164 respuestas en este tema

[nhk3]

    Let me start by saying I liked the way weapons handled in ME1 with overheating/cooldown, barring the bugs that plagued the system and how it could be exploited. When I played ME2 I found that, with the new ammo mechanic, clip availability is inconsistent at best. Especially evident on higher difficulties there are several times where wave after wave of enemies are sent at the player, yet ammunition is barely available.
    Yes ME1 was game-breaking by allowing the player to shoot constantly without pause, but this could've been improved without reverting to run-of-the-mill shooter mechanics. The reload mechanic is OK as a solution to the issue, but was it really necessary to add ammo for automatic weapons ?

   I thought it made more sense for weapons to have an inbuilt heat-sink that could be vented (reload mechanic), which would preserve the original intended mechanic of overheat/cooldown, instead of disposable heat-sinks which only served as a stand-in for ammunition. It's specifically pointed out in ME1 is that weapons didn't need this anymore, so why do it. In order to not make the game very easy it could've even been a difficult to attain upgrade or come with increased reload times as a downside. On the other side, I do agree that heavy weapons should have some type of ammunition due to their general functionality and destructive power.

   I really hope this can be improved in Andromeda, since it's one of the points where I feel the sequels are inferior to the original Mass Effect.

[capn233]

The main reason for clips being finite is to increase the challenge of the game by giving the players a finite resource to manage.  People are pretty polarized even on the simple issue of whether this adds challenge to the game, but that is why they did it.

 

I agree that it would be possible to create a more complicated heat system than ME1 had that would allow the weapons to feel more distinct (weapon cooling in ME1 is the same for every weapon of the same level).  But if the cooling is very rapid (like press a button to vent), then you would have something equivalent to a standard shooter with an infinite ammo cheat enabled, which doesn't really sound like a step forward.

[CHRrOME]

I mentioned it before, I'd actually like to see as many different systems as possible, just for the sake of variety. ME1 cooldown system (weapons start to cool down as soon as you stop firing), ME2 clip system, the manual-vent system you mentioned in which the player has to manually vent the heat, but it still has unlimited ammo.

Add different weapons with different ammo systems, could prove fun.

[In Exile]

The issue with a cool down is not just infinite ammo but that in ME the cool down could be so quick that you were auto fire the entire time.

[Pearl (rip bioware)]

The main reason for clips being finite is to increase the challenge of the game by giving the players a finite resource to manage.  People are pretty polarized even on the simple issue of whether this adds challenge to the game, but that is why they did it.

While I absolutely agree that limiting resources is a good way to increase difficulty, it needs to actually be scarce in order for it to significantly affect the experience. In ME2 and 3, there are thermal clips everywhere, even on Insanity.

[Sylvius the Mad]

That we could fire non-stop in ME1 was a problem with being able to stack frictionless materials, not the basic premise of the system.

If they wanted to stop constant auto-fire, there were ways to do it without adding ammo.

And if the point of ammo was to add challenge, the only way to do that is to have there be some sort of scarcity of that resource, and that wasn't true at all in ME3. If the goal was still to add challenge, the available supply would have been smaller. And if adding challenge ceased to be a design goal, why did they keep the ammo at all?

Moreover, even in ME2 the ammo didn't add challenge; it added frustration. If you did a lousy job of managing the resource, you'd just die. Forced reloading is a terrible design (particularly for me, because I prefer not to reload after combat deaths, and instead start over).

[MichaelN7]

I figured something like "Cooldown" being an upgrade, with a downside.

It would make the weapon heavier and fire slower.

Think about it, cooldown doesn't matter if the weapon has melted in your hands (ouch), so it would limit the weapon's power to prevent catastrophe.

[Laughing_Man]

But if the cooling is very rapid (like press a button to vent), then you would have something equivalent to a standard shooter with an infinite ammo cheat enabled, which doesn't really sound like a step forward.

 

Even rapid cooling takes time, hell, slamming in a new mag doesn't take that long in most shooters.

 

Gameplay considerations aside, the flagrant disregard for lore and in-game logic is rather annoying.

There was really no need to hand the idiot ball to the entire galaxy. This could have been handled much better.

[Laughing_Man]

It is my dearest wish for ME:A to see a more sensible approach in regards to ammo management, the thermal clips idea was really idiotic from lore perspective.

[AngryFrozenWater]

It is my dearest wish for ME:A to see a more sensible approach in regards to ammo management, the thermal clips idea was really idiotic from lore perspective.

Especially because it doesn't make sense that Andromeda has the same clip system as the MW. Is there an Universal Thermal Clip corporation? No doubt the fans and BW will defend clips anyway, because reasons.

[TheRevanchist]

I too, absolutely hated the Ammo mechanic that was added with ME2. I personally thought the M7 Lancer added in the Citadel DLC was a fantastic way to show how weapons should be handled in ME. That was by far my favorite weapon in the entire trilogy. Sadly we've already seen characters reloading in the trailers, so we're still stuck with this lore breaking gimmick ammo.

[Jorina Leto]

The standard ammo mechanic is here to stay.

Bioware should just have retconned it instead of making up bullshit that "Thermal Clips" are an improvement.

[capn233]

 In ME2 and 3, there are thermal clips everywhere, even on Insanity.

 

This is part of what I was talking about.

 

Seems like half the people think ammo wasn't a problem in ME2, and the other half say it was so limited they couldn't use guns.

 

Clips were probably too plentiful in ME3, although grenades were extremely scarce in SP.

 

Even rapid cooling takes time, hell, slamming in a new mag doesn't take that long in most shooters.1

 

Right, and most shooters have limited ammo, which is why reload time was less than what you would get in ME1 cooling from max heat.  ME1 had ~ five seconds worth of overheat duration as an attempt to balance unlimited ammo.

[echoness]

A mixture of both I guess. Now in Andromeda there are loads of exploration to do we can't have thermal clips everywhere. Cooldown weapons are necessary. Or without thermal clips we can still fire but need more time to cooldown weapons. In Borderlands 2 I played UVHM mode I always bring Infinity pistol in case I run out of ammo.

[TheRevanchist]

A mixture of both I guess. Now in Andromeda there are loads of exploration to do we can't have thermal clips everywhere. Cooldown weapons are necessary. Or without thermal clips we can still fire but need more time to cooldown weapons. In Borderlands 2 I played UVHM mode I always bring Infinity pistol in case I run out of ammo.

 

I can bet cash money that Bioware no longer cares about making this whole concept believable. Don't be surprised if we see random Thermal Clips out in the middle of the desert on some backwater planet, like there is some universal Thermal Clip company that just dumps them in random locations. 

[Vit246]

Just use a hybrid system with cooldown. When you run out of clips because you don't actually care about trigger discipline, the gun reverts to the internal heatsink.

[Sifr]

Just use a hybrid system with cooldown. When you run out of clips because you don't actually care about trigger discipline, the gun reverts to the internal heatsink.

 

Shepard suggests in ME3 that the only reason the hybrid system wasn't possible is because they couldn't make the technology compact enough to fit inside the weapons, so they were forced to pick between one or t'other, so they went with heatsinks instead.

 

Perhaps some bright spark has sussed out how to create a hybrid weapon that can use both styles. The disadvantages being that it has a smaller thermal clip capacity and the internal heatsink isn't able to fire as often without overheating, but the advantage of unlimited ammunition if you do run out of thermal clips.

 

Otherwise, make the game more challenging with a hybrid weapon by making ammo more scarce and make the internal heatsink overheat more quickly. So you have to be careful and can't simply run through the level with a pray 'n' spray mentality. Once you use up the limited ammo in that mission, you'll be spending most of the level behind cover, hoping your gun cools down before you're overwhelmed.

[echoness]

I can bet cash money that Bioware no longer cares about making this whole concept believable. Don't be surprised if we see random Thermal Clips out in the middle of the desert on some backwater planet, like there is some universal Thermal Clip company that just dumps them in random locations. 

 

Right, like Collector ship and Collector base.

[TheRevanchist]

To be honest, Bioware actually attempting to say how Thermal Clips were somehow technologically superior to the old Heat Venting system was hilariously laughable. There is no logical way you can justify a system with unlimited ammo capacity is inferior in ANYWAY to a system where if you run out of these arbitrary "heat sinks" in the middle of a firefight, you are basically **** out of luck and you're dead. No military in the history of the universe would make that kind of trade off. It is literally a technological downgrade. Conrad Verner even points out how dumb this change was in ME3, which means Bioware is aware of how stupid this is. But you can bet your ass they are never going to change it. It was far easier for them to just slap a generic ammo system into their franchise rather than refine their unique-ish system of unlimited ammo.

[SardaukarElite]

I think the problem with ME1's system was rhythm and feel. You could shoot for a long time then wait for a long time with the starter guns. It made them swing between crazy and useless, and the feedback was kind of lackluster. The reload mechanic let them borrow conventional shooter wisdom and fire length to wait length was snappier and the reload animations had a nice feel. But the lore was stupid(er than it was before) and picking up ammo everywhere has no impact on the game until you run out which is inane.

 

However given Battlefront implemented an entirely satisfactory cooldown mechanic I'd be surprised if BioWare didn't follow with something similar. 

[Furisco]

I think this system would be really cool.

 

[TheRevanchist]

I think this system would be really cool.

 

 

I would totally support that, however Bioware has once again already made sure this will not happen, as they took the time to explain how totally impossible that is, because the Thermal Clip system is apparently "too big" and they couldn't shrink the venting system enough to fit them both into the weapons......yea....

[yolobastien6412]

The reload mechanic just makes the game feel more military shooter centric. I really want to see ME1 weapon system come back, or have us able to choose which weapon system before heading out to missions. Are we going onto a MW ship fighting pirates? Take the ME2 or ME3 weapons. Getting dropped on a Khet controlled planet? Take the infinite ammo ME1 weapons (I doubt these aliens use thermal clips. It would actually be impossible that Andromedans use thermal clips. When you think about it, even we humans do not use the same electricity sockets, and we are on the same planet. Pls don't ignore this Bioware. I was surprised enough that a Salarian ship could dock on the Normandy.

[TheRevanchist]

The reload mechanic just makes the game feel more military shooter centric. I really want to see ME1 weapon system come back, or have us able to choose which weapon system before heading out to missions. Are we going onto a MW ship fighting pirates? Take the ME2 or ME3 weapons. Getting dropped on a Khet controlled planet? Take the infinite ammo ME1 weapons (I doubt these aliens use thermal clips. It would actually be impossible that Andromedans use thermal clips. When you think about it, even we humans do not use the same electricity sockets, and we are on the same planet. Pls don't ignore this Bioware. I was surprised enough that a Salarian ship could dock on the Normandy.

 

Oh they will, trust me. They absolutely will.

[Xerxes52]

Personally I'd like to go back to overheating rather than thermal clips, but Bioware should look at how the M7 Lancer and Prothean Particle Rifle worked in ME3. They were far more balanced than ME1's concept, what with all the Frictionless Materials that could be found.