108 odpowiedzi w tym temacie

[Marshal Moriarty]

Well, here I am. I guess the pull cannot be overcome

 

Pasquale. if you're just going to ignore the facts, what debate is possible here? Hawke has no life goals? Hmm, let's see... Amassing money and influence enough to keep the Templars away and raise her family out of poverty and reclaim their ancestral home and title? That doesn't count? Not even when she suceeds in doing that? How about to become someone of importance in the city (Varric asks what her amibitions are in Act 2), and she does that too by becoming Champion? That doesn't count either as a goal set and achieved? What kinds of things *do* you consider life goals?! Invent space ships, achieve personal teleportation, travel in time?!

 

And you can role play Hawke. He/She is who you decide she is, what politics she has and what kinds of attitude she takes. I presume you are referring to not being able to select your race etc. But Bioware consistenty runs into trouble with that (the Dalish Inquisitor who doesn't know who Mythal is, the fact that past the Origin stories and Ostagar, practically all the NPCs except Kester in the game refer to you simply as Warden and treat that as your race effectively. You are not persecuted or railed against or insulted for being an Elf or Dwarf or Mage. It is quickly and definitvely homongenized into you being a Grey Warden and that is the only thing people see when they look at you.

 

And I hope when you say Hawke failed miserably at keeping her family secure, you are planning to apologize to everyone who has had a family member murdered, yes? You are after all accusing them of failing their families. And lest we forget, the Warden also loses their family in several of the Origins or over the course of the game. Was that their fault too? Stop being such a fool - you can't live the lives of your kin for them. You can't be with them 24/7. Hawke raised them from poverty, and was returned their noble title to them. But Bethany was on the run from the Circle and it was only going to be a matter of time. As for the Deep Roads, anyone who is around Darkspawn runs that risk - your siblings state before they go that they have accepted that possibility. And the death at the start? A group of around 5 warriors against the Darkspawn horde and they lose people. Well that truly is shocking...

 

Hawkje only becomes Champion in Act 3, and can be involved in the process of supporting one side or the other, or trying to remain neutral. But *it is not her role to do this* so she cannot just click her fingers and order one side or both sides to back down. Appeals to Elthina reveal go nowhere because she only has as much practical authority as the Templars and Mages are willing to give her. If she pushes too hard, they will simply ignore her completely. Bran also states the city and nobility are basically powerless because Meredith has shown in her treatment of the previous Viscount Perrin Threnhold that she will and does act against any Nobiity or Viscount who attempt to curtail the Templars. And since the Templars have the only mandate to oversee the Circles, Hawke cannot intervene openly there either. That doesn't mean you can't work behind the scenes, and it *is* possible to do that, but Bioware Final Act syndrome strikes again, being rushed and unsatisying as it is in every game they have ever made (The Star Forge anyone? The Conduit? That silly King Kong Terminator Reaper thing?' Bioware are awful at endings (as we see in all its glory in DAI).

 

And having the Guard Captain as a friend is no real help in this regard. Before Act 3, Aveline supports Meredith and the Templars, because she doesn't trust mages. But in Act 3, the Templars start to try to muscle and weasel her out of office. Her hands are full just keeping the Guard in place at all. If she gives the Templars any reason to disband them, they will take it.

 

The narrative is yours in DAO, but that completely undercuts the story, because then it proceeds to your whims. The story can never engage me if I feel I have total control over it, succeeding when I want to suceed, failing when I want to fail. And I don't know what you want in terms of personality. You only ever get a limited set of options in any game - it simply isn't possible to do otherwise. DA2 monitors how you respond and moulds Hawke's demeanour to match that during the cutscenes. Again you want total control, and again I say that limits the experience. It means you can never have dynamic scenes where characters talk and act, you are always stuck in 'People stand opposite each other and deliver lines of dialogue with infinite time to choose' even in the middle of fights sometimes! (ME2 when you meet Jacob for example).

 

And it leads to absurd situations where you have control over things you never would have (the Litany of Adralla is held and used by you... because why/ Why would Wynne entrust you with it, when she could just take it and use it herself? Surely its better for someone who knows what the damn thing is to be using it anyway? And since you are in all but one of the Origins, a complete unknown to her, its inconceivable that she would let you have it - it *belongs* to the Circle, and there is no argument your Warden could make for being the one to have it. Or the decision to have the Werewolves kill the Dalish. Everyone except Morrigan (who until this point has praised the Dalish and said how fearsome and dangerous the Werewolves are), think its a crazy plan. The Dalish aren't exactly friendly, but the Werewolves have consistently attacked you and refused to speak. And since they use bites and claws and wear no armor, they would make for highly suspect allies against the Darkspawn no? They'd just become infected as they were fighting and then you'd have a small force of Blighted Werewolves against you! Nice job breaking it Hero. Or the decision to head over to the Circle Tower and leave Connor in Redcliffe, because what's the worst that could happen. Besides well, mind controlling teagan and ordering a zombie horde to destroy the village whilst you're gone. But apart from that...

 

Yes, it gives you options. Very strange and bizarre options that your entire party often think 'What on earth are you up to?' And your characters are never called out on their nonsense. That makes it less credible for me, and it wastes development time. Many of these options have such low take up rates when they are polled that its basically just been a huge waste of time to even include them. There is content for Morinth if you recruit her in ME2 for example, but she consistently polls below 5% in terms of people who actually do that! Is is really worth putting in such content, especially when it creates te endless dilemma of people getting all uppity when their obscure choices aren't given lots (or any) continuity and content in subsequent games. Because Bioware realize that nobody actually chooses these options, and beyond one time curiosity to see what it does, any content, dev time and money spent on accounting for these kinds of things is good money after bad. If it was a single game, then there wouldn't be a problem. But as part of a series, it just throws up all kinds of irreconcible issues that Bioware are forced to retcon or write out of existence.

 

The other Bioware protagonists are not relatable to me, because they live their lives in equivalents of the Batcave, they are handed privilege and are free to act outside of the cares that ordinary citizens have. They are always part of secret societies and/or have license to do whatever they please etc. And for someone who has complained so bitterly about Hawke doing nothing (wrongly IMO), you then say there was no reason to stay when her family was gone? How about the fact she had built a life there? That she felt like she wanted to be of service to the city? That she had made her mother a promise that the Hawke and Amell family name would come to be respected in this city again? You continually ignore the facts of DA2, for generalized comments which have no basis in fact. Hawke saves the city many times over, but that doesn't matter to you. She saves the Templar Order but that doesn't matter either. She raises herself from poverty by herself and her own hands, rather be given castles and forts and titles that she has not earned. And she has to deal with poltical opponents and the prejudices of ordinary people, race politics and religion. And that requires you to tread carefully.

 

Unlike the Warden who ignores her mandate not to get involved in Orzammar, and ensures that the Wardens will be rememberd for meddling in these affairs, which has always been disastrous for them as both Duncan and Riordan tell you. With no knowledge of the candidates (unless they are the Dwarf Noble), they have decided Orzammar policy and leadership for years. They have either placed a tyrant on the throne who will (and does) murder his opponents and activiely employs the Carta as his agents and assassins. Whose only reason for easing Caste restrictions is that he wants to rule all Dwarfs everywhere. Or you place a weak leader on the throne and leave them in stasis. You did not choose the candidates, but you did ensure that one of them won. Its against the Warden's charter, and its incredibly foolish to get involved anyway because you make yourself into a scapegoat when things go wrong.

 

They are different kinds of story, with different kinds of problems and different kinds of protagonist. The Warden works for the high fantasy, much recycled ancient evil returns storyline that was getting old even in DAO. Its a good game and though a little over famiiar, it does what you expect of The Bioware RPG They Keep Making Over and Over Again. But that was precisely the problems and the devs even said that at the time, that they wanted DA2 to do something new. To not be a game where your hero is instantly someone super special, where it isn't just another ancient evil returning. To give us a more down to earth hero with problems closer to what we actually face. How to get enough money to get by, how to make something out of your life, how to deal with extremist elements. You continually characterize Hawke's actions as failure, but without her the Templars would be infiltrated by demons, the city would have been sacked by the Qunari, and all the Mages would have been massacred (or the Templars would have as the Mages resorted to Blood Mages and demon summoning to defend themselves). And if Meredith had survived, the city would have been run by a increasingly deranged (and probably eventually possessed) madwoman.

 

Your criteria for success are very odd. If damage to the city is your concern, then what about Denerim? It was sacked by the Darkspawn, the market and palace in flames. King Cailan is killed along with the rest of the wardens in Ferelden. The Inquisitor's watch sees the Divine killed, the Temple of Sacred Ashes destroyed, the Templar Order or the Free Mages corrupted and conscripted to fight for Tevinter Supermacists, the possible assasination of Empress Celene (or execution of Duke Gaspard, a matter which you had business interfering in). I suppose these failires happen to those characters, that's just alright is it? You'll have a list of excuses, and its fine to do that yet it isn't okay to do that for Hawke?

 

Like I say, if you're going to ignore the facts, then what debate is possible? I have at least conceded that DAO is the better game, and that for the story it tells, the Warden is a perfectly acceptable and fun protagnist to play. Your arguments are just the same 'DAO rules, DA2 sucks' nonsense that we hear so often. Each to their own opinions, I guess. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

 

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In DAO and DAI, the narrative is entirely mine. I know exactly what my character is thinking and feeling, their goals, their priorities, their motives, their personal agendas, and what they hope to accomplish with everything they do and say. My character also has a fair bit of control over what she does when. Hawke is a complete enigma to me.
 

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No, but they're interpreting them and doing the actual acting. In DA2, the VA and cinematic animators already did all of that. All I got to do was decide whether Hawke would deliver the previously performed and recorded diplomatic, snarky, or aggressive line.
 

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Speaking of missing the point...
 

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I'm not saying every game should be like DA2, but I'm really glad at least that game was. A more down to earth narrative, a more relatable ordinary and fallible protagonist

Sorry, but Hawke is completely unrelatable to me. I cannot fathom why she would stay in Kirkwall once her family was gone.
 

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with actual life goals

Those goals were... what exactly?

[Pasquale1234]

Pasquale. if you're just going to ignore the facts, what debate is possible here?

Hawke has no life goals? Hmm, let's see... Amassing money and influence enough to keep the Templars away and raise her family out of poverty and reclaim their ancestral home and title? That doesn't count?

What facts am I ignoring?

A short-term immediate need, completed by the end of Act 1.
 

How about to become someone of importance in the city (Varric asks what her amibitions are in Act 2), and she does that too by becoming Champion?

That doesn't count either as a goal set and achieved? What kinds of things *do* you consider life goals?! Invent space ships, achieve personal teleportation, travel in time?!

Yes, I remember that conversation. I chose 'taking care of family' as the answer, and fulfilling that goal was actively denied by the middle of that Act.

Hawke was declared Champion as a result of being there to squelch the Qunari uprising. It was not something she set as a goal, planned, and worked toward.

That kind of snark does not promote honest discussion.
 

And you can role play Hawke. He/She is who you decide she is, what politics she has and what kinds of attitude she takes.

No, Hawke is entirely BioWare's character. Selecting only paraphrases frequently results in Hawke delivering dialogue that alludes to thoughts, feelings, motives I had not envisioned for the character. I had to complete a couple of playthroughs to get to the know the character instead of the other way around.
 

I presume you are referring to not being able to select your race etc.

You presume wrong. I usually play humans anyway.
 

Stop being such a fool - you can't live the lives of your kin for them. You can't be with them 24/7.

You do realize, I hope, that it's possible to disagree with someone without casting aspersions on their intelligence and character?

That entire scenario was foreshadowed twice - in the first act by discovering Emeric's investigation, and again with Ghyslain. Hawke had no agency to pursue the former, and the latter led to a dead-end. At no point was Hawke given the opportunity to even warn Leandra about the potential danger, and I don't recall ever being able to discuss it with Aveline for City Guard support, either.
 

The narrative is yours in DAO, but that completely undercuts the story, because then it proceeds to your whims.

I don't play RPGs to experience an authored story. I play them to role-play a character, which requires that the character have a certain amount of agency to act. When I want to experience an authored story, I read a novel or watch film.
 

DA2 monitors how you respond and moulds Hawke's demeanour to match that during the cutscenes.

I believe David Gaider referred to this mechanic as "card tricks in the dark".

In any case, it's a mechanic that I (and apparently a lot of other people) really disliked, because it meant that Hawke sometimes behaved inappropriately in certain situations. The dialogue options were all tone-based, and I don't think it's at all unusual for someone to be diplomatic in some situations with some people, snarky in some situations with some people, and assertive in some situations with some people - but that mechanic tried to force the character toward one dominant personality/tone in all situations. I'm glad they dispensed with it.
 

And it leads to absurd situations where you have control over things you never would have (the Litany of Adralla is held and used by you... because why/ Why would Wynne entrust you with it, when she could just take it and use it herself?

Huh? Nothing I've said here precludes other NPCs having agency to do things like use the Litany.
 

The other Bioware protagonists are not relatable to me, because they live their lives in equivalents of the Batcave, they are handed privilege and are free to act outside of the cares that ordinary citizens have. They are always part of secret societies and/or have license to do whatever they please etc.

It is possible for a protagonist to have and achieve personal goals without any of those characteristics. I quite enjoy playing The Sims, for example - they have no special secret abilities, but I can set and achieve goals with them.
 

And for someone who has complained so bitterly about Hawke doing nothing

When did I do that?

[vnth]

My point is that people are placing entirely unreasonable demands on Hawke and completely discounting her sucesses. Why couldn't she mount 24 hour surveillance on Petrice? Well how would that even work? Petrice is a ranking member of the Chantry - is Hawke supposed to slink along from pillar to pillar after her, and use some kind of spyglass to peep at her letters etc? And Hawke has a life of her own - she tells the authorities what Petrice is doing, but they take no steps to stop it. And it would hardly have mattered if they had, as someone else would simply have stepped in. You cannot change ideology - the Chantry with its 'Sing the chant from all the corners of the world' and the Qun's 'All lands must learn the truth of the Qun' are directly opposed. The Quanri were not going to leave unless their mission was completed or the city itself forced them out. None of this is anything Hawke could have affected, without knowledge she could not have been privy to.

 

Hawke is trying to keep her family safe and secure her financial situation in Act 1. That doesn't make her blind to the problems of the city, but neither does she have the authority or the time to start acting like some version of Batman, rooting out injustice and conducting extralegal investigations. She does help remove the corrupt Captain of the Guard and save the Templar Order from being inflitrated by demons though, so I hardly think you could say she spends Act 1 twiddling her thumbs!

 

My point on realism is that Hawke is not given the same insider advantages that the Warden gets. The treaties allow them to walk on in, speak immediately to the people in charge and be listened to, and their Warden status (even though eaned only weeks ago, and not knowing anything at all about the Order), gives them a powerful sway with many people because of the history of the wardens. Also, the Blight is a very obvious threat that affects everyone, so people are more likely to be open and forthcoming with solutions and offers of help, rather than ignoring or obstructing you. And finally, as I said before, the problems that the Warden is given are always given direct solutions (go here and get this, kill this person, find this document etc). That is very different to both predicting and stopping rebellions and revolutions in organizations to which you do not belong! And its only in Act 3 that Hawke gains any kind of authority, but even then it is mostly symbolic and certainly doesn't grant any kind of authority over the Templars and Mages. Its a start, but events spiral out of control, as by that time the Templars have already in effect seized control of the city.

 

youre conflating different issues here. true agency does not exist in video games. video games can only foster the illusion of agency through things like "silver bullets" as you said. neither warden nor hawke were in control of their situation, but the warden was in control of his success, which, in turn, creates an illusion of agency. taking the silver bullets away does not make the story anymore realistic, simply more frustrating. as i have already pointed out, if hawke is not a failure then that would implies that realistically no one could have done a single thing better in his situation, which is obviously absurd. the point is that da's goal was never about telling a super gritty story. it's about seeing how your actions create a ripple effect throughout the game's world, which da2, and to some extent, dai, have largely failed to do. so yes, hawke is a failure, not only because he was written to be one, but also because his story simply doesnt fit in da's style of you deciding for yourself whether things will be "good" or "bad." under other circumstances, da2 wouldnt be that big a disappointment. however, as a da game, it is.

[Pasquale1234]

Your criteria for success are very odd. If damage to the city is your concern, then what about Denerim? It was sacked by the Darkspawn, the market and palace in flames. King Cailan is killed along with the rest of the wardens in Ferelden. The Inquisitor's watch sees the Divine killed, the Temple of Sacred Ashes destroyed, the Templar Order or the Free Mages corrupted and conscripted to fight for Tevinter Supermacists, the possible assasination of Empress Celene (or execution of Duke Gaspard, a matter which you had business interfering in). I suppose these failires happen to those characters, that's just alright is it? You'll have a list of excuses, and its fine to do that yet it isn't okay to do that for Hawke?

My Warden's (well, most of them anyway) primary goal was to end the blight, the method was to secure the assistance promised by the treaties. Every step accomplished, goal achieved, character successful.

My Inquisitor's primary goal involved closing rifts, identifying and stopping the responsible party, and restoring some measure of stability and security to the areas involved. Goals achieved, character successful. (BTW - the Divine was killed and the Temple destroyed before the character joined the Inquisition.)

Hawke never really had an overall primary goal. She had an initial (survival-related) goal to gain admittance to Kirkwall, then get back the family estate, all done by the end of Act 1. Taking care of family is also a goal I could get behind, and if they'd let me save Leandra, I probably would have felt very differently about my experience with the game. Losing the siblings? Bummer, but **** happens. Losing Leandra was where the whole thing really went south for me, because it made Hawke's achievements thus far (reclaiming the estate) seem pointless since the entire desire to do that was for Mom. It also meant that she'd completely failed her nearest and dearest (only, actually) goal to take care of her family. Accumulating more wealth, power, prestige? Unless those things are resources I can actually use toward some purpose in the game, I don't care about them. I can't role-play a character if I don't know their goals and motives. If a character does have apparent goals I don't care about, then I'm not going to care about their story.

[Marshal Moriarty]

How is getting your family's title and estate, plus having enough money to allow your traumatized mother to have some measure of peace and comfort not a goal worth pursuing? As life goals go, its pretty much what the majority of the populace wants, isn't it? Its something which I think most of us would like to have, is it not? Or were you born with enough money to live comfortably? They are squatting in their uncle's house in a dangerous slum. And I think going from rags to riches counts as a decent day's work in anyone's book. There are people who work their whole lives and never raise themself out of poverty and never make enough to give their family the kind of lifestyle they would like them to enjoy. And here you are just dismissing it out of hand...

 

You and vnth are typical of those who parrot the 'Hawke just fails at everything', continually evading the fact that she has many sucesses (and that before you are allowed to just decide for yourself, the Warden has scripted failures in DAO, not to mention the ending where they march their new army out to Redcliffe on the outskirts of Ferelden and then have to march straight back to Denerim where they just came from, in time to see it in flames... and that's not a blunder?) Until you stop just hand waving those away with a 'Oh they don't count' then how am I supposed to take any of what you say seriously? When you are presenting as classic an example of the typical attittude to DA2? You just keep ignoring the facts! Is it wrong to want the facts straight, and tire of you parroting the same erroneous lines?

 

Hawke tells her mother she will make the name respected in the city, that it will mean something again. That is a goal, and it is achieved. Hawke agrees to hep the viscount deal with the problem as it escalates. And she does, even trying to warn him after Seamus is killed that he needs to pull himself together because the Arishok will act soon. But the Viscount is too traumatised to listen, and too weak to do anything anyway. Short of marching in there herself and beating all of them alone, what else could be done? Cullen has already told her that the Templars will not act unless the city is actively attacked, because until then it doesn't fall under the Templar's mandate to intervene.

 

And I won't be lectured to by someone who said that Hawke failed miserably at protecting her family. It was utterly offensive to anyone who has had family members murdered or have died of disease. If it happened to you, I suspect most here would be sorry for your loss. I kno I would be. But to take your statement at face value, it seems all we'd get from you if the roles were reversed is 'Well you should have looked after them then, shouldn't you?' I'll take snark over that kind of foolish statement any day.

 

But the fact is that DAO places *you* in charge of the litany, not Wynne. Because the game wants *you* to be the one who saves the mages, or lets them die. From a narrative standpoint, it makes no sense and is indicative of Bioware's need to have their main protagonists take over everyone else's roles, because they are the hero. Its artificial and is giving the player the decision when they would not have it. Or when taking the sacred ashes believing it will heal Arl Eamon (because if you didn't then as Sten points out, why would you go to all this trouble, when you could have spent the time on other needed quests?) you then decide to defile them... for the lulz? And not thinking that perhaps doing such a thing could compromise the healing power of the ashes you do have, as Andraste or The Maker are hardly likely to look with benevolence on you after that! It gives you more options, but at the risk of revealing its video gamish state taking me out of the narrative because options that this seem so utterly ridiculous.

 

'And a greater Grey Warden there has never been! Just last week I watched her selflessly sacrifice dozens of Elves in a Tevinter blood magic ritual that we accepted as a bribe to Raise. Her. Constitution!' (Raises arm in heroic pose).

 

'Hooray! Hooray! Praise our crazed, blood soaked Warden! Maker bless her! Hurrah!'

 

Its daft. You'd imagine that the ending slides would read 'The Warden stepped out to greet the crowd, and was instantly killed as some mages threw her a note wrapped around a fireball saying That's for deliberately not using the Litany when it was free to use and takes no time, you mage hating C**t'.

 

And yes, characters can have goals without being part of secret societies and having VIP - so tell that to Bioware! Because outside of DA2, they always do this! The spirit monks, the Spectres, the Grey Wardens, Cerberus, all copying the basic template they used with the Jedi in KOTOR. My argument has throughout this been that DA2 breaks that and several other moulds and ruts that they had fallen into. And that ME3 and DAI showed a depressing return to that.

 

You said Hawke was not relatable because she didn't leave the city when her family died.

 

 

But more than anyway, you should take a step back and really concentrate when I try to explain to you again that I like DAO and Bioware games in general. If I had no interest or placed no value in the way their games are made, then I would have never even made it to DA2. I like the way DAO and their other games present choices and agency, but I also felt (as many did, including Bioware themselves) that they were long overdue to try something else. And DA2 provided that for me with a character I felt closer to precisely because she shared real world concerns and had to keep striving in the face a world that can often feel like it beats down on you. The whole narrative was about finding a way to carry on in the face of adversity and great tragedy, as the events of the intro show with your family having to overcome losing their home and 1 of their own, Aveline losing Wesley and Flemeth finding a way to cheat her death in DAO.

 

My point has been that I welcomed this new direction and the general desire to break from their tired old formulae in so many departments, And that I prefer this to the structure of the other games. Yet you keep insisting that no, this has no value. It *must* be done the old way or its not a Bioware game or not a DA game or whatever.

 

In the hope you'll finally understand why I personally prefer them, I can say it no better than in the usual Bioware games, you can do more, but it means less to me. I feel like I can suceed whenever I wish, and the enemies cannot hurt me (outside of the regulation Crisis Level like the Leviathan, Collector abduction, Haven etc etc), nor can anyone tell me no. And if I fail its because I wished it so, and because it was something I felt I could live with and my characters could live with. Whereas in DA2, I see a world closer to the one I recognize, where things are not in your control. I am free to be who I am, to say what I think and try to make my actions try count and matter in what I do. But I cannot always suceed, because that is life. My family members will suffer tragedy and I cannot always prevent it, though I can try. I can set myself goals and work towards them, believing in myself that I can make it happen. And I have. Not always, but I try again through the worst of times, which sometimes never seem to end. Because life is all we have, and whilst we are here we have to keep making the best fist of it that we can.

 

Compared to that, the other Bioware games seem so trivial. Just escapist fiction of what life would be like if you could control everything. Nice, but ultimately it means little to me from a narrative standpoint unless it is very well written. And occasionally Bioware do manage that, though I still think they are too populist most of the time, and prefer Obsidian's writing, though that's just my preference. But DA2 was something different and it gave me hope that Bioware could say things to me that really spoke to me. And its sad to see them walking back from that to safer, more familiar territory.

 

And now I really am done. We've gotten way off topic (and I have a big hand in that, I accept), I am tired of discussing Inquisition anew, and if we keep going round and round, we'll never do anything else ever again. So agree to disagree or keep disagreeing until you grow old and gnarled, but I've had my say. Take it or leave it.

[Pasquale1234]

How is getting your family's title and estate, plus having enough money to allow your traumatized mother not a goal worth pursuing?

I repeat: it was a short-term, immediate goal, achieved by the end of the first Act.
 

You and vnth are typical of those who parrot the 'Hawke just fails at everything',

Nope. I've said that Hawke lacked achievable personal goals (beyond Act 1) and failed to protect her family.

I don't care that things didn't always go smoothly for other protagonists. I care that they had overriding goals they were working toward and able to achieve. I knew exactly what the Warden and Inquisitor (and Shepard x3) needed to accomplish at the outset of each of their respective games. I knew what my character needed to work toward; my character had motives for their actions, reasons for choices, etc. Hawke, otoh, spent most of the game reacting to other people's stuff instead of pursuing any goals of her own.
 

You just keep ignoring the facts!

I'll try again, since you didn't answer last time. What facts am I ignoring?
 

And I won't be lectured to by someone who said that Hawke failed miserably at protecting her family. It was utterly offensive to anyone who has had family members murdered or have died of disease. I'll take snark over that kind of foolish statement any day.

Alrighty then. I guess I'll go ahead and say that an attempt to draw a comparison between a FICTIONAL character who was given the FICTIONAL goal of trying to protect her family only to lose the last member to a FICTIONAL, ENTIRELY PREVENTABLE AND FORESHADOWED death to the loss of a loved one irl is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen on the internet.
 

And yes, characters can have goals without being part of secret societies and having VIP - so tell that to Bioware! Because outside of DA2, they always do this! The spirit monks, the Spectres, the Grey Wardens, Cerberus, all copying the basic template they used with the Jedi in KOTOR. My argument has throughout this been that DA2 breaks that and several other moulds and ruts that they had fallen into. And that ME3 and DAI showed a depressing return to that.

They did break formula in DA2, but unfortunately ended up with a character that didn't work for me. I think I could have been content with the game overall if they'd let Leandra live; it would have meant Hawke succeeded at her nearest and dearest goal, would have given me a reason to stay in Kirkwall and keep trying to make it better. Once Leandra was gone, I just couldn't care.
 

Yet you keep insisting that no, this has no value. It *must* be done the old way or its not a Bioware game or not a DA game or whatever.

No, I've said that DA2 didn't work for me, and explained the primary reasons why. My tastes and opinion are no more or less valuable than anyone else's.

[Marshal Moriarty]

Dress it up all you like, but your statememt was utterly grotesque. And no, it was not preventable. People always blame themselves when people close to them die, wondering if they could have done something. Statements like yours are the worst kind of insensitive idiocy, so shut up. The guard couldn't trace Quentin, neither could the Templars, and neither could Gaspard who was looking harder than anyone. There was no suggestion that Hawke's mother was in any danger until she was taken and by then it was too late. The other deaths were facts of life. Death in battle to an Ogre (or any other armed opponent) is just something that can happen on a battlefield. And contracting the Blight is a risk anyone takes if they head into the Deep Roads. The risks were accepted by everyone involved. It just happened, and it could have happened to anyone doing the same in DAO and DAI, barring the Warden and Alistair.

 

Getting enough money to live by and enough to live comfortably is everyone's goal. But hardly any of succeed - we're always just a little short of what we want, never quite there because of inflation etc. Hawke goes from the bottom tier to the top and brings her family with her. You're either a fool if you don't recognize this or a rich fool who can't understand it.

 

The facts you're ignoring? The Templars are saved from infiltration by demons, are they not? The city is saved from the Qunari and the Arishok defeated either in open battle by Hawke's team or in personal combat by Hawke herself. The people of Kirkwall consider it an achievement even if you don't. The city is saved again from Meredith and the demons and chaos unleashed by Anders' actions. Duke Prosper De Montfort is prevented from obtaining information that would eventually lead to war between Orlais and the Qunari (because in his fury, De Montfort killed Saleet, but when he calmed down he would look again at what he wasted all that time over, and realise that a list of every Qunari agent in Orlais was indeed a fine prize, and one which would have consequences that the Qunari would not have stood for). Varric's brother and Fenris' sister can be spared, saving your companions from regret and anguish (Varric tells Fenris that whilst it might feel like the only thing he wants to do, he will regret it forever if he does because of the way things ended with him and Bartrand).

 

Hawke can save the elven boy from becoming a dream stalker, and help him find his own path. Carver can come to accept that being made a Grey Warden was the best thing that ever happened to him, because he finally knows his true calling. The Kirkwall killer Quentin is stopped from causing any more harm, as is Gaspard DuPuis in most cases. Corrupt city officials are exposed and replaced, the actions of Mother Petrice and her faction are brought to light and ended. I could go on, but I imagine you'll just ignore all of them as usual, because 'Hawke's always a failure'. Here, let me pull the string on your back and have you say it again.

 

And again, Leandra could not have been saved. She doesn't mention Quentin, because moving on from Malcolm can be a sensitive topic between her and Hawke, and she's not sure regardless if she still has the looks to really have a serious chance at remarriage (not helped by Gamlen's oafish comments). Quentin was a apostate who had survived outside for years, because he was cunning and clever. He is eventually tracked down because in his mania he has gotten careless as the end of his work approaches (although Hawke can find him through Gaspard too). Quentin was also receiving help from Orsino which nobody could have known about. The city authorities fail to find him, as do the Templars with Gaspard. Because they are careful, only relaxing their guard when they feel victory is at hand (Gaspard only reveals his shades when he thinks Quentin has broken into his house).

 

Hawke is not equipped with some kind of scanning device or sonar equipment. In a whole foundry, are you really going to comb over it, tapping every floor and ceiling? The place deals in molten metals and waste - it will have many entrances to the sewers and channels underneath Lowtown. Without knowing which one is the right one, you'd just get lost and even worse would likely fall into a trap. When they return with Gaspard or after having tracked Quentin, they are helped by the fact that he is so deranged and desperate by this point, that he has relaxed his guard. And in case you want to still blame Hawke when everyone else in the city who was involved failed, we can just dwell on the real life serial killers who escape justice. It happens unfortunately and not because the authorities aren't trying.

 

Everyone is heartbroken for Hawke, but your opinion of 'You should have done better'? God, you must be a barrel of laughs to know... Anyway, this forum's history soon, so there;s no point to any of this now. I'm done. Its sad that BSN is closing down - I think this thread can claim to show some of the best and worst that it BSN had to offer. Its not going to be the same.

[vnth]

How is getting your family's title and estate, plus having enough money to allow your traumatized mother to have some measure of peace and comfort not a goal worth pursuing? As life goals go, its pretty much what the majority of the populace wants, isn't it? Its something which I think most of us would like to have, is it not? Or were you born with enough money to live comfortably? They are squatting in their uncle's house in a dangerous slum. And I think going from rags to riches counts as a decent day's work in anyone's book. There are people who work their whole lives and never raise themself out of poverty and never make enough to give their family the kind of lifestyle they would like them to enjoy. And here you are just dismissing it out of hand...

 

You and vnth are typical of those who parrot the 'Hawke just fails at everything', continually evading the fact that she has many sucesses (and that before you are allowed to just decide for yourself, the Warden has scripted failures in DAO, not to mention the ending where they march their new army out to Redcliffe on the outskirts of Ferelden and then have to march straight back to Denerim where they just came from, in time to see it in flames... and that's not a blunder?) Until you stop just hand waving those away with a 'Oh they don't count' then how am I supposed to take any of what you say seriously? When you are presenting as classic an example of the typical attittude to DA2? You just keep ignoring the facts! Is it wrong to want the facts straight, and tire of you parroting the same erroneous lines?

 

Hawke tells her mother she will make the name respected in the city, that it will mean something again. That is a goal, and it is achieved. Hawke agrees to hep the viscount deal with the problem as it escalates. And she does, even trying to warn him after Seamus is killed that he needs to pull himself together because the Arishok will act soon. But the Viscount is too traumatised to listen, and too weak to do anything anyway. Short of marching in there herself and beating all of them alone, what else could be done? Cullen has already told her that the Templars will not act unless the city is actively attacked, because until then it doesn't fall under the Templar's mandate to intervene.

 

 

But the fact is that DAO places *you* in charge of the litany, not Wynne. Because the game wants *you* to be the one who saves the mages, or lets them die. From a narrative standpoint, it makes no sense and is indicative of Bioware's need to have their main protagonists take over everyone else's roles, because they are the hero. Its artificial and is giving the player the decision when they would not have it. Or when taking the sacred ashes believing it will heal Arl Eamon (because if you didn't then as Sten points out, why would you go to all this trouble, when you could have spent the time on other needed quests?) you then decide to defile them... for the lulz? And not thinking that perhaps doing such a thing could compromise the healing power of the ashes you do have, as Andraste or The Maker are hardly likely to look with benevolence on you after that! It gives you more options, but at the risk of revealing its video gamish state taking me out of the narrative because options that this seem so utterly ridiculous.

 

'And a greater Grey Warden there has never been! Just last week I watched her selflessly sacrifice dozens of Elves in a Tevinter blood magic ritual that we accepted as a bribe to Raise. Her. Constitution!' (Raises arm in heroic pose).

 

'Hooray! Hooray! Praise our crazed, blood soaked Warden! Maker bless her! Hurrah!'

 

Its daft. You'd imagine that the ending slides would read 'The Warden stepped out to greet the crowd, and was instantly killed as some mages threw her a note wrapped around a fireball saying That's for deliberately not using the Litany when it was free to use and takes no time, you mage hating C**t'.

 

And yes, characters can have goals without being part of secret societies and having VIP - so tell that to Bioware! Because outside of DA2, they always do this! The spirit monks, the Spectres, the Grey Wardens, Cerberus, all copying the basic template they used with the Jedi in KOTOR. My argument has throughout this been that DA2 breaks that and several other moulds and ruts that they had fallen into. And that ME3 and DAI showed a depressing return to that.

 

You said Hawke was not relatable because she didn't leave the city when her family died.

 

 

But more than anyway, you should take a step back and really concentrate when I try to explain to you again that I like DAO and Bioware games in general. If I had no interest or placed no value in the way their games are made, then I would have never even made it to DA2. I like the way DAO and their other games present choices and agency, but I also felt (as many did, including Bioware themselves) that they were long overdue to try something else. And DA2 provided that for me with a character I felt closer to precisely because she shared real world concerns and had to keep striving in the face a world that can often feel like it beats down on you. The whole narrative was about finding a way to carry on in the face of adversity and great tragedy, as the events of the intro show with your family having to overcome losing their home and 1 of their own, Aveline losing Wesley and Flemeth finding a way to cheat her death in DAO.

 

i wasnt about to respond to this since you have offered no counterargument to me personally and said nothing more than what you have already said before, but your tone really annoys me so i will. it doesnt matter whether you'll read or respond to it. as a rule i dislike people who claim the moral high round but are full of mockery and passive-aggressiveness. you were the one who made a (flawed) argument about how da2 is more realistic, and then acted as if i attacked you for liking something.

 

it is confounding to me how you could have made a case that hawke wasnt a failure when everything you said so far suggests the opposite. da2 is literally the helplessness of dai's first arc being spread over an entire game. anything you could have come up with is invalidated by the simple fact that hawke is a failure by design. the devs didnt want another world threatening event so soon after as it would undermine the blight so they made da2 a slice of life story. they wanted to setup dai with the mage rebellion and you the protagonist so hawke was there and couldnt do anything about it. it could not have been more obvious that hawke was a patsy.

 

it is kind of funny how much you hate the protagonist assuming undue vitals roles and yet make no mention of the fact that hawke's wealth was literally handed to him, from the opportunity itself or the fact that a junior partner somehow received a significantly larger cut of the treasure, and by a "savvy businessman" no less.

 

your dao examples make no sense. i dont remember the lore of the litany but it was usable by nonmage. so why would it be necessary for a mage, whose participation of the fight was optional, to hold it? as for the ashes, it depends on how you assume it would work. maybe the ashes themselves are inherently potent. maybe they are a conduit of faith. the roleplaying potential here is both deep and subtle, which more than i can say for da2. the last one is completely nonsensical. the people who were there did hate you if they find such things objectionable, and you have the justification of doing it for the greater good of implicating loghain.

 

as for hawke's goal, i didnt want to respond to this earlier as i dont want to intrude into someone;s else conversation, but now have to because of how daft for argument is. what you said would make sense if the game had stopped at act 1 but it didnt. for the last two, and therefore the entire game, hawke did not have any objective. his goal certainly wasnt trying to stop open warfare in kirkwall, perhaps except in the sense that he lived there and didnt want trouble in general, because he didnt have any initiative toward completing that goal, especially in the last act. instead he did was what he had always been doing, which was taking odd jobs while sort of aligning himself with certain sides. you kept pointing out that that was somehow realistic, being an every man in such heated times. if only in real life there was someone like that, maybe a simple peasant girl who wished to save her kingdom, achieved that goal, and was made a saint. but nevermind, if such person exists, you would argue that she was handed undue importance or silver bullets or some such.

[Qis]

-snip tldr-

 

Even Joan of Arc have goal, she believe God send her messages and her mission is to save France from English invaders, and she did it. She's just a peasant girl, and she did greater than warrior/rogue/mage Hawke. of course she died on the stake later but still she's better than Hawke in many ways

 

i. As a peasant girl, she convince the royals to give her an army, she also convince the Church that she's a messenger of God, everyone believe her despite she's just a teenage peasant girl

ii. She did going into battle as an army general against English in war campaigns

iii. She beat the English

iv. She become a hero of France

v. She become a saint and a legend

 

France was saved because of her, which means her goal achieved, to save France as what she believed as God's will it through her.

 

Hawke achieve....nothing.