff fades and the Companions head to the clearing to find Quizzy's body where it lies all tragic and dead. Music swells, the end. Post-credits, companions swear to stop Solas, stab map of Tevinter, the end for real.

 

[Gervaise]

How is having some weird white-time magic stuff where the Quizzy miraculously contacts their companions to warn them of their danger any better than simply letting them survive?     You have still got exactly the same situation, except now it is the whole group of companions you have to cater for in the next instalment, instead of just the Inquisitor.    If such magic were possible, then Solas, as a Dreamer, ought to be aware of it and be able to stop it.   If he feels threatened enough by the Inquisitor to kill them, then he is not going to leave any loose ends.  

 

If we allow that Solas didn't just tell them everything just to justify himself, and he doesn't do that with someone he hates, he simply says they are all going to die, then you have to assume there is a reason for it.    Unless it was pure and simple a contrived plot device that the writers put in to dangle a carrot in front of the player about the next game.  If Solas had told them everything he did and then either killed them or allowed them to die there, then it would have simply been a contrived plot device and I would have been incensed to have been used in that way.

 

Solas draws you to him in order to save you, he tells you why he has acted as he has and what he did in the past, then he departs leaving you with that information.   The only conclusion you can draw from this is that 1) the Inquisitor still has a part to play in the story and 2) Solas intends for that to be the case.   His two responses to a friendly Inquisitor are basically that he expects them to hold good to their promise that they will either try to stop him (by killing him) or prove him wrong.    He only ever expects a hostile Inquisitor to come after him and try to kill him, yet he lets hem live.    It is part of his plan.

[Absafraginlootly]

If they'd killed the inquisitor I think it would have been better to do it with the mark than have Solas do it.

From the beginning of the game it was made clear that the anchor nearly killed you and still could. In trespasser it IS killing you, so instead of having Solas cure you, have it so he can't. He confesses to the dying inquisitor, with an extra level of tragedy for romanced lavellen, then leaves. The inquisitor lives long enough to make it back, warn people, and have deathbed goodbye with their LI.

It would have made for a natural end to the inquisitors arc, the price of being able to seal the rift and save the world. I'm good with the inquisitor surviving, but if they died I think this would have been better than Solas doing it.

[ModernAcademic]

Since we have ZERO info on the upcoming game, I'll just throw in my speculations:

 

I really don't think Solas will be that important in DA4. There are a lot of expectations on the character, but something tells me his actions will only matter concerning the possibility of the Veil coming down. We might not even have a glimpse of him in the upcoming game until the final scene or something like that.

 

Other than that, I believe he'll be irrelevant to the general plot. Your PC won't even know he's there until you finally see his hand behind some of the strange events going on.