164 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

Of course the topic of whether early game SR's really had much benefit on anybody in ME1 is pretty significant. They almost were a mid-late game luxury item, even if somewhat fun. Early game models can't hit much, overheat frequently, and you have a lot of sway without point investment

Also, in ME1, sniper rifles and pistols and even the Mako cannon all have exactly the same maximum range.

[Cyonan]

Of course the topic of whether early game SR's really had much benefit on anybody in ME1 is pretty significant.  They almost were a mid-late game luxury item, even if somewhat fun.  Early game models can't hit much, overheat frequently, and you have a lot of sway without point investment.

 

Maybe the "problem" with ME2 was that the team had too many min-maxers on it, and that was how they were determining which things to streamline.

 

Yeah, the main reason I like using SRs early game in ME1 is because I find the increased challenge of the sway to be fun.

 

Overall I think ME2 had the best weapon balance so it was probably helpful to have those min/maxers on the team, they should probably just have eased up on the whole ammo thing a little bit since it can actually get pretty limited for some weapons.

[thepiebaker]

Yeah, the main reason I like using SRs early game in ME1 is because I find the increased challenge of the sway to be fun.

Overall I think ME2 had the best weapon balance so it was probably helpful to have those min/maxers on the team, they should probably just have eased up on the whole ammo thing a little bit since it can actually get pretty limited for some weapons.

I've had no problem with the SR in ME1. There is a scripted pattern for the sway. You learn that you can move your joystick/mouse to counter it and stay reasonably on target. Sure you don't want to aim for a headshot but in ME1 there wasn't a heads hot modifier anyway

[Cyonan]

I've had no problem with the SR in ME1. There is a scripted pattern for the sway. You learn that you can move your joystick/mouse to counter it and stay reasonably on target. Sure you don't want to aim for a headshot but in ME1 there wasn't a heads hot modifier anyway

 

I don't have any problems either, but a scope with a sway brings a bit more challenge than completely un-moving.

[capn233]

The sway isn't horrible, since it is predictable.  The real problem is the early game rifles just aren't good, but that is a problem a lot of weapon classes have.  So you need to get Basic Assassination to have much hope of any damage, and even then the 75% boost is sort of weak, at least for Insanity.

 

Pistols are pretty good either way, and it doesn't hurt that an NPC on Eden Prime hands you a much better than average one right off the bat.

 

Shotguns got the short end of the stick, in no small part due to Carnage glitches / ammo oddity.

[Xen]

Early game ME1 snipers can sort of be made to work with either quickscoping or hardcover. They still aren't great, but at least on Insanity are good for a couple of alpha strikes using Assassination, before everyone activates Immunity

 

They get pretty good by mid/late game, but by that time AR's and Pistols are infinite ammo, perfect accuracy, full auto lazer beams

[AngryFrozenWater]

Early game ME1 snipers can sort of be made to work with either quickscoping or hardcover. They still aren't great, but at least on Insanity are good for a couple of alpha strikes using Assassination, before everyone activates Immunity

 

They get pretty good by mid/late game, but by that time AR's and Pistols are infinite ammo, perfect accuracy, full auto lazer beams

I assume that last sentence indicates that you didn't like the progression. And that's odd, because the player can determine the skill level and what weapon mod to install or not. It's like say that this progression was forced upon you. If you didn't like it then you could have done with less. Sounds pretty simple to me.

 

Why didn't you complain about the perfect accuracy in ME2 and later? There you didn't even have a choice.

[capn233]

I would assume those comments were mostly supposed to be with regards to balance.  What someone might determine to be the cutoff of useful is subjective, but late game AR will do the best average DPS of anything, while Pistols will do the best burst under Marksman.  SR's are pretty much always behind pistols and ARs of the same rarity tier and level, but late game the difference is more pronounced, especially in the case of ARs since they actually have some accuracy.

[AngryFrozenWater]

I would assume those comments were mostly supposed to be with regards to balance.  What someone might determine to be the cutoff of useful is subjective, but late game AR will do the best average DPS of anything, while Pistols will do the best burst under Marksman.  SR's are pretty much always behind pistols and ARs of the same rarity tier and level, but late game the difference is more pronounced, especially in the case of ARs since they actually have some accuracy.

In MP there is more need for balance. In SP you can tweak the game the way you like it. There were many options for that in ME1. If one ends up with a situation where you aren't happy with the progress then it was self-inflicted, because you were not forced to go that route.

[Xen]

I assume that last sentence indicates that you didn't like the progression. And that's odd, because the player can determine the skill level and what weapon mod to install or not. It's like say that this progression was forced upon you. If you didn't like it then you could have done with less. Sounds pretty simple to me.

 

Why didn't you complain about the perfect accuracy in ME2 and later? There you didn't even have a choice.

Being singleplayer is not an excuse for bad balance. If the option is decidedly inferior, there's little reason to take it. I still used ME1 snipers, but they drastically slow down the game due to their relative ineffectiveness even if used at range (late game Pistols make better sniper weapons).

 

It's also no excuse for bad gameplay as in ME1. Going full auto with zero recoil, bloom or ammunition capacity restrictions is atrocious gunplay design. It didn't help that the game grossly lacked variety with only 5 unique weapons (all snipers, shotties, pistols and rifles were the same, Geth Pulse Rifle being the only outlier)

 

I didn't complain about "perfect accuracy" in later games because it didn't exist on literally anything but bolt action snipers (where it is fine, and indeed the whole point of the weapon type), instead of appearing on every weapon. Recoil, bloom, and first shot spread all exist, and are further modified by hardcover use as well as certain powers. ( perhaps explain why Marksman and Hunter Mode have accuracy boosts if weapons were already perfectly accurate?).  Use a BPP, Hurricane, hell even the basic Avenger without accuracy boosts or trigger discipline, and then come bact to tell me about your perfect accuracy.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Being singleplayer is not an excuse for bad balance. If the option is decidedly inferior, there's little reason to take it. ...

Exactly. So, why did you take the options that made the game unbalanced, according to you, anyway? Nobody forced you.

[In Exile]

Exactly. So, why did you take the options that made the game unbalanced, according to you, anyway? Nobody forced you.

That doesn't make sense. Why should I have to intentionally gimp myself to get a challenge?

[Xen]

Exactly. So, why did you take the options that made the game unbalanced, according to you, anyway? Nobody forced you.

The same reason I occasionally will use complete garbage weapons or setups in PvP games: simply because it's there. It adds some variety to change things up on occasion, but it would be even better if it were an equally or at least relatively viable option on its own merits, and therefore were worth using more often.

 

It goes the other way, too, except cheesing away the game with a brokenly OP setup is even worse, and it defeats the purpose of including higher difficulty levels. In fact, it really defeats the purpose of even playing for me. May as well read a book or watch a movie if I want a passive experience.

 

Gimping yourself only goes so far, and often leads to "difficulty" via tedium (e.g. using a pathetic weapon and turning every enemy into a bullet sponge) rather than actual challenge. I'm not going to make excuses for poorly designed gameplay when plenty of other games get balancing of various mechanics, items and difficulties right. Foutunately, Bioware did learn from their mistakes and ME2-3 are much better designed from a gameplay perspective (though not without faults, particularly ME3's weight based PRS system).

[AngryFrozenWater]

That doesn't make sense. Why should I have to intentionally gimp myself to get a challenge?

Huh? Don't switch it around. Xen implied that one got too strong at the end of ME1. You guys make it appear that you are forced to take options that make you overpowered. Well, you are not.

[AngryFrozenWater]

The same reason I occasionally will use complete garbage weapons or setups in PvP games: simply because it's there. It adds some variety to change things up on occasion, but it would be even better if it were an equally or at least relatively viable option on its own merits, and therefore were worth using more often.

 

It goes the other way, too, except cheesing away the game with a brokenly OP setup is even worse, and it defeats the purpose of including higher difficulty levels. In fact, it really defeats the purpose of even playing for me. May as well read a book or watch a movie if I want a passive experience.

 

Gimping yourself only goes so far. I'm not going to make excuses for poorly designed gameplay when plenty of other games get balancing of various mechanics and difficulties right.

If you feel that you are becoming overpowered then you can simply stop that. You can balance the game yourself.

 

It's much like: There are always cheats, loopholes, and so on, in gameplay, but that doesn't mean you have to use them.

[Xen]

Huh? Don't switch it around. Xen implied that one got to strong at the end of ME1. You guys make it appear that you are forced to take options that make you over powered. Well, you are not.

This is akin to defending Gran Turismo's pathetic AI by saying I could technically drive a Prius against prototype Le Mans race cars if I want a "challenge".

 

Yeah, I can (and have, for a giggle), but it's laughable design, and other racing games have done much, much better.

[AngryFrozenWater]

This is akin to defending Gran Turismo's pathetic AI by saying I could technically drive a Prius against prototype Le Mans race cars if I want a "challenge".

 

Yeah, I can (and have, for a giggle), but it's laughable design, and other racing games have done much, much better.

If you mean that having these options is "laughable design" then I rather have a "laughable design" than no options.

[capn233]

Exactly. So, why did you take the options that made the game unbalanced, according to you, anyway? Nobody forced you.

 

Balance is good in single player.  The game is better when there is compelling choice between alternatives, not simply a few things that outclass everything else.  ME1 and ME3 are the most guilty of this sin, and it is even apparent in ME3 MP.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Balance is good in single player.  The game is better when there is compelling choice between alternatives, not simply a few things that outclass everything else.  ME1 and ME3 are the most guilty of this sin, and it is even apparent in ME3 MP.

In ME1, every mod has a level. You can have up to two mods. There are many different mods. It's up to the player to select the ones that fits the play style and the difficulty. Again, you can make choices that make weapons to become overpowered. You don't have to. But, no, it appears that some players think they have to equip the best mods available, then realize that they became overpowered. Instead of taking a step back some players declare it's the game's fault. I really don't get that logic.

 

I have no experience with the balancing issues in ME3 MP. Therefor I cannot comment on that.

[Xen]

If you mean that having these options is a "laughable design" then I rather have a laughable design than no options.

That's what difficulty settings are for. To continue with the same analogy, ideally if I want to successfully race a prius against high tech race cars, I crank it down to novice and the opponents become potato. Then, I put it on Michael Shumacher difficulty if I want to be symmetrically challenged. Both options exist. Everyone is happy.

 

If I can still win with the Prius on the highest setting it's a problem, because what if I want to actually participate in a symmetrically balanced race with the race car?

 

I can't, the option isn't there. I can either race with a prius or  bore myself running glorified time trials with a faster vehicle. Similarly, I can either not level my character, never upgrade from my Avenger 1, and then put 30 bullets into the head of every single mook, or equalize with, use decent equipment and ROFLstomp them even on the highest difficulty. It's either no difficulty, or "difficulty" via sheer tedium, which isn't fun for long.

 

There's no option for a balanced engagement with a similarly equipped and relatively capable opposing force, despite the fact that ME's design allows for asymmetrical numbers of AI enemies that should be able to compensate for my superior capabilities to a point. I don't expect them to account for the .001% of high speed players who will be able to exploit obscure meta strats with a high skill floor, but I shouldn't be able to effortlessly defeat "Insanity" with blatantly telegraphed, intended tactics I could probably train a retarded and half blind chimp to employ successfully. (activate Overkill > hold fire key> GG no re, or Charge > Nova for an ME3 example).   

[AngryFrozenWater]

That's what difficulty settings are for. ...

Exactly. Your options in ME1:

 

- Global difficulty settings.

- Weapon level.

- Mod level.

- 0, 1 or 2 mods per weapon.

- Weapon skill level.

 

You don't have to select the easiest game mode. You don't have to equip level 10 weapons. You don't have to use level 10 mods. You don't have to equip two mods. You don't have to reach the highest weapon proficiency.

 

So, I don't get the problem.

[Xen]

Exactly. Your options in ME1:

 

- Global difficulty settings.

- Weapon level.

- Mod level.

- 0, 1 or 2 mods per weapon.

- Weapon skill level.

 

You don't have to select the easiest game mode. You don't have to equip level 10 weapons. You don't have to use level 10 mods. You don't have to equip two mods. You don't have to reach the highest weapon proficiency.

 

So, I don't get the problem.

I could also turn the sound off, adjust the brightness to minimum, put on a blindfold (probably redundant, but hey "it's an option") remove buttons from my controller and down a handle of bathtub gin before playing. That doesn't mean it's good gameplay design when other video games exist that also offer all these "options", but can additionally provide actual, unique challenges when played with either suboptimal or Min/Max settings over a wide variety of builds.

 

Actually, that's a bit unfair......to the things I mentioned. Playing blind, deaf, without the ability to change weapons, plastered and potentially dying from liver failure is significantly different from not and requires a different approach. Playing with a shitty (but otherwise identically handling) weapon with derp mods and unspent skill points simply means I have to kite the dumb krogan around the crate unloading rounds into his face for an extra two laps.

 

In this series alone, ME2 was arguably a good example of good balance, especially before power creep from DLC gear/abilities. Still a bit easy even on Insanity (IMO), but only for the top 1% or so.

[AngryFrozenWater]

...

 

Playing with a shitty (but otherwise identically handling) weapon with derp mods and unspent skill points just means I have to kite the dumb krogan around the crate unloading rounds into his face for an extra two laps.

 

...

So, you think weapons at the end of ME1 are overpowered, but you don't want to scale that back to what you perceive as a balanced state. In your mind doing that, using the many options given to the player, will produce a shitty (but otherwise identically handling) weapon with derp mods and unspent skill points. OK. If you say so.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Being singleplayer is not an excuse for bad balance. If the option is decidedly inferior, there's little reason to take it.

Even if it's more fun?

[straykat]

I've play SR only playthroughs.. I guess it was tedious until midway through. 

 

I still prefer soldier though. I get all of that and more. I like the swiss army knife feel.